Raquel Namuche Pacheco

Lewis: [00:00:01] So, my name is Lynn Lewis, and it is March 28th. I always have to look and make sure [laughs] I have the right date—2023. And I'm here with Raquel Namuche... And do you use both last names, for your introduction?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I do. Raquel Namuche-Pacheco.
 
Lewis: Okay, thank you. And this is an interview for the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project, and I'm very glad to see you, Raquel.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Thank you, Lynn.
 
Lewis: [00:00:39] And, as we've done with all the other interviews, we start out getting to know every person we're interviewing. No one's life started when they started working at Picture the Homeless. [Smiles] And it's very important I think, to get to know each of the—each of the folks, and what they brought to the organization. And so, if you don't mind sharing where you're from and some things about your early life that you want to share.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Ah, yes, so I was born in Lima, in Peru. My entire family is Peruvian, I’m very happy to have been born in Lima, where my entire family is from. I now use my two last names to really pay homage to my mom's side of the family because they are Afro-Peruvian, and it is the side that I feel closest to in my family, because it's the side that I actually know. My dad's side of the family—his father left him, or left the family, when he was fourteen and it was really difficult for him because he was the oldest sibling, and he had to start working and that was really hard because he had polio when he was born. And so his left leg is completely atrophied, and he walks with a severe limp. And I don't know my grandfather at all—his father. I don't—I've never even seen a picture of him. And that's because my dad never talks about him, unfortunately.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: But with my mom's side of the family it was very different. And the reason that I feel closest to that side, is because my mom has a lot of stories to tell about her father and how he met my grandmother and sort of the racism that they faced in Peru. And that's why I use Namuche-Pacheco, Pacheco being my grandfather's family name.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:02:56] And so I was born in Peru in the capital, Lima... But in a very poor part of the city that was actually taken over by people when the government gave a bunch of land in the ‘60s, to some people in this one municipality called San Juan de Miraflores. And my grandmother decided to take some land. And that's where I grew up—in San Juan de Miraflores, in Lima.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:03:39] I left Peru when I was seven. My father came first. He actually crossed the border, and at that time my parents had actually separated. My father had cheated on my mom, and my mom just didn't want to be with him. And when he came to New York after crossing the border, my father would constantly call my mom to convince her to bring me to New York City. And so he actually convinced her. And he raised—in a year of working in factories in New Jersey, he was able to raise like ten-thousand dollars so that he could hire a smuggler for my mom and I. And so we also crossed the border. And that happened when I was seven. And I landed in Queens, where I'm from.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:04:35] And I'm actually happy to say that I've never lived in any other borough [smiles] other than Queens. So I'm very much a Queens girl, and I'm very proud of being from Queens and growing up here in this borough. And it's the only borough I've lived in since I was seven, since landing in New York City. And I think, you know—my sort of... My family background and having crossed the border is something that really has partly made me the person that I am because of the things that I experienced, because of that. And, you know, growing up in a family that didn't speak English and having a father who has a disability, a very visible disability, and as a child, I think experiencing those things like really politicized me, at an early age.
 
Lewis: [00:05:37] Thank you for sharing all of that. And when you and your mom rejoined your dad here in Queens, what neighborhood were you in and what was it—what was the neighborhood like then?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: So, my father was renting a room in Corona. And when we came, we were able to rent an apartment in East Elmhurst [slash] Jackson Heights, a very residential area. And that's where I was raised until I was around sixteen years old—sixteen, seventeen years old. And the neighborhood at that time was of course, very Latino, and very working class. And I would walk to school—to like my middle school. And after work, I would… I mean after school, I would go to the library, the Langston Hughes Library on Astoria Boulevard, because when I left school, my parents weren't at home usually. And so I would go to the library and read. And all the librarians would know me, and they would help—basically take care of me.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:06:55] And I really liked growing up in that part of Queens. It felt very homey, and I felt protected. But at one point when I was maybe around eighteen, nineteen—our rent went up, and that's when my father and I had to try and find another place. And that's when I moved to Ridgewood, Queens. But, I always have fond memories of Corona and Jackson Heights. It's not the same anymore.
 
Lewis: [00:07:38] Now, talk about the differences.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah, around the time that I had to leave with my father is around the time when the Starbucks [smiles] opened on one of the main strips. And, you know—the landlord at that time, we were paying, I think it was like nine-hundred dollars, and they wanted to raise the rent to like fifteen-hundred. And this was like, you know—over ten years ago now. And so that's when I think you really started to see even neighborhoods like Jackson Heights, change a bit in terms of like rent prices and the kinds of businesses that would start to open up in the neighborhood. And it's now something that I'm seeing all over Queens, sadly—and of course all over the city.
 
Lewis: [00:08:27] Yeah. And you and your dad had to find a place... Was your mom still with you?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: No, because they separated—or they actually officially divorced when I was sixteen. And when I was sixteen, my mom decided to leave. And so I had the choice at sixteen years old to either stay with my mom. Or like, go with my mom or stay with my father. And at that time, I decided to stay with my father because I somehow... You know, I thought I had to like, protect him, and help him out. And so my mom went to live in South Ozone Park. And she found a one... Well, she found—she went to live in a basement apartment in South Ozone Park, very, very far away from Jackson Heights. So, I would rarely see her at that point just because—you know, to get to South Ozone Park from Jackson Heights, it's like an hour or more, to get there. So, that was extremely sad. And it was a really sad decision and a hard decision to make. But somehow I felt like I needed to stay and like, help my father. So, I decided to stay in Jackson Heights with him.
 
Lewis: [00:09:46] Well, thank you for sharing that and—you know, your experience moving here, like so many other people that move to the U.S. as a child and, you know, learn to speak English, and then end up helping their parents navigate, you know... Is there anything about that experience that you want to share?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah! I think, going to apply for like SNAP, like public benefits with my parents or going to the public hospital at Elmhurst. You know, in situations like that I remember very clearly... Experiencing either weird looks because I would help do the interpretation. Or even experiencing various types of racism being out in the world, especially in those agencies. I don't think at that time I fully knew what it was, until I was a bit older. Like around—like fourteen, fifteen, is when I actually understood the treatment that we, you know, would sometimes get because we were either... Because my parents didn't speak English or because I was brown, or maybe not a citizen.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:11:15] Because originally, for several years, my parents—I mean, my whole family was undocumented. And that only happened that my father's boss at that time miraculously gave him his papers, his green card. And that's the only reason I have my citizenship now, that I was able to get my green card and then apply for citizenship. It was only because my father's boss, who he had worked for in this factory—woodworking factory for many, many years, gave him the opportunity and petitioned him to get his working papers. And so, yeah—for a while we were undocumented as well.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:11:59] And I think just the experience of having to be an advocate for my parents as a young girl was something that felt—made me feel very different from other people. And, you know—I think, you know, like I said earlier, it definitely made me [smiles] the person I am. Because when I started to understand this treatment that we would get sometimes, it made me feel really, really angry. And I think that's the way—that's the reason I am [smiles] the way I am now. I'm a very angry person. But I think since I was really young, I've been able to channel that anger into organizing, which I think is a good way to channel anger. [Laughs] I mean, it's better than like, you know, committing official crimes.
 
