Jeremy Kaplan

Gabriela: Okay, so it's June 15th, 2023, and I am here in Sunset Park with Jeremy Kaplan. Thank you Jeremy. Thank you for having this conversation with me. So, we are going to start talking a little bit about yourself. So tell me, tell me where were you born and where is your family from? 
 
Jeremy: So I was born a little bit outside of Boston. My family on my dad's side, when they came, they're fourth generation in the United States, but when they came, they actually came to New York City from Russia. And it was around the 1880s or so. But they actually became very like, kind of quintessential Russian Jewish. They lived in the Lower East Side, had a bakery.

So when I was a kid, I would come to New York City and my dad would try to find places in the Lower East side where they lived. And then on my grandmother, on my dad's side, she was born in Brooklyn and then they moved out. So I was born in Boston, but I've been in New York City now for 17 years. So it was interesting because it felt like in some way, at least on my dad's side, that New York City was always something that was big. So it was a very quintessential, kind of immigrant story on my dad's side. And then on my mom's side, they're German and French. And my mom traveled all over because my grandfather was in the military. So she was all over the place, in the South and in different places. But my grandmother… my mom's mom actually lived with us in Boston and kind of took care of us.

So yeah and my family, my parents still live in Boston in the same house that I grew up in, which is nice to have that sort of stability. But yeah, they've been there for almost 50 years now. So when I moved to New York, I think it was always something that I wanted to do. I was interested in film and I was always thinking about either New York or LA and I had no connection to LA at all. I had a sense too that I was, I wanted to do documentary filmmaking and I knew a lot of documentary filmmaking was here in New York City. So when I moved, I actually came to do the Master's program at The New School in documentary filmmaking. So, yeah, I moved initially to Bensonhurst.

So, I wasn't too far from Sunset Park, and I spent a lot of time when I was in Bensonhurst in Sunset Park too. So I knew the community well and that was about over 17 years.
 
Gabriela: I imagine that having those experiences as a child, you know, coming to New York was something that you were always curious about. So tell me a little bit about that. 
 
Jeremy: Yeah, it's interesting 'cause as a kid, you don’t realize how much your perception of New York City is based so much around Manhattan. Because you're a tourist and stuff. But also I think that’s because sometimes when we’d come, we'd be trying to find things in the Lower East side where my relatives were… things of significance. 
 
Gabriela: When were these years, like when you used to come here?

Jeremy: Oh, this was when I was a kid. So in the late eighties and nineties. Sometimes we would come for Thanksgiving because they do that big Thanksgiving parade. Sometimes we’d come to New York City around Christmas time because you know they have all the lights and stuff. So, um, because Boston is so close to New York City, it was like, we'd come to New York maybe two or three times a year sometimes. It was always something that was familiar. But then the interesting thing when you actually live here is you realize how much the perception of what New York City was like, was based around Manhattan. And very little time in Brooklyn. And now, you know, living here, I've spent very little time in Manhattan.  And, and do so little of the things [in Manhattan]. And I actually have two kids now too.

So it is funny because the sort of touristy stuff of Manhattan, I have never even thought of. But then when you have kids, it sort of becomes more appealing to be like: “Oh, you know, they're interested in the Statue of Liberty.”  We look out from Sunset Park and we see the Statue of Liberty, and it's something fascinating… But I lived here for 17 years and I haven't gone to the Statue of Liberty Island… But as a kid, I went with my dad. We went to Ellis Island because he was very interested to find the information in the books about when my family came here and that kind of information that they have.
 
Gabriela: And I imagine that it was really interesting for you. You know, the Lower East Side at that time had a lot of things going on, and having like all those roots there, and then returning and becoming a filmmaker here in the city.

So you said that you eventually settled here in the neighborhood and that you were living close by. So why did you decide to settle in Sunset Park? 
 
Jeremy: Yeah. I think when I first moved to Bensonhurst… I loved that neighborhood too, and it had a similar feel to Sunset Park. At the time when I moved to Bensonhurst, 2006, 2007… It was kind of changing from the sort of Italian neighborhood that it was to being much more diverse. And some of those people were also people coming from Sunset Park as well. And Bensonhurst was still cheaper than Sunset Park.

So yeah, I would always pass through. I love the park. I was always drawn to it, the neighborhood and the community. Then also some of it was that I knew organizers here as well. I knew people like Dennis Flores, from El Grito, who we were doing [community] organizing around police abuse. So the first year that I moved to Sunset Park, that was a lot of the work that I got involved in, because there were a lot of street vendors being harassed by police. And then also hurricane Sandy as well… That kind of organizing and just seeing how close knit the community was.

I just also had a sense of, you know, when I first moved to New York City, uh, that a lot of people were like: “Oh, artists, you know, you're young you should live in Williamsburg.”

Like, that was the thing. Williamsburg was still just not affordable. And I also didn’t just want to fit in as, you know, [laughter] the stereotype of things. And I, it always felt like it was in the outer boroughs. And it's funny to even call it that cause I just feel like it's just these rich neighborhoods.

And in southern Brooklyn, to me it always felt like you could breathe a little bit more and there's just more sky and people know each other. In Bensonhurst, I knew all my neighbors. At first people were always kind of curious… There weren't a lot of young people moving in, and they didn't realize that I would be staying there for a while too. And then I think like with Sunset Park, the sense of

community and the sense that it is, you don't get it a lot in, in other places in New York City. It's very special in a lot of ways because of the fact it’s hard for me to walk down the street and not run into somebody that I know and have that sort of sense of familiarity with. And you have these people that you know because you go to the same coffee shop or you pass by. But this is also like knowing your neighbors. And especially having kids, the playground and Sunset Park itself is a place where you just see the same people and you have such a connection because the park is such a hub of where everybody is.

Gabriela: And how would you describe the neighborhood when you arrived?

Jeremy: So I think when I arrived, versus today… I used to live on 46th Street. I lived there for almost 10 years, and now I'm on 41st Street. And what I loved about 46th was that I was between Fourth [Avenue] and Fifth [Avenue]. And so it was, we were right close to Fifth Avenue. And the palpable sense on Fifth Avenue… You have so many Mexican or Central American restaurants that there is a sense of culture and, and, you know, pride… like, on our Block there was a Colombian faja store, and the owner, when it was a World Cup, everybody had a bunch of relatives all dressed up in Colombian uniforms watching the game. There's a sense of just, um, you know, pride and culture and identity.

Like the Puerto Rican Day parade on Fifth Avenue, too. I used to film that all the time, and that's 'cause I knew, um, Dennis from El Grito. So that was something that I did for a number of years. So it's interesting. The sense of why Sunset Park is such a special place is that in New York City, it's become tougher and tougher to find multicultural spaces where people don't feel like they have to fully assimilate… where people can truly be themselves, and yet also cherish each other's culture. And that's what's really sort of unique about Sunset Park, that you have such a mix of these cultures, and yet there's no sort of sense that there’s a dominant culture that people feel they need to assimilate to.

That's what I think is so fascinating too about South Brooklyn is that you have that. You know, walk over to Borough Park andyou see obviously the Orthodox culture is still very, you know, present and very strong. And then you also see a very rich, diverse Chinese culture too. So yeah, the fact that Sunset Park is like that and is still very affordable. 
 
Gabriela: This was like in 2007? 
 
Jeremy: Seven, yeah, 2007. Yeah. And so I think it's interesting because at the time of that.. I think people were aware and there was always a constant feeling of… you know every once in a while you’d see news articles of people talking: “Sunset Park is a great neighborhood” like, it's gonna be gentrified.

And I, I think it was really interesting to see that because in some way people were very hyper aware of it. So, even one restaurant opening up, people would be like: “uh-oh, what's going, what's gonna happen?” Because, you have this understanding of… a lot of the perception, a stereotype of gentrification is: “okay, it's a bar, it's a coffee shop”... it's a specific style and aesthetic that moves in, and then you sort of see: “oh, who are they catering to?”

