Marcus Moore (Interview 2)

Lewis: [00:00:00] Good afternoon.

Moore: Good afternoon.

Lewis: I’m here with—

Moore: Marcus Moore.

Lewis: —again, for our second session, and happily so. How are you today?

Moore: I’m doing great.

Lewis: [00:00:17] Good, Marcus—um… there I go, saying um—so you’ve had a chance to review your transcript from the first interview session, and some time to think about the project. And so, what are your thoughts about this oral history stuff?

Moore: I think it’s great. I was skimming through it, and it just brought back a lot of memories of my life with Picture the Homeless. And it’s just amazing to see that I’m able to make it through another year with Picture the Homeless and it’s also amazing to me that the stuff that I’ve been able to do with Picture the Homeless, from back then to this time—it’s really amazing to me that I’m able to still volunteer and no one is putting any checks in my pocket. I’m sincerely volunteering my time to humanity.

Lewis: [00:01:34] Mm-Hmmmm. And why is it that you do that?

Moore: So, I figured out a long—I figured this thing out, to help me to get myself some kind of clarity. It doesn’t matter how many… It doesn’t matter how much you get paid on your job. It doesn’t matter how much you act like it’s not your problem, it’s those people’s problem. You’re going to be affected, some way or another, by the issues and the things, and the unjust and the unfairness, and the gap being really—widening. You’re going to be affected, rich or poor, sooner, or later. For some, it might take a much more longer time, because we live in a economic—we live in a monetary system. But eventually, you’ll be affected! And so these issues, these things, come up whether you have money or not, and if you don’t address it, it’s just going to get worse. So you can jump on the bandwagon, or you can walk around, act like you’re invisible and like—just acting like those things don’t exist with you.

Lewis: [00:02:46] Marcus, when you came today, and you were saying that you were thinking about sustainability and when I was thinking about this interview, the first thing that popped in _my _mind was sustainability. It’s something that I admire very much about you. And you mentioned in your… I’m going to read a little quote from our first interview.

Moore: Okay.

Lewis: [00:03:17] You say, “Once I learned what the community was doing to sustain itself, that kind of took me to another level, as far as homesteading and community land trusts, because we knew we was no longer waiting for institutions or individuals.” Could you talk a little bit more about that? What you were not waiting for, and what you’ve decided to do for yourself.

Moore: [00:03:48] Wow, [smiles] sometimes I surprise myself [laughter] when it comes to certain things I be saying. So, I’m going to start by saying, once I saw how the community was sustaining themselves, you know—I learned how to get on the bandwagon. I learned what they learned. There’s no egos. I stayed to the point where I was teachable, where people didn’t mind taking me with them and going places to get resources. I really didn’t ask much questions. I really learned how to be a follower, to the point that this is what I must do to get this. This is what I must do to—well, if I say this, then I will be able to do this. If I act this way, then I know that they’ll let me stay here and get that. So, I learned how to maintain my hygiene, maintain my... I learned how to use—I should say… Without spending money, I learned how to use, used clothes to help me to maintain.

Moore: [00:05:30] And so, with—you know, the community that I’m part of wasn’t going to Macy’s every day to shop. They were using used clothes, and free showers, and different places like that, to help them to maintain in places and spaces where they’re not being offensive as far as their body is concerned. You know, there’s people that come out quarterly to hand out things like blankets, toiletries, winter jackets... Used, brand-new—who really cares? As long as it was clean, it could fit, you know—we pretty much ran with it. So, I’m going to stop right there.

Lewis: [00:06:29] Alright. When you say the community that you’re a part of who are you referring to?

Moore: I’m referring to people who are normally oppressed, people who have been written off the map as undesirables, you know. People who have been, at one time, very productive in this here gravy train they call society in this nation. These people are no longer of that elite class anymore. These people are barely living, with themselves. These people are still around, but they’re not earning the big paychecks like they used to when they was much—they was, earlier on in their careers or whatever they was doing at the time.

Lewis: [00:07:26] Okay. And… You had mentioned, also in your—the first interview, about living guerilla. And so, if they’re not earning the big paychecks, but they’re living guerrilla, how are folks not only able to survive, _but thrive, _in this environment?

Moore: So people these days are taking risks. Risk is starting to be the new hope. And so if you’re not taking risks these days, then you’re almost in a situation where you just—I don’t know how to put this. You’re going to deteriorate, or you’re just going to die! And so, I’ve learned how to take risks, manage my risk. I know that there’s going to be a lot of risk-taking. If I’m not going to take the risk, then I don’t know if I’ll be able to advance if I don’t take a risk. So, I’ve learned how to take risks.

Moore: [00:08:50] I’ve learned how to take the time to study things and situations at the library. I’ve learned how to get opinions from my networks and different communities. You know, the Bible says, “a wise man seeks counsel.” And so, in my community, there’s a lot of counseling, because these people might be houseless, but they are from backgrounds that people would never have imagined, where we constantly inspire each other, believe it or not, and want the best for each other. We love to see one of our kind come from the back to the front and win.

Lewis: [00:09:37] Mmmm. I love that. What are some of the… Is homesteading one of the risks that you’re taking?

Moore: Homesteading, yes—it’s a big risk. It’s a big risk. It’s a way of pulling yourself up, as some people might say, and making something happen for yourself. You know, it’s—people—I think tradition… Doing things traditionally has failed and has worn out over the years in this nation, where people have to create their own movements or their own—got to make something happen for themselves, where they can be able to be effective for the masses. If you’re just like a million bunch of other people, it’s hard for you to go out there and advocate or stand up for a whole lot of other people when you’re just down and out yourself.

Moore: [00:10:47] So homesteading has been a way for me to be able to create problems for my oppressor. It’s been a way for me to be able to establish some kind of self-worth. And it’s also been a way for me to be able to have a peace of mind, where I can think critically, intensively, and really just be able to take my mind space. That’s important. _You have to be able to be in a place or space, by the water, wherever it is, the woods, and think! _That is important.

Lewis: [00:11:35] Hmmmm. It sounds almost as if you’re speaking of how having a physical space is connected to having mental space and a peace of mind.

Moore: So, even… That as well. Even if you have to be by yourself. I have learned—I have learned, and someone told me, “Marcus, you do better by yourself.” And when she told me that, I didn’t know how to accept that, as far as relationship-wise, or what. But I knew that a person needs to have some time to think to see which way, and what’s going to be their next move.

Lewis: [00:12:25] You know, you also mention in the first interview—there were so many things that struck me, but along these lines—a couple of minutes ago, you talked about people dying if they don’t take risks. Dying as a possible outcome and in the last interview, you said, quoting you, “I have been able to say that I have had more stability than a lot of these folks over the years.” Talking about people in shelters and institutions, “and that’s really something to look into.”

Moore: [00:13:05] [Sighs] It is something really to look into. It’s really sad. But… So, what I meant by that is that it seems like, over the years, I have learned that people are experiencing a great deal of hell waiting for services, waiting for things to happen as far as housing is concerned.

Moore: [00:13:50] I’ve just been seeing how I’ve been able to use my training, being part of different organizations, to be able to research and be part of what’s happening out here as far as social justice work to be able to help me, to be able to just inquire and ask questions, than opposed to just getting it secondhand.

