Rob Robinson (Interview 2)

[00:00:00] Greetings and Introductions. The day after a holiday, stepping back from social justice work for a bit.

[00:00:34] Impact of origin story, when you realize your voice does count is motivating for people, returning to Miami as a member of Picture the Homeless (PTH) after being homeless on the streets there for two-and-a-half years and being hassled, moved along, the stuff do to homeless folks.

[00:02:00] To go back down there, organizing with a group called Take Back the Land who was going to show us how they utilized vacant spaces to meet the needs of people was powerful.

[00:02:29] The financial crisis, called for a new economic system, our African American President sent this message to the people, “The banks can’t fail. You as a person can fail, but the banks can’t fail.” And took our tax money and bailed out the banks, those banks started foreclosing on us and evicting us.

[00:03:20] I got an opportunity to learn about Take Back the Land, going back to Miami, I felt pretty powerful going back down there, we’re going to see how this is done and practice it ourselves, that was the springboard to a lot of things to happen to me over the next ten years.

[00:04:18] Coming to PTH the organizer trainee program, understanding what the organization was about, I wasn’t homeless anymore when I came to PTH, saw a need for homeless folks to organize themselves, started to receive emails from PTH, went to a housing meeting.

[00:06:01] Decided it was the way I wanted to spend some time and energy, spent about a year understanding what the organization was all about, went into the organizer trainee program, it helped move me in a different direction, the practical steps to make social change, bringing people together.

[00:06:53] When you organize, you’re bringing people together who are angry, to organize it in a positive direction, members drive decisions of organizations, collectively, folks ideas and decisions are made, people may have differences when they come but the hope is by the time people step away from the table, you’ve come to consensus on how we move forward.

[00:08:16] A big part of the organizing training was, how to make that happen. How do you bring a bunch of angry people to the table, who may want the same thing but they’re all thinking of different ways to get there, we know people are all over the place.

[00:08:50] Consensus happens through conversation, people don’t always agree, but you start to lay out the different ways that you can get to what it is you want to get, which will be the most effective, bring the most people into our work, understand it’s not about me alone, it’s about us, and what does it take for us to get where it we want to go?

[00:10:56] I remember numerous fights around what we call “affordable”, different arguments around affordability, we all looked at it different ways, certain income limits, people had no income at all, what is truly affordable, and affordable to whom.

[00:11:28] One of the biggest fights was understanding Area Median Income, and folks interpreting it differently, having to figure out what it meant to us as homeless and formerly homeless folks, what it meant to affordability, we had to educate ourselves.

[00:12:18] Popular and political education became a forefront of that organizing training. I had an understanding of it, but other people weren’t fortunate enough to have the same level of education, but it doesn’t mean they couldn’t learn, what tools are we giving them to learn this?

[00:12:51] Leadership says, “If you understand this issue, then how do you get other people to understand it? What is your role in helping people to understand it?” A lot of the time at Picture the Homeless involved thinking through that stuff.

[00:14:16] In the Bronx, in the office when it opened up and on the computer doing research, being in a housing campaign meeting with folks that maybe could have used a computer to find out those things, but hadn’t been, that was a struggle and hard to understand.

[00:15:50] On the streets of Miami, I panhandled from ten in the morning until eight at night, so much is pushed on us to say, “You’re a failure as an individual.” But what about the obstacles that are put in place? We have to expose the problems and then we have to work to change it.

[00:17:31] There was a good majority of the people that were focused, but leadership tells you to get other people to be able to carry that message. You can’t do this alone, we had too many members in that housing committee to try to do it alone.

[00:18:13] When I came out of homelessness, I didn’t have a computer at home, met university professors through my work at PTH and started getting a little access to universities. That office became my home base you knew you had the tools there to do the research, you had access to an office.

[00:19:29] You had the opportunity to share what you were thinking with others, one person is not going to make change, how can I take these tools that I have and use them to the best of my ability to promote other leaders within the organization?

[00:20:15] Ability to move in different spaces, even among a group of homeless people, I did see myself in a place of privilege, people looked and reacted to me a little bit different because I was blessed to have some education and a work history, they saw Rob Robinson as “the safe homeless person” to bring into the space.

[00:22:05] That’s not right. We’re all safe, right? Professor Neil Smith made me understand this, a lived experience that can teach others and inform others, and it was the reason why he said I’m bringing you to my class, you have knowledge and experience.