And the really fascinating thing was seeing how in Sunset Park along Fifth Avenue, you know… I remember this one coffee shop moved in, and this was before the Industry City rezoning, um, maybe 2010, 11, 12… And you could tell who they were attracting, and it was like newer people

in the community who were white. And the owners didn't mean anything, but there were people who were actively sort of against it. And it sort of created this… it felt like it was its own enclosed kind of community. In the end the coffee shop actually didn't last that long because I think there were a lot of people who pushed back and there weren't enough people [customers]. And I think I even talked to some of the white families who had gone there and they had mentioned that it’s like: “yeah, it feels sort of weird. It feels like it's its own thing that's separate from the community.” So people kind of understand… And I think a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. You can kind of see some of the new businesses and stuff,

that at first you're kind of skeptical, [for example], a bar: “who are they gonna cater to?” And then you see sort of how they want to be involved in the community…We've seen that from some of the [new] Fifth Avenue businesses. You know, the way in which they try to invite in the existing communities and not sort of create their own. So I think that's what's interesting to see over the years. Yes. Prices have gone up and I'm fortunate enough that the two apartments I've lived in, in Sunset Park, have been rent stabilized. 
 
Gabriela: I wanted to ask you that. How would you describe the housing conditions back then, and what was your situation? 
 
Jeremy: Yeah, so how I really look at a lot of the, the gentrification is how much the housing stock changes.

And you know, cafes and bars and stuff have some sort of impact. They create I think the cultural shock of gentrification, but it's really in a lot of ways when the physical space changes a lot of times around buildings. That's why I think a lot of people realize, you know, [that’s why you have] the fights around rezonings. And seeing things like you mentioned, um, like the Park Slope rezoning on Fourth Avenue which used to be heavily Latino. And when you see that physical space change to 15 story luxury condos and luxury apartments that really marks a difference and a change in the face of what the neighborhood is like.

So the housing stock really in the, the 12 years or that I've seen sort of Sunset Park, or the 17 years

since I've lived in New York hasn't necessarily changed that much there. There are pockets here and there. But you know, a lot of the brownstone housing has relatively stayed the same. But you see with gentrification is that instead of it being three families, it starts to be… an LLC buying it. And then, you know, you start to see more wealthier people buy one brownstone and suddenly it becomes a house for one family instead of three or even four sometimes. Or you start to see what were affordable apartments in a brownstone become unaffordable because the brownstone sold for a million, $2 million, and now they're charging $3,500 per apartment when for a

while you used to be able to… you know, when I moved, I [had been] wanting to look at and stay in a brownstone. Especially 'cause at the time we had a baby, so it was like a sense of, you know, having some outdoor space, and the possibility that brownstones sometimes have a garden or a porch or something. But the sense that like these brownstones, you could see the prices that a two bedroom, you know, were expensive but still reasonable for a lot of people where  it wouldn't be over $2000 and $2,200 would be very expensive for one.

And then now all of a sudden you see what they're trying to do, especially like during the pandemic

and like a year and a half, two years after it and, um, to, to now and, and what people are trying to charge. And that's where, you know, you really see that sense of frustration because [they’re] the same apartments. Not much has changed with them. And then suddenly the prices, what they're trying to get… You know, I hope that they don't get these prices suddenly: “Oh, $3000, $3,500” and that.

I think for a lot of the new immigrant families to which Sunset Park has been such a hub for various cultures, um, that price point just puts people out of it, it's impossible. And so you really can only attract professional, younger people… and maybe they only stay there for a year or two, because even that's too unaffordable. Especially because those units are not stabilized. Yeah.

The brownstones. So yeah, I think what's so interesting and appealing about Sunset Park, and what makes it part of the sense of community is that we have some larger buildings, but the density is human scale. 
 
Gabriela: Yeah. But you told me that  you lived rent stabilized.
 
Jeremy: Yeah. Rent stabilized.
 
Gabriela: So what is your relationship with the, with the landlord or the owner? Have you seen shifts?
 
Jeremy: Yeah. So the interesting thing is the building that I lived in on 46th Street was a five story building. So it was kind of a bigger building. We had incredible neighbors. It was like a great community. A lot of people in the building had been there for a long time. The landlord was pretty absentee. It was a corporate landlord.

That's the thing is that a lot of times in Sunset Park, the bigger buildings now are getting bought out by corporations becausethey’re cheap, uh, and a lot of them are rent stabilized. So they were looking at these buildings as an opportunity to hopefully destabilize people. Luckily the two buildings that I've lived in Sunset Park that have been stabilized… There are, I think, two apartments that have been destabilized out of the 40 or so apartments. So that was really good to see because in a lot of ways that's kind of the worst case scenario. Seeing these larger buildings, which should be affordable, with more density, sort of lose their stabilization. Um, and so anyways, like the community that we had in that building was really great.

And actually, we knew pretty much everybody in the neighborhood. We had our first child who's now five and a half there at that building, and we were on a fourth floor walk up, and that's kind of why we moved, because it got to be a little much for carrying a baby up four flights of stairs all the time. But our neighbors were so sweet. Everybody loved our child, Julian, and he was like the mascot of the building. Every time we'd walk down the stairs, somebody would say hello to him. I think what was interesting was that the newer people ended up staying for a while. So most people were there, uh… the long-term people who were there for 40, 50 years. You know, we were there for 10 years and other people who had just moved in stayed for five plus years or more.

So that's where you, where you really see the, how community gets built, um, and then the way in which you look out for each other. So when the pandemic happened, the building went on a run strike, and it was actually fairly easy to organize because we knew each other. And so as soon as we started talking about what predicaments people were in, some of the people who had kids like us were like: “oh, we're, we're gonna have to move out” or “we're moving to stay with parents and we're not sure if we can afford paying the rent”. And so they were like “we might be fine with going on Rent Strike”. And then they had other people who were unemployed who lost their jobs. Um, and so because of that close-knit nature it was really easy to kind of organize and people had trust. And there was definitely

pushback from the landlord, because I think he had spent a lot of time just sort of coasting and expecting people to pay their checks and not to do very little. And the building's conditions were fine. I think mainly because it was a hundred year old building that was beautifully built at the time. It wasn't a co-op. I actually live in one of the co-op buildings on Seventh Avenue, but it's a rental. But it is the same kind of craftsmanship: the way in which so many of these buildings in Sunset Park were built by working class people for themselves. So, the fact that the building was done so nicely, like a hundred years ago, kind of continues even when these landlords do not

maintain it that well, so they don't have to do that much.
 
Gabriela: But tell me a little bit more about this strike. What was the outcome? Who was at the center of this? 
 
Jeremy: So we actually reached out to Marcella to help  organize it. Especially because we had to do our meetings in Spanish and English. For half of the tenants Spanish was their primary language, and that it would've been uncomfortable in meetings to not have at least interpretation or [even] some of the meetings in Spanish primarily.
 
Gabriela: You mean Marcela Mitaynes?
 
Jeremy: Yeah. So Marcela has been a good friend of mine for a while, and I've organized with her. And when this was happeningshe was trying to organize several different buildings that she knew people were behind on rent. And I said: “you know, it would be super helpful for you to help

in these meetings to explain sort of like what a rent strike is… what people's rights are… what's happening…” And this was right at the time where she had just gotten elected… Actually, she wasn't in office yet, but she was helping us sort of through that. 
 
Gabriela: What, what year was this? 
 
Jeremy: This was 2020. Yeah, 20. So right at the first couple months of the pandemic. And with the rent strike, we had about half of the building on board, and then we had some other tenants who would come to the meetings. They weren't on the rent strike because their rent was so low and they were retired. But they still wanted repairs… So we kind of had the balance of trying to organize people to push the landlord. And these were some of the older tenants, where their rent was between

$600, $800, cause they’d been there for so long. And the landlord had been neglecting [them], as they usually do for those types ofsituations. And they at a certain point had gotten kind of scared of talking to the landlord because it was always like: “well, my rent's so low, I don't want to push back.” And then you have to sort of tell people: “well, we have all these rights. You don't lose those rights if you ask for repairs”. But there's a very common perception, which is true, that the landlord can push back against you. And then there's a concern that: “they’ll try to take away my rights” and what not…But they kind of know and understand, because… The interesting thing was also why it was great that Marcela helped us organize the meetings and went through people's tenants rights, was that she had organized in the building like maybe

10 or 15 years before. So there were older tenants who already had a relationship with her, and they called her Marcelita because she was very young at the time. Yeah.
 
