Rev. Liz Theoharis (Interview 1)

Lewis: [00:00:02] Good morning.
 
Theoharis: Good morning.
 
Lewis: It is November 12th, 2019, and I’m Lynn Lewis, here with the Reverend Liz Theoharis and we are going to talk about Jean Rice. This is an interview for the Jean Rice Story—that is deeply intertwined with Picture the Homeless and the Kairos Center. And so, we're going to cover a lot of ground this morning! How are you?
 
Theoharis: I'm really good, thanks.
 
Lewis: [00:00:36] Good. So we can get to know you a little better, could you share where you're from, where you grew up?
 
Theoharis: Sure. So I grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I'm a granddaughter of immigrants. My mom's family came to the United States fleeing the Armenian genocide and made their way to Highland Park, Michigan—where Ford had opened up a factory offering jobs at five dollars a day. My dad's family had fled poverty in the mountains of Greece and come here illegally in order to try to search for an American dream that really, my family never found. So, I was raised by really social justice-oriented parents and a family. So, I was going to protests as a baby, as a young person. And I was really involved in my church and faith based social justice work. And so, you know—as a child and as a teenager, as the kind of homelessness epidemic starts to rear its head in the United States, where economic homelessness starts to become a reality in so many places, my family was pretty involved in Milwaukee in organizing around those issues. 
 
Theoharis: [00:02:26] And I was raised to know that charity wasn't the solution. So you know, I'd go to my public school, and we'd be doing a food drive and my mom would be like, “Fine, you should do that. You should make sure that you have people who need food come and be very present in your school talking about change, not just charity. And you should know that you should never be proud of yourself for raising money or cans, when we're living in a society that shouldn't have hunger, shouldn't have homelessness.” And so, that was always—you know, that was my upbringing. My father, you know—the way he was political was that my father was the foremost critical—critic of the FBI and surveilling activists. We would talk around the dinner table, you know—in different actions, about the US's role all around the world and in the United States of trying to counter things like the Poor People's campaign, like the Black Panthers, like... And so, I was raised both with this kind of faith perspective of how you honor, and worship God is by doing social justice, and by this kind of historical political perspective of when times are—when change is called for, that it's not easy.
 
Theoharis: [00:04:23] And I was raised in a family that, that struggled, that also felt the impacts of bankruptcy, of poverty, of inequality and hardship. So, I remember organizing poverty awareness and homeless awareness weeks where I would try to team up with homeless folk and other people that were organizing in Milwaukee in the ‘80s and the ‘90s. And then I moved to Philadelphia to go to college, in 1994. And the first night of being in Philadelphia for like, a pre-orientation program, I met leaders from the National Union of the Homeless and the Philadelphia-Delaware Valley Union of the Homeless. And basically found my home and community and church in the Homeless Union of Philadelphia, you know—again, throughout the whole ‘90s.  
 
Lewis: [00:05:46] That's amazing. And you know, we talk about privilege a lot and when I hear you, I'm thinking how privileged you were to grow up [smiles] in that kind of environment and receiving that education.
 
Theoharis: [00:06:00] I was incredibly lucky, right? I mean, so I had in my home as a young person, folks like Bishop Tutu from South Africa, staying with us when he came to Milwaukee to try to organize people against Apartheid, but also make the connections of the racism and inequality and poverty that folks were experiencing here. I had folks from Central America stay with me. And so, I always knew—like, I was only ever introduced to faith that is directly connected to doing social justice work. Like I—I didn’t… Those were just the same, one and the same, for me. And I feel very lucky for that, and the kinds of things that I was exposed to—of people organizing against the privatization of our public schools, of families that were hungry and homeless who were trying to fight for a better life. You know, welfare rights organizing. You know, I get really involved in Philadelphia in welfare rights organizing. But I was really introduced to it back home in Milwaukee, where there were welfare moms who were organizing and, talking out against the welfare cuts and the other kind of social program cuts. And so, I—again, I don't remember a time in my life when I wasn't going to protests, when I didn't have an awareness that the world was really big and had lots of people in it, there were lots of injustice in it and there were lots of people coming together to do something about that and that it was absolutely my responsibility to be in the numbers of people that were, you know—fighting for justice.
 
Lewis: [00:07:49] You know, we—before we started the interview as—we’re both moms, and we were talking about also taking, including our children, because it's hard to separate our lives from this kind of work.
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: And so, when you were a little girl [smiles] were you one of the kind of kids that we talked about that liked to be all up in this kind of stuff?
 
Theoharis: I don't really remember if I liked it. But it was definitely what I did. [Smiles] Like, and so—in that way, I must have loved it, right? Because I mean—so, I had this little bag that I carried around that had a Winnie the Pooh coloring book and a bouncy ball, and I would go to meetings! And I would just sit there and play and listen. And those would be meetings around, you know—peace programs across the world, and there would be meetings about poverty and racism in the public schools in Milwaukee and they would be about building a rainbow coalition of poor people. I mean, and you know, it must have… That was who I was and who I was raised among, and I got to meet all kinds of people. I remember having folks from the Soviet Union when it was still the Soviet Union, staying at my house and this Russian woman like, braid my hair and just thinking it was the prettiest thing I had ever seen! Because I hadn't been anywhere, right? We didn't have the resources to travel but I had all these folks from around the world that—and from around the country who would come in, and talk about their reality and talk about the wars that were being waged in their countries, and talk about the level of poverty and inequality in this country. And just, so that's what I knew. That's what I was exposed to, and I surely am trying to raise my kids in the same way. And I'm a part of a movement so I get to, you know? My kids get to see just like, all kinds of different people and that they're the people that take care of them and they're the people that love them and care for them.
 
Lewis: [00:10:17] What was the faith community that your family was involved with that, you know—would allow you all to meet Desmond Tutu and Central American refugees?
 
Theoharis: So, I was raised in the Presbyterian Church. And I attended North Shore Presbyterian Church in Sherwood, Wisconsin, my whole growing up. But it wasn't that much my church… I mean, we were very active in my church and would run different programs where we tried to get our church involved in these larger issues around the city and around the state and around the country and world. But my mom had gotten connected—so, we'd been trying to actually do some of this history, too—of just like documenting some of the activism that my mom was involved in, especially this kind of faith based. Because a lot of times I think what's forgotten, especially in the last forty, fifty years, is this rise of people of faith who have been at the forefront of social movements around the world. But that's not what's documented as religious organizing. Right? You know, what's understood as people of faith doing work over the past fifty years is this rise of the extremists and religious right or whatever, kind of in quotes, I would say that.
 
Theoharis: [00:12:02] When at the same time, there's just been this prophetic movement of folk—who because of texts and tradition, are compelled to do justice work. And that’s true of the anti-apartheid movement. That was true of the Central American civil wars and U.S. backed… All kinds of bad stuff. And so, my mom got involved in interfaith community in Milwaukee, of people from lots of walks of life, many of them struggling themselves, and kind of built an interfaith community of activists who were at the forefront of peace and justice issues—nuclear disarmament, but also hunger and homelessness and inequality and poverty and schools. And so that was kind of where I was raised. So, we would be involved in political campaigns, and we would be involved in protests against the Iraq war. And you know, whatever was happening around the world, there was a community of people—again, a real diverse community of people in Milwaukee, and we just got to be in that. That was just who I was raised among.
 
Theoharis: [00:13:30] And—and having now lived in New York City for almost twenty years, there is a strong interfaith community. But the grassroots interfaith community of Milwaukee was so much more on the cutting edge of work. And it was so much more, just people being compelled to partner with Jewish folks and Christian folk and a Sikh community and Buddhists… I mean, it was just regular people who either—folks in the countries they came from or in the communities they were living in, were being impacted by issues and then saying, “This isn't right. We got to do something about that.” And so, I actually really learned a lot from that kind of interfaith community in Milwaukee on some level, probably more than in these more developed cities that have really big interfaith coalitions. We had this little Interfaith Conference of Greater Milwaukee, and it was just always out there on justice issues.
 
Lewis: [00:14:38] I think this—it’s is so important, you know—this story and this narrative that you are teaching about because there is a history of resistance all over this country that I think the powers that be don't want folks to know about. And so, we know about the religious right, but we don't hear about the religious left
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: as much. And, you know—if we don't know that there's a history to build on, then sometimes we feel isolated. And I also think there's condescension about the country as a whole, outside of certain areas, you know. So, if you’re in New York or you’re on the West Coast… But that this history of resistance “doesn’t exist”
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: in places like Milwaukee, and these stories are very important.
 
Theoharis: [00:15:42] You know, I really think, I mean just like—in the middle of the heartland of this country you just found these totally diverse, radical folk who just were resisting empire and doing so because it's the right thing to do and because our families are gonna otherwise be deported or like, there's gonna be civil war here or there’s gonna… Or, another family member is going to experience poverty and homelessness. You know what I mean? Like, it's not only out of people’s minds and ideologies that they get involved. It's out of people's lived experience that says, it doesn't have to be this way—and how to... That happens in the Milwaukee’s, it happens in the Montgomery’s, it happens in... And I think again, a lot of times it's not where we look, but it is where these kind of movements grow and take shape and take hold.
 
Lewis: [00:16:45] And it's not people's paid jobs doing that. So I’m sure all these meetings, people had… What kind of work did your mom do, for example?
 