[00:22:59] It was important to use that privilege to lift up the voices of other homeless folks. I spent a lot of time, especially in my early days at PTH saying, “you need to come along to this meeting. They’re not going to talk to you that way anymore.”

[00:24:25] When you walk into a room and say, “Yeah, this was constructed this way, and it’s slanted towards you. But I’m about to balance it out now because I’m inside of the space." I think that levels out the playing field and makes people look at you and at the group of homeless people a lot differently.

[00:24:53] Leading by example, example of somebody who was less confident, who was next to me on the steps of city hall at an action, we were told we couldn't chant. I said, “If we can’t chant, then we’re not standing here with our banner.” Dynamics between advocacy organizations and homeless folks.

[00:27:25] Some members were challenging, what’s interesting for me is even after I left, new members will say something like, “You’re Rob? Everybody talks about you.” You like to hear that, what do I need to do to help you achieve that?

[00:28:57] A big part is accompanying members into spaces they are uncomfortable with. To understand that you have an issue to articulate to folks and a certain level of knowledge about this issue, you can interact with the folks on the same level that they’re on, you may not use the same terminology that they use, but it’s the same. Importance of language.

Robinson: [00:30:04] Enjoys challenging power to level out the playing field, including international work, U.N. mechanisms, they want the voice of the homeless, and you push back, “Okay. Well, I’m not the only homeless person out there. You need to seek some other voices.” If you want other voices, then make the language accessible.

[00:31:13] The U.N. Special Rapporteur investigation of Extreme Poverty, involved with the Rapporteur on Racism through NESRI and the Human Rights Program at the Urban Justice Center. I had been leading the work for PTH for the Right to the City Coalition. Ejim Dike asked me to organize something.
 
[00:33:10] She was empowering me as somebody she saw who would come up through the ranks, so I went right to the computer, figured out who he was, and we did a nice little public event, got a lot of recognition, that was probably my first foray into human rights work.

[00:34:14] The second time is when we did the attempted building takeover, another powerful event organized by PTH, we came back from Miami, decided we’re going to move on this building on 116th Street and Madison Avenue.

[00:34:58] Tiffany Gardner, at NESRI, saw me standing on the corner negotiating with the police and says, “You all would be real powerful if you wrapped all what you’re doing around a human rights frame. Call me when this is over.” People had respect for the organization, we had allies on the street, three-hundred people.

[00:35:40] An empowering moment for homeless people, a homeless organization, our allies saw what we were doing having value, it pushed us in the direction of the human rights struggle, another big event where the UN Rapporteur and the Right to Housing came to the U.S. in 2009.

[00:36:40] That relationship is at the front of a lot of the work I’m involved in now, but those opportunities came as a result of being a member of an organization that is organizing homeless people. This is a bigger fight than housing, this is a struggle for land.

[00:38:24] Helping other members connect with UN work, representing PTH, building relationships with staff and members of other organizations.

[00:39:53] You organize by using what you learned, how to do a one-on-one, trends start to develop, out of trends we start to find out there’s a problem, then we work towards a solution.” It was some of the foundational training that I got to be able to do that.

[00:40:36] That organizing academy helped me a lot, you’ve heard of one-on-ones but how do you make it happen? It’s easy to talk about it, but what does it look like? What are the eight steps or ten steps, whatever it is? I suddenly had that toolset in my back pocket and able to do that.
 
[00:41:22] PTH at that time, had three staff. All the things that members wanted to be done were not going to be done by only three staff. As a leader, reaching out to staff of other organizations was challenging in some aspects, and good in the others. Some we were closer to than others.

[00:43:26] At Community Voices Heard, it was Henry that I got to know well, for the most part, it was a difficult process to make that happen but members who were in the trenches with you would take back messages to the organization.

[00:44:27] You wanted to give folks an opportunity who were struggling to have their voices heard, when their own organization wasn’t listening to them, or the people that had power wouldn’t listen to them.

[00:45:21] A woman who was homeless at the time, her piece was so powerful, it’s in the documentary that we created, More Than a Roof. It shifted some thinking, because mostly you would see people of color in these situations. Here’s this white woman and people are looking at it a little bit differently.

[00:46:04] How do you move people? Sometimes there are people carrying other problems and issues that are beyond the scope of organizing or what we can do for them. That was a harsh reality that I had to come to.