Gabriela: Is this the same building that had a rent strike during Occupy Sandy? Or not?
 
Jeremy: So it's a different building, but actually the same block. And I had actually organized in that building too.
 
Gabriela: Because there were like three buildings…
 
Jeremy: Yes. The three buildings. So they're up the block from us. And we're down past between Fourth [Avenue] and Fifth [Avenue], and they are between Fifth [Avenue] and Sixth [Avenue] and those buildings I know well too because I had helped Marcela and Aura… I did some videos and stuff, for some of the tenants and [recorded] like press conferences and actions they'ddone. So yeah, I'm aware of that building. And yes, they had a rent strike, so, but we were sort of separate,

but also, because of Aura, Neighbors Helping Neighbors, and Marcella had gone to meetings where I know some of the other heads of those tenant associations, we kind of had communication and stuff. But we never really… I wish we kind of did more to tie in all the people who were on Rent Strike and to connect those things. And there were various actions here and therethroughout the pandemic, like marches and stuff. But trying to think about how to organize together across buildings is a really powerful thing. And yet I think there was more to be done in some way. 
 
Gabriela: So this was like in… how many people live in that building? 
 
Jeremy: So it was a 20 unit building. About 20 units, yeah. There was a fair amount of families, some people lived by themselves, so I would say about, you know, 50, 60 people or so in the building.

Gabriela: So then you went on the rent strike because of the poor conditions of the apartments? And then what happened? You know, like, did you win something? 
 
Jeremy: Yeah. So, the rent strike lasted for about, I would say about five or six months. So when we pushed back on the landlord, the interesting thing was he didn't really… Because he was so absentee, he didn't… You know, he got a little hostile… But there wasn't any sort of harassment because he was rarely at the building, but I think what he was trying to do was sort of wait out and see what happens. Um, and so as the months went on, some people got nervous about being behind so much because at a certain point people were behind, you know, $20,000 in rent.

So, the landlord wasn't necessarily pressuring them, but the general sense of like, is anything gonna happen? And what was sort of frustrating was that you wanted to see more action… Like, you had this huge groundswell of tenants who are finally like, claiming their power. And this is a moment where it's like: “okay, so many people cannot afford” And like, we should have so much power… And then that kind of got diffused. In some way it was the emergency rental money that came in. The EOP [Executive Office of the President] money was very helpful, but it also kind of diffused the organizing. And that was really tricky because it helped people… So there were several people in our building that got it, and we sort of, we helped a few people fill out the forms.

But so what happened was we kind of negotiated, some people got ERAP [Emergency Rental Protection Money]

money, and that sort of changed their sense of: “oh well, I'm not on rent strike anymore”.And then also, um, you know, some people negotiated, because they got tired and nervous. The people who had moved away to live with their family then said: “you know, we can't keep doing this, so we're gonna, we're gonna stay here. So you know, we're not paying any rent”. So they negotiated with the landlord. So in the end, I think what was interesting was that a lot of people were able to get rent taken off from the landlord and negotiate, but it wasn't as collective of a thing. A lot of people sort of negotiated on their own. But because there was a general rent strike, I think that did help. So yeah, I mean, I think it was really

helpful because it did give relief for a lot of people. I know we got a couple months rent covered, so it was like the worst months of the pandemic at the beginning. We didn't pay rent for [those months] and settled that. Other people had gotten ERAP money… So yeah, there was a way in which it was successful. I think it was also successful too, because some of the people who went on Rent Strike weren't the most political, and they became, I feel like, more radicalized, and paid more attention to local politics and understanding how the political system was working in New York City. ‘Cause they kept being like: “I don't understand why we have all these Democrats, a Democratic mayor… Why aren't these people standing up for tenants?”

And realizing just the difference of what they say versus actually what they do and how much they're beholden still to Real Estate and to, you know, capital.

So that was kind of the best thing actually about the rent strike besides people getting some relief from it. It got a lot of people much more attuned to local politics in our building who weren't necessarily attuned to it. And realizing that there's a big difference between somebody like Marcela who comes from the grassroots, who's organized, [who] is a tenant, [who] is somebody who's been evicted, versus somebody who says they're progressive, and then at the end of the day, they don’t have the life experience or they're not amongst people who are dealing with those struggles to really feel it and to have enough fortitude

to stand up to the money, to stand up to the influence and the power. To really be like: “oh, I'm gonna go to Albany” or “I'm gonna go to city council, fight the mayor, fight the governor on these issues and speak out” when at the end of the day it's gonna get you shunned as a politician, or you're gonna face lots of Real Estate money advertising against you and political campaigns. And that's what we saw… you see real estate flyers against Marcela and all this stuff that's really absurd. 
 
Gabriela: I know that she has done amazing work and I guess she was like an inspiration during these two strikes for you. So it's very interesting that you came because you knew Dennis Flores… what he was doing.

And then you were involved somehow in this rental strike that you made with your neighborsin your own building. But I know that you have been involved in larger organizing efforts. So can you tell me a little bit about your start becoming more political here… more connected.
 
Jeremy: I think what was interesting was that I always felt like I cared a lot about politics. But the interesting thing was that when I first came to New York City, I was more involved in what was really national politics. And, you know, campaigns that are mainly national ones, presidential or Senate races, Congress and stuff like that.

And then you start to see, especially in New York City, the places in which power really is and where the impact is. And you realize how much that is local politics. And so it was in Sunset Park when I first moved here [I started] seeing that importance and seeing that there's such a strong base of local organizations that are doing a variety of things that have quite a lot of say in the community. And it's because they have been very smart and very savvy in building up their power and their community base. [At]the beginning of when I moved to Sunset Park, I would just go to UPROSE events, and UPROSE was a very important organization in Sunset Park for decades. And so I would go to the meetings because there was so much that locally was going on that it connected me to.

And through UPROSE… they had sort of a side project that was called Protect Our Working Waterfront. And that was the first time that I heard about Industry City. I sort of knew about the buildings, but I didn't know the full perspective of it. And this was like 2012 or 13. There were rumors of the rezoning, but there was not a basis for the rezoning yet, or it hadn't been sort of official. So at UPROSE…You know I met Marcela there, I met Antoinette there… a number of other organizers. So I think that was really interesting because in a way, that initial space of Protect our Working Waterfront group that was fighting for, you know, to keep the Sunset Park waterfront for [the] working class.

And to have a green climate focus, and thinking about it as climate jobs, especially in a way in which at that time… I feel like people were talking about sort of green jobs, but it wasn't very tangible.

And then UPROSE had quite a vision that was like: “Look, this is already an existing industrial waterfront. There's already stuff going on here that actually fits into this kind of new green economy. And some of it is actually just fostering it, and some of it is creating this new stuff”, but it's also making sure that, you know, this [new] Industry City vision that was just beginning to come into focus doesn't stomp that out, and that it gives space…

That they don't take so much power on the waterfront. That they don’t control and dictate what goes on in the waterfront. 
 
Gabriela: Was this group [Protect our Working Waterfront] made up of different organizations or was it more like individuals? 
 
Jeremy: So that was the really interesting thing because when it first started, it had some buy-in from various different groups, but on a weekly level, on the grassroots, it was a lot of individuals from the community. And sometimes for bigger actions, some of these groups would sort of join. And I think UPROSE did a really good job of trying to bring in various groups from the climate justice movement, but also trying to bring in labor that was starting to be more progressive around green jobs. But it was mainly at these meetings,

mostly people in the community who are organizers who cared. As the Industry City Rezoning started to become an actual thing, and there was a proposal and the ULURP (Uniform Land Use Review Procedure) hadn’t started yet, the land use process hadn't started… That was the point within that group of people… I think Marcela, Antoinette, Rodrigo, Genesis, Jorge, and a few others… there was a sense that we needed to be as proactive as possible to bring in as many [organizations] and as many grassroots groups [as possible].

And so it was interesting 'cause there was a little bit of tension and friction. Because it's tough as a nonprofit for UPROSE where they have a very specific vision.

You know, our sense was that we needed to bring in as many people as possible. And sometimes that meant too, bringing in some people that we had maybe disagreements with, but we would agree on the rezoning. Also as a non profit, there are different tactics and strategies that you can't necessarily do, or stances that you can take in some way. So the sort of Protect Sunset Park Coalition kind of came out around this feeling of a need to to open it up to more people in the community.