Lewis: Or hurting ourselves.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Or... Yeah, or doing yeah... Or—and using that energy in a way that might not be productive, or in service of the community.
 
Lewis: I interviewed someone who's an organizer, and she said that organizing was almost like therapy.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: For her. And we hear—and good, that more people are talking about self-care and taking care of themselves. But I do think that a lot of people that get into organizing are mad or angry and that it's a way to channel.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:13:36] And are there… Were there particular issues when you were younger that you were really aware of and angry about and wanted to channel energy towards?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And what were they?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah I think... In like high school, I was really into women's rights issues, immigrant rights issues—but particularly issues around intimate partner violence, because my father was abusive to my mom. I mean, it's one of the main reasons she decided to officially divorce him, which was also I guess, now that I think of it, was really when I was sixteen and decided to stay with my father also it’s one of the reasons that decision was so hard. You know, I felt like I needed to stay and support him, but I also really did not have a good relationship with him. Like, I called the cops on him, twice—because he was beating up my mom! And for a long time, we did not talk. We just didn't have a good relationship. And so those issues were always really important to me. And when I was in high school, I actually volunteered at a crisis intervention program, run out of Mt. Sinai, where you would volunteer once or twice a month to provide crisis intervention counseling to patients that would go into the emergency room that would have some kind of like DV issues, or experience with intimate partner violence. And one of my first jobs was also as a social service coordinator [slash] organizer, working with domestic workers. And prior to that, I had volunteered—I had interned, and then actually got a job at the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health. And that was my last year at LaGuardia Community College, that I got that job. But, those are some of like the earliest issues that I thought... I really cared about.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:16:17] But previous to that actually, when I was in high school, I would... And this is actually why I kind of think this film, that our friends have worked on, like Dave Powell—kind of is a bit of a full circle for me. Because when I was in… Like when I was fifteen... I wasn't very parented. I never did anything [smiles], quote unquote, “bad”, because I think my mom and my dad knew I was responsible. And so I would take my bike and cross the Triborough—the Queensboro—the Triborough Bridge, to Midtown and would go up First Avenue to the Lower East Side. And so, when I was really young, when I was a teenager, I used to like, go to places like ABC No Rio. And when CHARAS was still like a vibrant community space, I would go and... Just go inside, and I would see all these different groups, like organizing groups, have meetings and all these like art groups like do their paper mâché, [smiles] and I thought it was so cool, and they would organize marches in the streets.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:17:33] And one of the groups that I became—one of the very first groups I ever became a member of was this group called the Street Harassment Project. And that was like a good way for me to channel my anger, maybe the anger I had about like, my parents relationship and against other men... Because, you know—street harassment I always thought was like something that made me very angry. It was like men imposing themselves on you while you're just like minding your own business.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:18:03] And I remember meeting—I don't know if you know Fran Luck, but Fran Luck  
 
Lewis: I do...
 
Namuche-Pacheco: yeah... [Laughs] So, she started the Street Harassment Project, and I met her once at ABC No Rio. And she's like, "Hey, you want to come join us?" [Laughs] And I was like sixteen, fifteen. And I went to the second floor to the zine library at ABC No Rio. And I met like four other women who were starting this group called the Street Harassment Project, and I became a member, and we would do like street theater. And at that time, we were trying to get the MTA to do trainings on street harassment and bystander intervention of street harassment within the train system, within the subway system, and we would do, you know, things like that.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:18:56] There was like a song that Fran wrote that we would perform at Tompkins Square Park. [Smiles] It was really fun and that was like my first time I was ever—I ever became a member of a group and I thought it was really exciting. And so I think being a part of a group like that and just witnessing what was happening on the Lower East Side was the second part of being politicized after, you know, having—coming here the way I did and dealing with, you know, some of the issues that my family dealt with. My second politicization was like that time I got to spend on the Lower East Side, and I learned what organizing was actually about, for the very first time.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:19:45] And I guess years later, I learned that you can actually get paid to do organizing work. [Smiles] And because I thought it was just something you do, because you really believed in it, and you wanted to have fun. But then, I learned that there's people that actually were getting paid to organize in their neighborhoods and in their communities around various issues. And I think that led me to explore that a bit more. But it was really a fun time. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [00:20:14] What are some of the things… Do you have like, a fun story that you want to share?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: A fun story? I have such a bad memory. I... Maybe not a fun story, but maybe something that sticks out. I also used to go to a lot of punk shows and hardcore shows at ABC No Rio, and around the Lower East Side, and there was a community garden that was going to be demolished—Esperanza?
 
Lewis: Yeah!
 
Namuche-Pacheco: And I remember, like a late night—it was like eleven, this band called Friends Forever put on a show, like right out on the corner. Like they played from like, their van. The drummer was like inside the van, and like the guitarist was outside and they blew up like a big, inflated bubble. And it was just like bunch of kids [smiles] on like, on some corner—random corner, on the Lower East Side and I thought that was like, the funest shit ever. [Laughs] And that's just kind of like a memory that sticks out.
 
Lewis: [00:21:32] You know, they're so—it's so interesting, the intersections with Picture the Homeless, because Picture the Homeless had its first like community meeting at CHARAS. I was involved with CHARAS from like '81, '82. And then, the Esperanza Garden fight, Lewis and Anthony had just started organizing, and so Lewis took Anthony to the Esperanza Garden and was like, "Look at this shit. They have a laptop up in there, and everything! There was like a big frog."
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I think, yeah. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [00:22:08] [Smiles] So, Anthony talks about that in one of his interviews, and meeting up with the gardeners and how they asked them to speak, and Anthony talked about like thinking through the connection between gardens…
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And that Giuliani at the time was demolishing gardens for luxury housing. So, that's super interesting. And there's the ABC No Rio connection also. That's really nice.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah, that's why... Yeah, I thought it was really beautiful, making these connections now, that I didn't realize existed before.
 
Lewis: And then—but at the same time, they're not surprising, right?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:22:58] Mm-mmm. No. No… I feel like, very different from other housing activists because—well, I guess—I grew up in New York City, but I was also really connected when I was younger to these organizing fights that were led by these, like radical, radical activists that really believed in direct action. And even though I've worked at non-profits throughout my entire adult life, I really understand, you know—the different strategies that you should be using to organize. But I think—really believe strongly that direct action is really the only way to win. But get really frustrated because in all of the—not, I wouldn't say all—but in many of my nonprofit jobs, I think it's really difficult to make a case for that. And I guess I feel different just because I can understand. I understand, you know, both sides of I guess, the spectrum of organizing. Or, I can understand the full spectrum. You know, some people don't believe in direct action, and they just want to… I don't know, do what they do. [Smiles] And other people want to take real risks. But I think not a lot of people sort of understand the nuances completely. And I feel like I have a good grasp of both sides, and both ends. And I think that's really important. But I mainly wish more folks were down to really do some of the stuff that I saw when I was younger in the Lower East Side.
 