Moore: [00:14:25] And so, I guess what I’m trying to say is that I have to get off my butt and do something. I have to go and figure out and ask questions, than opposed to just sitting there and just waiting for my adversary—I think I said that word right—to define or put a label on me, and then tell me—or tell themselves, what they’re going to do with me. I cannot—I cannot afford to just be around or sit around, or just be patient. I was just going to have to be that rabble-rouser.

Lewis: So, one of the things that I’m hearing is you’re talking about—as someone who’s homeless, and you were in the shelter system and you found out about Picture the Homeless, but I know you’re also connected to other groups… For someone who’s homeless, waiting, as you say, for social services to get connected to social justice, what does that mean?

Moore: [00:15:44] [Long pause] Okay so… I believe that… [Long pause] I believe that, when you’re in the system, you’re waiting for something—you’re waiting for the system to tell you, or to set you up with these things for you to live comfortably. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of people that’s not living comfortably in the system. They want to live comfortable in the system, but a lot of folks is not living comfortable in the system.

Moore: [00:16:37] And so… When you’re in the system, you’re looking for the system to help you fight against the system. And so, that doesn’t make sense to me. You’re asking the system, “Is there somebody else who I can call, so I can sic them on you?” I don’t see that happening! I really don’t see that happening. You know, it’s almost like a dead end. You know, it’s like, “Well, we’ll get back to you when we get back to you.”

Moore: [00:17:09] So this—it kind of goes back to, when do you get mad? When do you get mad and just say, “You know what? You know, I’m going to do this. I’m going to start looking around, I’m going to start asking questions... And so, it comes down to you just thinking outside the box, or just trying to figure out who you can go—or what organization that you can go to help you to fight for a particular cause.

Moore: [00:17:47] Now, I mean—I knew… When I was in the shelter system at the time, I knew about organizations, but I didn’t know what they do. Yeah—I didn’t know what they do. I knew it was an unbalance with me. I don’t… I was always walking around mad in this security uniform, because I was always working two jobs here, and two… And you know—and I couldn’t afford an apartment.

Moore: [00:18:14] But I knew that there was—there had to be something else that can help me or give me some kind of satisfaction after I go to work, or on my day off I can go and help make a billboard, a sign, that says, “Housing for All!”

Lewis: [00:18:33] Okay. You had mentioned, before we started interviewing, that when you—when they put you out of the house in Bed-Stuy…

Moore: Yes.

Lewis: You said, “When that got destroyed, I became like a rhino. My skin became stronger and thicker.”

Moore: Ah, yeah, [smiles] you remember that.

Lewis: Could you describe, what was that like?

Moore: [Smiles] So… When that happened…

Lewis: And what was that that happened?

Moore: [00:19:12] So, unfortunately for me, when I came back one night, they kicked out the windows, everything that I had… And that location was exposed to the street, you know—I was really embarrassed for people in the street to be looking in and seeing all my things, and seeing how I was living. And so, it was very hurtful.

Moore: [00:19:35] It was very hurtful friend, for that—for people to see that... I’m hearing people saying, “Aw! That’s the security guard’s place. Why’d they do that? He was nice. Why’d they do that?” Ah, I just hated that they did such a cruel thing. And from that day on, you know—it just made me stronger. Then I went through all the stuff with the police.

Moore: [00:19:59] So, I developed that dialogue from the Kirby Company. The Kirby Company is where I would have… A lot of times, I was a salesman, and I would have to, you know—the only way for me to get inside and sell this product, which was close to two thousand [dollars], I would have to take all this rejection from people. The door slamming in my face. People just acting like they’re not home. I’m in the home with people. I warm up really good with them, and they still don’t buy the machine.

Moore: [00:20:36] So, I learned how to be creative in the streets. I learned how to take no and say, “Well, I’m getting closer to yes.” And so, I’ve learned what else can possibly happen? I think some of the worst have already happened! What can happen now? Maybe I can have a Dr. Pepsi or something like that and sit down and think about my next move. But I refuse, I refuse, to lay down and quit.

Lewis: [00:21:14] All right. So, in terms of being a leader at Picture the Homeless, do you have some Picture the Homeless memories that make you smile or make you laugh?

Moore: [00:21:36] Hmmmm. There’s like a lot of moments. There is. Well, just recently, one of our staff persons, he just recently left—Ryan Hickey. Ryan and I shared a lot of time together. We’ve been on trips together… And so, I was really disappointed to see that he’s moving on, and now I have to get used to someone else, you know. I wish the best for him. I don’t—It’s very selfish for me to say, [imitates gruff voice] “No! I want him to stay for another five years!” You know, that’s not fair. The kid’s got to move on and continue to make their own way in life and whatnot.

Moore: [00:22:51] And so… A lot of staff people have came and gone. I see where I don’t want them to go, but I know that they are just passing through. And so, there’s new staff people that come on, and there’s new relationships starting to form, and you know—that makes me feel good, that I can continue to build new relationships with new staff people, whether they’re young or older, or elder. You know, so it’s—I’m just overwhelmed that I can still be part of—this building relationships and good memories and commitments and stuff like that.

Moore: [00:23:39] So now when I look—when I sit down at Picture the Homeless and go through old footage, I can say, “Oh, that’s Ryan Hickey. He was a good staff person here. I now have some history where I can talk to other, maybe, members and other staff people on some of the accomplishments and things that he did when he was here with the organization and where we’re at now.

Lewis: [00:24:05] Mm-Hmmm. What do you feel some of those accomplishments are?

Moore: Well, this might sound a little corny though, but I think building relationships… I think, I’m going to say it’s not so much of getting wins. That plays a role, too, but getting everybody on the same page. That’s not easy, man! It’s really not easy. Because you have some people, and I have had some members, you know—they figure, they feel, “Oh, he’s never been this, or they’ve never been that, what do they know about this?” You know, some… This thing is not easy.

Moore: [00:24:57] And as soon, you can get people to be on the same page... I’m not saying that everybody on your team have to look like you. You can’t play all the positions. You really can’t. So you need someone that can run the bases, and play first, second, third bases. They might look yellow, purple, green, or blue. But you cannot do it all by yourself. So, I don’t know if that made any sense.

Lewis: It made tons of sense, and it made me think of internal wins, and how… What is a victory? Getting everyone on the same page [laughs] is a victory. It can be a victory if, when we get on that same page, we figure out how to make some stuff happen, right?

Moore: Yeah.

Lewis: [00:25:48] What do you think some of the qualities are in either a staff person or a leader—what are some of the skills that we need to be able to get folks on the same page? What kind of people are able to do that?

Moore: When every… It’s not, it’s not… It’s about the people. It’s not always about how much I’m getting paid to do this. If you’re not here to volunteer, or you really, sincerely want to volunteer, you know—then I’m sorry. Because I’m the first one to tell you, “Yes, I need a lot of that green stuff.” But I’ve been able to maintain, like a disciple over the years and not ask for stuff. It’s just been in place, and I’ve been able to maintain and be able to just be blessed.