And so from that, it was like having meetings where, and part of it was we drove… We had a petition, and the petition was really about having conversations with our neighbors

and building awareness about the rezoning. So [it] was really helpful to gather as many organizations and gather as many neighbors. So we collected over 5,000 signatures and we’d go to block parties, people would set up in the park, we'd go to events, parades, festivals and stuff, and talk with people. And that was so effective in getting people aware about what the rezoning was.Then what was very helpful too was that along the way, UPROSE was doing events as well to teach people about what ULURP was. And that was very helpful to have UPROSE as an institution to provide that kind of training and giving people a sense of like: “this is the nitty gritty, this is how the ULURP process works, this is how much time you have."

Gabriela: And the process was ongoing at that time?
 
Jeremy: Yes. So, the ULURP hadn't started yet. The interesting thing was that because this was such a major rezoning there was kind of a special nature to how it was handled. So the community board knew there was pressure put on the community board, [they knew] that they had to do more outreach, [then] Industry City tried to do more outreach themselves because they knew that they were in sort of a PR battle. They knew the importance of winning over as much community support as possible, and they did everything that they could to have the perception of community support. While we had our petition, Industry City actually paidcanvassers to go out, and I saw these canvassers, I talked with them… one of them came to my door. None of them lived in the community, and I don't blame them. They were just getting paid 15, $20 an hour.

But they had cards that asked to “sign this”. And I [asked]: “what am I signing?” They said: “oh, do you support jobs in the community?” And there was no mention of the rezoning. And so I would grab their literature and, and then sort of like start to tell people. Like, “this is what we have to refute because Industry City is presenting it as: do you want opportunities and jobs in your community? instead of [the Rezoning]”. And then our job on the other side was to tell people really what the Rezoning actually was. And so when you had those conversations with neighbors individually, people would say: “this doesn't seem like it's for the community.” And it seemed obvious from us organizers, but it was so important to go one-on-one and talk with people about it.
 

For years you were seeing like Facebook ads, Instagram ads from Industry City, they would spend like $60,000 a month on ads. And people would say this all the time: “Oh, I saw this ad from Industry City. Oh, I know about this.” They didn't really know what the rezoning entailed, but they would just hear like: “Oh yeah, they're doing something down there.” So that was always part of the biggest things that we had todo… fight against the created perception of Industry City. To be clear, Industry City became 5 or 6 billion dollar corporations, basically Real Estate and Venture Capital funds. That's why the project was so massive. They kept adding these billion dollar companies. So, you know, the first started out with Jamestown,

and that's who we first were starting to protest, when Jamestown first bought those buildings. The first couple protests that we did were some events that were very clearly trying to appeal to a gentrification of Sunset Park and to create a culture of Sunset Park as a tourist destination, as a new Chelsea market.

And we knew that Jamestown was involved with Chelsea Market, and then you looked at what else they had worked on, and you've seen this whole process in Atlanta and San Francisco. They had built these self-contained ecosystems that were there to take advantage of this whole process of gentrification. I've read an interview from the CEO [Chief Executive Officer] of Jamestown who even talked about it, bragged to like [his] Real Estate,

friends at a conference that their process is basically taking in cultural cachet, taking in art… food...That whole sense of like, [building] a brand and identity that was around culture that people want to be associated with. And to reclaim these Industrial Spaces. Reclaim 'em. But it really was to get this sort of appeal and branding that was Chelsea Market, and that's what they wanted to do with Industry City. To create this Food Court and there's all this art over the place. There's like graffiti on the walls and murals and all this really cool stuff, and there's art exhibits and stuff. So that from, you know, outside perspective, if you're not looking at the process of, you know, what gentrification is, you're like: “oh, well it's interesting. They're bringing more art

and they're saying they're bringing more public space. That was one of their appeals, because you have these spaces, the courtyards in between the buildings that people go to to see these art installations or these murals. And then you realize when you look at their model, that it’s all a part of a process to get to something else that was much different, to get to a space where basically they would build out these self-contained ecosystems.

You have major corporations that have businesses there, luxury residentials there. So they become these all encompassing kind of workplace spaces that essentially is a great for a real estate company because you don't even have to leave Industry City.

And that was kind of the feel… you could tell that's what they're trying to create. They just didn't have the housing. So that was one of the key things about the Rezoning, they wanted to build two hotels, and you thought that the hotels are clearly just catering towards tourists. But then you thought, well, if the hotels don't work, then they have these buildings that are built that could be for housing, or whether if the hotels were basically just kind of a temporary thing to then have them convert some of that space to luxury housing. And then they have this sort of whole ecosystem that they built stores and restaurants and everything to cater to the people who live there who don't even have to live in Sunset Park. And then, they call it something separate, they call it Industry City.

And you even start to see people sort of buy into that perception of it. You would hear on the news… People would talk about traffic on the B, Q, and E [trains] and they’d say: “near Industry City”, they wouldn't even refer to it as Sunset Park. And that was like in 2015, 16, 17. And I was like: “this is exactly what Jamestown and those investors want”, that it is a separate world that has a different identity from Sunset Park. And we knew that if it got to that point, that changes fundamentally everything else in Sunset Park. The influence that has, because you have billions of billions of dollars put into this investment that they're gonna want to change stuff around them beyond just the footprint that they have. And that's such a massive footprint to begin with. Like, that was the largest private rezoning at the time, because it's, you know,

basically 12 blocks, and they were gonna add three buildings, but one of the buildings is an entire block long, so these are massive buildings. It was adding a million square feet. To do that in New York City is just huge. And then to do it in a neighborhood like Sunset Park, where in some ways the amount of change hasn't been that drastic.

We haven't seen the drastic sort of changes like in Williamsburg, which obviously was from a rezoning of Greenpoint from like 2005, 2006. You know, people that I knew who lived in Williamsburg during that time just said, you had the Waterfront Williamsburg,

which was its own community, separate from the more diverse neighborhood [named] Williamsburg. And you know, who was moving in and the way in which people would move in… a lot of times people were very temporary in those bigger buildings, whether it was because of expenses or whatever it was.  
 
Gabriela: Yeah. But it was kind of similar. I mean, the rezoning, all of the vacant spaces that are likein the waterfront. So then there were these two narratives, like the narratives coming from Industry City, you know, and all the advertisements. I watched some of those videos. 
 
Jeremy: Yeah. 
 
Gabriela: And are you meeting, like, on a weekly basis or a monthly basis? And, if you can talk a little bit about the marches

or the turning point that [made you go] like: “okay, we need to take action”. 
 
Jeremy: Yeah, I think what was really interesting and what was special about a lot of people who were in the Protect Sunset Park group was the sense of building a campaign out and what that requires and, we were always in the moment, but also trying to have a bigger picture. And that's something that I think is really important for organizing around a campaign like that: thinking about the whole large process, but then doing all the stuff… we really did a lot on power mapping. Because we had a lot of people who were seasoned organizers who had understood how rezonings work and understood how different campaigns have worked, we knew basically where the pressure points were, who were the people that we needed to influence and change.

And especially with rezoning, the city council members have so much power. The way in which Menchaca handled it put even more power in his hands because he started to set up this whole alternative process of a community benefits agreement  And that his alternative was to say instead of: “I'm going to vote a no to industry City, but I have this other plan that will let them do the rezoning”.  And so that was really interesting for us because we had kind of multiple tracks of constantly trying to figure out sort of how to message and how to organize, what kind of actions. But we tried to lay it out because we had people who were experienced. We tried to lay out sort of an idea

that: “we need to stay focused on these targets”. 
 
And that there's various things that were important. Like, we knew that a community board doesn't have that much actual power, but there's a lot of like figurative, metaphorical power because Industry City can say: “Oh, the community supports us. The community board is on board with this”. And especially this rezoning, it was very clear that we had some people who were in Protect Sunset Park, who were actually part of the community board. Some of us tried to get on, [but] we weren't allowed on because I think Carlos Menchaca knew where we would stand. You know, we had like almost 10, 15 people apply because we're like: “you could be a vote in this and you could sway this.” And so it was almost like: can we take over the vote to influence that? Um, but that was, that was a key thing.

