Lynn Roberts

Lewis: [00:00:01] So, good afternoon. It is January 6, 2023—an auspicious day [laughter]
 
Roberts: Indeed.
 
Lewis: and we're going to make it a wonderful day.
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: And I am Lynn Lewis, interviewing Lynn Roberts for the Picture the Homeless oral history project. Hi Lynn, how are you?
 
Roberts: I am well. So good to be with you, Lynn. Even if virtually. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [Smiles] Yeah, I wish we were not in Zoom land, but I'm happy we can use this tool to get this done.
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: [00:00:41] I appreciate your time very much. So, as a longtime ally and friend and comrade and sister of Picture the Homeless, we want to get to know you better, as a person. And so could you share a little bit about where you're from?
 
Roberts: Sure. Sure. I'm just going to close my door here. I have creaky stairs and other household members are going up and down at the moment. I grew up in a little town called Bethlehem in Pennsylvania—not Israel. And I think of that as where I was born and spent—you know, I guess what are considered formative years. I was there till I was seventeen, so all of my childhood was—was spent there. A steel town that is no longer a steel town—but was when I lived there with my parents, my siblings. And very… I don't know that I… To say it's where I'm from—I don't know that I often felt that I belonged there. My parents came from, you know—the southern United States, both Carolinas. And it just happened to be where my father took a pastorate so that's why we settled there.
 
Roberts: [00:02:10] And, it was a little bit hostile to people of color and particularly, you know—African Americans, during most of my childhood and youth… With glimmers of, you know— welcome. But, it was a place I looked forward to leaving.
 
Lewis: Mmmm. Do you have a story about the hostility, or a lack of welcoming
 
Roberts: Yeah. Yeah…Sure… And, several...
 
Lewis: that you like—that you kind of have in your mind?
 
Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: Can you talk about that?
 
Roberts:** **Sure. And several… And I guess to just be more clear, one thing about Bethlehem—because it prided itself in being—you know, the Christmas City and it was actually founded through this very Christmas-like story of a Moravian settled—it was settled by Count Von Zinzendorf who came there in the cold winter night and… You know, basically repeated the Christmas story of feeling—you know, it was a refuge of sorts. And because of my family moving there in the ‘50s, late ‘50s—most of my… I'm one of four children, so my older brothers and sisters came before me. My oldest brother was born in Philadelphia. But, you know—the rest of us were born in Bethlehem. So, my older sister and brother were born in '57 and '58. I was born in '61. And we were first living in my father's [church] parsonage on the south side of town.
 
Roberts: [00:04:05] And, there was a real racial divide there, so most of the people who lived on the south side of town and around the steel mill itself were African American, Latina—Latino rather, or Latinx maybe people would say today, and also Eastern European or European immigrants—Western European immigrants. But, primarily lower income, [working class] people. And—and that brought people together because people kind of had some shared lived experience.
 
Roberts: [00:04:45] But my parents eventually had a home built on the other side of town, the north side of town, where we were the only family of color—the only Black family, specifically. Our parents built a home that was a little larger than—you know, most of the homes in the immediate neighborhood. And, you know, my brother's got beaten up… They threw rotten eggs at our house as we were moving in. I was the—for many years, the only Black child and only child of color in my entire elementary school. So, k through six—to be the only, was very lonely. And you know, I was asked questions even as early as kindergarten. They didn't know what to make of me. So, the first child who sat next to me with my legs outstretched on the gym floor and noticing that my skin was a little browner, assumed I was an Indian, as in a Native American, because there was nothing in their world that they had been exposed to that would suggest that someone would look like I did. And I hadn't had any interactions up to that point, of that nature. I had lovely teachers and then I had my third grade teacher, who I think was the first time I experienced what I thought was discrimination from an authority figure. And then I had wonderful teachers who were—you know, I guess kind of coming up during the—the era of, you know—flower children and hippies who also embraced me and gave me ideas—critical thinking at a critical age, that let me know about things like social justice. [Smiles] You know, so I'm grateful for that.
 
Roberts: [00:06:35] You know that I got exposed to good education on the one hand, and then when I still sat in classrooms where—if they shared anything about people of African descent, it was very stigmatizing, degrading even... If we were talking about the continent of Africa, all my classmates turned in my direction as if I was the classroom expert or else to make me feel less than, in an instant. So, there are all those experiences and at the same time, my parents were very involved in the community and were, civil rights activists in their own right. So, I was being exposed to one thing at home and then very different things in the school system. So, by the time I got to high school, I was almost turned off by being in any classroom because I knew there was a lot of—you know, miseducation going on or inadequate education about the full nature of things… Of the world, of life and certainly the experiences of their students of color. In a nutshell. [Laughs] Kind of just very...
 