Moore: [00:26:46] You’ve got to welcome volunteering—gotta! That’s the only way you’re going to be successful in doing what you’re doing. You’ve gotta learn how to volunteer and care about the people. Everything cannot be for a dollar! Everything can’t come out your mouth, “Well, how much am I getting for this? Well, I’m not doing this because I’m not getting paid.” Oh, man. Good luck. The art of volunteering. Got to master it.

Lewis: Are you going to write that book? [Smiles]

Moore: [Smiles] Gotta master it.

Lewis: [00:27:30] At Picture the Homeless, as a member, was there ever anything that you did that you thought you would never do, since we talked about risk-taking?

Moore: [Long pause] Wow... I guess—I guess I could say that, when I came to Picture the Homeless, I never thought that I would develop a warrior’s mind and spirit. You know, when I came to Picture the Homeless, I was just this tall guy. I was still cool, but I was feeling these mixed feelings inside, and I was kind of mad. And I never thought that—I never thought that I would start living a guerrilla lifestyle. I never thought that I would. [Smiles]

Moore: [00:28:44] And I don’t regret one day of it, because it has helped me to sustain myself into society. Because we mentioned this—I think I touched on this before—tradition, for me to try to maintain tradition, is bumming me out! And so, I had to be… I never thought that I would be living, or take on a warrior spirit when I came through Picture the Homeless. So, I think that would be it for me.

Lewis: [00:29:19] Do you remember a moment, or a situation, where you realized you had that warrior spirit, and you were going to go with it?

Moore: [Long pause] I think… I think I had a conversation [smiles] with a young lady at the time, and her name was… Lynn Lewis? [Laughter] And so, this conversation went something like this, “Marcus, you work?” “Yes, I do work.” “Good. I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t take—I don’t want you to tell me how much you’re getting paid on your job. It’s none of my business. But I know… How much does a room or apartment go for?” “Something like nine-something.” “I don’t know about you, but I would take my paycheck—all these vacancies out here, these homes and stuff like this here… Hmmm… Fix me a door, buy me some paint with my paycheck, start making it a home... They’re not doing nothing with it.” That was like the burning seed of my desire. Is there a song by the name “My Desire”? I don’t know.

Lewis: We’ll look it up. [Smiles]

Moore: [00:3:53] But that conversation was all I needed when I went to work at Food town in Queens at that time. I was able—man, I was on my job. I was getting those shopping carts... I was—you know, the big boss, he was always saying slick stuff out his mouth all the time when he seen me. That particular day, he was just a talking head. I didn’t know what he was saying. All I know—I was just getting shopping carts. I was just doing everything that I needed to do. Those eight hours went by fast, because I only had that conversation on my mind, and a glimpse of the stars!

Lewis: Wow. See how we never know what impact we’re going to have on people?

Moore: [Smiles] I don’t know, but all I heard was—all I could just think about was… That was on my mind—and it’s like I saw him, but I didn’t see him. [Laughs]

Lewis: [00:31:59] You know, you mentioned the word “journey” several times. What’s your journey? Where are you going?

Moore: Wow… Where’s my journey? That’s a good question. I guess only God knows that, right? [Smiles] But, I like to think of my journey of what my creator have for me to do next. I don’t know how that sounds, but... I always thought that I would be somewhere in Europe playing basketball, like Dr. J.! But, it seems like I’m doing some Dr. J’s moves in social justice!

Lewis: Mm-Hmmm.

Moore: So, you know—I see myself finger rolling, maybe finger rolling coming through another city or town. Maybe God might have me to do something on that level as far as social justice work is concerned. But I just can’t stop! Actually, I don’t want to stop. But you know, just recently, I was not feeling well, but thank God that I wasn’t too much out of the picture to stop. But, all I can say is, it’s what my creator would have for me to do next. So, I’ma leave it there.

Moore: [00:33:34] You know what!? Recently, my mother just said… My mother said it, now my uncle said it. He said, “Marcus, you got to do what floats your boat.” What floats my boat. So, family members are seeing stuff that I’m doing now, and no one is talking about my self-value and income. But people are telling me, “You have to do what floats your boat.” Interesting.

Lewis: [00:34:01] What do you think made them kind of shift their approach?

Moore: I think… I think the fun that I’ve been having over the years, helping people… One of my mentors told me, “When you help people, you’re helping yourself.” And so, over the years, I’ve been really enjoying helping people, you know—and I think, where technology is coming at, they get a chance to actually see me in different places around the nation, and just with people.

Moore: [00:34:47] You know, when I was in college, at the time, my major was sociology. And so, I really get a chance to be up on people, and study people, than opposed from reading from textbooks and stuff like that. So. that has really been a love that I have fell in love with, to be able to be up close with different cultures and people.

Moore: [00:35:13] So, I think as the Lord continues to set my path and I continue to be on this journey, maybe that journey might be including me talking more on sustainability for a country that, at one time, claimed to be the home of milk and honey. So, I know that, in my time in this country, this is how people are really living in this milk and honey. So, whether you have a visa or not, think about, do you really want to come here and struggle like a lot of people in this part of the world that they call “the milk and honey.”

Lewis: [00:36:12] Mm-Hmmm. If you had to describe for these folks that are considering coming here, what would you… How would you describe life here in the land of milk and honey?

Moore: [Long pause] Wow. What… How would I describe it? I would have to say—wow, that’s—hmm.

Lewis: [00:36:49] Like, what if someone… What if I were calling you from somewhere, and you picked up the phone, and I said to you, [pretends to be on a telephone] “Hey! I’m thinking about coming to the land of milk and honey. What advice would you have for me? What’s it like there?” What would you say? What’s it like here?

Moore: I would have to say, you know—I wouldn’t try to discourage you. I would say that there is opportunity. There is opportunity. You’re going to have to still work very hard. You’re going to have to have a little muscle and still go to school and all that. But you’re going to have a lot of setbacks and things of that nature, but... You know, you can—it’s still good to come and experience how life is, in this here milk and honey, so... That’s all I can say about that, you know. I’m not going to create any forced imagery and slogans or songs, like Frank Sinatra—[sings] “You can make it anywhere.” I’m not going to dare do that or say that, because this is a different time now. It really is. So, the best thing I can say is, “You can come and just try your best. Try your best. That’s it, friend. Just try your best and be open to the universe.”

Lewis: [00:38:39] Somebody was saying recently that there’s a lot more homeless people now that they see, out in the street. Is that your experience?

Moore: So, the other day, I was working late, and I got a chance to ride the E train. The E train is like what my living room could possibly look like. You know, you saw people stretched out, with their blanket and their nap cap on, trying to get some sleep. You know, the E train was a lot going on, on that line.

Moore: [00:39:12] And so, I… You know, when I’m riding the trains and I’m going places and coming from places, I’m seeing people just collapsing and taking a snooze right where they’re at. That could be on the staircase, the corner, by the ATM machine or the card machine. It’s just—really, I agree, it has increased in a tremendous way. And it’s really—it’s really disappointing to see. Where do you want me to go? Where do you want me to go? You’re not building nothing for me, but I can’t be nowhere.

Moore: [00:40:02] So, it just makes me feel that my poem that I have right now, the “Do or Die!” poem—it seems like—to me, it just seems like a poem that will never… It could still be relevant for a lot more years to come if I’m able to keep saying it. But I do see a lot of homelessness in the New York tristate area. It seems like it’s just not decreasing! I don’t know. [Pause] But, it inspires me to keep on doing the work that I’m doing. It does. Don’t have too much time for games.