Gabriela: Who from the community board was kind of on your side or was an ally? 
 
Jeremy: Yeah. Well, Marcela was on the community board, and then you had some interesting people who kind of were wavering and kind of in the middle who ended up coming over to our side. So that was, Antoinette was on the community board at the time, [she] was just new to it. Genesis was on the community board. And they were obviously seen as the more radical and faced a lot of pushback through some of these community board meetings. I was there at a lot of them, even though I wasn't on the community board. You could see there were a handful of people within the community board who Industry City had spent a lot of time trying to win over their opinion. So they had been invited to special events

and, and then there were actually a couple people who were literally having conversations before the meeting with Industry City representatives, getting talking points. There was somebody who came with edits. They [were] trying to put together the community board recommendations, and at this meeting, there was somebody who was sitting there with the Industry City representative going through the edits with them, changing things based on what Industry City wanted. 
  
And so it was like, this is how much they value this sort of purely figurative [support]. You know, it meant so much to be able forthem to say… and I think it meant a lot for Carlos Menchaca. And that was kind of the thing. We knew at the end of the day that it was like, you know, Carlos could kill it

but his new plan around having a CBA [Community Benefits Agreement]... he tried to basically satisfy both sides and, and made it seem like saying “No” to the rezoning was actually saying “No” to all that the power that the community could have. And how we shifted sort of the messaging was that, we would go disrupt the community benefits agreements, but also talk about how who was involved and at the table was not representative of the community. And it scared people away. And the Community Benefit Agreement group got shrunk and became much smaller because people realized… they [people] thought if Carlos Menchaca, the council member was backing it, that they would get a lot of support. They did not get a lot of support. And a lot of people in the community started to see that.

And we actually did a whole meeting around this. I think it was one of the best meetings that Protect Sunset Park did with a number of other groups at Trinity Church where we went over what a CBA was, and we had maybe like 150 people in the basement of the church. And there were breakout groups that were really exciting because we went over what a CBA was, and then people broke out into various groups. Like there was an action group planning around how do we message, how do we actaround this? And then there was a group that people were just: “we want to plan a march”. And we're like: “you go plan that March”. And that was part of the organizing, I think that when [dealing with] a large coalition sometimes you have those tensions, but then also, I think the people within the core of Protect Sunset Park… We were comfortable enough to be like: “all right, these people,

want to do a march. All right, let them plan the march and let that be the most effective march that you can do.” There are many strategies, and there's not gonna be one thing that is the most effective. So it's really important to take a multitude of perspectives and strategies. And I think what was interesting was Jorge [Muñiz-Reyes], Rodrigo [Camarena], and a few other people had a very big picture… Jorge, his expertise was on press, media, [that] kind of stuff. That's what he does as his job. And you know, a major part of this was that Industry City was spending so much money buying news stories. Yeah. Buying social media ads. So, press was such a big thing.

And you could see like as the rezoning started to come up, when they're trying to start it, op-eds from all over the place… people supporting it… Getting politicians from the Bronx, [like] Richie Torres to support this. We were like: “why does Richie Torres have any say in Sunset Park?” It was because whatever politician was friendly to developers and to this group of developers… They're six major corporations, some of the largest Real Estate in New York City. So they have reach in all [these] different places. So it was amazing to sort of see that kind of battle, how much in the press we had to fight. And then we realized we weren't gonna win all the time in the press because they had so much power and influence,

but we could try to shape as much as possible. So people like Jorge did a lot of relationships, trying to cultivate with journalists who are more sympathetic towards us and being like, anytime there was an action, anytime there was an event, Jorge and a few other people would workshop a press release… And so I think it frustrated a lot of Industry City because there would always be a quote from somebody in the community. And so even that was like a small victory. Because, you know, the way journalism is now, it's like: “oh, we have to be even sided”. But the story would be very much leaning towards Industry City, but we'd still be able to get one quote towards the end that would have something that would speak a little bit of truth about the community. So there was always a way…

The way I thought about was that we didn't see any power in any of these spheres. And that the spheres of influence that were very important, that they thought they could dominate on, like Media and PR [Public Relations]... we didn't necessarily win that, but we didn't lose badly. And it was, how to keep the ability to see the community's perspective and that voice. Also Social Media was such a big thing for us too. It was like, we're not gonna win local PR and Media level, and op-eds and things like that. Although people did write op-eds, Mexicanos Unidos had a great op-ed against the rezoning and city limits. Rodrigo wrote a op-ed in the Daily News. So we got some

of these sort of small victories. But with social media, I think what was really interesting was that it galvanized. That gained more and more people. 
 
Gabriela: Because also you have people from other communities and other neighborhoods joining in some of the marches. 
 
Jeremy: Yeah. So that was actually one of my favorite actions that we did. I think it was Labor Day, it was in September. And we knew the rezoning was about to be starting back up. And at that point now, what was interesting was Menchaca was now saying that he was a “No” vote on the rezoning, but there was a concern that basically the rest of the city council members would override him. 'cause all of a sudden, Richie Torres and a few other council members were saying: “I'm still gonna vote “Yes” for this”.  And so we thought: “wow, Industry City has enough influence and power to try to influence all these other council members”. And, um, and so we did,

that's when we looked at it and we're like, we need to do a tactic to bring people from the March to get attention. And we also highlighted that Cory Johnson was the speaker at the time. And so we're like: “Cory Johnson will end up, in some way or another, [having] a lot of influence on this”. If this issue becomes too hot for him, we were worried that basically he would ignore Menchaca and he would say: “Hey, you know what? I will take this to a vote because I won't get any pushback. 'cause I don't represent Sunset Park. I can say, this is what the pitch was from Industry City to these politicians”. You can say that you created a thousand jobs. They made up these numbers like job creation [was] gonna be amazing. And so, we're in the middle of the pandemic, and so people are unemployed. So you're saying: “oh, the Industry City rezoning is gonna create 10,000 jobs”. So the council members can say:

“well, I greenlit the rezoning to create these jobs”. Yeah. And that was their sort of last pitch, the last ditch effort.

So that march…There were a number of rezonings. And we had been helping out and in communication… There was a citywide group of organizations that had been fighting rezonings and they're meeting every two weeks. And that's where we were able to sort of reach out to those people and be like: “we want to do this big march that is gonna highlight all these rezonings. And we're talking about the Industry City rezoning, because it's coming up, but we also want you to highlight your rezoning 'cause we're gonna be protesting Cory Johnson”. And we went to Cory Johnson's house. We started at Chelsea Market because of Jamestown, and Chelsea Market is not that far from Cory Johnson's house. And so we blocked… we had, I don't know, a couple hundred people

and various groups. We actually had a lot of people from Bronx, Inwood. The Inwood rezoning was still up in the air.
 
Gabriela: What is the name of this organization that was kind of a city wide coalition?
 
Jeremy: Yeah. So they still meet, just not as much. It was called the Citywide… I'm trying to think of the exact name. But it came about basically right at that time in the beginning of the pandemic, because the rezonings that were going on… It was the Gowanus rezoning, the Governor's Island rezoning, Inwood rezoning was still up in the air because the judge had overturned it and then it kept going back and forth in courts… The Bushwick rezoning, the Reynoso one… Um, what else was there? There werea couple Bronx Rezonings… I'm trying to think if there's anything else. Oh, some of the Lower East Side.

So like the towers in Chinatown, the Two Bridges. That rezoning. We knew a number of people and we had some connections to Chinatown groups in Manhattan. One of our main organizers for the Chinese community here in Sunset Park was also very connected to people who organized in Chinatown and Manhattan. So they came out. So it was like that kind of group of, of various different rezonings. 
 
Gabriela: But that march that you mentioned in the Chelsea Market was separate. Because I remember there was like a very big march here in Sunset Park. I remember seeing different groups, not only from the community.
 
Jeremy: Oh, I think I know what you're talking [about]. You're talking about the one in 2017 that was… it was BAN: Brooklyn Anti-Gentrification Network. 
 
Gabriela: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 
 
Jeremy: Do you remember that one? That one was beautiful too.

Gabriela: But this was way before.
 