Robinson: [00:46:49] She’s eight-six, and she’s sleeping on church steps! You’ve had people there offer you housing. So, these problems sometimes are beyond the scope of organizing and other things.

[00:47:13] PTH was an open space, but not everybody is at the same place. How do you reconcile folks being ready to engage or able to sustain participation with those who aren't? It’s hard. The way I look at it is, I can’t put as much energy into moving that person as I used to.

[00:48:45] Example of a homeless vet, I’ve tried to engage him for the last three months. You get to stages. You’ll engage a person—something to eat. Are you hungry? Because I’ve been on the streets. So, if nothing else, I learned you don’t pass anybody on the street the way you were basically taught.

[00:49:33] As a kid, you see a homeless guy on the street, “Dad, give me a dollar. I want to give it…” “He’s a lazy—he’s a bum.” I knew I wasn’t a lazy bum when I was on the streets for two-and-a-half years, at the very least, I’m going to get you something to eat if you tell me yes.

[00:49:58] I was engaging in conversation with this gentleman and then all of a sudden he just wanted nothing to do with me. It bothers me because I have the ability to be able to help him, and move him in a different direction, but people sometimes won’t allow you.

[00:51:11] I learned this when we went to Budapest, Hungary. I started talking to folks who were laying along this canal about where I used to stay on the beach, all of a sudden they all sat up and they started talking to me because some of the things I went through related to what they were going through.

[00:51:48] When you share your lived experiences, and it matches what they’re going through, there’s instantaneous trust as opposed to trying to build trust up over a period of time, there are also some folks who you engage with on a basis, maybe it’s a meal today, tomorrow you come talk to them.

[00:52:19] Recently a member at PTH was challenging me to say, “Well, you got to meet them where they’re at Rob, and if that means kneeling on the ground, then you got to kneel on the ground.” But there’s certain things you can and can’t do and you’re not going to always be successful. But if you change one person—fucking huge!

[00:53:06] You want to move the masses, but also being satisfied pushing one person in the right direction and having them engaged the right way. The world is not going to change overnight. It takes time to connect with people in a real way.

[00:53:55] It’s been a blessing, there are lessons learned. There’s no quit in me. I like challenges. I like to figure out problems.

[00:56:04] I don’t say PTH was a challenge. I was intrigued and committed, commitment is a big part of it. I could have gone back, I was making a lot of money in IT and the work that I was doing. But that whole process of going homeless, going through PTH transformed me.

[00:56:33] You can call what I went through at PTH and other places, a re-education of Rob Robinson, that’s where a lot of spending the time, on the computer, when I came back to New York, this word gentrification was all over the place. What does that mean?

[00:57:11] In Miami, they were building fancy condominiums and couldn’t sell them, gentrification had taken hold there and they overbuilt and overextended themselves. In New York seeing all these buildings going up was a big part of me doing a lot of the research to figure out how housing happened, starting when we took over that building on 116th and Madison.

Robinson: [00:58:05] People like Frank Morales, the Episcopal priest and Mark Naison the professor, saying, “Look, people were organizing in Harlem in the '30s…” Those opportunities came to me from those experiences and those actions and connecting with folks like that.

[00:58:50] For the human rights piece, learning about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Nobody taught me this in school. Article number XXV says we have the right to a home. Understanding what those documents and understanding what those treaties were.

[00:59:51] Charley Heck, out of his pocket pulls out The Bill of Rights, and he says, “I have everything I need already.” I do that with the pocket-sized edition, Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article number XXV. Everybody has the right to a safe, affordable home, how come we don’t abide by it? You may have to shame your country into a reaction.

[01:01:31] I’d go to the U.S. Human Right Center, “Give me a hundred of those booklets.” I’d pass them out in meetings, “Keep this in your pocket and every time a cop arrests you or something, show them Article number XXV.” When the U.N. rapporteur was in California and issued their report, all the media coverage they got had to have helped sway some people.

[01:02:34] Direct action is empowering, and we did a lot of actions at PTH, it emboldened and forced me to understand power in a way.

[01:03:37] I didn’t realize how easily that could be done until a lawyer we had at the action on 116th and Madison, it emboldened me to have an ally standing behind me, who knows the law, you’re negotiating with the police, and there was just a certain level of confidence in me.

[01:04:22] We could level playing fields if we understand the psychology behind a lot of this work, the psychology of police barking orders, we react in a way that forces them to react. That was an education for me.