Lewis: [00:25:03] Yeah, I feel the same way. And I actually called Valerio today because I wanted to, you know, tell him I saw the film and how much he meant to me. When I—I was in a homeless shelter when my daughter was a baby, I was a Cooper Square tenant. But Valerio and his wife invited me to come stay with them, so I didn't have to stay in the shelter. And that type of organizing where people really are close, and also... This isn't a critique of the film, but I wish they had shown more of the actions. Because I think we—we think that these things magically happen, or because we have a whole bunch of meetings with HPD that they're going to behave differently. And I don't think anything really changes without actions. And they did a lot of actions. And that was something I always appreciated about you, was that you—you knew that you had to get out there and door knock, and build relationships with people and that we needed to have actions.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:26:21] I mean, it's one of the things I appreciate—I always appreciated about Picture the Homeless, was that I saw folks who were willing to risk it all. And I thought that was really inspiring. I… It's really funny, because the first time I met members and leaders of Picture the Homeless was when I was working at a legal service organization. I was working at MFJ, back they it was called MFY, Mobilization for Youth. But it's a legal service organization, and I was working with tenants that lived in illegal boarding houses.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:27:08] And in 2010, we organized—or I organized a rally outside of an illegal boarding house, a Three Quarter house. And it was like really cold [smiles] and, you know, I had the Three Quarter house tenants that were working with me there, of course. And then who else showed up? It was Picture the Homeless members that showed up. And they came all the way from the Bronx to Brownsville [smiles] in like the coldest day of December, and I thought that was really beautiful. I think it was Frank? Not Frank Morales, but Frank... I forget their last name, I think,  bald...
 
Lewis: Clark? Frank Clark?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yes!
 
Lewis: Older—older person?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And it was another member. I forget who... It was two other members. I forget who they were, but they came with the banner and stood out there. And that was really impressive to me, that they would come all the way from so far away to join the folks protesting their slumlord, the Three Quarter House operator in Brownsville. I thought that was pretty cool. And it's the first time I ever like met anyone from the organization.
 
Lewis: [00:28:37] Is that the first time you became aware of Picture the Homeless, or had you already known about Picture the Homeless? And what's that story?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I had already known of Picture the Homeless, and I forget exactly how. I did invite them, and I believe... Who was working there that time? I believe I had reached out to one of the organizers, and it was when you all were in the Bronx, in the house that you all rented. But I believe, before that, I had gone to a meeting up there just to kind of get to know folks. Because there were Three Quarter Houses in the Bronx too. I think it was like another young organizer that I met, initially. I forget who it was. I have a really bad memory. But I had only gone there once and it took just one invite for folks to come out to like, the protest at the Three Quarter House project had organized. And it was also another group there, or one member of another group called RIPPED. I don't know if you know Lisa Ortega?
 
Lewis: I know her pretty well. Yep.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Her group also came. She had sent a member of her group as well. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:30:11] And for folks that don't know, do you want to talk a little bit about the Three Quarter Houses and what that—what that was about?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah. I—in 2000... Like, I guess in 2009 is when I was working as a social service coordinator—an organizer, working with domestic workers in Jackson Heights. But during that time, I learned of an organizing program through an organization called the Center for Third World Organizing, which is a, basically an institution at this point. I think they—you know, they've existed since the ‘60s and their sole purpose is to train people of color in organizing skills. And I did that program to learn more about organizing and to kind of help me figure out if I wanted to be an organizer for real, for real. And I remember coming back after finishing the apprenticeship program and wanting to be an organizer, and so I applied to many, many places.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:31:31] And the only job I could land as a tenant organizer was at MFY. They now are called Mobilization for Justice. But back then they were called Mobilization for Youth, MFY. And in 2010, Tanya Kessler, one of the attorneys, had gotten a Skadden Fellowship after—or during law school, and she created what's called the three—or what was called the Three Quarter House Project. And I was hired as the part-time organizer and [slash] paralegal. And it was the first time I ever did any work around housing. And it was, I learned, one of the worst forms of profit making, I think, in New York City. And so essentially, illegal boarding homes was a system, an underground system, of housing that really proliferated that year, like in 2010, and really got much worse. And they were run by awful people, just individual operators that would like lease entire homes or buildings and would funnel in, individuals coming out of parole, coming out of shelters, coming out of rehab programs, and would entice them to come in to their [quote-unquote] "program" and would tell them, "You've got a bed. You can get help with getting back your life, and would force them to go into substance abuse programs. And the substance abuse programs would give kickbacks to the Three Quarter House operators.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:33:25] And after the program recipient, or program participants finished the substance abuse program, they would get kicked out illegally from the Three Quarter Houses, even though our stance was that they were tenants, just like anyone else, renting an apartment, renting a room, etc. But many, many people would just get kicked out, many in the middle of the night—and illegally, right? And the Three Quarter Housing project really looked at this issue and organized tenants. So, I organized alongside all these folks in these Three Quarter Houses who were being abused very severely, who are being illegally evicted, being milked for a bunch of money, when they had none—nothing at all.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:34:15] So, it was a very awful profit making scheme by very, very ugly individuals. And because of the organizing work that those folks did, all the Three Quarter House tenants, they were basically able to take down the whole industry. I barely hear of Three Quarter Houses now. I'm sure they've taken on maybe a different form. Boarding homes, of course, still exist, but the Three Quarter Houses that were the most awful and the most abusive—the tenants, through their organizing, were able to take those down, along with like the substance abuse programs that provided kickbacks to the operators, like Narco Freedom. And so, that was like my first entry into housing organizing. And I'm always very thankful for that, because I saw some of the most awful housing conditions I had seen, and it made me want to continue to organize on housing issues with tenants.
 
Lewis: [00:35:26] What were some of the conditions that really stand out for you that you saw?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I would go into—you know, the tenants would invite me into their Three Quarter Houses, and I would go into apartments where there would be bunk beds in kitchens, and there would be bunk beds in bedrooms, like on every wall, no living space in many instances, bedbugs like crazy, nonfunctioning bathrooms, no showers. I... One awful—Heaven Green, one awful operator of Three Quarter Houses in East New York would plant drugs on people's pillows and would call the police just to get them arrested and out of their rooms and the houses. They would plant feces just to make men leave. I remember one Three Quarter House meeting we had at Neighbors Together, because that's where we would meet. Neighbors Together is an organization in Brownsville, and we would have biweekly meetings there. And I remember one member bringing an empty pill bottle filled with bedbugs—to demonstrate, you know, this is how I have to live. And that was really awful.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:37:04] And I think because of some of those things that I saw, it made me really understand that like, housing is so fundamental to living a life that's fulfilling, you know—in all kinds of ways. And if you don't have stable housing, you can't really get your life together, if that's what you want to do, right? If you want to, you know—go to school, go to work, be at peace with yourself—you need stable housing. And I think—I'm very, very thankful that that was like my first entry to housing organizing because it made me understand that—that housing is really important. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:37:50] You know, I appreciate you sharing all that because we would learn, at Picture the Homeless, about things like Three Quarter Housing, from members, right? Because there's—there's a whole continuum... There's like a whole ecosystem of Three Quarter Houses, or shelters, or drop ins... All these kinds of spaces that are created and funded, by the system. Where really poor people are kind of like channeled and get stuck. And people would tell us about these things, you know? And if you haven't been through it, you don't know. And so, I remember when a report came out about Three Quarter Houses, and then all of—like several Picture the Homeless members were like, "Oh, yeah!" And they were just naming all these things that were in the report and that—this is the experience of so many people. And yet at the same time it's invisible to people who haven't been through it and so I appreciate you sharing all that. And those were funded? Who was paying for people to be living in these places?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: HRA. The city was! Right? That's so funny that it was the city paying for people's beds in these Three Quarter Houses through like the HRA shelter allowance. Some people were paying through their Social Security. And some people were paying out of pocket as well, if they had the funds. But, a lot of it was funded by the government.
 