Theoharis: Yeah. So, my mom was a teacher. And then, she sometimes would get odd jobs, like with the church or with the National Council of Churches and then she got to be an activist a bunch, but was never paid, and it was never... And my father was also a teacher and was an author. And so, he got to kind of, make his job be relevant to the issues that our family was concerned about, but also, he had to teach random history courses and that kind of stuff. [Smiles] But again, yeah—it's just like people do this because it's the right thing to do, or because it's necessary or because we we’re compelled into doing it, not because some nonprofit has been set up to do it.
 
Lewis: [00:17:50] And do you have brothers and sisters?
 
Theoharis: I do. I'm the youngest in my family. I have a sister and a brother. So, my sister lives in Brooklyn. She's a professor at Brooklyn College and does a lot of documenting of freedom movements of the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s, and their relevance for today. And my brother—he’s also, I have a bunch of people that are in academia in my life. My brother was a teacher—a kindergarten teacher and a principal and then now is a professor, teaching Education Administration. He lives up in Syracuse. My parents live with him because they can't take care of themselves anymore, and so my brother has them.
 
Lewis: [00:18:36] And so, you went to Philly to go to college?
 
Theoharis: I did. I did.
 
Lewis: So, what was that like?
 
Theoharis: I moved to Philadelphia and again like, on some level—like, unbelievably fortunately, I met the Union of the Homeless [smiles] and a student group called Empty the Shelters. It was Empty the Shelters/Fill the Homes, and it was kind of a group of students who had gotten kind of politicized by the poverty and homelessness, kind of rise—but especially from poor people and homeless people organizing, and… So, you know—almost immediately. So, I was at college at this elite place. I was on a lot of financial aid. I had to work full-time just to stay in college and all of a sudden there was all these people that had all these resources around me, like, it just... 
 
Theoharis: [00:19:42] And so, I found this family and home in this kind of, ragtag group of homeless folk and poor folk who I got to just be with, and I got to organize with, and I got to... So, I started first, you know—going into homeless shelters and registering people to vote and organizing and talking to people about the issues that they were having. And it was, right also as—like some of the precursor to welfare reform laws are happening. And so there’s General Assistance cuts and Medicaid cuts, and so... Also, at the time, out of some of the rise and demise of the Homeless Union in Philadelphia and across the country, comes the Kensington Welfare Rights Union. So I got involved living in tent cities with people and organizing students from seven or eight or ten colleges in the area to like partner with poor and homeless people and organize. And just so much of my college experience is also an experience organizing amongst homeless people, in different parts of Philadelphia.
 
Theoharis: [00:21:02] But especially, as I become the assistant education director of the Kensington Welfare Rights Union, we are in the process of setting up these tent cities and homeless takeovers—housing takeovers and building takeovers and a church takeover. All of that happens in ‘94, ‘95, ‘96. And so, just a lot of my work was doing security at tent cities and taking kids to school and organizing protests for affordable housing and trying to do homeless counts and trying to, you know—show the fact that there were more abandoned houses in Philadelphia at the time than there were homeless people. Because it would challenge a system of private property, people couldn't be in those homes. We would move people into the abandoned homes! Especially the ones that were owned by Housing and Urban Development, where they were supposed to be being utilized by folks that were homeless, or struggling to afford housing.
 
Theoharis: [00:22:10] You know, when I was doing that work, the affordable housing list was eighteen years long. So, someone could be born into a family that didn't have housing and needed affordable housing and they would be—they would age out of their family before a unit would be available to them. And so, but again! In a city that like, had all of this abandoned housing and some of it was really nice luxury housing. Some of it, you know, was—because the real estate agencies had let it be vacant, it had—some of it had become in less good condition. Not because of the community, but because of the real estate agencies.
 
Lewis: [00:23:08] So when you're—when you're in Philadelphia, are you reflecting on these relationships and these folks that you had met from struggles, like Bishop Tutu? Are you—are they in your mind? Are you reflecting on stories that you heard them tell when you moved into actively resisting empire yourself?
 
Theoharis: Right. I mean, definitely! And again, I didn't go to church when I moved to Philadelphia because I saw the irony and the contradictions of so many of the churches that were so complicit in blaming poor people for people's own situations. You know, basically calling poor people sinners instead of coming out against poverty being a sin, right? But, my upbringing, both in activism and in faith-based activism, would just—constantly arose, right? Where, you know—one of the biblical passages that had been really inspiring to me my whole growing up, was from Micah 6:8. It's says, "What does the Lord require of you but to do justice and love, kindness, and walk humbly with your God." And in some ways it's like this way of organizing one's life, right? That like, what God cares about is justice, kindness or acts of mercy or of social uplift, and honoring and worshiping God by working with your neighbor, your immigrant neighbor, your, you know—whatever. And so I would look at passages like that and teachings that I had heard from these faith-based activists from all around the world and apply—like see, like in a system and a city where over the past thirty years, four hundred thousand jobs had left. In a city where—you know again, it was, like in Kensington where I was doing a lot of the work, the two main sources of income were welfare and drugs because the corporations and the politicians had just abandoned people, right? And so, those contradictions, like, from my faith and from the reality of what we were living, just like—it didn't make sense.
 
Theoharis: [00:25:42] And then also, I had met folk from Brazil who had done these really big housing, building takeovers and so, we were doing something similar amongst homeless folk here. And then in 1996 and ‘7, we move into this abandoned church, St. Edward's Catholic Church. We had been having folks live, and we had been living—I had been living, in a tent city at Fourth and Lehigh right in the heart of the kind of, industrial quarter of northeast Philadelphia. But it was getting cold, and rats started to come into our camps, you know. And what we had seen was that the Catholic Church had closed down nine churches, just in a very short period of time, a period of months. At the same time that the Archdiocese had come out in saying that caring for the poor was one of the biggest mandates of the church. But—and they had closed down these churches, only in poor communities, not in most cases because there weren't people go to those churches, but because those churches were costing them too much money. Like, people weren't paying enough dues in their churches to keep the church running. And so, this church that we moved into, folk actually in the community prayed outside of their church every Sunday because it had been closed, not because they weren't faithful, but because the church couldn't make money off of them.
 
Theoharis: [00:27:27] And so—so that also, you know—and just the words of Tutu and the experience of folks from Latin America and the contradiction of us declaring war in Iraq because of wanting the oil… All of that, it's all just in there, right? Like, you get to see that the same kind of lies about why we're trying to wreak havoc across the world as a nation, is what is happening to people in this country, too. And that you can see the connection between my debt and someone's homelessness and, you know—where else in the world there's injustice, right—and that these are really linked. So that, helped to shape my understanding of like—okay, well this is going to take a movement. That these problems are so big that it's going to take people, especially those that are most impacted by these problems, coming together and building actual political power, actual influence, so we can challenge and change this reality.  
 
Lewis: [00:28:51] So, here you're deeply connected to social movements around the world, in the U.S. but you're a young white college student.
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: and you know—could you share maybe a story about how you were able to integrate yourself into those struggles in Philly
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: where people may not have known that you're from a working-class background?
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: Often the assumption is when somebody is a young, white, fresh faced college student
 
Theoharis: Right.
 
Lewis: and it sounds like at this school you went to was—you know, cost money, and you had to work full-time to even go there, but the relationships that you built…
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: You know, are there lessons that you want to share so people could maybe learn from some of those?  
 
Theoharis: Yeah. I mean to me—this is really where the fact that I met and was welcomed into a movement of homeless people, made all the difference. So, you know, the person I met that first night when I moved to Philadelphia—there were a couple, but one of them was Ron Casanova. Who had been homeless from the age of eight or twelve, on the streets of New York, had been politicized by the rebellion in Tompkins Square [park] and who had assumed leadership in both the Tompkins Square tent city and then the larger kind of Homeless Union. And so, he’s who helps recruit me, into this work. And he says these things that make so much more sense of the world than anything else, right? And so, it's just clear to me that I've got to associate myself with this guy. Because, like—he's talking about the kind of contradictions, and again—he sounds like these leaders that I've met from all over the world, right?
 
Theoharis: [00:31:07] And so—and the thing about Cass was that he just felt like everybody had a role to play in this work. And you know, sure, he saw a difference. Sure, he didn't try to ignore that difference, right? Like, he didn't say, “Oh, as a HIV positive African American, Puerto Rican, formerly homeless man…” That his experience was the same as a young white woman who is going to college. Like, you know, he—but he also said, “There's room for everybody in this. And not just room, that we need people in this.” And so, I spent a lot of time just learning and listening from people, especially from these leaders in the Homeless Union and in the Welfare Rights Union.
 
Theoharis: [00:32:00] And I would just—you know, I would go and play whatever role needed to be played. Like so, sometimes that was security at a tent city, sometimes that was speaking out at a protest, sometimes that was babysitting kids, sometimes that was finding [smiles] what I could find on the campus, to bring into the community. So I would illegally take community service vans and then move people's stuff and go forage for couches because someone else was moving into an abandoned house, or go and pick up free donated food that was going to just be thrown out from the food distribution center. And so, I just played whatever role needed to be played and I did it with whoever else was prepared to do it. And so, sometimes that was other folks that were at colleges and sometimes it was, you know—that I would go and recruit people from these nine colleges. And then, sometimes it was folks that were my age, but with a kid and living on the streets. And sometimes it was people that was totally different from me. And so—but… But I did that for years, just for years. Like, I would just show up, and like figure out, “Okay, what are we doing today?!” “Oh, we're doing a search for affordable housing today!” “Okay we'll bring the—we're going to invite the media, and we going to go to the Office of Emergency Services in Philadelphia, and we're going to find out what's the process today, because they're going to change it all the time, of signing up for shelter, right? And okay, and then we're going to follow what they say to do.” And so, you know—it just was always different. But it was, you know—and the people came in and out and different folks were around...
 