Roberts: [00:07:54] And then there were dynamics about how people were treated. You know, my father got very involved around the discriminatory hiring practices at the steel mill. My mother was the first Black teacher in the school district there and... There had been others before her who hadn't been hired. But for some reason, by 1963, '64, the school district decided that was the time to get with the times and she was hired. But she was one of very few, for a very long time and I, again going through elementary schools as the only Black, the middle schools were, or what were called junior high schools at that time, we had we had two of them—were much more diverse because it drew from, you know, different neighborhoods throughout the town and... But the children I had grown up with in elementary school—who were—you know, who were all white and whose homes I had gone to for their birthday parties and their slumber parties. And then all of a sudden I'm coming...
 
Roberts: [00:09:09] I was the second Black girl to become a cheerleader in junior high school and we were coming home from a [basketball] game on the bus and that was going to be the—you know… The eve of the first junior high dance, which for me was exciting. It was a big deal. And I overheard this one child—who I had been one of her close friends and I adored her mother. My mom worked and wasn't always available. And I went to, you know—my classmates home and her mom was the one who was home and able to… You know, just be kind of that image of a mom that maybe the television depicted. And, I overheard her say on the bus that day that her parents weren't going to allow her to go to the to the dance because there would be all those Black and Puerto Rican kids there. And I was like, “What!?” You know, this woman who I worship would say that to her daughter and it made me question who they were and who I was in relation to them.
 
Roberts: [00:10:20] And then I made this kind of… I felt like I had to make this choice of who my friends were. And that was when I first really had a sense of, you know... Racial divide—socially, in a way that I needed to make a choice. And so from then on, I just kind of disengaged from—you know, those who I'd spent most of my early childhood with. I've since reconnected with some of them in Facebook. And it's—it's been an interesting journey because, you know, their memories of our childhood and youth are different than mine, you know? But my—you know, my close girlfriends who I've… You know, the relationships I formed in junior high up through high school. You know, became primarily other students of color. That's who I would date even though I went to my junior high eighth grade dance with a—with one of my closest intellectual [smiles] peers. Although at that grade level, we weren't there as a dating couple, but we went as friends. And… Because we were both attracted to other people who weren't paying us much attention. [Laughs] And so I ended up going with this young man, Peter, who I thought was one of the most brilliant classmates of mine, and maybe he thought the same of me.
 
Roberts: [00:11:54] And we, again went as friends… And I reconnected with him, you know—since then. He was being interviewed by Amy Goodman on Democracy Now! one morning and here she announces she's interviewing this professor at Duke University. And no one could have had his same name, you know. And I said, “Oh, that's got to be him.” So, I looked him up at Duke and we got connected. And then, we since saw each other at a high school reunion. And he became a political scientist, he's a professor of political science there and actually represented some of the most conservative presidents [laughs] in his analysis. So, it was interesting. He was really smart, but our politics diverged over time. So it was really… It was really kind of interesting.
 
Roberts: [00:12:52] But again, my… You know, I think I got my—certainly my social justice awareness from my parents—like a legacy, if you will, and not… And they from theirs. You know, my grandparents, both my grandfathers were ministers in the AME Zion Church, which was the church of Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass, and always had a—you know, a strong social justice lens. And my grandfather on my father's side was close friends with Paul Robeson. So there was a sense that our family was also, or could be, under surveillance. [Smiles] And when my father got involved with the War on Poverty in Bethlehem and the entire Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania... He took on things that were a little dangerous, so... So, all that to say, growing up in this town that you know... Depicts itself as idyllic in many ways to me was, was, was—that wasn't the whole story. And also it has the idyllic elements, you know—and yet, a lot more troubling things, too.
 
Lewis: [00:14:18] Well thank you so much for sharing all those roots. I think of—that really inform who you are. Thank you, Lynn. I appreciate that. And, you know—it's so… You know, we are at almost the same age. And when I did some of these other interviews and people just talked about the kind of daily ways that racism—or other types of injustice, showed up in their lives. Like, “Oh, it wasn't that bad. But yeah, people threw rocks at me.” Or you know—or, “It was better than that other place but, I still was called the N-word…” You know, that, that the way that injustice
 
Roberts: Yeah, Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:15:10] appears and, and just constant moments,
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: I think, is so revealing and important to share. Important to know. So you mentioned your siblings, and so do you want to bring them into the story a little bit?
 