Lewis: [00:39:34] [Pause] And so, Picture the Homeless members came with the banner. And then do you—do you have memories of after that—relationships or connections with Picture the Homeless?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I... I do. Which is, you know, I think one of the reasons I wanted to work at Picture the Homeless, because I had always admired the work that the organization has done. And, you know, after MFJ—after working in the Three Quarter House project, I was feeling a bit frustrated because I was starting to do more like, paralegal work. Of course, it was important to like, get these folks connected to like public benefits and doing advocacy for the folks that were organizing alongside me. But then, I also started to do other work. And I grew a bit frustrated because I want it to just be doing organizing full-time.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:40:59] And I remember that, after that [smiles] I went to work at Make the Road for a year because I wanted to be an organizer full-time doing housing. And that was great. I had a, you know—great tenants that were working alongside me. And I then grew frustrated again [smiles] because I started to realize that I needed to—I wanted to be a part of something that was one-hundred percent tenant led. And so then I went back to work at another non-organizing job. I think it was like at Housing Court Answers. And then I was like, "I want to do organizing again!” [Laughs] Because at that time I was only doing organizing, like in Queens. You know, I've always been organizing in my free time. And I was organizing in Queens with a group that I was helping to form called Queens Is Not for Sale. But I wanted to go back to doing organizing full-time as my paid work.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:42:22] And that's why I decided to work at Picture the Homeless, when the opportunity presented itself for me to be able to apply. And I was actually pretty... I was very nervous, but I also was surprised that I got the job. Because at that time I didn't have a lot of experience doing solely tenant organizing. But I think, you know—I think what made a difference is the fact that I had already some connections to PTH. That I knew of the organization. But I was really happy, I remember... And really nervous. And actually really surprised that I got the job.
 
Lewis: [00:43:09] When you were applying, what were you thinking? Like what... What were you thinking that the organization was like—that you would be doing, and what it was like.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I was really nervous because I did not know anything about Community Land Trusts. I had no idea what that was. And I had read about them, but like—you know, to like prepare in the work that PTH had already been doing. But I had no idea really what I was getting into because I had no idea what it was like to organize a Community Land Trust, and in East Harlem, which is a neighborhood that I had never organized in. And, I guess I was just feeling nervous for all those reasons. And yeah, you know—again, I was like really shocked that I got the job. But at that time I had already known of some of the folks that were working there, like Sam—not closely, but I knew of them, through just like the housing world.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:44:30] I was, you know—I was feeling really lucky that I got the job, but I was kind of like I wasn't—no. I didn't know—like, I didn't know what I, what I was getting myself into until I started working at PTH, and like going to all those buildings. And, you know, just like walking around the neighborhood, learning of sort of like the history of organizing even, in East Harlem. Learning about all of the zoning fights, or the rezoning fights. Also learning more about like the local councilmember at that time, just learning—the political landscape was really interesting, and I think, you know, learning about all that was pretty exciting. And I feel like I, you know, I went right into... What's the phrase? "Hit the ground running." I feel like I did an okay job doing that.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:45:26] Because it was really exciting actually, learning about what was possible with getting all these buildings that like—PTH and all the members had already, sort of like, been surveying and had already been talking to, and door knocking, right? Because like I came in at a time where so much work had already been done to lay the groundwork for me to be able to like start knocking on doors, or continue knocking on doors, right? To continue to give folks information about what it is that we're trying to do, and how to do it, right? If they all wanted to join and get on board with basically saving their buildings.
 
Lewis: [00:46:10] So your job, your job title was...
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah. I was the East Harlem CLT organizer. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: Which was different than the other organizers, right? Because
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Very different.
 
Lewis: the other organizers—yeah, were organizing folks who were homeless. And your job... We had so much hope that CLT's could actually create new units of housing, for people who are homeless and really, really poor. And so, when you were hired, we were still very, very hopeful.
The aspiration was that, if we could hire an effective organizer that they could, you know, have really deep conversations with tenants, so that they would know that this was a—like an option. That even though the city wasn't giving it to them, it was something they could demand, and that we would have their back.
 
Lewis: [00:47:23] And so do you—do you remember, like more or less, how many apartments... I know we had a like a list of "maybe buildings"... So, do you remember all of that? Could you share any of those memories, how many you started out with and what those experiences were like?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: It was a long, long list and I remember being in Jenny's office—I shared an office with Jenny, and there being like butcher paper on the wall with like all the addresses, and all the info of what buildings folks had gone into and which ones they had made contacts in. And I, you know—I looked at all the info that had already—that was already there, and like all the work that folks had already done. Joel was the previous organizer prior to me, and you know, they had already talked to tenants in some of the buildings that I went into. I remember it being really hard initially, especially in some of the buildings in East Harlem where folks still really wanted the HPD TIL program to work. [Smiles]
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:48:44] I remember this one building where the T.A. leader was very, very powerful. I forget the address—127th maybe? Maybe a building on 127th. And they had a pretty active tenant association, but I helped revive it. I forget the woman's name, but she had a lot of sway and was very powerful and trying to convince her that the city's failing everyone, and that together we could actually make something really powerful happen in their building for all—for her and for all her neighbors, was really hard.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:49:25] And I remember, you know, many meetings with her... A lot of back and forth... A lot of, sort of—change, like her mind would change a lot. You know, at points she would be really in it, was all about the CLT. And then she would, you know, go back to thinking the TIL, the Tenant Interim Lease program, I think that's what the program was called, would work for her. You know, and so, under the program that HPD had created, like back in the ‘70s, I believe—the city was using sweat equity so that these folks living in these dilapidated buildings in East Harlem could renovate their buildings, with the help from the city. And in the end, if they were able to meet the requirements of the HPD program, they would be able to buy their units for two-hundred and fifty dollars. But at that time that I had gone into the buildings to organize with the tenants, the amount to buy a unit had increased to twenty-five hundred dollars. And so that made it even more difficult for the tenants to be able to meet all the requirements of the program.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:50:52] And like HPD—just in my opinion, wasn't doing a good job at all, at like administering the program, at making sure that the tenants had all the information and all the resources that they needed to even be successful. And so, we knew it was going to fail! Because it had already been failing for decades. And so, you know—my job, as I knew it, was to get all these folks organized to demand better from the city by trying to get their buildings on a Community Land Trust.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:51:28] And you know, just that one example of that one building was really difficult. Because one—the tenants were already kind of unaware at all about even this program that they were a part of. And then there were people, like the T.A. leader who had a lot of sway over the rest of her neighbors and it was like, if I could convince her, [smiles] then all the tenants would also be open to the idea that, "Yeah! Maybe we should fight for this thing that will make it so that our units could be renovated, and we could have control, like actual control over our units. And I remember trying to explain Mutual Housing Associations for the first time, and I remember really flopping a lot, because it was a concept that I even was trying to understand at first.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:52:26] And so I, you know—I would get really nervous whenever I went into a building because I wanted to do a really good job to explain these concepts that for me were new even, right? And to how to explain it to someone who, you know—is monolingual Spanish, a monolingual Spanish speaker, right? Or someone who might not even want to even talk to me. All those things made me really nervous; I remember.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:52:53] But there were certain tenants that I met, in me doing the canvasing and the outreach in like all these buildings that were on this list that PTH had, and thinking of course, that it was really difficult. But then meeting some tenants that were actually really awesome and like really wanted to make this happen. I remember Flor, who would pronounce his name in a really funny way, like this short little old Puerto Rican man in... I forget his building, 125th, maybe? East 125th?
 