Theoharis: [00:33:59] And then I think, at some point people started realizing that I wasn't going anywhere. You know, just that like—this was [laughs] you know—like, this was where I was going to be. This was what we were all needing to do, and called to be at, and so I think… You know, and  then what would happen is that people would start sharing different parts of people's stories. And so, I would share about various aspects of my life and definitely found more similarities with both the students and the homeless folk who were doing this kind of organizing work, than I did with my classmates, right? And then also there, you know—but then, I also saw differences and that was all good, too. And people made a lot of mistakes, you know. Especially—I mean we were organizing all of these students into a relationship with organized poor people. And so, folks sometimes used sometimes, their positioning and sometimes the access to resources they had and, you know—people would mess up! And so, that also was a part of the learning, and a part of also just—okay, people would mess up and then we would still be here. You know, like…  
 
Theoharis: [00:35:31] You know, I remember this one young person I had recruited from Swarthmore College. So, it's a super elite school, and I asked him to come and basically do security at an abandoned house, a homeless take-over house. And he's sitting out front and he's like playing with his watch, and one of the leaders in our work—but who also had some addiction problems, comes up. And he's just like, "What are you doing here?" And then like, takes his watch, takes all of this stuff from him, and then has to—makes this young person pay him, to get his stuff back from him. And I'm just like, "Aw, shit! What a…? What!?" But then you're like, “Oh, well, good!” Like, it's fine that he had to pay twenty dollars to get his coat and his watch back, and like—because he's going to learn that like—that was a dumb ass move, you know? Like [Laughs]—you know? And also like, fine. But so, there would just be lots of things like that.  
 
Theoharis: [00:36:33] Or people would try to go out. I mean, I never was someone that was that interested in partying but some of the young people would want to. And like, then you're partying in North Philadelphia and sometimes that's not—that’s not good, you know? Folks have addiction issues. Like, you know—we had a very strict policy of not having folks drink or use drugs when they were in organization—organized activities, especially things like encampments, especially like things like protests. I mean, what people did otherwise in their lives, you know? But when it was as a group and the police were already cracking down on us. So sometimes, some of my friends and colleagues would just do stupid stuff, but I just never went anywhere, you know? I was just there. And so, to me, I just think there is a role for everybody in this work and everybody might not be called to do the same work, but...
 
Lewis: [00:37:44] You mentioned the—you had made a reference to the words of Bishop Tutu and then later you made a reference to things that Ron Casanova said. Do you remember, are there specific words you think of with both of those folks?
 
Theoharis: So, I think it's less the words and it's more the overall life lessons and feeling of things. So, what I remember of Bishop Tutu being in my house and like writing us a little thank you note for hosting him and being at events with him. It was just like the kind of care that he gave and the appreciation—not for anything—any particular acts that we did, but just for being in struggle together. And just—kind of would have little lessons, and I don't even remember exactly what those were. I just remember them being like, this is how you're supposed to live your life. Like, you're supposed to be in community with people and you're supposed to live out your beliefs—[becomes emotional, nearly crying] and that's exactly how Cass was, right?
 
Theoharis: [00:39:04] And so, you know—from little things. Like I remember the first time I went out to a diner with Cass. And I don't think he was actually currently homeless at that time. But he was living in a house that the Union had won and had a bunch of folks living there. But he never was gonna forget living on the streets, right? And so, I remember us going into this diner and it was cold. And so, it was cold inside this diner too—and him just saying, "You gotta take your jacket off." And I was just like, “Cass, I'm tired, I'm cold, I have to warm up.” He's like, “It's always colder outside.” And just like these kinds of things, of like—and so it was kind of like a little lesson, and just like—advice. And then we would get into this bigger conversation about what kind of society we're trying to live in and how we're supposed to take care of each other. And I just remember this kind of parallel between some of these activists and leaders that I had met as a kid and how Cass and others kind of went through the world, moved through the world.
 
Lewis: [00:40:14] No, I think it's really fascinating for people like you who—draw comparisons between, you know, someone like Bishop Tutu, who is a Nobel Prize winner and risked his life and all the things that he represents and how he lived, and drawing like a parallel between him and somebody who was a homeless revolutionary
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: like Ron Casanova, and that they're kind of in maybe in different movement locations, but...  
 
Theoharis: But playing a similar role and having a similar prophetic witness and life that they're leading and calling others to step into.
 
Lewis: And they both fed you! They both
 
Theoharis: For sure.
 
Lewis: influenced you. So you have all of that. And, so there was Ron, and who were some of the other early Homeless Union leaders that you met?
 
Theoharis: [00:41:23] Yeah, I mean so, I met—that same first night, I also met this young woman who was a student at the time, or maybe had just graduated from college. Her name was Kathleen Sullivan. And she, later that spring—so that was in the fall. Later the following spring, she was—she was killed by a drunk driver when she was biking back from a Welfare Rights Union meeting. And it was a little bit of funny business, where she was... It was a drunk driver who killed her, but the cops had been following that drunk driver for a while and had not pulled him over and had not… And then it resulted, you know—in her death. And she had been, on some level like, one of the students from Empty the Shelters who had kind of, fully dedicated herself to this movement of the poor, and just... So she was the first full-time, kind of organizer that came out of Empty the Shelters, with the Welfare Rights Union. And so, she was working odd jobs to pay her bills, but—so she wasn't like a paid organizer, because we didn't have any paid organizers. [Smiles] But she was someone who had just totally thrown her lot in with this group of welfare moms and homeless people.
 
Theoharis: [00:43:00] And so, she was someone who—and I remember her that first night, like just  speaking about some realities that were just—that just really struck me as realizations that I’d… For instance, I go to college, and I had to start using a computer. At that time, the word homelessness wasn't in the dictionary—the spell check dictionary. So, it would come up as a non-existent word, right?  The same with farmworkers, like it wasn't a word, in the dictionary. And on some level, the reason that homelessness wasn't, was because the kind of level and scope of homelessness as now exists, was new then. And so, I just remember Kathleen like saying—talking about that. And like, no one in my life had ever noticed that, otherwise, right? I mean, and I—I was no computer literate person, but like—but just the fact that there's this massive homelessness happening in our society and the dictionary doesn't even know the word homelessness, and like... So, I just remember her speaking to that. She was talking about this simple notion that like—that can be summed up in the words of Frederick Douglass as, "Those in pain know when their pain is relieved.” Right? Like, "Those who would be free must strike the first blow."  
 
Theoharis: [00:44:33] And, you know—an idea that, that now is totally at the center of the work we do, of that we need to build a movement and it needs to be led by those that are most impacted by these injustices. But the way that she just put it out there, I'm not sure I had heard that before. I mean, obviously, on some level I had because I was connected to movements that were being led by those that are most impacted. And it's not just that people had good ideas and we're trying to help other people, but who are compelled—including my family, including our neighbors, including the activists, you know—coming out of these movements that I had connected up with. But still, like her—but Kathleen kind of talking about the notion of ending poverty, the notion of ending homelessness and the role that poor homeless people had to play in that—and so, I remember her as well. I then, you know—I met very early on, both Willie Baptist and his wife, Joannie. And Joannie was really, really influential in terms of keeping me in the work, like even when stuff would just be hard and awkward. I mean, [smiles] because organizing amongst homeless people is hard and awkward at times, right? Like...
 
Lewis: [00:45:54] Could you share a hard and awkward story?
 
Theoharis: Yeah, I remember doing—so I’m doing security at this one tent city. And it's at the heart of where journalists at some point, kind of basically do this expose. That like, the most pure heroin in the entire country is being sold from—it’s just like right in the middle of this northeast corridor. It’s where all these drugs are coming in and out. And again, there's all kinds of folks in Philadelphia that are using drugs, but they—they want to go to a poor community to buy them, right? And so, this is right off the highway. So we’re—but you know—I'm a midwestern girl from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, like… And I'm doing security in this multiracial, poor place. And again, even if I've known some hardship in my life, this is still different than my experiences, right? And I'm doing security in a community that is heavily armed. And, in a community, where the relationship with the police is not a good one. Where we—we actually knew that cops were sending addicts into our tent cities, just to be disruptive. Where cops were taking kids out from their families, like just to mess with moms who would dare to organize against the system, right? So, all those contradictions and I'm supposed to be doing security, right? Like, I was raised by a pacifist!  
 