[01:05:05] A writer from New York Metro was on the scene, the first thing I did when the high-level police came, was introduce them to the reporter from New York Metro. Playing field is level, are you going to hit me with a stick while I’m talking to a reporter from the news?

[01:05:23] I had never been in direct actions before. It was as a member of PTH and as a member of the Right to the City Coalition in 2008, Mayor Bloomberg was the keynote speaker and a hundred Right to the City members busted up his speech just as he was about to start.

[01:06:06] Eight of us ended up getting arrested, we made a political point and raised awareness to a level probably that hadn’t been seen in this city in a long time. That emboldened me to step up when we decided to do this action on 116th Street and say, “I’ll be the police negotiator.” I wanted to say to membership, “There’s nothing to be afraid of.”

[01:07:13] Everybody was afraid, and I still had this open case, and said, “I’m going to do it. What’s to be afraid of? We got plenty of legal support.” I wanted to set an example, “You’re taking a little bit of risk, but the reward is going to outweigh any risk and you’re going to raise awareness to a level never seen in this city in several years.”

[01:08:06] The next day, the inspector from that 25th Precinct called, “What are your plans for the building, that day?” It’s powerful! It says, you can achieve things that you never thought you could. But, you have to push fear to the side, and you have to take some risks. That was a huge thing for me.

[01:08:42] Somebody has to take a risk within the organization, make a sacrifice. I’m not married. I didn’t have any children. I could take the risk. There’s all of these little factors that come into play. So, you can’t be angry at some people for not taking that risk.

[01:09:14] You have to send a message to folks, we have to take a risk to make change and it can’t always be the same person, we’re not effective if it’s the same person. We’re not creating leaders and the one person that constantly will challenge that power, is a rabble rouser, it’s not taken seriously.

[01:09:54] We did those large-scale takeovers, and then we didn’t, feeling disappointed, I wanted us to just take over everything. Your imagination runs wild, man!

[01:10:42] I was a staff person with an apartment, but I also felt like once you do these things, you realize you go in, you come out, we had that open case from 115th Street and we went to Budapest, we didn’t even go into the courtroom. J.P. Morgan Chase, were like, “No. We don’t want to touch this.”

[01:11:08] The political education is not institutionalized. We do it on occasion, when we feel there’s a need. In Brazil is, it’s ongoing. I don’t think it’s a PTH problem. I think it’s a social justice in New York problem, not many people in this city willing to take over property to send a message.

[01:12:21] There’s been a lot of outreach, and a lot of people, “No, no, no, no…” There’s some validity because of a history of police violence. But we showed them as an organization that we can do this, we educated ourselves on how to do this, were very clear what roles and what positions people would hold.

[01:12:58] I don’t know how we could have been more successful in this city, as somebody who believes in direct action and civil disobedience, a fantasy of mine is finding twenty-five, thirty soldiers to take over a multi-story, vacant building in this city, to send a message.

[01:13:35] I would argue that some of those people who got arrested with us on 115th may not go a second time, there’s two or three of us, it’s a small number. I believe it’s the political education that’s the piece and how you move people to that place?

[01:14:26] There were 14.4 million vacant homes, and 2.3 million homeless people, it’s a political education piece, getting people to a certain place to understand those things, there are pockets of resistance around the country, if we could have gotten to scale, I think things would have changed.

[01:15:00] I don’t think you fault PTH, we raised awareness around the issue and the possibilities, it’s up to the rest of the movement to pick up the baton and run with it, we created the model, so to speak. We’ve done it. You want to know how? Come see us!

[01:15:39] Early on with Picture the Homeless, members talking about vacant buildings and people were saying that's not an issue. The housing movement in NYC was fighting to hold on to housing, the only group that was talking about, needing new units of housing were people that didn’t have housing.

[01:16:47] The tactics that you would use to hold on to housing would be to maintain relationships with institutions and elected officials, for those you need relationships with the system. Or you feel like you do and we feel like that because we believe in democracy.

[01:17:50] Then you have a group of people that have no relationships with any of these institutions, because all the institutions said, “Fuck y’all.” I think that that’s what gave PTH an edge, to say, “Yeah. Let’s take over some buildings.” We didn't have much to lose.

[01:18:11] The elements that go into folks feeling like they can take those risks, with the U.N. work, NESRI, and the National Campaign to Restore Housing Rights, the organization wasn’t as connected. It’s tough because you’re working from two spaces, it’s hard to navigate back and forth.