Lewis: 126th...
 
Namuche-Pacheco: East 126th? Yeah. It was a small building, in a part of the neighborhood that was like all warehouses. But they were standing, still in their building. And that one building was all in, except for one tenant, I think who I never really fully met. [Smiles] but everyone else was fully in, you know. And Flor would like go to the meetings, he would go to the rallies. Like he would be—he would come to our office and be like with other PTH members, you know? Like he was all in. And like, meeting folks like Flor. I just—I can sort of like hear it in my head how he would pronounce his name [smiles] in a very distinct way, like "Flor." Not like that actually, but "Flor." [Rolls R's] But he was just like, I don't know. He was just like such a—a really awesome person to me, because he actually gave me hope to keep like, doing the canvasing and keep doing the outreach. But it was so hard. It was really hard.
 
Lewis: [00:54:38] What was your—what was the experience, or the relationship between… You're in the office, sharing an office with Jenny and the housing campaign, right, is working on—at that time, they're working on cluster sites and they're... But you had like a kind of a deep bench of members who understood about CLT's, and working on Housing Not Warehousing. And you're—you know, I don't want to mischaracterize how you felt, but you know, the idea was that you would somehow [smiles] like form a bridge, or be a bridge between people that lived in these buildings that were kind of crumbling around them and owned by the city and partially occupied, and homeless folks who had come up with a bunch of policy solutions, to create housing. Who would have… It would have been fabulous if they could have lived in those empty apartments. And so how was your relationship... What was your relationship like with Picture the Homeless members? You know, did they engage with you in outreach, or just informal conversations? How did that go for you?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:55:56] I think that might have been the easiest part of my role at PTH was working with the—with like leaders and members of PTH, I think was the easiest part for me because they actually would school me on the issue and would, you know, would brief me on what had already happened. I remember like meeting Ms. Henry, and you know, meeting Marcus and Althea, and even folks like Charmel—who maybe wasn't totally involved in the CLT work but was always down to help and would also join the meetings. And, you know I remember when we had like our general PTH meetings, we would, you know, do a section on like the East Harlem CLT and everyone would always be so interested in what was happening, because that meant potential housing for folks.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:57:03] And to the leaders at PTH that were working alongside me at that time, that was so important. I remember Althea always coming to the office Jenny shared it and like, sitting next to me and asking, "Hey, so what's happening? What's happening in the buildings?" Like, I remember her sitting next to me on my computer [smiles] and asking what was up and she—yeah, she would always come to the meetings. I remember the meetings that we had, not just for the CLT, but even like the meeting meetings that we would have with Community Voices Heard around the rezoning at like 111th Street, things like that, just these neighborhood fights.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:57:45] But in terms of like PTH members sort of leading the charge for the campaign? I can honestly say that they really did lead it. Because I think had it not been for the PTH members at that time when I worked there, I don't think I would have felt comfortable doing my work, just alone. Because... I don't know if it's okay for me to say this, but maybe you can cut it. [Laughs] But, you know, my direct supervisor wasn't really... Like, didn't understand the work. And so I looked to the members, really. And I look to you, of course, and to Jenny and Ryan. But the members, I think, were the ones who like really would help lead the charge for the CLT.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:58:47] I did of course, a lot of doorknocking. I did, you know, I spent most of my time doing canvasing and having meetings with the different buildings. And even though it was a long list, unfortunately, it dwindled down to just a handful of buildings—which, you know made sense, I guess. But it ended up being that way also just because of HPD and the power that they had. And so I think focusing on certain buildings... I guess at that time made sense based on— you know, whether they were vacant, or how many unoccupied units there were in some of these buildings. But I think looking at all those factors, made it so that the long list of buildings that we were canvasing in, dwindled down to only a handful.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [00:59:43] But I… I feel like I wish... I really wish I could have stayed at PTH longer. I was there for like, what? It was like eleven months, not even a full year, and I always regret that because I feel like I learned a lot. I kind of feel like I extracted [laughs] a lot from PTH, and didn't give enough in return. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I feel like—I feel like I put in the work, of course. I always try to do my best wherever I am. But, I literally learned so much. Yeah.
 
Lewis: What kinds of things did you learn?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Oh. Oh, no, I'm going to cry. I'm sorry.
 
Lewis: It's okay. I might cry, too!
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I feel like maybe I gave up a little too easily. [Crying] When I really... I probably… I wish I would have stayed at PTH much longer. I feel like I learned a lot about—I think, for the very first time I learned about how direct action literally gets the goods. Like, you know people throw that phrase around a lot, but at PTH it was like—what members lived. And I thought that was really, really powerful. And I think it's the first time I ever learned as an organizer what that meant. And I think to me that has.. I feel like that has driven all the organizing work I've done since then.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:01:30] Even though I've worked at non-profits, I think in like my free time, the kind of organizing that I do in my free time is trying to be an example of what I learned at PTH. And I tell anyone I can about what I learned at PTH, because it left a huge imprint on me I think, as an organizer. And I just learned a lot about like the resilience of people and just, sort of like the struggle—and the struggle for housing is real. And I think I really... I'm not saying this adequately, but I just think I owe a lot to PTH. And it's... It's—I don't know. I will always be grateful for my short run at PTH, and I always regret that I left so early.
 