Theoharis: [00:47:47] And, I mean—I remember leaving at two or three in the morning, leaving and just not understanding anything that's going on. I’m just like—and basically, like not being able to find a bathroom, having to pee illegally around the side, like—getting caught and just being like, “What the hell?!” Like, what the hell is this? Like, what—you know, what kind of society are we living in? Why does this kind of inequality and poverty exist and why is it that the cops are playing this role? Why is it that the businesses are playing this role? Why is it that City Hall is playing this role? Just like, all of those things just coming into their contradictions as I'm doing something that's just, you know—out of my experience and comfort zone and on some level, abilities. Like, really, what am I going to do if someone shows up… Like they would sometimes in our tent cities, with a trunk full of weapons? Like, what am I going to do, right? And so, that just got to be my experience for years. Or getting pulled over when we went to the food distribution center, because we have fake license plates, trying to drive a stick shift car that I don't know how to drive and that being the only vehicle that we have, and it being impounded because we're trying to go get food to pass out in the community. And then, finally making it back into the community and the food that we got donated was like, bok choy and we're in a Puerto Rican neighborhood and trying to teach Puerto Ricans how they're gonna cook bok choy, because at least it's some fresh food! You know, but like… This, right—this is what organizing amongst poor and homeless people is. Like the beauty of it, right? Like, how great is it we are starting—you know, we brought some of the poor Asians from the community out to teach Puerto Ricans how to cook bok choy. But also, what kind of society is this? Like, why—why don't people have food? Like, why are the cops this way? Why? Why? Why? Why? You know.
 
Lewis: And so, even though you were aware of all of the—or at least many of the risks that you were taking, it doesn't seem like anything bad happened [smiles] that you weren't able to survive.
 
Theoharis: Yeah, that's right. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [00:50:34] And there were many lessons, and you're still in it. And so, what were you studying in college while you were learning all this stuff in…  
 
Theoharis: Yeah, I ended up being an Urban Studies major with a minor, or a concentration, in Latin American studies and African American studies. And on some level, it was because it was with people in those departments that I could find allies and colleagues and thinking partners about like, what does it look like to take on these issues? And so… I mean, I don't know what I thought I was going to study, when I went to college. But, you know—what I end up studying and majoring in and doing, is heavily influenced by the work. And then, I graduated and the week after I graduated from college, we—the Kensington Welfare Rights Union, went on a thirty-five town and city bus tour. It was called the New Freedom Bus: Freedom from Unemployment, Hunger, and Homelessness. And so, that also shapes what I end up doing. So… I kind of was propelled into a leadership role of trying to weave together a network of poor people’s groups, right when I graduate from college. And so, again, I work odd jobs—you know, I've always kind of worked different jobs throughout my life. And so, I was fine, just working in fast food or finding places that would pay me a little bit of money to do something, or… So, my whole experience gets really shaped by this work, where what I choose to study and what I end up doing right when I graduate as well as going to temp agencies and working crappy jobs that way, is totally influenced by all of this.
 
Lewis: [00:52:48] And so, [clears throat, sorry] you were—did you say you were the assistant director of education for the Kensington Welfare Rights Union? What was that? What did you do? Was that part of that role?
 
Theoharis: It was, or it becomes that role. So, we did this bus tour. We met up with, you know—in the course of thirty days we went to thirty-five different towns and cities, and saw… And this is in the wake of NAFTA and welfare reform—and trying to see, like—are there other groups out there? And again, obviously, we had some knowledge that there were because I'd been a part of the Homeless Union where we had twenty-five chapters across the country. I was a part of the Welfare Rights Union nationally, where we had chapters all over the country. But this was a little bit different. It was a little bit like, you know—trying to weave together groups that are working on health care, with low wage work, with farm work, with homelessness. And so, we kind of do that and then we come back.
 
Theoharis: [00:54:00] And I'm asked to organize this Poor People's summit, that we hold at Temple University in 1998, where we kind of form this new network of poor people's groups. And so, as we do that, Willie Baptist and I are working very, very closely together. And so, he's the education director of the Kensington Welfare Rights Union and he kind of takes me under his wing. And the two of us start traveling around the country and forming this network and then also organizing what become the next big activities, on a national level that we do. There's a March of the Americas, where we march from Washington, D.C., after filing a petition indicting the U.S. government for human rights violations because of poverty and welfare reform. We do these other bus tours... And so, through all of that, I’m like—Willie and I are paired together and so, I'm his assistant education director and much of—so we're doing a lot of organizing work, but we're also doing a lot of leadership development, political education work.
 
Theoharis: [00:55:09] Because, what we found—both in Philadelphia amongst the Homeless Union and the Welfare Rights Union, but also and in these other groups across the country, is that without some level of political education, without some level of identifying and supporting leaders, especially leaders who are currently homeless, currently poor, currently going through crises, that there's a lot of in and out, right? There's a lot of folks that get involved, want to be involved, but can't stay in the leadership roles that people need to play, for us to actually be effective and strategic. And so, that's also why Willie has me come on as the assistant education director, so that the organizing work that I'm doing kind of on a national level has this real theme of leadership development and political education to it.
 
Lewis: [00:56:05] That was all leading up to the Housing Now! march?
 
Theoharis: Yeah. So, Housing Now! had been, kind of in the middle of all this. So, Housing Now! I think was in '89. And so, this is all also like in the '90s into '99. And so, I had met folk, because my family had gone to D.C. for the Housing Now! March, and the Exodus March, which was homeless folks coming down from New England and—and making their way to D.C., and demanding to be on the stage. So I had, as a young person, as a teenager, I had been in Milwaukee, through all of that. And so then, I met Cass, who was one of the people that speaks at Housing Now! Again, my first day in Philadelphia. And so all of that is just kind of—it all kind of just comes together, right. It all just like—just these different paths of my life, all—all converge. And so, that's kind of amazing.
 
Lewis: Yeah, I get caught up in the story, but it's true. Housing Now! Was in '88, or '89.
 
Theoharis: I think it's '89. I think it was thirty years ago, last month.
 
Lewis: [00:57:26] I think, for the RNC in 2004, were you part of that? There was the…
 
Theoharis: Yeah, so we set up a Bushville, in Bed Stuy.
 
Lewis: We went out there with Willie.
 
Theoharis: Yes. And so, I was living in New York at the time. I came to seminary in 2001. And part of why I came to seminary, is that I was basically sent to seminary at Union, by the movement. Like, to think about this question of the religious response to these problems. To think about, how do we actually sustain organizing amongst the poor and homeless? And what role can religious communities play in that? What lessons are there? And so, I was living in Philadelphia… I mean, so I had been living in Philadelphia, I moved to New York to go to seminary. I started the Poverty Initiative in 2002, 2003. So that then, when the RNC is coming to New York, I was one of the main hosts of poor people from across the country. So, we find this space in Bed Stuy and we set up a tent city and we organize a really big march. And we had done so for the 2000 RNC as well in Philadelphia, because that's where it had been, and so… That was right before I had gone to seminary, and so it was kind of... So yeah, so in 2004, it becomes us trying to show this problem of poverty and homelessness and use the RNC to do so.
 
Lewis: [00:59:02] So, when you say you were sent by the movement to seminary, what was that? Talk about that.
 
Theoharis: Yeah. I mean so—so, we were trying to crack this nut of how do you actually build a broad based, sustainable movement of poor people? And there's some level where the Bible tells stories [smiles] of that exact notion, right? You know, where the Bible is really a collection of stories of poor people organizing with God on their side and figuring out how to grow and build. But then also, in any of the activities, any of the organizing work—we had, we would always be hosted by churches, right? I mean, usually our offices were in churches. A lot of times when poor people started to organize and they would reach out to us, I would call a local church and say, “Would you have office space that you would donate for this homeless group, or for this group that's struggling around health care, or this deaf and blind organization?” You know, so there was some notion that to crack this nut of building a sustainable, broad based movement of the poor, there was a religious aspect to it, both ideologically but then also materially. [Laughs] And so, I had been raised in a deeply religious family. I had come to this work from a kind of Christian values perspective. When we did these marches and these bus tours, who would welcome us in, including in New York City, was Union Seminary, and the Riverside Church, and Judson Memorial Church, and like, a bunch of places like that.
 
Theoharis: [01:00:59] And so… And then, part of how I made a living, once I wasn't getting work study after I'd finished college, and before I went to seminary, was that one of the things I did, was I did a bunch of consulting for the National Council of Churches because of all the experience, organizing amongst the poor. And so, then I had kind of been reintroduced to a bunch of Christian communities, and seeing that even though those contradictions and those limitations were there—of people like [smiles] handing canned goods to homeless folk, you know—and other things that were just infuriating… But, what also was the case was—there were just really beautiful people in small towns and rural areas and big cities across the country, that were trying to build a movement. And some of them had that language and a lot of them didn't. But they wanted to be a part of something that really took on this problem of poverty. And so, I would talk to Willie, I would talk to other leaders in our work, and it kind of just became clear that we needed to figure out some of these religious questions.
 
Theoharis: [01:02:20] And so, I said, “Maybe I should go to seminary.” And folks were like, “Yeah, we basically need you to.” And so, I started at Union in the Fall of 2001, and I needed to work and make money. And at the same time, I was still traveling around the country with Willie and building out this Poor People's Economic Human Rights Campaign, this University of the Poor, of this bigger network. I started also doing a work study position with Paul Chapman at the Employment Project, that was housed at Judson Memorial Church. And I followed my friend and colleague, Caitlin Baker, who had been a part of the Homeless Union, and had gone to Union.  And then when I started to realize that my call was a religious call, and when Willie and the movement started to think about me going to seminary, it just made sense for me to basically follow Caitlin to Union.
 
Theoharis: [01:03:29] And so then, that's where we start to plan and scheme to establish the Poverty Initiative. And it's also where I meet Anthony Williams, and Picture the Homeless, you know—definitely, early, early, early on. I think both before I come to New York, and then also once I'm in New York, for seminary. And what I know about Picture the Homeless at that point, is that it seems to be pretty similar to some of the work with the Homeless Union I had done. And you know, when I come to New York, Cass at this point is back in New York, and so also, I get to do lots of organizing again with him.
 