Lewis: [00:40:51] And in what ways is it inspiring you?

Moore: Well, it’s inspiring me to… You know—Because I remember, at one time, I used to be out there before I started living how I’ve been living over the years. And I know that I don’t want that for myself or my family members or the generation. So, I know that it’s important for me to continue to get out there and go to meetings and have my input and support others, you know. It’s important for me to be able to continue to be part of things. Whether I’m getting older or younger, I still have to be out there.

Moore: [00:41:40] This is not Marcus Moore’s movement. This is the people’s movement. So I have to get out there and continue to do my share. That could be anything from support, make a sign, do an interview, carry someone to get water. I don’t know. Or ride my bike and just bring water to the people, and just throw out water to people or give people water. It’s something that I can continue to keep doing to support people, the people’s movement, and this madness that’s still going on with people not able to have decent places to live, you know?

Moore: [00:42:32] So… And it’s also challenged me to continue to deal with other people that don’t look like me. We have to continue to be around people who are different backgrounds. We just can’t be comfortable with people who just look like us all the time, you know. We’re going to have to get better.

Lewis: [00:43:00] What are some things that we could do as a movement to help people with that?

Moore: Hmmmm. I think, personally, we have to learn a little bit more about each other. It would be nice, when we start these meetings and different things, to tell people a little bit about where you come from, who you are, you know—share your story. I think that’s an icebreaker right there because there are people…

Moore: [00:43:31] You know, I like to start—like in a soup kitchen. The volunteers, they don’t know about… They kind of know about what goes on in urban areas, but they don’t know anyone that lives this lifestyle. And so, I’ve been coming across a lot of volunteers who are not African American, who are not people of color, but they have taken a liking of me—to want to know… Of course, you know I do a lot of other little things, too, that piques their interest, you know—but that want to know more about the culture and the way I live. And so, I think we have to do that. Yeah, we have to just step out of our circles, rather than just volunteering and giving people food. You know, get a quick conversation in while you’re passing the peas. “Oh, you like peas?” “Yeah.” “So, where are you from? What community are you from? Oh, do they have fresh peas there?” You know, you’re going to have to do it. It’s a lot of interesting conversations come out of just passing people food and serving people food. Oh my goodness. Yes. Mm-hmmm.
 
Lewis: [00:44:59] So you—you had mentioned [laughs] that you do other things that pique people’s interests. Are you—some of those things referring to the poetry and your performing?

Moore: Yes, yes—that’s a big thing with a lot of volunteers with me at a lot of churches. They’re looking for cultural things to, you know—to do in the church, but they’re looking for a connection, with the people. Sometimes the people just want to come in, [imitating gruff voices] “Give me some food and let me eat. I’ma be back for seconds, and you serve this food, and I’m going to see you next Tuesday.” They’re looking for more than just that. You know, serving the food was just that.

Moore: [00:45:50] But, I kind of like… If I come across a volunteer that’s serving the food, I kind of like to have light conversation. Then, maybe if I see them consistently and things like that, I like to maybe start to invite—open up. Somebody has to make the first move. Normally it’s me, you know. I like to invite people and let them know that the people that you’re serving, you don’t actually know who you’re serving. You’d be surprised who you’re serving. You know, not all of us are all in the same situation, but a lot of us, including yourself, we have a lot in common.

Moore: [00:46:35] So, one of the ladies that I know—that I invite, she… I come to find out that she does some activism work and she wanted to come to some of my events, but it was too short of a notice, and whatnot. So, it’s fun being creative and pulling people’s attention and she wants to read, or wants to know more about things that I do. I’m trying to get her to relax, because I don’t want her chasing me around the soup kitchen, because I see that she’s curious. She wants to—she believes that she has a new friend, in the sense that someone that I can, outside of my culture—that I can talk to and learn things about, and vice versa. Yeah.

Lewis: [00:47:37] So, you’re kind of describing, the volunteers that are coming to serve food, they want to—some of them, anyway, want to have a different or maybe deeper connection

Moore: Sure!

Lewis: with the people they’re serving.

Moore: Yeah!

Lewis: And so maybe they… Just like you described yourself as moving from—or people needing to move from waiting for help from institutions, to moving toward social justice… Maybe these servers that are serving food need to move from just serving food to social justice. And, what are… Is your—the performances that you do, that’s a way to offer them kind of a window to understanding your life?

Moore: [00:48:29] Well, it is, and building friendship. That’s, I think—that’s what I’m looking at more these days, is building friendship, and maybe possibly allies and resources, you know—and maybe a little dialogue. But, there has to be some kind of connection—got to see what people are about. Got to take a chance and open up, and let people know who you are, what you do, and we can sit down and have a civilized conversation with some coffee and some tea. You know, you’re not embarrassed of me if I open my mouth in this light. People like, “Oh my God, where did you get this person from?” But we have to do this.

Moore: [00:49:27] We have to kind of like, make ourselves available to the universe. You can’t you know—nobody’s going to know who you are if you’re walking around mad and not opening your mouth. No one’s going to know how to help. No one’s going to say, “Hey, Marcus! How are you doing today? Can I get you something to eat? You know what, don’t worry about it. We’ll take care of everything. After everybody leaves, we’ll pack your bags with everything you want.” “Thank you, Judy.”

Lewis: [00:50:04] Do you have these conversations with folks who are homeless that you know?

Moore: [Long pause] Not too much… I should say, a rare few. A rare few of ladies—of men and ladies out there that understand where I’m coming from. You know, because they go to these different places to eat, because they’re on a diet, and these different places serve certain types of food, on certain days. So people need to know that the soup kitchens, some of these places, they do serve certain types of food on certain days. You know, so… But I do have these conversations, and those few people that can understand where I’m coming from. Not all, just a few.

Lewis: [00:51:01] Why do you think it’s just a few?

Moore: Because a few… They—you know, a lot of folks are just really caught up in… They’re just concerned about their stuff. You know what I’m saying? Some are still a little resentful. You know what I’m saying? But, they still feel like, why should I open up to this individual? By the end of the day, after I finish eating my food, I’m going right back outside, and do what I do. You know, that’s a lot of their attitudes, some of them.

Moore: [00:51:48] You know, but a few of them, the few people that I keep very close to my circle, have learned how to master self. And when I say learn how to master self, they have learned how to live within themselves, where they’re able to get all their needs met, you know... They’ve learned how to get all their needs met within their realm of places that they go. They  learned how to get away and get rest, so they can have a balance. So when they sit down with other un-domiciled people, the words that come out their mouth is not all profanity. They  learned how to respect themselves, and respect other homeless people who are going through a hard time.

Moore: [00:52:47] Who… They learned how to analyze and master the situation where they can tell you, “No, leave that one alone. That’s Joe. He’s going through some hard times.” Or, “No, I have to tell him to get away from me.” “I don’t want to hear you vent today, because I’m trying to keep my peace of mind.” So, these folks have learned how to get away and get rest in Central Park so they can be balanced.