Lewis: [01:02:47] Well, for the record, I wish you had stayed also. Could you describe like what was the office like? Like, what was the vibe like working there?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [Laughs] The vibe was amazing. A little scary sometimes. I remember once the cops came in very abruptly, and I remember Nikita trying to protect all of us and trying to de-escalate the situation. But working at that office, I think... I have a lot of great memories of being in that office. Like, really beautiful memories and it's something—my dream is to recreate a space like PTH in my own neighborhood.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: But that office was really noisy at times, really bustling at times. Sometimes it was dead silent, and no one was there. But usually people were always around—maybe using the computer, maybe in the kitchen cooking something for themselves, or for others. You know, a meeting happening probably every day, in the conference room. Someone in the front, you know, greeting people or taking care of admin. stuff.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:04:31] I think people really tried to help run—like members and leaders, right—tried to help run the office. Sometimes, you know, we didn't even have a staff member sometimes, to oversee the management of the office. And so, like leaders would really step up. And I thought that was really beautiful you know, members trying to protect the space, you know, trying to keep control. Sometimes got a little out of hand [laughs] with folks trying to keep control of things. But I—you know, I knew where that was coming from and... I just, it was really... It was fun! You know, a lot of the times it was fun. Whether it was like having a conversation with folks, with members, or with like my fellow organizers, like Nikita and Ryan and other staff. It was, yeah. It was really fun. I mean, not all the time, but I really remember the fun memories. Like, I will never forget the fun memories. Like Nikita listening to music, messing with Ryan, ganging up on Ryan. [Laughs] It was just fun.
 
Lewis: [01:05:50] Are there—when you say that, you know, it wasn't always fun... Are there memories of things that were hard, or challenging that you want to share?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah. I think [pauses] sometimes it got a little crazy in the office and, you know, I think we would have to make sure that folks were okay. We were next... I don't remember if the Harm Reduction organization was right next to us at that time. Was it NYHRE? NYHRE I think was next to us. And so, you know... I had never been to East 125th before, working... Or, I had never spent like hours and hours of my day in East Harlem and the way I did of course, working at PTH, when we had an office at 125th. And so I think learning that, you know—the neighborhood was... That there were like shelters, a lot of shelters in the area, or that people were being bussed from—what was the shelter? Not Randall's Island...
 
Lewis: Wards Island.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Wards Island, right? That people would get bussed into East 125th, from the shelter. You know, it was like... I think it was not—it wasn't shocking, but it just meant that there was a lot of activity on that street. And so sometimes that activity would be inside the office, too. And I don't have any like, memories that stand out. But sometimes, you know, a couple of times I remember things maybe getting heated with certain members. I remember one member that got even angry at me, and I also got upset and Nikita had to come in between us to like, help de-escalate.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:08:09] But... I—yeah. Because that one particular… I mean, he wasn't an active member, but would come in once in a while. This gentleman like came and was acting pretty grossly. And I, you know—I was like, standing up for myself and Nikita came in and stepped in between to de-escalate the potential fight [laughs] that could have happened. Yeah. But, I only really have the memories.... Really, the only memories that stand out are like the really beautiful memories that I'll take to my grave and that I will never, never, never forget, and a lot of those memories actually revolve around Nikita.
 
Lewis: [01:09:01] Do you have one that you want to share?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [Laughs] There's... I don't know. I think—it's not a memory really, but it's like a feeling. Like the feeling—of like feeling... You know, sometimes when you are new in a space, you feel really—maybe inadequate or like, don't have a lot of confidence that you're welcomed. And when I came to the space for the first time, just meeting Nikita, I felt, "Wow. Like, okay. This is gonna be chill.” I, you know—I feel at home, because of that feeling I felt from Nikita. Like, no pretense, just like chill, laid back, telling it like it is. I just felt really like, protected. And like, even though maybe—I mean, there were times where, yeah things would be really loud in the office sometimes, but I knew Nikita was there, and I knew everything would be fine, because he's there. I don't know if that makes sense, but I don't have any particular memory about like, or any particular thing other than I guess, when Nikita would get dressed up and would, you know, be all fancy. And that was really nice for like the fundraisers and stuff. But I just remember the feeling of being around Nikita, and it felt very different from being around other people. A very fatherly kind of, sort of warming feeling. And I don't feel that many times from other people. It's—I don't know if I'm doing a good job at explaining it, but it's like a very rare thing, to feel just this, like—connection, right? Like, just friendly, like chill… Has your back, you know—like what do the kids say? Like, "Ride or die." Like, you know—like he's just down—and you feel protected. And I think I never worried about anything when I was that PTH, because he was around.
 
Lewis: [01:11:38] [Pause] Yeah. I thought I would be sad when I listened to his interview. You know, when I was finalizing the transcript, but I... It made me feel really happy—knowing him and that we have his reflections about the work. And I think he made a lot of people feel safe, and that's one of the reasons why he was such a good organizer, was that people trusted him. And that maybe didn't—wouldn't have trusted any of the rest of us. Not so easily, anyway.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: He was such a great organizer. It was really annoying that he didn't know how to use email. [Laughs] But he was a really great organizer.
 
Lewis: Well, we all can't be good at everything. [Smiles]
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I remember he would call me "Quel, Quel." That was really sweet. He would always have names for people.
 
Lewis: [01:12:38] Yeah. [Pause] I want to kind of shift a little bit because one of the things that you did—that, some of this is you Raquel, being skilled and warm and kind. But some of it is just, I think, the impact that having a Spanish speaking—a native Spanish speaking, a Latina woman organizer had—on the organizing in the buildings. Because, at the end of the Rabble Rousers film the other night, they showed a couple of photos, right? And they had you speaking with people that... And they had like a big meeting, there was a photo of a big meeting. I don't know if it was across the street in that building, or somewhere else.
 
Lewis: [01:13:38] But there was a building on 110th that was boarded, or bricked up, but somehow the tenants were supposed to have remained [laughs] a functional tenant association, and kept meetings and things. And they had, I guess, ten—for ten years, not been able to go back home. And you were able to organize with monolingual Spanish speaking tenants, in a very effective way. And I don't know if you want to share any of those, kind of those—the nitty gritty of... Not just like Flor's building where they were all quite elderly, but still there. And then the building like on 110, where people were kind of living in, I guess, Manhattan and the Bronx? And how did you approach that? How did you build relationships with people, and gain their trust? Because, you know—Nikita was good at that—but you also did that, with those tenants. And you know, if you could just describe that process a little bit.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:15:01] I do remember that. Those tenants had been relocated, right? To different—to other buildings, and yeah, and most of them were monolingual Spanish speakers. I don't remember... I know that we had their contacts and so on the phone, calling them for the first time, trying to convince them that we should meet at the Dunkin Donuts, [laughs] or whatever at 125th would be a good—at the McDonald's I mean, would be a good idea. It took a couple of tries to convince them to meet with me or to have them invite me to their apartments where they had relocated. Where they had already lived for many years [smiles], I learned.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:15:52] And so when I met the first woman, I remember her daughter had also been relocated, and I believe it was the same building that she was staying in, in a different unit. But then, they're the ones who put me in touch with some of the other tenants. I remember even going to the Bronx to also meet with another tenant, and she was an elder—like in her ‘90s! Who was waiting for a very, very long time to go back to her renovated apartment. And— I mean, this is also one of the reasons why I regret leaving this campaign and the organization so early, because I never really got to see through the work. And I never got to continue to work with these folks that I had met. And I think that's the hard part of organizing, and you know, if you're not staying at an organization for several years, you kind of just don't know how their story ends.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:17:07] And I remember feeling like it was going to be difficult to explain to them what we were trying to do. But once I met them, I remember it was actually fairly easy. It wasn't really hard to convince these folks, because they had already been relocated for several years, I believe. If I remember correctly. And so for them, you know, it would be sort of a fast track way to get their units—their home, their building, renovated. And they wanted to go back home to their original building. And so, it wasn't really difficult to convince them. I think the difficult part was mainly having them come to meetings. [Smiles] But we were able to pull it off, to some degree. But I remember having two large meetings, and one of those meetings I think is captured in the movie, in Rabble Rousers. And that meeting was pretty beautiful. I remember trying to figure out ways to get folks to like agree—collectively, that they were all in. And I remember printing out the logo, the East Harlem CLT logo, on like card—on like postcard paper, or whatever you call that. Cardstock! Sorry, cardstock paper. And then at the end of the meeting they all like lifted up the sign. [Smiles]. And you were there too, I think. You were in—I mean, you were certainly in one of those meetings. I think one of those meetings was across, like on your street, in one of those centers, in like the big renovated—like a new building that had like a community space on the ground floor. 
 