Lewis: [01:04:16] So you know—Judson, the Employment Project—the office that they had,
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: is the office that Picture the Homeless had,
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: because they were leaving, and I guess moved to Union.
 
Theoharis: yeah.
 
Lewis: and Anthony and Lewis had approached Peter Laarman
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: about office space, because Picture the Homeless had no office space. And were recommended by Chino Garcia
 
Theoharis: Ahhhhhhh!
 
Lewis: from CHARAS to talk to Judson
 
Theoharis: Okay.
 
Lewis: because we'd been having meetings at CHARAS but didn't have an office space.
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And for folks that are listening, [smiles] just for context, there actually—people were organizing before there were cell phones, and internet and email. [Laughs] And so, this was in that time. I think after all of this, we all got beepers. [Laughs] So we met… Peter Laarman introduced us to Paul Chapman. And Anthony—Lewis had left Picture the Homeless, kind of  
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: around this time. And Anthony was spending a lot of time at Judson
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and getting to know, becoming part of that community, but also building relationship with Paul.
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And, I don’t—I guess he went up to Union and he was invited to go to Mexico.
 
Theoharis: Right.
 
Lewis: Caitlin Baker invited him to go.
 
Theoharis: To that Cry of the Excluded, or something like that. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:06:00] He was invited to that. And, do you have early impressions of Anthony when you met him, that you remember?
 
Theoharis: So, I think the first time I met Anthony, I don't remember what year it was, but it was in the ‘90s. I mean, it was in the late ‘90s, I think. Again, dates are sometimes a little tricky. And I think we are in, either Tompkins Square Park or Washington Square Park. And I was on one of these bus tours, or one of these... And it was right when there were all of these workfare workers that were hired to basically clean up and gentrify both of those parks, and I know I was in both of them, but I don't remember which one. And Anthony just like… I don’t remember if he just showed up, or if I didn't notice that he had been there for a bit, and then… And—but you know, started to talk about—had a camera and started to talk about organizing the homeless. And I just remember being super excited about this, because again, it just seemed like this was a kindred spirit. This was someone who obviously was doing this work on his own, right? And was doing it on his own volition. But it seemed so similar to work that some of us were doing on our own, of our own volition, like in other contexts. And it was just this kind of meeting of, “Oh wow, there's someone doing this, here.”
 
Theoharis: [01:07:38] And I remember—I remember coming to early events that Picture the Homeless was holding and seeing flyers that Anthony was like, passing out. And it's a little bit of a blur, right? In terms of like—I can’t put particular things to anything. But what I do remember is just seeing Anthony a lot, over the course of years—just because we would be in the same kind of places. And I don't think I was living in New York, right at the beginning of this. I think, I—and then at some point I was. But, I remember being very taken by—just like how Anthony would kind of just show up and then lots of people would turn to him, once he was there, right? And just, and be captivated by an analysis, by a spirit and by these stories. And, I remember that happening a bunch, and then at some point it becoming like a more actual relationship, right? But what I remember first was just these bursts of energy and analysis that would come.
 
Lewis: [01:09:04] It's so interesting you said that, because Anthony—for the oral history project, it was very important to him to set the record straight, about how Picture the Homeless was founded, and how he and Lewis met. And Lewis had asked him to not share that they met in detox.
 
Theoharis: Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And he—Lewis saw Anthony in detox, displaying these leadership qualities and deescalating a potential, really violent attack by some folks that Anthony describes as being Bloods, on someone else in the detox. And then, he de-escalates this fight by telling his life story.
 
Theoharis: Oh wow.
 
Lewis: And then Lewis saw him and said, “You know, that's powerful and why don't you come with me.” And Anthony was like, “For what? Like, I don't know you.” And it took a few months
 
Theoharis: Hmmm.
 
Lewis: for Anthony to actually go with Lewis before Picture the Homeless even had a name
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and they went to WBAI. But Lewis saw that same spirit in Anthony.
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:10:31] And even though Anthony wasn't aware of that as something that could be political leadership
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and he had to be convinced. And when they went to Judson, Anthony didn't want to go in and Lewis made him go in, he convinced him. Then Anthony began talking to Peter Laarman and Peter said something—you know, as Anthony tells the story, that you made, "I never saw homeless people this way. And I always looked across at Washington Square Park, but I've never talked to any of them, and you made me see."
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so, I think Anthony's spirit, you know—he's special, but it's that—it’s that seed, it’s that idea that there are people out there
 
Theoharis: Sure.
 
Lewis: who are leaders and we have to find them and—and build with each other.
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so, we moved into that office space after The Employment Project vacated it. This, I think, is a great segue into how—what was the meeting where you first met Jean Rice.
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm. That’s right.
 
Lewis: Because it’s all building up towards that…
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: [01:12:01] And beyond. So, what was the meeting at Union where you met Jean? What was the purpose of that meeting, and how did Picture the Homeless get invited?
 
Theoharis: [01:12:11] Yeah, so Paul Chapman, who is the director of The Employment Project, and I had started to work together. He had kind of commissioned another colleague of ours to do this study of seminaries, and found that despite the fact that the first place poor people are going to go—if they're in need, in any town or city is gonna be a church and despite the fact that like there's two-thousand plus passages in the Bible about what you're supposed to do about poverty… There weren't any seminaries that were training pastors and future pastors, of like, how to address—especially in a systemic way, poverty and homelessness. And especially from the perspective of organized poor people, right? And from like—movement perspective.
 
Theoharis: [01:13:00] And so—so with that, Paul and I started to talk about why isn't Union seminary, which has this rich history, doing social justice work and has lots of grads and alumni that are in the forefront of lots of social justice work, has like lots of grads and alums that are like, in the forefront of lots of social justice work… And that like, is kind of the home of liberation theology in the United States. Why isn't Union more involved? And why is it that all of my classmates at Union are coming to me to ask what their faith group or denomination is doing around poverty and homelessness? Just like ad hoc, right? And so we started to think about—well, what it would look like to take over the curriculum of Union and put organized poor people in the center of it, right? Like, both to change the learning process, and the content, right? And so—and at first Union is really not like, up for this. Union is going through a financial exigency, and a crisis. And also, just like—you know, Union, like other religious and educational institutions, has—somewhat similar to Peter Laarman's take on these issues. [Smiles] It’s like a… Maybe that unfortunate, but it's either poverty is inevitable and definitely poor people can't organize, or definitely poor people aren't leaders. Like—and again, so that—that was just there, right.
 
Theoharis: [01:14:52] So we start. Paul and I bring this idea up to the President, and he's just like, “Fine, but you need to raise five million dollars…” And I'm just like, “What? What are you talking…” “and endow a chair of poverty.” And I’m just like, “Are you crazy?!” You know. So, I knew—because the way I got to go to Union was that I got a scholarship, in William Stone Coffins name. And he was the Senior Pastor of Riverside Church, and he was kind of known as a father of liberation—of peace and justice stuff. And he had also stayed at my house when I was a kid, and I knew his work. And my mom had been really involved in the antinuclear and peace movements when he was the Senior Pastor at Riverside, when Riverside was coming out as a nuclear free church. So—and Paul Chapman knew him really well, as a colleague.
 
Theoharis: [01:15:59] And so, when the President of Union says “No.” [Smiles] We then called Bill Coffin up and said, “You know, these are the issues of our day—poverty and homelessness, and where the church is going to stand. This is it. This is what matters. So, how can Union not be in the forefront of this?” And so, he calls the President of Union up and then he also shows up at this dinner and then starts to be like, “You got to do this.” And so, I get called into the President's office and he says, basically, “We’ll talk to the faculty and the staff at Union, and I'll let you organize a day event. I'll give you a little money for it, and show us what you're talking about.” So, Paul and I meet with every faculty member, but then what we mostly do is, we start organizing. I think it was March 25th of 2003. And we got this—I mean, it was a couple hundred dollars, but it was mostly that the President was allowing us—and telling the faculty, the staff, the students, and the board of trustees about this.
 
Theoharis: [01:17:26] And so, we organized this event, and what is really important to me is that we need to have poor people from poor people's organizations present. Because how else are you going to impact these trustees and these faculty? It's not going to be that I get up there and I quote the Bible. It’s not going to be, that like… It’s going to be, you know—that's the whole theory of change and social movement organizing that the Homeless Union and the Welfare Rights Union that I come from. And so, we had leaders from a number of different poor people's groups—a homeless ministry out in California, a group without health care in New Jersey… But it was really important to us that we have New York City based folks. And again, we’re quite familiar with Picture the Homeless. And so, we said “We have to have folks from Picture the Homeless here.” And this is—it's kind of fly by night, the way we do things, you know. And so, it's last minute and like, we're trying to cobble together a little bit of resources—both to make it possible for people to be there, to have a little food, and trying to think of what the program should be.
 
Theoharis: [01:18:52] And Tyletha Samuels and Jean Rice and one other leader, but I can't…
 
Lewis: Jeff.
 
Theoharis: Okay.
 
Lewis: he was very tall?
 