Jeremy: Yeah, the rezoning… It was still going, but it hadn't been initiated yet, but we already were protesting it. The really interesting thing was… and BAN was a great organization. And sadly, it doesn't meet anymore, but it was a coalition of Brooklyn groups that were fighting basically gentrification. And UPROSE was a part of it. That's how I was initially connected to BAN. And then I would go to the BAN meetings. So BAN every year for I'd say four or five years, did a large march that connected all the different rezoning struggles. And those marches were fantastic. And it was like all day long, you know, you'd march for like 10 miles. It was a very epic, but beautiful way of sort of stringing it together. 

And some people would show up for a few communities and you’d march for like three, four hours. But it was great because you go through all these different communities kind of creating awareness of people. And then at each spot various groups would come and speak about their struggle and their fight. That was the 2017 one, they did one that ended in Sunset Park which was really great because they really focused on the Industry City battle. So I remember I started at Barclays and we marched down from Barclays [Center], but I think their whole thing started up in Williamsburg. So there were a couple of marches like that. So that was kind of the benefit that I think a lot of Sunset Park organizers had. That before rezoning started, various citywide or Brooklyn based organizations were aware that we were organized

and building and asking for help, and fighting this. And UPROSE did a really big climate action. I think it was 2000… I think it was 2019. It was on Earth Day. And they brought a bunch of organizations in the climate justice world to go against Industry City.
  
Gabriela: That is the one that I was mentioning because I remember that it was about climate change.
 
Jeremy: Yeah. And the interesting thing was actually that at the end of that too, at Industry City, one of the main organizers from BAN actually spoke at that march. So there was always a lot of interconnectedness in those things. But yeah, that was a really big one too. And I remember that it ended up in Sunset Park too.
 
Gabriela: Well, tell me a little bit about how was your relationship with Carlos Menchaca? Like the relationship of the group? Will he go to your meeting or…
 
Jeremy: Oh, no, no, no, no.
 
Gabriela: The part of the community benefit agreement. Can you say something [about that]?. 
 
Jeremy: Yeah. So I would say this… I think what's interesting is that some people in the coalition had a friendly relationship or,you know, friendship with Carlos Menchaca. And sometimes, we would sort of take advantage of that. And then, for other people… I would say, at least for me, Carlos had seen that I'd done a lot of work in the community. So I think he tried to reach out and tried to be friendly.  And then I think the way that his personality works… I don't think he likes… he doesn't like conflict. And so when there was sort of disagreements and things like that, he didn't like to be protested or sort of antagonized.

And so once that happened, you could tell that he had this mentality that he kind of shunned you. And for our group, he was always a target. But the interesting thing was always figuring out how to deal with him, how to turn him… and it changed a lot over time. Because sometimes, at the beginning, we weren't as antagonistic against him. And then sometimes it was… he would say for a while: “oh, I'm gonna say no to this.” And we're like: “Okay, great. Well please, please say no now and be more vocal about it”.And, then we would see that behind the scenes he was formulating and trying to put together a group of people for the community benefits agreement. And so that's where we felt the need to then be a bit

more antagonistic and said: “look, Carlos is being disingenuous by saying that he's a no”.  And I think that perception shattered the way he was trying to play both sides by saying: “oh, I'm a no, but I'm gonna do this agreement. And this agreement gives the community more power”. That all shattered at his meeting that he held in 2019, where he unveiled this plan. And he kept saying to people: “I will have this big meeting and I will say what the plan is and what we want to do”. And at that hearing there werehundreds of people at the Sunset Park High School. And he had this presentation all laid out, that was not a conversation. That was him already [had] sort of devised how he was gonna do this and that the CBA was the way.

And what really alienated people was that it was very clear that he had been having these conversations for a while. And the driver of this was not Carlos Menchaca, or not the community, but Industry City. And that so many of the agreements he unveiled at this hearing were actually stuff that Industry City took… Basically, they [Industry City] looked at the community and community organizations and they took pieces of stuff and ideas that people had and said: “oh, we could do this.” So they, you know, they deceptively said: “Oh, we could do Solar Panels for UPROSE”. And Elizabeth [Yeampierre, UPROSE representative] was at the meeting. She was like: “You are a liar. We never had conversations”. But they did that to set it up like: “Oh, we're trying to appease these organizations and we're trying to say that we've listened to you”. But there's no actual conversation.

Elizabeth had been entirely against the rezoning. And then all of a sudden at this hearing Menchaca is saying: “Well, we could have these community agreements and we could get solar panels like UPROSE wants”. And then all of a sudden Elizabeth is looking like “we [UPROSE] don't support this”. So she literally gets up and yells: “You lied to us”. And so that was, to me, a major turning point where there was a lot of people in there who were not necessarily against the rezoning, but then saw how angry people were at being, sort of talked down to, patronized… and then also being sort of used and that there were multiple sort of organizations that were being spoken for and being used to say: “Oh, you should support this because we can give you something”. And basically Carlos spent 40 minutes talking to the community

and people were like: “This is a hearing. We want to have our say”.

And then there was a chant that broke out for 5, 10 minutes, and Carlos just left. And I think that was indicative of, instead of taking the heat and the criticism, he just walked out because he thought that people were gonna be: “oh, we love this plan. This is so great”. Because he had never talked to anybody in opposition to be like: “What do you really want? And why are you really against the rezoning?”
 
Gabriela: And was he working with the Community Benefit Agreement with some of the organizations? Because I imagine [some of them] were interested.
 
Jeremy: There were a few. The problem was that a lot of 'em… There was the bid.

And that's ironic because the small businesses were actually against the rezoning. ‘Cause we had spent a lot of time talking to small businesses, ‘cause we got them to put up posters against the rezoning. We had a whole outreach for small business. That was one component, because we knew that Industry City would go to those businesses and pay people. They had social media ads with small businesses being like: “Oh, we love the rezoning”. And it was ironic to see that because these were Fifth Avenue businesses that would get no benefit from the rezoning. And the whole sense was that they were basically paid out or they got free ads from Industry City [saying like]: “We will promote you, we'll promote your business. We'll try to push tourists to go to your business”.

So for the CBA, there was a handful of groups and also a few community board members. And so then we were like: “Well, they're gonna try to say that [they spoke to] the community board”. And we're like: “This is very disingenuous”. Because one of them [the members Industry City talked to] was the community board president at the time. So it was frustrating to see, like: “You are using your position of power as the president of the board to speak for the community board and more importantly like to speak for the community”. But I think that it was the Sunset Park High School meeting where it really made it clear and where some of our campaign switched to.

We had to refute what a Community Benefits Agreement was.

And that's why we did meetings to educate people on how Community Benefits Agreements have failed and how there's a 20 year history of it. And we went back through all of this. And the more that you looked at these details and [saw] 5, 10 years after these rezonings, how little the communities actually got. And you had to talk to people to say: “Look, this might sound nice on the surface that, oh, we're getting something out of this, but, and in the long run, this is the negative stuff and here's how this stuff is not enforced”. So we went into some of these CBA meetings, which would be 20, 30 people, and it was a lot of the same people at these meetings. We would go to them and protest, and sort of the pushback was to interrupt and stall the group, and to make sure that there wasn't any momentum. And [to stall] their conversations.

And sometimes they met at Menchaca’s office. So it was very clear that he was leading the group. And, with the pandemic happening, that fortunately for us also stalled the land use process. That was in some way, I think very helpful, but also presented a huge challenge for organizing as well, because you're dealing with the pandemic now. Everything is remote. People are switching to organizing via Zoom. And then when the ULURP restarted, I was very surprised they started up pretty early. And so we were one of the first land use [meetings] that was via Zoom. So that was brand new. And in some way or another, we had to get more creative around how we organized that because it wasn't in person. So we did a whole sort of Action

Press Conference before and then went over to Industry City and gathered all these people to do testimony together as almost a rally. And that hearing was 14 hours long or something like that. I think it's supposed to start at 10 in the morning. And I am pretty sure we were there till at least like 11 o'clock at night or something like that. It was like the whole entire day. And the interesting thing was that, the whole point of public hearings or public actions is to make your voice heard, and if you're doing it alone, it doesn't really give the sense of community. So we had all these people with banners and chants and stuff like that. So we kind of were able to subvert the Zoom hearing. And it was great to hear from people who I think

did more traditional testimony organizations and stuff like that.