Roberts: [00:15:33] Sure. Sure. So, as I said, I was the youngest of four. My oldest brother, Michael, is about eight years older than me. If I do the math right… [Laughs] I sometimes have to stop and think. He was born in '54, and he was an artist, a creative. He's the one who taught me how to read before I ever went to school. And our parents would separate us because my two other siblings fell in the middle. But they were like, you know—just like fourteen months apart in age. [Laughs] It's like my mother was pregnant as she went for one of her post-natal visits with my sister, after having my brother. And so our parents… You know how sometimes children get sent away to relatives—you know, during the summer months or whenever the parents need a break? So they would pair us up. So, they'd send me with the oldest because he could kind of take care of me and look out for me, and we went to my paternal grandparents in Philadelphia. But my middle siblings, because they were closer in age and closer in age to my mother's sister's children, they went to New Jersey. So, it's how I think I bonded, you know, more closely with my brother, my oldest brother, than perhaps, you know—my same gender sibling, my sister, or with my other brother.
 
Roberts: [00:17:10] And we… Yeah, I think we were all pretty close. But because of some of the differences in our ages there were periods where… You know, I'm three years younger than my sister so by the time I was of a certain age in elementary she was already in junior high and by the time I was finishing up junior high she was well advanced in high school. But you know, they each… I don't think they got as caught up in some of the things that I followed with my parents, both on the kind of their activist selves or following some of the more painful aspects of their marriage. So, I was just a very, I think, sensitive child. So, my parents had a very stormy marriage that even became violent at times. And I was the child who would stay awake and hold vigil at their bedroom door to make sure they didn't harm each other—you know, any more than they already were. And whereas, my older siblings would kind of tune it out, shut the door, go to sleep, that kind of thing.
 
Roberts: [00:18:25] And so it made me really also close to my parents in that—I think in each of their respective parts that they played in the, you know, I guess—dysfunctional marriage was that I became their confidant and got exposed to things I don't know that I would have otherwise—or needed to know at a young age. But it made me a bit of a—you know, kind of a little wiser beyond my years. Not wiser, maybe—[smiles] but certainly exposed. I wasn't protected in that sense, you know. And when they divorced I was the last child still living at home. And I had the choice to go live with my mother or stay with my father. I actually chose to stay with my father because my mother moved to Washington, D.C.
 
Roberts: [00:19:17] And in doing so, I became almost the de facto other head of household. So, I went through my high school years managing a household, you know—grocery shopping, cooking meals, managing—you know, checkbooks. Sometimes my father had health issues and he went into the hospital, so I would end up, you know, paying the bills, making sure they got paid and things like that. But it also meant I had a lot of freedom. I had access to a vehicle. I had—you know, I could act like an adult when I wasn't quite one. I had a job working full-time—or not full-time but working full shifts every Saturday and Sunday in a nursing home as a nurse’s aide—a seven to three shift. But I still was a teenager who wanted to come home and go out dancing. And my father's job at the time—he directed a center in Allentown, which is adjacent to Bethlehem. And this center, which was called the—originally called the Negro Cultural Center, he had it renamed the Afro-American Cultural Center. That was in the seventies. And he… They held—they hosted a dance every Friday and Saturday night with a DJ from Philadelphia, from the WDAS [radio station], who came. And these dances were where we all hung out. And the good thing is, since my dad ran the center, I always had a ride home and my dad knew where I was, and... But, it's also where I met my oldest daughter's father... And, you know, I had that kind of mix of things going on.
 
Roberts: [00:20:59] I—like I said, I was tuned out from school, so I was no longer valuing the education I was receiving, but I was still making good grades and not participating in things as much in the school environment. But because the center existed and I could spend time, you know, socially with the Black and Brown youth… I—you know, that was what was really important. My sister at that time was in college but chose to live on campus. She went to Lehigh. She was actually the first African American student from Bethlehem to go to Lehigh. And that was in I guess she started in ‘76—not the first African American student, but the first one to come from Bethlehem and go there. Again, I tell people, you know, sometimes coming from a family of firsts, but wishing we weren't the first… Because there shouldn't be a first. Like, if we're still counting first in anything, it's really like… You know, even to this day, “the first” like why are we celebrating that? [Laughs] You know, we should be asking, "Why is this person the first—to do this, that or the other?" And. And with all that—you know, what that entails.
 
Roberts: [00:22:23] I think the only brother I didn't talk of—sibling I didn't talk about, was my brother Gary. Who was, you know—not very engaged in in school. Kind of an average student and then, you know, went to Howard, and found his niche to study film. And he worked for Time magazine for many, many years until they kind of, you know, screwed over him. And he became bitter about that. And my brother Michael, I will say also as talented an artist as he was—was also grappling with his sexual identity during a time when, you know—it wasn't and probably and certainly still isn't, always safe to be gay.
 