Theoharis: Yes. Yes—come. And a couple of trustees from Union come. Art Trotman is one of them. Steve Hudspeth is another one of them. Most of the faculty come to some part. Like, it's an all-day thing. And so, that there were like—I think three different sessions that we were doing. One was about a practical ministry. One was about—I don’t, to be honest, I don't remember all of the things. But it was just like—and we did a chapel service in the middle. And it was all a little bit rough around its edges and raggedy, the way that this kind of movement work is. But it was really also amazing. And it was really right to have poor people that are a part of their own organizations, like there as equal partners and members and leaders, you know, along with seminary faculty and along with students and these trustees.
 
Theoharis: [01:20:04] And we called that daylong event, A Poverty Initiative. We didn't think that was a particularly interesting title. It was just that we were trying to take some initiative around these issues, and we were trying to have a daylong symposium on it. And then it becomes—what comes out of that, is that a bunch of faculty, a bunch of trustees and some of the different organizations that had been there, and some students, all were like very interested, were pretty taken by this. And it was just this simple little program from a day, but it kind of caught the imagination.
 
Theoharis: [01:20:47] And so, the next day, I get a call from Art Trotman, who I'd only met for the first time, you know—just like, totally distraught about the problem of homelessness, an issue that he had just literally… I think what he said to me, he had just never even known it was something. He just didn't even know that this problem existed. And it kind of explains a little bit of where he's coming from, because at this point, like again—I'd met this man who was a trustee of this school that I'm going to... I had gotten pretty comfortable hanging out with poor and homeless folks but, you know—I'm not comfortable hanging out with people with resources. [Smiles] It's not what I've done in my life, but I also get that like he, and this other couple of folks that are trustees, this could make a real difference, in terms of winning the administration of Union over to why we need to do something like this. And so, he was just like—saying, “How can this be? What is this problem? I have never seen this!” And I kind of am just like, “What? What are you talking about?” Right? I partially just can't even just get my head around…   
 
Theoharis: [01:22:10] And then I was just like, “Did you get to talk to the folks that were there from Picture the Homeless? It's an amazing organization. It's led by, and run by, people who are homeless themselves and can you… Great, let's be in touch—keep on reaching out to me, we want to do something. But also, you should be in touch, like—if your eyes were just opened, if you just had this huge revelation, then what you need to do is like dig yourself deep into this.” Right? So, I gave, Lynn—your contact information, explained that you were the director, that you had assigned folks to be there, and you had encouraged people to be there, and that Art should follow up with you. And then, he also followed up with me and some of the other faculty also did. And it seemed to have been a positive experience for the poor people's organizations as well. And so, we started to kind of—it's the spring and it's getting close to the end of the semester. So, we started to talk about, “Okay well, what could this be? Could we turn this into something more than a day long program where people explore this.”
 
Theoharis: [01:23:36] And the idea of establishing the Poverty Initiative becomes a reality. And so, that summer—and that spring before that summer, some of the faculty and trustees and I are able to basically convince the administration that we'll raise a little bit of money and that the first thing we want to do is bring Willie Baptist on as a scholar-in-residence, a poverty scholar-in-residence. And that we want Amy Gopp to be able to do work study and organize around this and that we're going to try a variety of different things out in the fall. And that's the fall of 2004. One of the things we decided we should do is that first January—Union has, or at least at that time, had almost the whole month of January off. And so, there were these intercession courses. And at the time, there weren't courses at Union that were kind of experiential learning courses. Like you're training people going to seminary, to be pastors and to be leaders of social justice movements, but you're not really exposing people to that, kind of hands-on. I mean, there's a field education program, but that's like you get to be assistant pastor, you know? 
 
Theoharis: [01:25:00] But like, in terms of these kinds of issues… And so, we did this immersion course in New York City. And it was during that, that we brought folks to Picture the Homeless and there was a meeting about the Potter's Field campaign. And Amy Gopp was there and then she realizes that this is—that we need to be in this. You know, taking the lead from Picture the Homeless and the Potter's Field campaign as it's developing, but that… And she’s—her focus was on liturgy and ritual and her adviser was Janet Walton, who is one of the professors who is the most excited and really the person that does the fundraising to bring Willie to Union, and is really the faculty advisor. [She] is the person who is encouraging me and others to really bring Art Trotman and others into this work more and just would have these little dinners at her house and again, all of this is totally new to me. I don't know how to work with rich people, I don’t know how to like... You know, like that’s just not what I… And so, it's kind of developing and as this story about the death of Lewis Haggins, the co-founder of Picture the Homeless and what happens to so many poor people, homeless people and folks that don't have family or connections and folks that do and how the kind of dignity that people are denied in life, happens in death. And so, to me that was one of the moments of the real coming together of Picture the Homeless and the beginning of the Poverty Initiative.
 
Theoharis: [01:27:04] I remember holding a Potters Field campaign meeting in the Bon Hoffer room and different religious leaders coming to that and hearing the clarity of leaders from Picture the Homeless. You know, Jean Rice and Charlie and others, just share about why we have to do this and what—and what injustices are being done by the Correction Department, by Hart Island and by the system of Potter's Field. And so, again—I had met Jean before that. I had met Tyletha. I was pretty familiar with Picture the Homeless. I would come to the Homeless Memorial Day services. I, you know—but I particularly think about that January immersion, in January of 2004 and the kind of work around the Potter's Field campaign, that we got to be a part of, out of that.
 
Lewis [01:28:29] The support from students at Union, from you, from Amy, was very important because the members of Picture the Homeless were very interfaith. So, we had—among the Christian members, there were Catholics, they were Baptists. There were—there were Muslim members. A couple of the leaders of that campaign were Muslim. There were folks who were saying that their friend who slept next to them in the shelter died, and they never could find out what happened to them, to go pay their last respects. But there was a very strong faith component to the members that really fueled their commitment. And when we talked to other religious leaders, and Elizabeth Maxwell was one of the first, because we had engaged with Holy Apostles around the RNC, was that—they had no idea what happened to the bodies. You know, they just never—people didn't think about it, and that they—people were buried in mass graves.
 
Theoharis: That's right.
 
Lewis: [01:29:51] And so, it was a journey for us as an organization because it resonated with people in such an emotional way, because that's where they were headed.
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: They would be buried there too, and the fact that we couldn't go have a service for Lewis, and his—you know, his family was involved with the work, from the beginning as well.
 
Theoharis: Right.
 
Lewis: Because they are the ones that had told us that he had—they had found his body in Potter's Field. He was buried as a John Doe, all of these things. And so, for us, you all at Union were like, a bunch of students
 
Theoharis: Right.
 
Lewis: who had this faith training that resonated with a bunch of our members, but also had some skills and resources. And so, Amy worked closely with the Potter's Field campaign to develop this liturgy and it was very powerful. I remember, there were some members of the campaign that weren't religious at all, but they were bringing this analysis like the Department of Homeless Services is selling us for.
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: What is it, twenty pieces of gold? [Smiles]
 
Theoharis: Of silver, yeah that's right. Exactly. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: And so, it was—it was a way to deepen an analysis of the system.
 
Theoharis: That's right.
 
Lewis: Also, to deepen that analysis and then to teach it. And it fit in, and helped build the process that we had of like, collective analysis and then bringing that out into the world in the form of lessons and solutions.
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: And we—we didn't have that kind of support from like an ally organization might come to a march or come to a rally, but not just dive in—in that way, and sit with folks. So, that was very powerful and thinking about how early on it was in the history of the group.
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Even going to Union, being invited into Union as a group when individuals—the members as individuals, you know, wouldn't be allowed in any of those buildings. I mean, maybe going to church at Riverside Church,
 
Theoharis: Right.
 
Lewis: but not… Like going into a fancy building and having meetings was a big deal.
 
Theoharis: Oh for sure.
 
Lewis: And the resources that you all lent to that just made a big impression and let folks know that what they were doing was important to a lot of people.
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmm. No, it was.
 
Lewis: So that was a big gift.
 
Theoharis: [01:32:46] Well it was—I mean, it was also I think, a moment where—folks in the Poverty Initiative—again, it’s really early on in the development of what becomes the Poverty Initiative, that then becomes the Kairos Center, which then becomes, this significant Poor People's campaign that's happening all across the country now. And I think, for one, the relationships that people like Amy and other students developed, you know—in developing that liturgy, in getting to go—once you all had won access and doing memorial services. I mean, the number of Union students that got to go—help lead those, but mostly participate in those... I know like, played a huge role in this kind of next generation of faith leaders. Like being, not just more aware about these issues, but having ritualistic and experience with an interfaith group of people in remembering and honoring.  
 
Theoharis: [01:34:10] And I remember sitting around in the Poverty Initiative office when we were in this like, little kind of kitchen area, office—and talking to some of the kind of—having Picture the Homeless members there, and having some of the faculty and scholars of Union and some of the students and just kind of hearing more and more of the story of Potter's Field. I remember a Bible professor saying, "I now understand communion. Like, you know, I've studied for years that the early Christian groups—churches, were these kind of burial associations. They were basically these groups of poor people who vowed to take care of each other when they died because they were living in this kind of empire that was both killing poor people, and degrading their deaths. And that when Jesus says we do this remembrance of me, that's actually about a tradition of poor people memorializing each other." And that—and I just remember—and he was just like, "I've studied this for decades. I'm the expert on this. I go to churches all across the country and world and teach people that what they're doing is a ritual of… That isn't just about Jesus, but is about poor people organizing.” He’s like, “But I never really understood it. I now understand.” And like how that just blows open, you know—what for Christians, who Jesus was and what it is that we do in remembrance of him, right? And so, I just remember this—the huge kind of ideological impact of this relationship, with Picture the Homeless as an organization and with these individual leaders, you know.
 
