Rev. Liz Theoharis (Interview 2)

Lewis: [00:00:01] It's March 13th, 2023, and this is the second interview with Reverend Liz Theoharis of the Poor People's Campaign. And I'm very happy to be here with you, Liz.
 
Theoharis: Yeah. It's really good to be in conversation—excited about this project.
 
Lewis: [00:00:22] Yeah. So, when you're moving into kind of your role as a student at Union, based on the last interview we did—with a purpose, and having this experience in movement, not just in Philly with homeless folks, but your whole life experience. What was it like for you at Union—introducing students to, you know, poor and homeless people struggles and your intention with the Poverty Initiative?
 
Theoharis: Yeah. I more or less believe I was sent to Seminary, from the National Union of the Homeless and the Welfare Rights Union, to help organize on the campus, but also to think more deeply about the relationship of faith communities and organized religion, to the struggles and movements of poor and low-income people, especially homeless folk. And I got to Union... I got there because I got a great scholarship in honor of someone who had been supportive of social justice movement work of my youth. And I went to Union—again specifically because they had welcomed poor and homeless families, and when we had done marches and events before. And some of the faculty and the staff had actually been involved.
 
Theoharis: [00:01:56] At the beginning of the first year or so of my time at Union, I was mostly trying to get my bearings—still do the work out in the world, and find places where students and faculty and staff could get involved with the work of organizing, especially poor and homeless folk organizing. And it was, maybe in my second year at Union, when I was working closely with the Employment Project and Reverend Paul Chapman that I started to talk to students, and to the administration, and to the faculty about what it would look like to really focus on the kind of needs and demands of poor and homeless folk, within a context of a seminary. A year or so before I had gotten to Union, the Employment Project had done a study of seminaries and found that none of the big seminaries across the country—even those with a justice inclinations, had anything systematic, when it came to the issue of poverty—especially not from the perspective of poor and homeless people themselves—ourselves, organizing.
 
Theoharis: [00:03:22] And a lot of students actually were coming to me asking questions like, “What was their denomination doing around these issues? What were ways to be involved? How do you push congregations around these issues?” And so I found myself answering those questions in class discussion and out of class discussion with a lot of students who are really interested in being more involved, really concerned about poverty and homelessness, maybe didn't know how to get involved, especially how to get involved in a way that wasn't about charity or just like only meeting immediate needs. But if folk were trying to meet immediate needs, how do you do so with movement in mind, with leadership development in mind, with actually eradicating poverty and homelessness in mind and not just managing or alleviating some of the symptoms?
 
Theoharis: [00:04:27] I did find people to be pretty receptive to those questions and those concerns. And yet it was completely an organizing feat, right? To like actually try to move both individual students and faculty and staff, as well as the kind of institutions— whether it was congregations or community organizations or denominations—that folks were connected to. But that was really what the work of the Poverty Initiative was for the first couple of years. How do we build a bridge between poor people's organizations out in the world doing the work of justice and seminarians and others associated with kind of theological education, and on the campus. And trying to also make sure that people didn't just think that the only issues in front of them, or maybe what they see there on TV, or what they already had known about. But trying to orient people towards like the real despair and disparity and inequality that, exists in a city like New York City, but also across the country and world.
 
Theoharis: [00:05:47] I found folks really intrigued by the kind of model that the Poverty Initiative was bringing, of saying that poor and low-income people—that poor and homeless folk, bring not just their sad stories and not just the plight about poverty and homelessness, but also the kind of fight and insight of those who are in the forefront of struggles to eradicate poverty and homelessness. And this idea that if we're going to actually end—and overcome, inequality and poverty and homelessness, that it's going to take a movement, and that that movement has to be led by those that are most directly impacted! Looking at history, [smiles] looking at theory from folks like Frederick Douglass, "Those who would be free, must strike the first blow." Right? But also just looking at effective work, you know, in the here and now—in the city, in the country, in the world.
 
Lewis: [00:06:58] I love that. Thank you. One of the things that was always really important at Picture the Homeless was to not replicate a model where homeless folks kind of told the story of their plight, and then someone else—a lawyer, an advocate, came in with the policy solutions. [Smiles] And what you were also—you were saying something that reminded me of my interview with William Burnett, of them—where he really talked about the challenge with the Potter's Field campaign, where we really wanted to move faith leaders and faith communities to do justice work, not only… And charity work in many ways is justice work. It keeps people alive often—but addressing the causes. And so I wanted to ask if you have a story of when you and some other seminary students came to Picture the Homeless. If you have a story of that visit and what the office was like. And perhaps what the impact of that visit was on you, but also what you witnessed it having on your—on the other seminarians.
 