[01:20:01] Most of the groups that were involved in the Campaign to Restore National Housing Rights, were also involved in the Right to the City Alliance. But some groups were backing away from Right to the City, it was a weird time.

[01:20:33] Having those relationships and knowing a lot of the staff from other organizations served a good purpose to keep the groups involved in the Campaign to Restore National Housing Rights alive, but it sort of pushed me away from the work of PTH and being involved in a real way.

[01:20:58] I think philanthropic money sort of interferes with us building relationships at times, they give you metrics and to respond to those metrics, you have to focus, I get a lot of that now. I didn’t necessarily get it then.

[01:22:13] It caused some separation and friction, because you’re seeing a national issue, but it’s hard. I see international struggles connected to struggles nationally here in the U.S. and on the ground. But to try to get the folks in Detroit to say, “I need you to talk to folks in Brazil.” It’s like, “I don’t have time for that.”

[01:22:47] We have to keep working at strengthening those relationships. I’ve been able to navigate many different spaces, and it’s been a blessing. But I struggle with, “How do I make stronger connections between movements?”

[01:23:11] A dream would be to bring Hungary and Brazil and the U.S. together, WRAP, Picture the Homeless, A Varos Mendike and the National Organization of Street… I just see it building from there, I think if you continue to work at it, you can make it.

[01:23:55] Tiffany, who was the Human Right to Housing director here at the time, had a lot of charisma. She’s a lawyer and is now one of my best friends and made me understand how to use your privilege to support struggles around the world and give space to other homeless people.

[01:24:59] She used to tease me, “Oh, you seem to like working with students, but every time I come in the office Rob, there’s a white student sitting here. When are you going to mentor Black students, or students of color?” There’s a part of me that thanks her for a lot that she’s done for me.

[01:25:19] The original question, at the time that I was just looking for answers, and knowing that this problem was beyond us in the Bronx, or East Harlem, this was a worldwide problem, I was very involved in the university at the time.

[01:25:52] One of the ways that we’re getting at these answers with the oral history project is that the answers to these questions don’t just live in one person’s story.

[01:26:44] What are some of the common elements, so that strong leaders of an organization who understand the mission don’t have to leave because they evolve politically? A lack of political education, a lot of times you want an answer, and you would have to go to staff, but if we’re bringing people together that are struggling, then people collectively figure out solutions.

[01:28:26] How do we create a model of political education, that we insert in our social justice movements and organizations that comes from the ground up? The MST School in Brazil is a study in that, right? We don’t have many of those spaces.

[01:29:15] I keep pointing a finger at philanthropy, but I think it separates us, it doesn’t allow us to do that. When you’re given an order, or you put in a proposal and you get a check, you have metrics to meet as an organization. “I got to put my time and energy to creating this report, so I can get another check.”

[01:29:44] I don’t know the perfect answer. I challenge philanthropy, but at the same time, I understand why we need those resources, you have to pay staff, bills, rent, where do you get that money? You can’t shake down the members.  
[01:30:12] We have to use our creativity to find another methodology. Why can’t we use members? People will go to a church, and give their tithes because, “God told me to give ten percent.” Well, the “organizational god” is telling you to give ten percent so that your life can improve for real.

[01:30:51] “We want those signs off our building. The church owns this.” I said to her, “Well, it’s been sitting empty for twelve years!” “Well, God is going to help us to fix it up.” “Well, he didn’t help you for the last twelve years. What makes you think he’s going to help you in the next twelve years?” And now it’s luxury housing and it’s mostly empty still.

[01:31:30] I rode by on the bus the other day. I could see it’s empty from the street and I yelled out on the bus. Everybody looked at me. What the fuck?! I always imagine going before a justice and, “Why did you do this?” “Because people are sleeping on the streets and that space was empty.”

[01:32:27] Description of the film, The Camden 25, and use of civil disobedience by Catholics against the war and destruction of urban areas in the U.S., other instances of groups that were squatting in Harlem, being tried under the RICO Statute, they could have all gone to prison. What we risk losing, and what we risk winning.

[01:34:07] That’s part of political education too, getting people to understand that has to be institutionalized, those kinds of conversations and that kind of teaching. It has to be part of our work.