Lewis: [01:36:23] Do you remember who was there from Picture the Homeless?
 
Theoharis: So I do remember Jean Rice would be in these meetings. And he, you know—like Jean would do, would draw all of these connections, right? Like, so he would be in a meeting, and he'd be making a—drawing the connection to why he was boycotting Coke for killing revolutionaries in various—Colombia and other parts of Latin America, and then why he was… And how that same company was kicking the homeless out in Atlanta and how—that this was a part of a system that then—where his co-founder, Lewis Haggins had been buried in a mass grave and that the  Department of Corrections is who is doing that burial. And then, he could—he would just draw these connections, both back to the Bible and to these other ideas and to history and then also to our present day and the kind of systems of oppression that were impacting his life, but also him showing how they were impacting everybody's lives, right—and that you weren't free of this, and you weren't able to like—you know, don’t be feeling bad for a homeless person over here because you're just as implicated and you're just as impacted, and you’re just as… And just like—just constantly getting people to step back and think bigger. And just—and like also, I mean here was a homeless person who knew so much more about U.S. history, so much more about philosophy, so much more about just like any topic than these professors did, than these graduate students did. And that wasn't lost on people. That was, you know—that was just—people would be so hungry for that and for the connections that Jean would make.  
 
Lewis: [01:38:50] You telling this story makes me have a picture in my mind of Jean always having a big backpack full of books.
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: But in a really theatrical way, he would take the books out and put them on the table. [Smiles] And he would stage which books he would take to which places.
 
Theoharis: Oh yeah.
 
Lewis: And it was part of his whole performance of like, “I am the Expert and you're going to listen to me.”
 
Theoharis: Exactly.
 
Lewis: But somehow charm people into wanting to do that and not feeling—the stuff he would say would not be accusatory, but implicate.
 
Theoharis: Yes.
 
Lewis: But in a way that let—didn't let people off the hook, but said, “You still have a chance to
 
Theoharis: Exactly.
 
Lewis: —to do better.”
 
Theoharis: He was both like, welcoming people in and educating people and re-educating people in this amazing way. And just like, you just knew that he was reading so much more than you ever were, and that like—but also you've still got to jump in there and have a conversation and debate things out and like, he wanted that debate, and he wanted that dialog.
 
Lewis: It was very important to Jean to have this relationship with Union because of his own family history and relationship with their faith communities, as organizing spaces. And then, you may know this, but his mom and aunt, his mother's sister Laura Sutherland, were founders of a church in Brooklyn.
 
Theoharis: Oh right, I did. I remember that now.
 
Lewis: He must have told that story. And the dining room is named after his aunt Laura Sutherland, and so, the journey for Jean to be part of Picture the Homeless, and then to be a poverty scholar at Union was really, really important to him.
 
Lewis: [01:40:47] And he—outside of the poverty scholar meetings and classes, attended classes with Reverend James Cone.
 
Theoharis: That’s right!
 
Lewis: Could you talk about how the Poverty Scholars program was initiated? And did you recruit—how did Jean become part of that? And how did his participation impact the program?
 
Theoharis: Yeah, so we had—when we founded the Poverty Initiative, the first thing and the kind of cornerstone program, was to bring Willie Baptist, a formerly homeless organizer, into this relationship as a poverty scholar-in-residence. And he had faculty standing and he was teaching classes and he was consulted by students and by faculty. And then we realized that—that we needed so much more of that and that this real kind of genius that exists amongst poor and homeless people, you know—needed to be further tapped into and also developed, but mostly connected then, to other folks who were trying to figure out what it was looking like to challenge inequality in our society. And so, I can't remember the exact year. It's some years into the Poverty Initiative existing.  
 
Theoharis: [01:42:27] We had done these immersion programs and Jean had come on some of those immersions with us and then Art Trotman is a trustee and trustees are invited to audit classes. And he started to realize that he wanted to audit some classes, but he wanted to do that with Jean because he had developed this like, you know—really deep, caring, friendship and relationship. And so then, we get around to wanting to develop a deeper network and then also to try to encourage the leadership development of leaders of different organizations across the country, who are part of poor people's organizations.
 
Theoharis: [01:43:18] And so, we start the Poverty Scholars program. And what it is, is kind of like a cohort of leaders, again—folks that are impacted, like many folks that are currently homeless or formerly homeless, or currently a low wage worker, having no health care… I mean, again like,  and trying to blast away the idea of where scholarship comes from, and what it is and trying to talk about an engaged scholarship and folks as kind of graduates of this kind of “university of adversity”. And the impact that that can have both on higher education and theological education, but also just on the larger society. And so, we would convene folks a couple of times a year—at Union mostly, and kind of develop this cohort of leaders. And we would study the economy together and the Bible together and organizing practices and experiences and try to kind of weave together a network. 
 
Theoharis: [01:44:41] So, Willie Baptist was the coordinator of the Poverty Scholars Program. And he kind of identified an initial list of leaders, from different poor people's organizations from across the country and invited them to become Poverty Scholars. And so, there were folks from a bunch of poor people's groups in New York City and then they were also people from all over. And many of them had come out of the network that Willie and I had been a part of for many years—welfare rights, organizing, homeless union organizing, low-wage worker organizing. And so, Jean—but then also Arvernetta Henry and Owen Rogers, were all identified by Willie to be Poverty Scholars. I think of it was—sometimes it would happen in conversation with the organizations and sometimes it was more individuals. So, in Michigan, for instance, with the Michigan Welfare Rights Union, it was Maureen Taylor and Marion Kramer but then, also this young person, Crystal Bernard, who are all poverty scholars.
 
Theoharis: [01:46:07] And they would come, and folks would kind of study, and learn, and hang out together, and kind of network. Not in like in a high powered networking way but as in, "Okay, well, we're facing the poisoning of water over here. Where also are people seeing that? What else have we done?” And the whole, you know, “We're having low wage work and we've been kind of winning better wages, but they've been, you know, taking away our health care benefits and like so, what do we do about that?” “We're organizing amongst homeless people here." Definitely folks were very taken with presentations that all of those leaders made about the Potter's Field campaign, about some of the civil rights committee of Picture the Homeless and different kind of campaigns that organizations would be waging, and folks would like learn from those, and in many cases, apply them in their own context. And so, some of that was planned, but a lot of that was just kind of more spontaneous.
 
Theoharis: [01:47:11] And then, because Jean and Mrs. Henry and Rogers were here in New York and because also the Domestic Workers United was here, and the restaurant workers—like, there was an even tighter cohort of folks in the New York City area, who… Then we’d have Union students go to protests and actions. And then we’d have—you know, we'd bring people and invite them to come teach different classes at Union, and to take classes. We'd we invite folks to travel on these immersion courses with us. And so, we brought people to West Virginia, and we brought people to the Mississippi Delta, and Jean came on all of these, right? And would play a role as a faculty member! Right? I mean, he would be one of the teachers of those courses and would both teach about his life experience, his analysis and—and the work that Picture the Homeless was doing and how, you know—these future ministers all needed to know because they either needed to help start Picture the Homeless's in different places, or need to be aware that their role wasn't to be saviors.  
 
Lewis: [01:48:30] Jean was really taken by all of those trips, you know. And he would do written report backs to Picture the Homeless and kept a relationship going with Larry Gibson from West Virginia and when he was speaking—he was speaking on Long Island somewhere—Larry Gibson, and Jean and Reverend Billy
 
Theoharis: Oh wow…
 
Lewis: and Frank Morales went. I think that's when Reverend Billy met Larry Gibson.
 
Theoharis: I think that’s right.
 
Lewis: But then Reverend Billy started going to West Virginia and bringing dirt [laughs] from mountains that had been destroyed and making little mountains in Chase bank lobbies.
 
Theoharis: That’s right. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: And then, what Jean learned on that trip helped inform the Picture the Homeless Housing campaign, because Chase is a major warehouser of vacant property. And so, those connections really reverberated throughout all of our campaigns. And Jean and Arvernetta went on a seventeen mile march in Florida with the Coalition of Immokalee workers, whom they met
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: also through the Poverty Initiative.
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:49:52] I wondered if you could tell the story about Dear Mandela,
 
Theoharis: Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: because we all—Picture the Homeless and Union, developed deep relationships with them [Abahlali BaseMjondolo, also known as the Shack Dwellers]. When the film came out, they came to Picture the Homeless, and their youth leaders said that it was their dream to come to our office, and we were so shocked, and they dedicated the New York screening to Picture the Homeless and had Jean speak. And Jean brought this global analysis to Picture the Homeless but through his work at Picture the Homeless, he was very, very compelled to—in that way, be a teacher to other homeless folks on globalization and the importance of international solidarity. So, could you tell the Dear Mandela story?
 
Theoharis: [01:50:53] Yeah so, again—I'm not sure of the year, but Willie and I were always kind of looking for where are there movements, across the world, that we can learn from. And there was an article published by this scholar in South Africa named Richard Pithouse. The name of the article was called “The Struggle is a School.” And we had, out of the Homeless Union and the Welfare Rights Union, had developed all of these sayings about “Teaching as We Fight, Learning as We Lead”, and so—exactly this idea. I mean, that's where the whole idea of the Poverty Scholars program comes from. It's like, it’s not experts that are studying poverty—it's that, as you organize, your leadership develops and like... And so, we read this article and we were friends with a variety of filmmakers, including filmmakers that had won Academy Awards and stuff. I mean, the first time I had ever learned about Potter's Field in New York, before the Potter's Field campaign, was in the movie Takeover, that’s about the housing takeovers that the Homeless Union does. We dedicate it to—to those that have been buried at Potter's Field, and actually opens and closes with scenes of prisoners bearing these caskets, in these mass graves.  
 