Lewis: Friendly Hand's Ministries,
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yes!
 
Lewis: which I always found to be a strange name. [Laughs]
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:18:55] Yeah. I remember at the end of that meeting, Ricardo Echevarria, who at that time worked at HPD—being really angry with me. I don't know why. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: Why would you think you he would? I mean, what was the relationship with HPD during all of this?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: He wasn't even involved [laughs], so I have no idea where he even came from. But I remember him being at one of the meetings at the end and like—yelling or something. And I was like, "What? Who are you?" With HPD it was, I don't know... HPD is—I don't know. You know, we were trying to have an amicable relationship with HPD I think, because we were really... We needed them, right? To like, turn over the buildings... I'd never had so many meetings until working at PTH, because we would meet with HPD with the Asset Management Unit, on a regular basis, sometimes weekly, I remember having phone calls with them—and then monthly meetings, like in person meetings. And I remember, you know, at that time, folks were trying to also build up the board, the CLT board.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:20:18] And I think, you know, the meetings with HPD—I remember them, you know, at times getting heated because they really didn't want to do much for tenants. But—and also they just didn't want to realize that their program just didn't work, and that they should just turn over the… I think in the end it was like four buildings, and one was totally empty. And I feel like it would have been really cool to see that work through. But I think I did the best I could in these meetings with HPD because of course they're like "all professional" and dressed nicely and in suits and whatever, and here we came [smiles], you know—trying to do the best we could for the folks who really wanted this to happen, who needed this to happen, you know—like PTH members and the folks in the buildings.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:21:16] And it was like a learning experience for me definitely, and like a crash course on like dealing with City agencies, and it was really frustrating I think, because it just seemed so... I mean, to me it just seemed so easy. [Smiles] But there were many obstacles I think— that they put in place. I am happy that we did have, you know—some people fighting on the inside or seemingly fighting on the inside for PTH. I think it made me learn about having like an inside-outside strategy, which sometimes is necessary. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:22:03] And so at that time, you're doorknocking and you're trying to convince or educate people about the CLT/MHA option, and that they could opt in. And do you recall what HPD was requiring for a building to be able to opt in, and what that was?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: To opt into the CLT, or....
 
Lewis: Mm-Hmm.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I don't remember.
 
Lewis: I remember there was at one time they wanted eighty percent of the tenants
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yes!
 
Lewis: To opt in, and then they changed it to like one-hundred percent, and then it went back to eighty percent, and they were sending all this—this very legally worded letters in English-only to tenants, and you were trying to translate them. But they were—it was very legal, and we asked HPD about the translation. Do you recall that?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I do remember now, yes. And it was particularly frustrating because in one of the buildings, the building that had the most active tenant association, we had like basically— everyone wanted it. And I remember even having a petition with all the signatures that were necessary. I think it was more than eighty percent and at that time. At one point it was very close to one-hundred percent. And I remember it not being close to one-hundred percent, just because I couldn't get—I didn't get to meet some of the tenants. And that was the building where the tenant association president had a lot of sway. But we were able to actually convince her, like she was on our side. Yeah. And I remember doing that petition twice actually, because HPD was imposing all these rules on us. But I remember—yeah, I remember that time being really frustrating because we did actually meet all the requirements, I thought. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:24:18] It seemed that they... It wasn't a new program, because they had done this with Cooper Square, when it was called the Division of Alternate Management Programs, and then they changed it to Asset Management, DAMP—but the acronym was the same, and some of the HPD staff were the same people.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Like… Miss Hendrickson, some of them were the same, but they acted like they had never heard of it.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:24:50] I do recall you having to translate these very legal notices from HPD and us telling them they should translate it, because we—one, we wanted to make sure it was correct, but not because we didn't have confidence in you, but we didn't want to give them an excuse.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And we wanted the tenants to trust that it was legit, because when we were giving them things, it was like, "Okay, you're really nice, [laughs] you Picture the Homeless people... But you know, who the fuck are you?”
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Like, “We need to hear from HPD that this is a real thing."
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yep.
 
Lewis: [01:25:30] And they were dragging their feet. At one point, there was a building where they didn't want you to go in the building anymore? Or you were getting like—not welcomed to come into the—I think it was the building on 127th, it had like forty units. I think it was where the Tenant Association president had a lot of sway.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: It might have been that building, maybe 129th, or... Yeah.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: 127th or 129th... I forget what that was about. But yeah, but I remember though, that I made friends with some of those tenants, and I think it was unfortunate that the TA president, Tracy? I forget her name, but she had a lot of sway and power in that building. I remember having meetings in the little office that they had on the ground floor. The tenant association, they had a little community space, but it was like essentially another apartment that was unoccupied where they would meet and we would have our East Harlem CLT meetings in that building, that room, in that apartment.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I remember she made me really nervous and that was like my main obstacle I think, in that building—just the fact that she controlled a lot. And that was—I think that it's because she maybe wanted the best for her building? But, it was unfortunate that maybe some people's voices weren't totally, you know, uplifted because of her having so much control. There were a lot of elders in that building too, which was also really unfortunate. Because all the folks, all the older folks that I met, were really into it and I wonder what happened to them.
 