Lewis: [00:53:22] You know, when you were talking about this kind of smaller number of people who are able to have these conversations, it made me wonder, what role could Picture the Homeless play to help that number of small people grow into a bigger number of people? How can Picture the Homeless support folks—more folks, so they can have those conversations?

Moore: That’s something that I struggle with, too, because these few people know that I am a product of Picture the Homeless, and often with me, I get judged a lot. Like, when I sit down with these people, it’s like, you just can’t say anything to these people, because they’re going to go and research it. They’re going to go and research it. And a lot of times, they think they know it all.

Moore: [00:54:30] Which nobody’s perfect, but they want to hear, what is Picture the Homeless doing about this issue? Why is Picture the Homeless not doing that? And so, I can go back and forth and say, “How come you don’t come to a Picture the Homeless meeting?” But a lot of times, I’m getting judged—Picture the Homeless is getting judged, based on what’s coming out my mouth. Picture the Homeless is getting judged, right there, that moment. And they’re basing—and I know, and I tell them this all the time, say, “You just can’t base Picture the Homeless all on me.”

Moore: [00:55:01] But, you know—they just… You know, these people—they’re very cautious of their time, because they figure, “Okay, I’ve got places to go, too.” And that place might just be in Central Park, to read all these newspapers and go to a library, get some food, come back, and get some rest and listen to some music. But they have an agenda. I ain’t mad at them.

Lewis: [00:55:32] Is there a person that you can think of that you did talk to about Picture the Homeless, that ended up going and found a way for themselves at Picture the Homeless?

Moore: Well, there’s a person out there right now, as we speak. He went to the award dinner that Picture the Homeless had for me some time ago, when I was able to—when I received the Teach One to Reach One award. I call him the street professor, because he keeps me grounded. So, this individual, you met before.

Lewis: I met him, yes.

Moore: [00:56:16] And so, he reminds me of Jean Rice, but in a younger version. He absorbs stuff quick. He’s very swift. He doesn’t like to waste his time. He don’t—our session normally opens up with, “How are you doing today? How was your day?” And then we get into culture, art, and literature. And then we get into other political issues, and then that’s when my lesson starts.

Moore: [00:56:53] So, one of my biggest lessons was, “Okay, you’re traveling. Great. You should know where people are at in these different cities and towns. You shouldn’t just be going to these places and not knowing the population of the people that are in these cities and towns. You must start doing this. You must start making…”

Moore: [00:57:26] So this… So, if you noticed, when we went to California, and we was in Malibu, California, we did a talk on homelessness and race. So, one of my things was, what was the population of the people in this here community? That was one of my lessons. So, we—and this gentleman, we debrief... This is normally how a lot of my evening nights go with this individual.

Lewis: I remember, when we—before we went, you were asking me this, about the population and stuff, and we looked at Wikipedia, I think.

Moore: Yes. [Smiles]

Lewis: And I do remember him. Maybe someday you can take me to sit down with you all and have a conversation.

Moore: [00:58:17] Well, you know what? That can possibly happen. He’s always interested in what you’re doing these days. And so, because I talk about you from time to time. But, I’m trying to get him to understand that there’s a change now, you know what I’m saying? So don’t base everything on the last administration. It’s a different day and time now, you know. So some people, they just so focused, and they never—they don’t come to meetings, but they want to judge you. So, this goes back to what I was saying before in the other paragraph. They want to kind of like, judge you and the organization, but it’s a different thing now, you know. So, that’s not a problem. He would love to see you. Yeah.

Lewis: [00:59:15] He was very happy the night you got your award at that gala.

Moore: Well, that reward was the people’s reward. Because, all those—that reward comes from the people that I’m around because they share everything that I do, as far as culture, art, and literature, and traveling. So, that was a nice thing for the community. Yep. So, everybody in the street, in my network, heard about that. That was positive. Yep.

Lewis: [00:59:55] You had mentioned that the award was the gateway, you used the word “gateway” for you to begin performing.

Moore: Yeah it really was, because once I saw that I had something else that I could fight with, that was like, wow, I can condense this, or I can add this into a play and talk about issues concerning homeless people. And so, it took some time for me to really start to think about it, really.

Moore: [01:00:40] And then, when the documentary was made, and then I got a chance to study the play, on how I was—the theatrical part that I was doing, I said to myself, “Yep. I think I got something I can travel with! Mm-hmm.” And since then—and since then, I’ve gotten a chance to… I can’t say I retired—I thought I was going to be able to retire it, but I got a chance to now say it in a story form. I don’t have to necessarily be all over the stage anymore. I can just stand there, or sit down on a stool, and tell it like a griot.

Lewis: “Do or Die!” the poem?

Moore: [01:01:34] Yeah, just tell it like a griot with background music, you know. So, my street professor tells me, he says, “Now you need to get into more sound effects.” He said, “You need to start telling more stories.” That’s what he said. He said, “Not too many props no more.” I mean, you can still bring the props, but he said, “Get into storytelling and teaching.” He said, “You’re a satirist.” He said, “A satirist teaches the people.” He said, “I don’t want you to just be posting up anything like a big, tall clown. When you post up something, there have to be a message involved.”

Lewis: [01:02:16] That’s so powerful. You had a piece that you did with Ray Ramirez

Moore: Yes.

Lewis: from the Lyric Lab.

Moore: I love that, yeah.

Lewis: Talk about that piece because that did incorporate music.

Moore: Ah… Is that the one with the shopping cart?

Lewis: Yes.

Moore: [01:02:34] So, I’m humbled that you bring that up, because just recently, I realized that someone in the soup kitchen was telling me about his shopping cart. He was telling me how he had some stuff in it, and he was using it, and it wasn’t for the shopping cart. I didn’t fully quite understand his story, but I remember he was saying something with the shopping cart.

Moore: [01:03:02] And that whole concept came about when I realized that, when people are living in the street, the shopping cart—your shopping cart is like your multipurpose tool. It becomes like your best friend. You can’t—it’s hard to just leave it anywhere because you got all your stuff in there. You can make moves with it. It’s very convenient.

Moore: [01:03:28] A lot of times, people won’t mess with it, because the first thing they say, “Oh, that’s somebody’s poor, homeless shopping cart. Leave that shit…” Excuse me, “Leave that stuff alone.” And you don’t really want to look like a creep going in and stealing from… [imitates voice] “Come on, man. Why are you going to steal that from that person? Look at this shopping cart…” You know?

Moore: [01:03:48] And so, the shopping cart is universal. I was in the Bay not too long ago, and, yes, with Mo, our new director… And shopping carts... I said, “Wow, look at all the shopping carts. Look at the people using these shopping carts and being creative with it.” I said, “I love the fact that people was trying to maintain and keep themselves and their things together in these shopping carts as they were asked to vacate the space and whatnot.

Moore: [01:04:21] And the shopping cart is such a universal… That—I think that story is a universal story around the country, because more people have become homeless with fires, with a… Especially in L.A. Now, in shelters, the same people that made fun of other people, _you _might have to go and get your shopping cart, and try to wheel your stuff or your family’s stuff around, and keep it together the best way you can.