[01:34:26] Relationships within PTH a lot of times I participated mostly in the housing meetings, either facilitating or co-facilitator. I guess working with Nikita, a lot of times we were fighting the Department of Homeless Services, and our approach was a little bit different.

[01:35:16] I had believed in the conversation approach, early on. Nikita and I had some battles there, he had known and been working with the folks for a while, and there was a relationship that existed, but somewhat contentious.

[01:36:03] Nikita and I had our own personal battles and disagreements around how to proceed with that work, but eventually came to an agreement and that was tough. He had been doing it longer. I brought that approach of, “Let’s have a cocktail and let’s sit across the table and have a discussion.”

[01:36:32] Nikita was famous for saying, “They blow smoke up your ass as long as you want. As long as you’re enjoying it Rob, they’ll blow smoke up your ass.” It took me a while to understand that, I look back and we were laughing about that last week. I do think that was a learning period for me. You always remember the big instances, the takeovers and the protests.

[01:37:21] When you start to meet weekly, that’s a lot to hold inside, It was every Thursday night, six to eight, for years. I don’t think they meet that often now, but at that time we were meeting weekly, there’s a lot of individual instances, and meetings, and conversations that happened.

[01:37:49] NESRI, the Coalition to Save Harlem, a big cultural space that was about to be sold out to a developer. I think it was a bookstore and a church.

[01:38:20] We really got involved with supporting folks who were struggling around that issue because there’s an intersection, it’s not only about people with houses to live in, it’s about cultural institutions, changing the fabric of the neighborhood.

[01:38:45] The meetings could have been frantic and fractured, it was still a core group of people who you knew were committed to the issue, folks that really cared about Harlem, and we had just come off the vote to rezone 125th Street. _Hands Across Harlem, _PTH coming together with a core group from the neighborhood trying to keep things stable as best we could, tough times.

[01:39:40] I saw how powerful development was in New York with respect to doing what they wanted to do, people would sell out for a dollar, it didn’t matter the color of their skin, or whatever that institution represented.

[01:40:05] Faith leaders selling out their institutions, “Oh, they told me they were going build me a beautiful new church...” They also promised they were going to do something with Pathmark on 125th Street, it’s still sitting there.

[01:40:56] Brenda Stokely is on the board of PTH now, I haven’t seen her in ages. Miss Kay was part of Coalition to Save Harlem and is still a member of PTH, there were some good relationships.

[01:41:27] Those relationships came over into the visit of the UN rapporteur, Raquel Rolnik, that town hall meeting at Union Theological Seminary, Nellie Bailey and Brenda Stokely.

[01:42:25] That was cross-section, Coalition to Save Harlem, PTH, NESRI, right? All of that coming together at that time period, 2009, a lot of those relationships remain. A lot of the foundation of all these relationships I’ve built have come out of PTH, a springboard to a lot of the international work.

[01:43:00] WhyHunger, Bill Ayers gave us an award, the man can raise some money. I was a member of PTH and we had a big debate, he’s all into urban farming and food sovereignty, I was there with my Yankee cap on, the conversation left homelessness and got to food.

[01:44:25] We had a little bet, we were debating on air, and he says, “You got a Yankee hat on? I’ll send you to an urban farm right near Yankee Stadium, you’ll see they grow food and you’ve got to guarantee me you’ll come back on the air and tell the folks you were wrong.”

[01:44:45] We still laugh about that time, Karen Washington, one of his board members ran a farm somewhere there near Yankee Stadium, they fed me and everything.

[01:45:03] Internal relationships are formed at PTH with other members and staff and relationships are formed among the movement groups, the types of things that made it possible to build these relationships, allowing people to travel and interact with other groups.

[01:46:36] And I always give Helena [Wong] a lot of credit for giving me a foundation for organizing, I met her at that conference, and she just opened up to me told me how Asian folks had to fight walking home from school every day.

[01:47:11] It really stuck with me, she had committed to that organization at a young age and we became close, all through my work with PTH, I built an incredible relationship with Henry [Serrano] from CVH, he became somebody that I could just sit and talk to outside of the organization. Henry was the one who brought me to North Star.

[01:48:47] The way left the work was a real important lesson for me, I still talk about that today because somebody who you respected, who mentored, and you learned a lot from, just walked away from this.

[01:49:31] Every now and then, we got to take a step back, assess what we’re doing, we also have to create space to say, “Does this make sense what we’re doing? How we’re doing it?” You know, we have to do that as individuals. We have to do that as organizations. We don’t often do it.