UPROSE had a lot of great testimony around the climate issues and about the grid. And it was great to hear from them. Then you had several hours of bringing people there to the meeting and having people chant and, you know, giving their testimony in front of people with banners and posters. Now you see that a lot more with the hearings being on Zoom. That more people are doing that to bring that feel back to it. ‘Cause otherwise there is sort of an isolating thing when it's just a single person giving a testimony. It doesn't have the same feel, the power of like: “this is how the community feels. This is how a group of people feel”. So yeah, with the rezoning sort of stalled, it also again changed how we had to organize and changed the messaging around,

because now Carlos Menchaca was a “No”.

But then we also had to deal with that. They [Industry City] were trying to push this to the rest of City Council and try to get a chance to override Menchaca, which would've been unprecedented, but it had happened once or twice. So we thought: “Well, if there's anyone that can do it, it would be Industry City with all this money and all this influence they have”. So that changed the nature of our campaign. We had to then focus now that we knew Menchaca was a “No”, we had to make sure that we would influence some other city council members. So we went after people like Cory Johnson, and we started looking at who were other city council members that should be on our side. And we went to people like Justin Brannan, like local city council members who are close by that would also be affected. So we had meetings with and Justin Brannan and presented him

with the facts about the rezoning and stuff like that.

So there was a lot of lobbying, and UPROSE did the same thing for assembly members, like State Senators. I think one of the big things was that, once Machaca was a “No”, it became a citywide battle. That's why we had to invite more people in and organize around that. But then, we were gathering more people, you know, organizations like UPROSE and Protect Sunset Park. We were trying to get elected officials to sit, come out and say “No”, to get more and more pressure. And so one of the big things was Nydia Velasquez saying “No” to this. She gathered, she helped to influence, [she] was a no for a while. [She] influenced several other very important elected [officials]. And that was important, to have her stance[because] she came out with multiple

people, [like] Jerry Nadler, other national representatives to say: “we are against this rezoning”. And then all of a sudden it was like: “You don't have the community, you don't have the community board, you don't have the council member”. Now you have national figures putting out a letter [against the rezoning]. And when we saw that letter, we were like: “This is huge”. Because now all these avenues of power that they look towards have been shut off. They don't have access to [them] and that they can't say…And then of course the mayor, too. We knew: “oh, well if De Blasio wants this, and he's thinking about it…” we had [planned] some actions against De Blasio in the middle of the pandemic.

One of them actually I think was one of the most effective actions that we had. We found out he was coming to Sunset Park to promote vaccines. And they had a vaccine truck

and they were doing sort of this outreach. And we had maybe 20 or 30 of us with the Protect Sunset Park petition. And he was doing a press conference, [he] had all these press people following him around. [We had] people with t-shirts and posters saying:“Against the rezoning”, everywhere they go. And then, somebody would be sitting on the bench and de Blassio would want to talk to somebody, and they'd be like: “are you against the rezoning?” [laughter] And so wherever he walked, he was like: “I've talked with your people five times now”. So for like an hour and a half he'd just get approached with it. And his press people said: “Oh, we'll get back to you… tell us more about this”. And it was interesting 'cause once he saw that… that there's some camera crews following around and they’re seeing people protesting, and he came here for vaccines… [He] thought that would be it… [but] it actually put more pressure on him.

We actually… The mayor does the Brian Lair show. We called him multiple times. I got on the Brian Lair show, asked him about it, and he goes: “You guys just protested me [laughter] in the park”. So it was like multiple pressure points. And then all of a sudden the Brian Lair show was covering it. And it was interesting how those kinds of tactics worked off of things. We were like: “Well, we got some attention here from that action. How do we build off of that?”. And we knew that at that point there were only a few people left that could really change it, that had the power to, and it was like: “Well, if the mayor really wanted to, would the mayor put enough influence on City Council, on Cory Johnson to change it?” And we made it toxic enough that De Blassio is leaving that, it was like: “Why would you want to do this at the end of your term, and then

basically have no say over how it's implemented and what the real impacts of that rezoning would be?”

So, I mean, what was amazing about it in a lot of ways was that for so many years, I think people [thought] that to win was impossible. And that the only thing, the best thing that you could hope for was a CBA, because that was the tactic that a lot of people had accepted. So there were a few people in the community who just assumed that that was the route that you went [for], and those were the parameters for a victory. Whereas, [laughter], you know sometimes we felt like we were being stubborn. But it was to say that there were levels of “No”. And that it was like the first victory was the no.

And then the, then the next sort of building off of the victories was

how much Community Say do we get over the waterfront, and the neighborhood, and the development of the neighborhood? And how much does a “No” buy Sunset Park time for community groups to be able to do the work that they need to fight back against the bad sort of development that we were gonna see. But then also to have a positive vision. And that's why it was so great. You know, UPROSE had a vision of the grid that was all comprehensive. And then you had the 197-A plan from the Community Board from 15 years ago. And there was always a vision of more… from people like Protect Sunset Park and from other organizations like Voices [Ciudadanas] —and I've actually did video work with Voices around the Make Space for Quality Schools.

To me that work is intertwined with the Protect Sunset Park work in the sense that it's about empowering the community, and creating a more democratic process, more community say in development. To me, that was one of the most beautiful campaigns, the “Make Space for Quality Schools”. And Voices did such a huge job with that. That's why they were also involved with the Industry City Battle and Protect Sunset Park. These new sorts of organizing opportunities and things are all kind of dovetailed into that same vision in a lot of ways. The Plaza… _Mexicanos Unidos _came about around the same time of the Industry City rezoning. And the first few months of Mexicanos Unidos they were heavily focused on fighting the rezoning, [they] did a number of actionsagainst the rezoning.

And you know, I see so much of what the Plaza is. About community organizing themselves, and giving spaces for vendors, outside of nonprofits and organized space. Creating that sense of culture… That was so important. So that's why I also see the Plaza fight as an extension of what people in the community wanna see and that sense of self-determination. And you know, the library space too. I see the same thing. That sense of being like, every community space is valuable and needs to have input from the community, and we need to make sure we're reclaiming those spaces.
 
Gabriela: I'm thinking about these groups that you're mentioning, and just thinking about the Protect Sunset Park coalition.

So what was the makeup of all this group? You know, you mentioned there were some individuals, some organizations. But in terms of [the] different communities of Sunset Park, was it more like Latinx or Asian, or more like owners, renters? 
 
Jeremy: Yeah, so I would say one of the key things about the organizing that we wanted to do was to make it as representative of Sunset Park [as possible]. And I was like: “We can't speak for the community if we're not representing as much of the community as possible”. And so I think we were very well represented in the Latinx community. And I think that was like from the beginning our base, because we had so many people who organized within that community around tenant organizing, around housing, around immigration stuff.

So, you know, people like Genesis, or Whitney or Jorge who’d done a lot of organizing around ICE Watch too. So I think the Latinx community, we were like heavily organized. And in various parts too. We did actions. We were part of the Puerto Rican Day Parade and Protect Sunset Park, and they had to come on and speak. Dennis brought us up and we spoke about the rezoning and capturing hundreds of signatures. And it was beautiful to see people be like: “this is about preserving the Puerto Rican culture in Sunset Park too”. And then, for Mexican Day of Independence, we were also at the parades there. And that was a huge part ofthe base that was already sort of built in, I think, from the general makeup of who we were. Then we did spend a lot of time trying to reach out and doing as much outreach as possible with organizations within the Chinese community.

We knew that was very important because in some way Industry City would try to reach out to more of the small businesses on 8th Avenue and in the Chinese community. ‘cause I think there was an assumption that we kept seeing from some people that: “Well, the waterfront is further away, we will be less impacted by this”. And so some of the small businesses were like: “Well, I could gain something from them because they're offering me something. But I don't think I'll have as much of a negative impact”. So we did spend a while, and I think we made some really good inroads within the Chinese community. And I think also, you see that in the organizing that Voices did with MakeSpaces that was very much representative of the community and some of the best organizing that I've seen across Asian and Latinx communities in Sunset Park. We were also able to tap into those same people for the Industry City rezoning too.