Theoharis: [00:08:19] Yeah. I remember in particular the first year that the Poverty Initiative had started. We did an immersion course—a couple week immersion course, where we were bringing seminarians–and I think at that point, faculty members and others and staff members—to different locations, nexus of struggle, and organizing work. Again, especially from this perspective of poor folk leading the way to change. And so we brought people to the Picture the Homeless office. I mean, I remember, walking up these stairs and, and being welcomed by a bunch of folks that were in the space.
 
Theoharis: [00:09:13] I remember for myself feeling really at home. Even though I didn't know all the folks that were present, just because it felt much like the offices of the Michigan Welfare Rights Organization in Detroit, or the Kensington Welfare Rights Union in Philly or the Coalition of Immokalee Workers office, down in southwest Florida…It was abuzz with different folk that were there—both for community, for solving some immediate problems. But also just because of the camaraderie of trying to build a movement together and trying to really advocate for—for policies and structures that were going to actually, you know, make a difference in people's lives. And so, I remember there were some folks that had brought their own food. But I also remember us all being offered, you know, water and other snacks and just like a total hospitality that was just, you know, felt immediately.
 
Theoharis: [00:10:21] And I remember there were a number of Picture the Homeless leaders that were present, folks that I had known for a while. And then there were people that I hadn't met before. And I think what we were doing on that immersion trip and in that particular visit, was introducing people—both to the mission and vision of Picture the Homeless, and also specifically to a couple of the campaigns that Picture the Homeless was working on at the time, a campaign around police accountability, some work that was happening around the rights of canners. And then also the work of the Potters Field. Like it wasn't quite the Potter's Field campaign, but—but it was folks that were coming together talking about both the reality of life and death for—for poor and homeless folks, especially through the eyes and experience of Lewis Haggins, the Picture the Homeless co-founder.
 
Theoharis: [00:11:32] And I think there was also some of a presentation. And also, I remember up on the walls a sign with photos from EAU, the Emergency Assistance Unit and the moldy food that people were being fed and the conditions of uncleanliness [smiles] to say the least, that moms and their kids and families were being faced with. Here in this, in this city that is one of the richest cities in the world, in a homelessness assistance unit—that has at this point a billion dollars a year, right? And yet, the realities of poverty, of those conditions. And I remember a couple of folks talking about the predicament of the shelter system in New York City.
 
Theoharis: [00:12:51] I think we actually brought some students to the EAU when it was out near the old Yankee Stadium, and were trying to advocate both—on the busses for some of the folks that have been brought there. But then also others that we're looking for housing placement. And I remember it having a pretty big impact on a bunch of the students that I had brought. There were quite a few people that really weren't aware of the kind of real life conditions that really millions of people in this country face.
 
Theoharis: [00:13:39] And then there were also folks that had experienced a form of homelessness themselves who—who then wanted to talk about and have a chance to process the power of homeless folk and poor folk organizing. A number of the folks that that had been seminarians who had experienced homelessness and poverty in pretty extreme forms, hadn't been a part of an organization like Picture the Homeless or a movement like the one we were trying to build. To see the power of people coming together and not taking the mistreatment … And putting forward this vision that it doesn't have to be this way. So, I remember a lot of that—from the hospitality to the kind of larger politics, how it all had this really amazing impact on people, including myself.
 
Lewis: [00:14:53] Thank you for all that. You know, it—your memories trigger a lot of, of mine. And I, you know, it's—it's really you know, so interesting that you bring up that some of the, your fellow students also had experienced poverty and homelessness because it's something that folks don't always talk about, and just try to flee, right? Myself included—I was able to flee it, but I stayed kind of—in organizing, thanks to some people that organized me, and the... But the power and just the becoming aware that people actually are, you know—have agency and have power. That in and of itself flies in the face of all the stereotypes.
 
Lewis: [00:15:47] And so I wanted to ask you... We talked a lot in the last interview about Jean Rice in particular. [Smiles] That project was focusing on Jean's life, his amazing life. But you also, I know, worked with Arvernetta Henry and Rogers as Poverty Scholars. And so, I don't know if you have any stories about Arvernetta and—or Rogers that you want to share.
 
Theoharis: [00:16:19] Yeah, for sure. As the work developed and I think we really were able to develop a deeper connection and relationship with Picture the Homeless and have students and seminarians and other poor people's organization members, come out in solidarity. We came together to form this Poverty Scholars program. The idea behind it was identifying leaders from different organizations, or folks that were trying to form, and start their own organizations of poor and homeless and low-income folk, who were on the front lines of pushing back against and fighting racism and poverty and low wages and the lack of health care and a lot of different manifestations of ways that that poverty impacts people.
 
Theoharis: [00:17:21] And so, we gathered people a couple of times a year in these strategic dialogs. And we had sometimes thirty, sometimes fifty leaders and when we actually organized in-person leadership schools, we did one in West Virginia that had more than one-hundred and fifty people, from different grassroots organizations. And there were folks that were identified from Picture the Homeless to be Poverty Scholars.
 