Moore: [01:04:56] So, I think, with that particular song—really, I’m describing a man with his shopping cart. It’s really, I think, a great song. And I got that song from the street. So, people in the street gave me that inspiration to do that. Mm-hmmm—really. And so, actually—really, it’s now a play that I’m working on with someone from Theatre of the Oppressed. So, I gave him the inspiration, so he wrote it but... I’ve got other stories too, you know. So, Willie [smiles] has actually grown up. Willie is no longer in the street, but the other shopping carts are hating on him.

Lewis: Uh-oh.

Moore: [01:05:45] Yeah. They say that, “Oh, he’s too good now.” And so, we know that with the culture and stuff like that, sometimes—we call it barrel in the bucket—crabs in a bucket…

Lewis: Crabs in a barrel? [Smiles]

Moore: [01:05:56] Yeah. So when one starts doing good… So, Willie started doing good, so Willie is no longer being tied up in the bike rack with the rest of the bikes and other stuff that’s tied up. Willie is now going to senior centers. He’s now being loved, you know? He’s… Willie took a lot of punishment when he was in the street. He can’t take a lot of pressure when you put a lot of stuff in him, but he’s all right now. [Laughs]

Lewis: [01:06:26] You know, you’re—remember when [smiles] we watched the video _King of Cans, _

Moore: Yes.

Lewis: about Eugene Gadsden? His shopping cart, he referred to as his girlfriend, remember?

Moore: Ohhhhhhh!

Lewis: Her name was Betsy.

Moore: I never knew that!

Lewis: Because he slept in the street with her, and so he said, “She’s kind of like my girlfriend.” And, I’m going to send you the link to that video so you can see it.

Moore: Oh, wow!

Lewis: But he used to call his shopping cart “Betsy.”

Moore: [01:06:54] Wow. It’s amazing. I never knew that! Just when you think you came up with something hot and clever, there’s always someone before you. Wow, Betsy.

Lewis: Well, that means you both came up with something hot and clever.

Moore: Yeah.

Lewis: But it really speaks to how important having a shopping cart is when you don’t have a home to keep your stuff, you know?

Moore: [01:07:23] Yeah. So, I don’t… I still travel with mine. I have mine today because I needed water for my homestead and it’s very productive, because it’s a multipurpose tool that people in urban, I would say people that’s living in urban communities, and that’s really busy being creative, really need it, because sometimes when you’re an artist, a shopping cart is very convenient.

Moore: [01:07:55] So, just because you see a person with a shopping cart, it’s not some person that’s always picking up cans. No. There’s a lot of people that travel with their musical instruments, you know. I see a lot of stuff out there. So, when people take their stuff out, aw man, do they take out… And the stuff that be in them shopping carts, it’s unbelievable.

Moore: [01:08:16] But, however, we have people who can’t really work, and so sometimes people, and some of the folks are undocumented... And so, sometimes the shopping cart is a good front, in a way—in the sense of, “If I go and buy some fruits and vegetables—now if I go and buy some cantaloupe, some fruits, let’s just say, and sell it out of the shopping cart, I’m not putting up no stands. I put a little sign on the shopping cart, “two for a dollar.” Out of the shopping cart! What are they going to say? It’s my shopping cart!

Moore: [01:08:55] So, the shopping cart has not only become a source of refuge or storage—it’s become a place—it creates income for people. It creates—it becomes environmentally helpful, because sometimes when your shopping cart is locked up, people feel bad. They don’t want to just litter. They use your shopping cart as a garbage disposal. So, it’s very universal around the coast, the east, the north, and the west. It’s not a New York thing. It’s a universal thing.

Lewis: [01:09:39] One of the things that I really love about you is how you—you reimagine things that many people would say are negative, and you see the positive elements in them, and then you kind of like reintegrate it. So, you talk about shopping carts as a multipurpose tool. Whereas someone else might look at a shopping cart, like, “Oh, look at that thing. It’s full of garbage.” And for you, not only is it a way you think, it’s a way that you use things in positive ways. And I think that is really inspiring. And what is it about you that has made you such a positive, hopeful person? You know how when people say, “How you doing, Marcus?”

Moore: Yes.

Lewis: You always say, “I’m positive”? [Laughs]

Moore: [01:10:35] I—you know… Two things. Think and Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill. And I’ve been able to have good men and women around me. Yeah. Reading a lot and having good men and women around me that have really taken an interest in me and pointed me in the right direction. That’s from women who has been able to lead the sales group, because I had a strong woman, years ago... She was like the van master. You know, we’d drive to these locations around the country, I mean, around the city, and she would go and show us how it was done. She would knock on the door; she would demonstrate it to… So, we’d all be in the van, looking, [laughter] dressed up in suits and stuff like that, and skirts and blouses… She’ll go and demonstrate…

Moore: [01:11:40] Sometimes she use to get… You know, sometimes she’ll get… Every now and then, she’ll get, “No! I don’t need it!” You know, in the door. But a lot of times, she would demonstrate it, she would show us, she would get in. And she was so cocky about her skills and her profession; she would get in and introduce the person who’s going to do the demonstration to the person that she got in… It was really interesting.

Moore: [01:12:09] But overall, just good men and women that really had a strong interest, and mastering in what they’re doing, and didn’t mind teaching it to others, and helping them to grow as a person, and on top of that, make a couple of dollars for themselves and their family. I thought that was neat.

Lewis: [01:12:37] You’ve mentioned not only teachers a couple times, but also the ability to be a learner.

Moore: [01:12:45] Yes. That’s very important. A lot of us is not teachable, because we don’t want to learn. We don’t want to listen. We are not teachable, because we do not want to listen, because we think we know it all. Got to be humble, and listen, and let somebody teach you. Let somebody teach you! They want to teach you something. It might lead to a good relationship. Let them teach you. It doesn’t matter if they’re a boy, a girl, a man, or a woman. Let them teach you something. Yeah. Stop acting like you know it all. Even if you do know, let them teach you.

Lewis: [01:13:25] How do we reach people that aren’t teachable and support them to become teachable?

Moore: Maybe we can have a listening class, or session. Learn how to listen first. Maybe that can be helpful. I think good leaders become not only good followers, but good listeners at the same time! People don’t want to—people don’t want to… They want everything like, bam. They don’t want to struggle for it. They just want [claps]. Just bam, this just happened. [Smiles] Like, I’ll see you at the winning line once we win, you know, we win. Nobody wants to do preparations. Nobody wants to do—I don’t know, that’s a good one. That’s a really good one.

Lewis: [01:14:27] If you could tell somebody… What’s the fun stuff, what’s the beautiful stuff about struggle? Because people maybe don’t want to because it, I mean, who knows why. But what is it about the struggle that’s beautiful?

Moore: I think the lessons that being learned while you’re struggling are able to enrich your spirit. How you see yourself maneuvering and just getting yourself through whatever you’re getting through. I think that’s a beautiful thing. You know, there are so many phrases, “Without no struggle, there’s no progress.” But you can ask… But there’s a lot of things to be learned as you continue to—when you’re struggling, I think.

Moore: [01:15:20] You know, it’s just not like, just struggle and be oppressed at the same time. No, you’re struggling, but you can actually see yourself learning some things, some things you might not want to do that, next time. You might want to come a different way. But you wouldn’t know these things if you wasn’t constantly progressing and learning, and at the same time and enduring until the end, with the struggle, you know. So, it’s interesting, I think.