Theoharis: [01:52:17] And so, so some of—so, we had some of these filmmaker friends. And Willie handed—one of them was from South Africa herself, Dara Kell. Willie handed her, and her partner at the time—Chris Nizza, this article, and was just like, "This is in your home country, and this sounds just like what we're doing here." And so, the next time that Dara was in South Africa visiting her family, she went and introduced herself to Abahlali baseMjondolo which is the South African Shack Dwellers Movement. Which is the largest movement—social movement, in post-apartheid South Africa. And it’s—Abahlali is “people of the shacks” and they're still going strong there. They're growing every day.
 
Theoharis: [01:53:18] So, we develop this relationship with the movement through actually—these filmmakers. We then would bring folk to this country, including when we did this leadership school in West Virginia, where we brought a lot of folks to—to Larry Gibson's mountain. We also had these young people from the movement in South Africa, you know—at this, at this leadership school. And we got a chance for these leaders from different movements in this country to like learn about this powerful movement of people of the shacks, in South Africa. And so then, they made this movie and it kind of documents one period of time in that movement's history, but especially both an attack at some of their encampments by the powers that be and by the police, as well as in the context of the fact that this group of shack dwellers are suing, in the constitutional court for the housing rights of all South Africans. Because after apartheid falls, South Africa gets the most progressive constitution, basically in the world—that has housing as a human right in it. But then the number of informal settlements and shacks like just, you know—double and triple in the same period of time. And so, it was really amazing to have these leaders—and we’d have folks come periodically. And then, when the film premieres—and, you know, it gets a lot of play in the whole continent of Africa, but also in the United States. 
 
Theoharis: [01:55:29] Like, where it's an award winning film about a group of homeless people in South Africa who are taking on the system, in post-apartheid South Africa. And there’s such similarities to these young people fighting for their lives, and their rights and their housing rights, and showing up in different places with a constitution. Like, there's lots of moments where it's really parallel to the kind of work that Jean Rice and others are doing in the United States—where you know, you show up and you tell people, "These are your rights." Or, "This is—like this is a violation of my rights and of your rights." And the same things happening, basically because of similar conditions and there are these amazing leaders!
 
Theoharis: [01:56:18] And then they got to meet each other, right? And so, shortly after that—the leadership school that we had in West Virginia, there was this really bad attack in one of the settlements. And so, Picture the Homeless and the Poverty Initiative and a couple of groups organized this protest outside of the South African consulate. And what we're told is it has this really big influence. That—so we have this group of homeless folk and other poor people and students and domestic workers who had all kind of come to know each other, you know—at the school and a series of different things, you know, showing up and saying like, "We have solidarity with people in our situation and in similar situations in South Africa." And then, because it's the United States, South African didn't want to be embarrassed basically by people in the United States—like calling them out for what they're doing to their people, and so it means this like, really big victory actually, where they stop the repression. And you know—again, it's Jean and Mrs. Henry and different folks like that, who are leading the chants are leading the charge and who, you know—are willing to kind of talk back to the consulate cops. But again—like secure more safety for shack dwellers in South Africa, at the same time they’re standing up for people's rights here.
 
Theoharis: [01:57:49] And so it was beautiful when then, in the U.S., we have this kind of film screening that happens, and the New York premiere [smiles] is dedicated to Picture the Homeless and it’s—and leaders from Picture the Homeless, including Jean, are like right there in the story. And in fact, in the movie—in the film, there are people wearing Picture the Homeless shirts! Right? And so, you can see the South Africans, who have heard about people organizing in the U.S., and they’re wearing those shirts because they're showing their solidarity, too. I mean, they're also excited to have these nice blue shirts. [Laughs] But it was like, to me that showed—and you can also see in the film there’s this bumper sticker that says, “I Heart Mountains.” Which is the bumper sticker that Larry Gibson handed out and that Jean would carry different places—to Baltimore, to wherever, in this campaign talking about Chase both blowing up mountains and keeping homeless people out of housing, you know—and just those connections. So, it was—it is a really important relationship and one that still exists and has been strengthened by—by folks like Jean.
 
Lewis: [01:59:13] Yeah, I love that. There are many stories. We—I saw Anthony in, a couple weeks ago, I went to Baltimore, and he told me that he had gone to the Poor People's Campaign
 
Theoharis: Yeah!
 
Lewis: convening over the summer
 
Theoharis: Yeah!
 
Lewis: and how important it was for him
 
Theoharis: That’s awesome.
 
Lewis: to not only be there, but to secure these connections. And Anthony also is a big thinker,
 
Theoharis: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and, you know—folks thinking outside of their own situation, and looking at things systemically.
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: It was really important for him to be there. And I know he's looking forward to more of that. And he'll be up here for the 20th Anniversary.
 
Theoharis: Oh! That’s in November, it’s in the twenties…
 
Lewis: The 25th, yeah, he's coming up.
 
Theoharis: I think I'll be in town. I might have to be out of town. I'm hoping to be in town so I can come to it.
 
Lewis: He'll be here for a few days.
 
Theoharis: Okay.
 
Lewis: And he's gonna stay here if you want to see him and you can't come that night.
 
Theoharis: Okay. That’s awesome.
 
Lewis: [02:00:23] I think that the relationship that Jean built with the Poverty Initiative and Arvernetta and Rogers, I think added a dimension to the work at Picture the Homeless that wouldn't otherwise have existed. And now that the Poor People's campaign is taking on a big national leadership role
 
Theoharis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: so thank you for all that hard work. [Smiles] What ways do you see homeless leaders… Because there’s homeless groups all over the country now
 
Theoharis: That’s right.
 
Lewis: responding to the need to organize. What role do you see folks like Jean and groups like Picture the Homeless playing in this national—this political moment that we're in right now?
 
Theoharis: Yeah, I mean, so it’s obviously—it’s a crazy moment. And, you know—when you have a leader of the country who is just willing to be outright racist, cut people off of any little bit of programs. You know, just… I mean, it's a crazy moment. And you know, obviously, he's just a symptom of a larger problem and a larger system but he's one that is wreaking a lot of havoc in people's lives, when people's lives were already in jeopardy. And so, to me—so we have this Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival. We're organized in forty-three states across the country, you know—and most of it is the efforts of poor people, homeless people to organize and come out with, you know—the immorality of a system and a society that—that, you know, criminalizes people, that makes it more possible to—you know, go to jail than to find housing. You know, it’s just like… The craziness of a system.
 
Theoharis: [02:02:47] You know, what we're seeing is an upsurge in organizing amongst the homeless—in part because of an upsurge in the rise of homelessness, right? But because of that, it's so important to have these models and these experiences and these lessons, and then actual leaders coming—who have a history of doing that work. I mean so—you know, I was just in Kentucky in just like, some of these little hollers, and folks are talking about the problem of homelessness and talking about what's it going to look like for us to involve homeless leaders in this work. You know, I come out of the Homeless Union. It still feels different than it did at the height of that. I mean, to have a little community in Kentucky and all of these rural areas in Coos Bay, Oregon, and then also people in a lot of the big cities, all who are basically saying, “You know, we need examples and leaders of homeless organizing.”
 
Theoharis: [02:04:02] And so to me, it—it just shows the importance of—both the lessons but then also the real today leadership of Jean Rice and of Arvernetta Henry and of many leaders that have been produced out of this amazing organization of Picture the Homeless. People are just so hungry of like, “How do you do it? How do you sustain it?” You know, folks will be like, "Well, you know, back in the day, you all had bigger organizations. But us millennials, we don't know how to…” And just, to have folks that have been through this work and just be like, "Nope! This is how we did it. This is how you can do it.” Like, you know, “Just laying down and dying isn't going to help anybody. Just letting you be silently, you know—disappeared isn't going to serve anybody.”
 
Theoharis: [02:05:05] You know, last week, another leader who had just sued—the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit because of the demolition of one of these homeless encampments, was killed. A tree fell on her. You know, just in different parts of Washington state where, you know, there's a thousand homeless people that are all being criminalized at the same time, at the same encampment. You know, folks are so hungry for what works. “How do you do this? What does it look like? You know, what are some of the demands you can come up with? What are some of the victories you can have? How do you sustain? Like, how do you keep people involved that have constant crises in their own lives and their families lives, you know—and who have built new communities and new families amongst other homeless people. Like how does that work? How do you do it?” And that's just what we're getting all across the place, you know, from Mobile, Alabama, to Covington, Kentucky, to Boston, Massachusetts, You know—and again, just in this massive way. And so, to me, it's so clear that the leadership of Picture the Homeless and the leadership of individual leaders of Picture the Homeless, like Jean Rice, is just so—is so needed. And that there's people that would like to just sit at his feet and learn—both that bigger analysis and the practical experience of both how you survive and how you organize and how you develop all kinds of relationships and how you get things done.
 
Lewis: Well, I promised you two hours. I know you're really busy, so I could ask a million questions more, but I think we'll end on that wonderful note, alright? Thank you. [Smiles]
 
Theoharis: Awesome, that’s perfect. Thank you.