In addition to Jean Rice, Arvernetta Henry was an amazing presence in the work. I mean, sure she would come to the strategic dialogs, and she'd come on immersion courses with us and—and she'd come to solidarity actions with other grassroots organizations. I remember being on busses with Arvernetta Henry to Domestic Workers United events in Albany... To like big, big other actions we did in the state capital.
 
Theoharis: [00:18:30] I remember being out in front of the South African Embassy multiple times, because there were attacks going on against Shack Dwellers in South Africa. And we were showing our solidarity by organizing folks here in these United States. And Ms. Henry always was there. She became a real presence in the Poverty Initiative and then Kairos Center offices, where she would come to meetings [smiles] and she'd come and do Bible study and just be a part of the community. Sometimes it would mean we got to share meals together. Sometimes it meant we got to have bigger political conversations together. And she shared with the students and with other grassroots leaders her experience as a schoolteacher and in education. She shared her experience living in the shelter system and the cruelty of it, and the unjustness of it. And she always brought her analysis of the situation and learnings from whatever we were doing and applied it to whatever situation we were in. She became someone that folks could really count on–always showing up and always bringing that heart and that insight to everything.
 
Theoharis: [00:20:18] And there were other folks. Owen Roger's, you know, was surely another leader that was a part of the Poverty Scholars program. We had started working with Roger's—in the Potter's Field campaign, and especially around gaining access to Hart island and to doing memorial services there. He would visit congregations with us, and engage in other kinds of organizing work. As well as he would come also to the strategic dialogs. I don't remember as much getting to travel with Roger's myself personally, but I think maybe others would have those memories.
 
Theoharis: [00:21:13] He would walk people through a process of understanding the conditions that people were experiencing. But again, also seeing the vision and organizing work that people were doing. It wasn’t, "Look at the situation and let's throw up our hands and be overwhelmed by the state of affairs." But instead, he would inspire folks to roll up our sleeves and say, "Yes, we need to know what's going on and this is what we're going to do, and this is how we have been addressing these issues." And I think, Rogers also led delegations of students, both to do abandoned housing counts, as well as some of the different actions that Picture the Homeless would be doing, including sleep-outs, and other kinds of actions.
 
Theoharis: [00:22:16] And I remember various different students being deeply impacted by getting to be a part of some of that organizing work, you know? Whether it was an action or whether it was research, or whether it was trying to expose to the general public what's going on and what people are doing about it. He was always leading people somewhere. Those are my main memories of Rogers… He was on the go; he was busy, and he had people following him wherever he was going. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [00:22:54] You know, one of the things that Rogers and Arvernetta and Jean all took very seriously, was their responsibility to teach others about their experience of homelessness and poverty and how that was really part of our society, and not outside of it. Or, you know, how sometimes people say, "Oh, that's terrible. That's not who we are." But, this is who we are. We are producing homelessness and poverty. And it meant so much to them to be included in that work—as you know, not just an extension of being part of Picture the Homeless, but just as a civic minded New Yorker. They—they loved that work with you all. It was really important to them. And I hope you know that.
 
Theoharis: That's awesome. Yeah. Well, it was it was mutually, it was mutually important and appreciated.
 
Lewis: I know that—this is... We have a half an hour. Can I squeeze in one more question?
 
Theoharis: Yeah, for sure.
 
Lewis: [00:24:10] So you know it... The experience that Picture the Homeless had working with the Poverty Initiative and the Kairos Center and the Poor People's Campaign now is extremely important to folks on an individual level, and also for the organization and movement building. But I don't want to paint too—too rosy a picture, as if it's so simple. [Smiles] And so as a... You know, as somebody who really intentionally wanted to engage and support the leadership of homeless and poor folks, are there lessons for you that you could share for others, of how to—to sincerely do that and effectively do that?
 
Theoharis: Yeah. There's a lot there, and obviously a part of why I'm so excited that you're working on this project is there are so many lessons that I think the larger society needs to know. The first lesson, perhaps the most important lesson—is that poor and homeless people are capable of—as Willie Baptist will often say, "Thinking for ourselves, speaking for ourselves and leading not just ourselves, but the whole society." And I think this notion really goes against the grain of what we're taught, you know…
 
Theoharis: [00:25:47] We're not taught this in our educational institutions and what we hear in our media institutions is not that poor people and homeless people are capable, and in fact are helping to lead and leading campaigns and organizations and efforts. So, I think on some level that's a lesson that needs to be out there, all the time.
 