Lewis: [01:27:44] [Pause] In terms of the impact that Picture the Homeless had on the development of the East Harlem/El Barrio Community Land Trust, what do you think the—like the gains were for homeless folks, from that process?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I am… I was really grateful that Tito, in one of the screenings for Rabble Rousers gave props to PTH. [Audio gets wonky due to a poor internet connection] Because, I don't think homeless folks are given enough credit in the CLT movement…  Yeah, I don't think homeless folks are given enough credit when it comes to the formation of the CLT movement, like the more modern CLT movement in New York City. I think we should really give all the credit to folks at PTH who helped initiate NYCCLI, right? Who helped form NYCCLI, along with all the supporters [pause] like John—you know, John Krinsky, and folks like Ken Wray, and Banana Kelly, and you know… all the quote unquote experts. [Smiles]
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:29:31] You know, I think homeless folks put in a lot of work and not just in the East Harlem CLT but in general, on various levels around different housing issues in New York City. And it kind of—it makes me pretty sad that PTH isn't given the credit it deserves. And, you know, like the campaign to end warehousing is really big again in New York City! But I wonder if enough of those folks know that PTH did two vacancy counts, you know? And like, they did it themselves through participatory research, right? They did it.  
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:30:22] And things like that I think, make me feel that I wish the voices of homeless folks—especially of PTH members, were recognized more in some of the housing fights that we have now. And I feel like maybe that's why sort of like in the organizing work that I do now, I'm thinking more about learning from history and doing more political education and how that really has to be ingrained into it, like all aspects of the organizing work that we do.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:31:03] But in terms of like—I think your question was more like what was gained from the fight of homeless folks? I think we have a lot to thank homeless folks for. [Smiles] I think many people, I think especially many organizers, don't realize that homeless folks led the way for a lot of our current housing fights.
 
Lewis: [01:31:37] You know, people like John, and Tom, and Ken, and Harry from Banana Kelly—Valerio of course, and Francis and Harriet and the folks from Cooper Square... I think when we met, we started working with Valerio and Cooper Square—we knew of course, always. But the other folks were already, you know, the age I am now, or older except for John Krinsky, and were really experts in their own right, about all kinds of housing struggles. But I think Picture the Homeless provided the inspiration and the spark.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: Yeah.
 
Lewis: So, it's not that we necessarily taught them things they didn't know already,
 
Namuche-Pacheco- Yeah.
 
Lewis: but it wasn't until Picture the Homeless put the call out, that NYCCLI was formed.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: And I think that one of the challenges is, you know, passing legislation is such a grind and of course, passing legislation and all the policy work without a really serious direct action component—you kind of just get what the city wants to give you, and even that takes years. And I think Picture the Homeless, in kind of almost a poetic way, sparked the imagination. Like, "Yeah, there are empty buildings and yeah, there are people that could live there, and why not?" But it's not something that was like—you know, discovering [laughs] a star that no one's ever seen. It was very common sense.
 
Lewis: [01:33:43] But I think you're right in terms of credit, but also in terms of the demands. Because to me, one of the most beautiful things about Picture the Homeless—and it comes through in the interviews with long term leaders is, yeah, maybe on some level people thought they were going to get one of those apartments, but really people were doing it because it was the right thing to do and hopefully someone would get, some homeless person would get the apartment. So it wasn't that Althea or Ms. Henry only did it because they thought they were going to get that apartment. They did it because it was the right thing to do, and it was important. And you know that kind of commitment to justice, I think is really beautiful. But we don't see that same—we don't see that reciprocated from—for example, most of the CLT movement is not saying, "Line in the sand. If we don't have housing that homeless people could live in, then no deal." And so I wonder, what do you think it's going to take to make that happen, or if it's possible?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:35:10] I hope it's possible and I do think it's possible. I remember someone—even like Althea, who was already housed, right? Who was still very involved in the CLT campaign and wanted it to work, wanted it to become a reality. And I think that's because PTH was—like she was devoted to the organization. And not enough people are devoted to organizations or organizing in general in a way that like they can give their all. I think like someone like Althea was there, at protests, at marches and meetings, really devoted to the work and I think we don't have enough people that are devoted in that way to these movements, and I want… Like in my own neighborhood, I organize with a group called the Ridgewood Tenants Union, and it's a group I started in 2014 because of just the real changes we're seeing with gentrification hitting us. And during the pandemic in May of 2020, when the city—when the mayor shut down the trains, they expelled all the homeless folks out of the subways in the coldest time of the year.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:37:02] And our group decided to form a homeless organizing project. And initially, we called it the homeless outreach project. And then it took many conversations, that I led, to make folks understand that we can't just do outreach and give people supplies. We've got to actually organize folks. And so we changed the name of that project to homeless organizing project. And it's really difficult, I think to have people understand—like housed folks and folks that have various privileges, to understand that just because someone might not have a home or is street homeless or in a shelter, that they actually can stand up for themselves or have like all the abilities to do that for themselves. And I learned that, you know, homeless folks—in all the previous work I've done, you know, I know that homeless folks want what everyone else wants too, right? And they have all the abilities in the world to be able to fight for that, alongside you. And we should make that happen, right?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:38:22] We can create the conditions so that homeless folks can organize alongside us. And I think that was really powerful about PTH, you know... We had a kitchen, we had a center, we had a community space. People could check their emails, could get email or mail— right, in the office. It was a space where we could create the conditions for folks to come and sit down for a meeting and think about like, the long fight and I think that's what's needed in order to make it possible for homeless folks to fight alongside everyone else, for all these fights. And I think that's possible.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:39:04] And I—at least I want to help continue to make that possible here in my neighborhood, even though it's challenging. But I've already seen it. I've already seen it happen. We have various examples of that happening in Ridgewood and I think we need to—maybe this is the wrong word, but we need to integrate [laughs] homeless folks into all of our organizing campaigns, right? Because I think there's many folks out there who want to organize on all these various issues, whether it's a community land trust, campaigns to like end warehousing, Good Cause campaign, you know like—all these campaigns, I think homeless folks need to be involved in all of these fights.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:40:03] But obviously, you know, there's always obstacles to make that happen. But I feel like organizers and groups—organizing groups, need to have a bit more imagination as to how we involve everyone. But yeah, but one of my gripes is that of course non-profits work in silos sometimes, or often. And are so bound to like, city grants and foundation grants that it makes it really difficult to organize in a way that's really organic, and that can take into account everyone that lives in a neighborhood, right? Because you live in a neighborhood with all kinds of people. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:40:55] Do you have any final thoughts about Picture the Homeless that you want to share?
 
Namuche-Pacheco: I... Just that I'm like, forever grateful for being an organizer at PTH, extremely grateful and I will never, ever forget working at PTH. It was a very special time for me, I think. I learned so much and—you know, I mean, some of my good friends are staff members that were working with me at that time, you know? Like someone like Jenny and Ryan, you know, I still work with them even now. Marcus looks at my Instastories, every day, whenever I post them, like comments on them, and asks about my cat and how he's doing. I actually even invited Marcus to Ridgewood because he—you know, is still doing work for PTH and you know, trying to keep things afloat, keep it alive. And so, I invited him to a meeting here in Ridgewood, and he came, and people were really impressed by Marcus, and all the organizing work that he's doing.
 
Namuche-Pacheco: [01:42:26] And, you know, I think PTH, you know—like I said earlier, left a really big imprint on me and I will forever be grateful for the friendships and the people I met during my time at PTH, my short lived time at PTH. But I learned a lot. I learned all kinds of things that make me the type of person and organizer I am now. So, I'm forever grateful.
 
Lewis: Well, thank you, Raquel, for taking the time. I appreciate you and the heart that you brought to the work.

[End of Interview]