[01:50:15] And I think it can really destroy people and it can destroy an organization. Those are two key relationships that I always talk about because they were foundational relationships that got me to think about this work.

[01:50:36] As a member, being able to represent the organization so everything isn’t filtered through staff was huge. You’re the direct line of communication, the liaison for the organization. I think it’s so empowering. It doesn’t happen often.

[01:51:29] Being quoted in the paper as the executive director of PTH comes from that empowerment, Cathy [Albisa] went to a meeting, and it was a panel or a talk or something and somebody approached her and said, “Do you know this guy? I thought he was the ED.”

[01:52:05] It’s how you represent, I never once stood in front of any place and said I’m the ED of PTH or the ED of NESRI, but people interpret the way you present an organization.

[01:52:55] It’s kind of the way we were thinking at the Laundry Workers’ [Center]. It hasn’t played out that way in the last couple of years, but that was the original model, to rotate E.D. There are challenges to that also. Whether people have the tools, or are ready, there’s a certain amount of work that goes into something like that.

[01:53:48] Thoughts about this project and some of the applications of this project that could be useful for homeless organizing and organizing in general, and it’s also something even bigger than that. I think just to give the general public an opportunity to hear the voices of homeless people, is powerful.

[01:55:07] In organizing, leaders can be created from storytelling, and understanding the power of storytelling, and not being shamed by something that society has painted you with a broad stroke.

[01:55:57] It’s empowering to masses of homeless people, that you can have a voice, and you can rise up and your voice can be respected. You have to tell your story. It’s been a mission of mine, going back to PTH, I shared mine. But trends come out of other stories that sound like mine, or that intersect with mine and that’s how we see the trends surface.

[01:56:30] There are opportunities to use it in organizing, people are ashamed, you’re branded a failure, it demoralizes people, but it doesn’t make any change when you keep it to yourself. I think this project can go a long way. I don’t know what the installation is. Interactive spaces, hearing some of the stories, how they got there, and what they’re doing now.

[01:57:20] Even allies, would look down at homeless people, as if they can’t do certain things, but sitting down and listening to these stories, or working side by side with some of these folks, I think would be huge. “Here’s a tool, go out and organize with it. Share your story. Encourage other stories. Maybe come back with other stories.”

[01:58:43] Something I’ve always tried to tell people, not to be ashamed, educate with it. Say, “Yeah, I was that, but I’m not anymore…” Or, you know, “I still am, and these are the reasons why I still am.” It’s part of our political education process, there are many places to do it.

[02:00:25] There’s a lot of contradictions in what we do. We all stand and say, “We want a healthy, clean earth” but we can’t grasp recycling here in this country. We don’t want to. We’re lazy.

[02:01:21] When I went to India, I saw them take an old coat, and they recycled it. I saw where the metal goes, the electronics, this whole area of Mumbai is the recycling area along the waterfront, everything recycled!

[02:02:18] What political education have looked like at PTH, a meeting, a structured space to set aside, designated time. We did a good job with saying, “The civil rights meeting is this time. The housing meeting is this time.”

[02:03:56] Also, leaders intentionally doing the teaching would have been important, not only staff or outside consultants. Educating ourselves and sharing what we’ve learned with people, that’s how you really build the movement.

[02:05:23] I enjoy this and it’s always good to go back and to think about how you got to a certain place, a week ago today, I was at the PTH office, working with some of the members and two students from the New School who could possibly intern and support some of the work that they’re doing there.

[02:05:52] If you’re a part of something, you want to see it grow, our comrades in Hungary are struggling a little bit and it’s important for us to reengage them and keep that together, I feel a certain ownership. Again, my fantasy of bringing the three different pieces of the world together.

[02:07:46] Exploring next steps is, themes are emerging from the initial round of interviews, in the next phase, one of the things we want to do is break down the campaigns, what were some milestones? Look at the archive.

[02:09:12] If there’s space at the [CUNY] Graduate Center, some people are in Midtown, and folks get together, “Oh! Well, remember that other thing we did.” Or, “Wow! Who was part of that? Oh, we got to get so and so…”

[02:11:22] This is cool. It’s always good to just go back and reminisce, I enjoyed it, you do the work sometimes and you don’t look back, I said you got to self-assess, right? But sometimes we just tend to just keep going forward and never look back and I think that’s important.