Lewis: [01:15:53] Do you have a memory or a story about how you engaged in struggle, saw yourself in a new way, or just simply had fun with it?

Moore: [01:16:08] I think… When I was learning how to be, I was coming from the stages of being a boy to a man. I was really struggling with how to make the transition from… Back to my homeland, you know. I lived—I was raised in New Jersey, but I’m from New York. And, just the stuff that I endured, moving back to New York, and it was just really… I was like—New York, to me, was like a big adventure. I learned that I can get more honey... I learned I can get more bees with honey, than sugar. I learned that quick.

Lewis: [Laughs] My mom used to say that.

Moore: [01:17:13] Yeah. I learned that quick. And then, once I thought I mastered it, it was really interesting to see, “Yo! Don’t act like this; you’ve got to act like this. Don’t say this; say this, like this.” You know? So, I would have to say just moving from a boy stage to a man, and not having the security blanket of my mom and my sisters around me, because everybody’s lives have changed, including mine. I’m not no little boy. I’m not no teenager. I’m a grown man. When do I start thinking like a man, you know? So, that was an interesting thing for me to experience some things as a boy growing into manhood. So, that’s really interesting to me. Some of it was a really hard… It was really uncomfortable, you know.

Moore: [01:18:31] I’ll never forget… I was living in Teaneck, New Jersey, and the lady said, “You’re going to have to get out of here, because me and my husband, we want the house back. But you know what, though? You are moving back to New York.” She said, “I think moving to New York will be good for you.” This lady, she was very outspoken. She said, “It will make you stronger.” I was like… You know, she was—her husband at the time was an artist. But, she reminds me of someone that I know, but that’s another story, though.

Moore: [01:19:08] But, I’ll never forget that experience. I couldn’t wait! I couldn’t wait for my uncle to come and get me and move all my stuff out of there. I couldn’t wait! These are the stuff… This was something that I struggled with, but I appreciate today, because I can sit back and talk about it and I learned some things, and I can say that God got me through it, you know? So I try to be… I’m not perfect, but I try to be—have some kind of form of spirituality here.

Lewis: [01:19:44] You know, when we talk about individual struggle and collective struggle, some of the ways that—I anyway, think about collective struggle is kind of what we do when we’re in a group like Picture the Homeless. And are there any examples that you want to share of collective struggle at Picture the Homeless, where you felt like you participated in something that made you stronger or changed you?

Moore: [01:20:27] Hmmmmm. [Long pause] Yeah, I… [coughs and says “Now I got the coughs again] So, now I have to mention a member by the name of Genghis, you know. Genghis and I struggle a lot, you know, because we both believe in homesteading. And so, it was—he kind of pushed me to step out on faith and take the chance and the risk, you know. And we thought—through another source that we had, another location waiting for us, but it didn’t work out that way. And so, I had to try to learn how to live with this guy.

Moore: [01:21:31] Yeah, we’re from the same organization, but I had to try to… You know, the age difference was different, too, because he could be like my uncle-father, you know. And he’s a small guy. I’m this big, tall guy. And some nights dealing with him, I just want to punch on him. But I knew that I couldn’t do that, because I would feel bad—and who does that?

Moore: [01:22:04] And so, I struggled—our relationship struggled, but we got better at it. Because we was learning how to deal with each other in the struggle, because at Picture the Homeless, the gates closed down at a certain time

Lewis: Mm-Hmmmm.

Moore: and so you kind of have to pick and choose teams. Who’s going with who, who’s chilling with who, who’s chilling with who, or who’s going or riding solo, or going to do their own thing.

Moore: [01:22:40] So, Genghis and I, we was a—I don’t know how to say this. We was like partners to the degree where we were looking out for each other at night. At that time, I still had a job. I still had somewhere to go to kill a good portion of the time. And… But once I got off, it was really on. He would say some things, and I was like, “No, I can’t let you get away with that.” I’ll come back and I’ll say my thing, you know. And that… He’ll sit over there, then I’ll sit over there… Then he’ll fall asleep—couldn’t leave him sleeping like that. So I had to wake him up and tell him, “Maybe move it over this way.”

Moore: [01:23:29] And before you know it, it was time to go back to Picture the Homeless and figure out how we’re going to get this work done. So, I would say that Genghis was a person who—we got better throughout our struggles at Picture the Homeless. Yeah.

Lewis: [01:23:51] What kind of places did you guys go to at night?

Moore: We would normally go to 35th and Broadway. We would sit there for a little while, and

Lewis: Outside?

Moore: Outside. Sometimes we would go to Central Park. Was it Central Park? No, Central Park East, and—you know, sometimes we would be there as well. And then we’ll play the platform, the trains, you know... That’s what we would do. So, we would do a lot of stuff just to break up the monotony of the evening and the night.

Moore: [01:24:30] Like I said before, I always had a job, so it wasn’t too bad for me. It’s, I think, after I left him, around maybe three or four o’clock in the afternoon, because you do security work, you work these four to twelves and stuff like that. And so, yeah—we would do trains, parks, public places, open spaces, yeah. Yep... Walk a lot… Yeah. And at that time, we stayed mad at each other for some mysterious reason, but we have moments where we’d laugh and forget about all that. Yeah.

Lewis: [01:25:15] And you all are still in touch by phone, I know.

Moore: Yep, that’s right. I still talk to him. He sounds like he’s doing much better. You know, sometimes he wants to bring up stuff that we did years ago. When we was just trying to survive and maintain in the street, but sometimes you don’t always want to hear that, all the time. You want to hear and talk about what we’re doing now—to move forward now, and how we can still be involved and decrease these numbers of people who are just becoming homeless or still homeless, you know.

Moore: [01:25:59] He’s telling me about the things that he’s doing, where he’s at now, how he’s slowly trying to get back involved, and I’m proud and I’m happy that he’s doing that. But I know that things—it takes a process, so I don’t expect for him to have the same eager energy that he used to have when he was… So, and then he’s got his family out there. So, I’m glad to see that he’s doing much better now. Yep.

Moore: [01:26:29] I hope, one of these days, I can go and visit him. Because I… Genghis uses me as an eye for—“Yo, what’s happening with the guys? What’s going on now with Picture the Homeless? Um, um, you know, keep me involved.” He wants to stay involved. He reads the websites and stuff like that. So, I’m like his main man for what’s happening out here still, you know?

Lewis: [01:27:00] I know Sam had Genghis—Genghis called Sam’s phone, and Genghis was able to hear the whole Longest Night

Moore: Oh, wow

Lewis: service the other night.

Moore: that’s nice.

Lewis: [01:27:11] Yeah, it was really nice. Do you think that there—or are there homeless folks that you know that maybe don’t directly come around to Picture the Homeless, but they keep up with what’s happening?

Moore: So, I truly think that there are a lot of folks who are interested, still, in what Picture the Homeless do. So, I have a person, a member, by the name of Michael Crea. Michael Crea, he just connects me [smiles] to everything that he do, right. So, I know that he still looks in on Picture the Homeless because I’m still heavily involved.