And I think that was really interesting because we saw that, that was one of the tougher things about the rezoning. You know, in the Sunset Park, Chinatown part, a lot of times small businesses or landlords are the spokespeople. That's who generally become spokespeople. And sometimes it's in general in a lot of communities, it's people who have a little bit more power and say. And then who is on the community board within the Chinese community is actually people who are business owners and landlords, and who are people that Industry City had already reached out to, or were already supporting for years. So we had to sort of refute that. And we did organizing around bringing Chinese organizations to be against it, or to be sort of critical

of elements if they wouldn't come out publicly to not be supporting it and to not support the CBA. So that was actually effective because I think we scared away organizations from signing on to the CBA. And I think at a certain point if a number of organizations weren't signed on, then it did feel like there wasn't support in the Chinese community. And the really tricky thing was language… language barriers for doing canvassing, having multiple Chinese dialects, you have a lot of Fujianese speakers. And, and so being able to, to reach as many different parts of the Chinese Sunset Park community takes a lot of outreach and effort. So it was very key for the coalition to be as representational as possible.

And most of us were renters, but we did outreach as well to homeowners. 'Cause we knew that homeowners would be the people that could say: “I will get the most benefit. My property value will go up”, who have stability, who aren't worried about the housing price or pressures from gentrification because they own their homes. So we worked a lot to try to get homeowners, and we had a fair amount of homeowners on board. So I think that was a key element that the coalition really represented so many different people. So then there was never one group that was completely aligned with the rezoning.
 
Gabriela: So Jeremy, this has been an incredible conversation. If you can just…

I would like to ask you if you can tell me what was kind of like the most powerful moment of this campaign for you. You know, like a moment that you really remember, like: “This was the moment”. And if you can talk briefly about what you would tell to the younger generation of organizers and activists here in the community.
 
Jeremy: Yeah. I would think there's so many amazing moments. I think one of them I would say is really the aftermath of that big public hearing that Carlos Manchaca did, where he left and then there's sort of everybody, the core of organizers, they're sitting there and we're like: “We have all these people here”. And we just started telling 'em: “Stay here, stay here,

everyone we're gonna hold our own meeting.” And to me that was really one of the most beautiful things because I would say at least half of the people stayed. And so you had a couple hundred people and then it really felt like the power had shifted. And it was one of those moments where you see the power of organizing and the way in which people are collectively together. And all of a sudden we're in this room, in this space where our message has been said loudly enough that now Carlos feels the sense that he has to walk out. And then instead of, you know, not demonizing him, but saying, look: “He walked out on hearing from us, so this is not over”. So the community gets a chance to speak. And then there was like, at least an hour or more of people being there and talking about why they're against the rezoning and talking about basically why they appreciate the community. And that was really, really powerful.

And then the amazing thing was that it was going so late, I think they were actually told to do this, the security guards turned the lights off at the high school. And you had elderly people, children and stuff. And so there were just emergency lights in this big auditorium. And the funny thing is that is was so great, but people just turned on their cell phone cameras.
 
Gabriela: Oh, wow. 
 
Jeremy: And they kept going. It was a funny thing because they [the guards] were like: “You need to leave.” And people were like: “No, this is a community hearing. And people want to speak.” And it was really an incredible dialogue between people. And that was that moment where it was like: “Oh yes, we have the power to do this, this is not an impossible thing.” And it was that one time where almost, you know,

almost everybody in the room who was against it was in the same room together. And then you saw sort of the diverse coalition and the way in which there were many different signs and many different reasons against the rezoning. So that was really beautiful to see all kinds of people come together, and also impromptu because we had no idea that he would walk out. And people I think had the trust for us. 'cause I think people could have just said: “Oh yeah, the meeting's over he left. Yeah. And instead… It was just really interesting. ‘Cause there's so much chaos and commotion going on. And so some people just started walking out and, but it was interesting how much trust they had to yell at people: “Hey, no, no, stay, stay, stay.” And then people have this trust and then you have this incredible sort of dialogue. And especially to see sort of many different generations, many different types of people be able to get up there

and also assume leadership too. That's what was really nice to see.

What we always said that was really important about the coalition was that there were many leaders. That there wasn't just one face or one person who was the leader of everything. That it was like many, many people could step up and be the leader. And I think that's one of the key things about when you build a robust coalition and campaign, that it doesn't get associated with one person who then has, I think the pressure and also the unfortunate thing of maybe making the decisions. It has to be horizontal, it has to be many leaders. And decision making has to bemuch more democratic. So I would say for future organizing and activists… I think one of the really important things that I learned from this and from other housing organizing rezoning battles

and things like that is the way in which the system is designed to keep you kind of focused on always reacting.

Being able to analyze the system and then figure out where you need to react at moments and then where you need to be proactive and then where you need to create your own vision, I think that's really important. That's why I think long term you see the pushback to these very capitalist developer driven rezonings… The pushback in the long term are community led developments, CLTs [Community Land Trusts], Socialized Housing, protecting Public Housing. Having that vision and being rooted and being like:“these are the things that foster community,

that promote the positive things that we want to see, and [to] preserve those positive things”. Cause sometimes I think what happens is you can get sucked into playing too much of the game. And then kind of losing a sense of vision. And at the end of the day, a developer and even the political system has all these rules written that are against basically a lot of what you're trying to do. So yes, you're at a negative advantage, but if you always have a constant vision and a sense of there is more that you can advocate for, there's more that you should be striving for, there's never a sense of: “Oh, this is where you need to compromise”.

Because the system is always constantly telling you that: “No, you can't actually do that vision, but you should compromise. And this is where you get a win.”

And so that's why I was always like, from the very beginning: “Oh, compromise you will never stop this rezoning”. And people said: “Oh, it sounds nice that you're against this”, but then behind the scenes they’d say: “Oh, you know, this is impossible. This won't happen. You will not stop this. There's too much money involved, too much influence”. And so I think that's sort of telling. What's great is like there were so few rezoning victories to point to. And so I think it's really important to be able to say: “Yes, you can't do that”. And that you should never start from a perspective of: “we're already compromising”, because the other side [laughters], the other side doesn't compromise, but it, it seems like they

are compromising. But because everything within that system is set towards their [goals]. The way in which ULURP works is, who has the most influence over politicians, all that kind of stuff is weighed towards developers, towards real estate. And the amount of political power they have in New York is immense. That sense of like: “Don't accept the rules”. And I think you have to look outside of the parameters of what is considered a win within that system. And always constantly be like: “If I'm outside of this, in an ideal world, what do we want to see for our communities?”

And that's what you fight for and that's what you constantly are advocating for. And that's why it's so great to see throughout Sunset Park that we have people doing that kind of work and then actually getting those things done. Like Make Spaces for Quality Schools. There's five brand new schools. And now actually, you know, my kids go to those schools. At the time I was working on that campaign, I didn't have children. I didn't think about: “I would have children go actually be able to take advantage of that”. It was more that this is what the community wants. You see families here are struggling, that schools were overcrowded. And instead of accepting the sort of compromise of: “Oh, you know, this is what it is in Sunset Park. Like that's how it is, there's no space for schools”. Instead it was: “We will find space, we will tell you where the spaces are,

like you should go build it”. And then now it's like those five new schools are almost all here. And then now the next challenge is, we did that. You don't settle with that or compromise with that. It's to be like, how to make those schools equitable. How are those schools teaching? Like my son goes to dual language, he’s in 4K and he has dual language, [like] most of his classmates Spanish-English, how do you make that classroom now more equitable?

I think what is really interesting and what I think is so great that you see in Sunset Park is that there's a sense to keep building off of those things and, and there's always a sense of people pushing for more understanding that they can get better. And we've seen that when you organize that people win, and that we've won these things that people said: “No, you can't do that”.

So at the end of the day, I'm very, very proud of what Sunset Park is and the community. And that the Industry City rezoning was just one thing, one of many victories. But to point to people to say: “Look, the community has organized against these things or for these things and has won these things, we have a history of that. And so don't let anybody say that at the end of the day. Like, no, that's not possible. You can't do this or you can't do that”.
 
Gabriela: I think there is a lot to learn from Sunset Park, so thank you for sharing your experiences. Thank you so much for this conversation. 
 
Jeremy: Thank you.

La version en Español será incluida pronto !