Theoharis: [00:26:21] And because people are poor and homeless at the same time as they're leading, there's a lot that that goes into just being able to make it, let alone lead others and suggest the direction the society needs to go in. So I think one of the things that I have been really impacted by in terms of the work that Picture the Homeless does is insisting that you do have to figure out how to meet people's immediate needs, but that people's leadership and organization, doesn't end there. It perhaps starts there. Yes—of course, figure out what it's going to look like to make sure that people have the resources to meet our basic needs whether it's the bus fare or subway fare or whether it's food… Whether it's if folks are living in shelter systems that have all of these rules and regulations that make just living almost impossible. And so you can't take any of that for granted. I mean, just that all of that is the reality, is the backdrop, is the floor that the work happens from.
 
Theoharis: [00:28:19] And so it means you got to have child care for your meetings. It means, you got to have some food or other resources when you gather. Because whatever emergencies happening, you're going to have to put some resources towards that. Whether that's money resources or whether that’s having a network of lawyers and electricians and plumbers, or whatever it is. And I think one of the things that it's also meant is that you kind of take advantage of every opportunity. So it's hard to say no. It's hard to be like, "No, I'm not going to do that." Because you don't know what door that closes. And so, you say yes to a whole lot more, maybe than folks that do have resources, do. Because like, you're trying to take advantage of every opportunity... Whether it's someone that's going to then bring some resources or whether that's someone that's going to be able to advocate for some policy change, or whether that's someone who's going to bring in the next five, ten leaders for the work.
 
Theoharis: [00:29:27] And in this work, you have to treat all people with respect and treat everyone as leaders and potential leaders. You don't have to like wear kid gloves around any leader. But you have to come with your real beliefs, your real experience and throw it into the pot and see what else people are bringing.
 
Theoharis: [00:30:18] So, I think it's a different approach, a more collective approach, to organizing and to leading, and to seeing people's leadership. It’s an approach that calls on everybody to bring who they are and what they're going through to an experience. And not just trying to push those aside, or trying to say that those experiences don't matter. There's some amazing creativity and ingenuity out there, and you can see it by the grassroots leaders who are leading the way to change. But again, [smiles] at least my experience, is that it is a little messy. And it isn’t all perfectly packaged.
 
Theoharis: [00:31:25] Back in the day... This is before I met Picture the Homeless…I used to be a perfectionist. Let's just say, I am not a perfectionist anymore. You can't proclaim, "This is how things are going to be." You have to go with, "This is how we need things to become and however we can pave that way to achieve that, then that's the way we're going to go."
 
Theoharis: [00:31:58] And I think another piece of the multi-tiered way of organizing poor and homeless people is that you walk as you talk. You're doing lots of things at the same time. And so, it's actions or it's press releases or it's studies and research, but you don't get to just do one thing. You're doing a lot of stuff at the same time.
 
Lewis: [00:32:40] You know, one of the things that you all did—in addition to the political education and relationship building that happened in the—kind of the weekends... Sometimes there would be—Arvernetta and Jean or Rogers, would go spend the night. There would be a weekend event... Was also the relationship building—it created space for them to meet with other grassroots leaders, but it also was a respite. Because during that time, as you mentioned—Arvernetta was in a shelter, in a dorm. Jean sometimes was street homeless during those years. And so to have a bed, and have a hot shower, and have good food, and have the respect that goes along with that. To say, you know, “We're investing…” Because it takes money and resources [smiles] to make those things happen. And so, the work that you all put in to doing that, really created the opportunity—not just in the meetings and the formal workshops and stuff, but just being able to relax. Being able to breathe, and being able to be heard, in in a way that is really different than just popping into a meeting.
 
Lewis: [00:34:01] And so the—the light that people would have [smiles] before they would go, and then coming back and the report backs that—that Jean and Arvernetta and Rogers would do... It just, it was like a boost to their spirit. Because I think sometimes we—we put such a kind of a burden on people. The most marginalized folks, yes—can and do lead. But what sacrifices are they making to do that? And how do we alleviate some of that in—in partnership? And you all—the thinking through that you all did to make those things happen, I think was really important. And there's—there's a lot of lessons there, for institutions and organizations who actually want to embrace leadership of folks who are really poor and struggling. What—what are the things that need to happen, so that they actually can bring their whole selves? This is a beautiful example that you all provide.
 
Theoharis: [00:35:16] Yeah. No, it's a good—that's a good reminder that you know, that the world that we're trying to live in, we have to live into it already.
 
Lewis: I really appreciate you. And I appreciate this very much.
 
Theoharis: I appreciate it, too.
 
Lewis: I'm going to transcribe this and send it to you in a… By the end of the month, for you to make sure it's okay.
 
Theoharis: Great. Yeah, totally. Thank you.
 
Lewis: Thank you so much.
 
Theoharis: All right. Have a good one.
 
Lewis: All right. Take care. Bye.

[End of Interview]