Moore: [01:28:05] And so, it’s kind of hard to not look through my stuff and not see some kind of affiliation, or see something new that we’re working on, or something current that we’re working on. It’s always… You’re bound to see something with me and Picture the Homeless, and for sure we do have members, who do check in—might not come, but they do check in. And then there are other members who—I feel that they see me in the soup kitchens, and—Ramo—Ramos?—Ray—he’s a nice guy.

Lewis: That rides the bike?

Moore: No, Ramon.

Lewis: Oh, Ramon!

Moore: [01:28:52] Ramon, yes. Ramon—when he sees me in the soup kitchens, he gets some paper, and he writes me little notes, you know. See, you have to be patient with people. You can’t be ready to punch their lights out. That’s his thing, with me. He writes me notes. He gives it to me. And it’d be very interesting! Then sometimes he wants to treat me to McDonald’s... And so, and he wants to know what’s going on with Picture the Homeless and stuff like that. And every now and then, he do comes! He do comes.

Moore: [01:29:33] But… You know—so folks are two things. Now, this is a new thing. I’m not too sure I should mention the new thing, you know… But, there are people, old members, that do check—I think, for the website, but not necessarily always willing to come in anymore. But, I think the new thing—maybe we can say the new thing offline, because it might not sound good. [Smiles]

Lewis: It’s okay. We can delete it.

Moore: [01:30:13] Okay, so the new thing is, is that people are mad and frustrated, because they don’t know when the civil rights meetings are. And, it frustrates them, because they want to discuss things, but they don’t know when the civil rights meetings are. And so, a lot of—and I’m still out there, in the eatery places, in the street, with people. When they see me, they go in. And sometimes—sometimes I don’t always have the accurate answer, because sometimes I’m a little kind of like not sure myself, so... I know I got to get better with that, but sometimes I feel their pain!

Lewis: [01:31:13] One of the things that I was talking with Anthony about when I was down in Baltimore, was this question about meeting times. And Anthony, to bring him in this conversation a little bit, was talking about how we had realized that we had to be very consistent with the meeting times and places and day, so that people didn’t have to try to figure out when. That they always knew it was going to be on this day, at this time. That that was a

Moore; Yep.

Lewis: That that was a tool, in a way, because people have to move around so much to get a meal here

Moore: No doubt.

Lewis: or go to an appointment there. Do you think that’s important?

Moore: [01:32:01] I’m starting to analyze and I’m starting to really think about how, you know—if I, you know—how I be feeling sometimes, and then I can imagine them. So, I do think that if it was some kind of stable time, then people… It was always a blessing to see people you haven’t seen in a while just come to the meetings, because they knew that the meetings was at that time.

Moore: [01:33:27] So, I’m not trying to repeat what you just said. All I’m just saying is that some kind of… That doesn’t work with some people, “Give me your email and I’ll email you.” You know what I’m saying? It’s not working, you know, with a lot of people still. And maybe the next time we talk and have some kind of discussion in the future, I can bring that up. But, people are really struggling with time.

Lewis: [01:33:10] One of the reasons that we’re doing this project is to look at lessons that we have learned ourselves of what works in terms of organizing homeless folks, and what might not work. And not even that everybody is the same, right? So things can work with some people and not others. But, what are some lessons?

Lewis: [01:33:34] You know—Willie Baptist, I think—I know he does an amazing job of, as a teacher, sharing lessons from his organizing experience, and _we _at Picture the Homeless have a lot.

Moore: Yes.

Lewis: So, I think it’s a good thing to look at what works and what doesn’t work, not in a—to be critical, but to say, we did these things well, and this other way isn’t working. So, I don’t think we should hold back if it’s in the spirit of being constructive.

Moore: Okay!
 
Lewis: [01:34:17] And also, you and I have been to Denver, for example. There’s are a lot of people in Denver that were talking about organizing homeless folks. And so, if somebody were to say to you, “Marcus, what’s important to keep in mind when you’re organizing homeless folks?” What kinds of things would you say?

Moore: [01:34:41] Wow. [Long pause] That’s… I would probably say you’re going to have to be straight up with people. You’re going to have to let them express themselves the way they going to need to express themselves. Not everybody is using fifty-dollar words. You know what I’m saying?

Moore: [01:35:07] Some people have different experiences. But you have to let them express themselves, I think—so they can feel comfortable. You can’t be ready to shut them down every five minutes. You have to make them feel that what they’re saying and what they went through is very valuable to why we are all here. And really, that could be the beginning of making them feel comfortable in that home, making them feel that they have some place where they can possibly vent _and get something done. _
_ _
Lewis: Okay.

Moore:_ _That’s what I would run with.

Moore: [01:35:55] Because if you—I think if folks have a place where they can go and talk about what’s been bothering them, how the police have been affecting them, then they just might be willing to sit down... They might be cursing, but that pen, and that paper is moving at the same time… People [unclear word] the discussions, people are participating. Okay, people might not smell the best, but people are participating, they working it out! So, it’s all good [smiles] yeah. I think that’s a good thing. That’s what, “Now, that’s positive.” [Laughter]

Lewis: [01:36:36] Well, I know you’ve had a bad cough lately. And, how are you feeling?

Moore: I’m feeling like I can go for another tea before I—we eventually bring this to a halt.

Lewis: Okay, well I would love to make you some more tea.

Moore: Yes.

Lewis: I would ask you if you have any other reflections before we bring it to a halt.

Moore: [01:37:07] I do have some reflections. I do. [Pauses] I’m just thinking… You know, I get these emails a lot, and I’m wondering what does the future look like for members now, and long-going members like myself, at Picture the Homeless? I’m wondering, will we be doing any more… Will we reconnect, I’m thinking, with some of our ally groups?

Moore: [01:37:43] You know, we went to this—Picture the Homeless was in this group, this meeting, I’m not too sure to call it group, meeting, conference… Yeah, conference, a little time ago. And somebody said to me, “Oh, we need to come up.” A member—actually, it was an old member. He saw me. He was like, “We need to come up with a homeless bill of rights.” And, I said to him, “Picture the Homeless have allies that are working on that.”

Moore: [01:38:17] But because, you know—he don’t come to the meetings, because, simply, he don’t even know when the meetings are, I’m not saying he don’t want to come, because he’s always asking me when are the meetings... Because, the poor soul was used to them always being on Tuesday.

Moore: [01:38:35] But anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is that I wonder what the future holds for people doing this work, as far as Picture the Homeless members and you know… Does that—are we… And I’m wondering, because we built some relationships with people, other groups, from around the country, and I’m wondering, what would that look like again? You know, are we… I don’t know. Does it sound like I’m talking in riddles?

Lewis: [01:39:24] No. You mean the civil rights groups that we met?

Moore: Yes. And you know, because… See, the people in the street coming to me with these issues. I’m not Jean Rice! I’m definitely not Jean Rice, you know. I understand that. You see me around town a lot, in the eating spots and in the streets, but you know—I’m just wondering to myself, you know—what I can do more of… Because I’m seeing that just passing out literature is not enough anymore. Because, Nikita—somebody—Nikita, gave me some literature to pass out. I’m going to stop right there, because I feel like I’m just talking in riddles, right here. So I’m just going to leave it at that, so yeah.

Lewis: All right, Marcus. Well, thank you, and let’s have some tea.

Moore: Yes, please. [Smiles]

[END OF INTERVIEW]