Roberts: [00:23:18] And he struggled with… It’s hard to say. This gets really complicated for me. He grappled with mental health issues. But I—it's hard for me to separate that from what he experienced as a Black gay male at a time when he wasn't accepted. So, I don't know if the mental health system didn't create mental health issues for him. My parents also didn't know how to respond to some of the things he was wanting to talk about, and he and I were the truth tellers in the family. So, there is a period of time in the seventies when people went to sessions where they talked about things —he went to something that was called “Confront”. And basically these were—what would you call them? I wouldn't call them support groups, but they were opportunities where a lot of young people were encouraged to come and talk about what they were feeling in these public spaces. The women's movement had them too, right? You know, we had spaces for women to come together. And my brother you know, went to some of these sessions.
 
Roberts: [00:24:32] Now mind you, my mother was a public school teacher. So, as it turned out, sometimes the students he was in these sessions with were my mother's students, and some of them didn't keep confidentiality. So they'd go into my mother's classroom and say, "Well, Michael told us this about, you know, what's kind of going on at home." And things or another. And I think, you know—and our parents being, you know—upset, embarrassed, what have you, about that… Decided Michael was the problem.
 
Roberts: [00:25:04] And he was also… You know, and he could have had some real underlying mental health conditions, I'm not diminishing that. But mind you, I was so much younger than him. It was hard for me at that age to understand some of what he was going through other than he was my older brother and I loved him dearly and he treated me just fine. But he brought his first, you know—partner home, someone he had a crush on and who had a crush on him. Young man from—you know, from New York…. Because my brother would run away to New York to, you know—experiment and explore his sexuality.
 
Roberts: [00:25:43] But he also did it during a time of—you know, danger and you know… The bathhouses and places that weren't that safe for him. And he was one of the early people to get exposed to HIV and before his 36th birthday, he was gone. But on his way to that, he was, you know—subjected to shock treatments when he was hospitalized as a young person. So that was another area where, you know—his experiences really awakened me to when HIV, you know, was an epidemic because he was one of the first casualties. It was something I was aware of from the beginning. And it was how—it was what I cut my teeth on when I came to New York in the early eighties, or the late eighties actually.
 
Roberts: [00:26:41] But those—I think those are my siblings… My sister—became a government employee for many years. She's now retired, and she got her degree at Lehigh and then went and got an MBA and worked for the government, for large agencies… For the Navy for most of her career and then FEMA and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission all in kind of organizational development ways. But it was interesting, because my mother used to say she never knew who to vote for because my sister tended to be in government positions that were very tied to—you know, Republicans. [Smiles] And I was always in jobs that were more tied to—to the other spectrum. And she figured, depending on who she voted for, somehow one of us would be out of a job. [Laughs] It's kind of—kind of an inside family joke. But my sister was also doing inside work that was very, I think, progressive and meaningful around—you know, discrimination, EEOC kind of stuff from inside the government. Because our parents influenced us.
 
Lewis: [00:28:00] So you mentioned when you—you came to New York. Could you take us through that? What brought you to New York…
 
Roberts: Sure, sure.
 
Lewis: And where did you live and what were you doing?
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: How old you were?
 
Roberts: [00:28:12] Yeah. I came in '88, and I guess I would say because of marriage. [Laughs] I originally… You know, from Bethlehem, I went to D.C. to live with my mom at eighteen or seventeen—while pregnant and then went to Howard to finish my bachelor's there, with my daughter. And then I went to Cornell right after Howard up in Ithaca, New York. And that's where I met my husband, who was from Binghamton, and we were both in the School of Human Ecology. He was getting his master's in health care administration. And I went to get a masters and stayed to get a Ph.D. instead. And so he finished before I did and had moved down to New York and was living in Jackson Heights. We weren't married when he first moved down there. We got married as I was finishing up all of my coursework and had done all my research for my dissertation. And so we got married in '88. And so I moved to New York that fall with my daughter and was finishing up my dissertation, what's called ABD, “all but dissertation”.
 
Roberts: [00:29:36] And I got uncomfortable living [laughs] as a kept woman. I didn't have a job and I had to ask him for every penny I needed because even though I didn't bring any [college] debt [since I had received scholarships and fellowships], but I didn't bring any income when we first got married and so I… And my brother was—was really sick by that time. And I decided I wanted to get involved around HIV and AIDS, some way, somehow. So, I applied for a job I saw in the newspaper at the [SUNY] Downstate Medical Center being a research interviewer on a study about fertility related behaviors and HIV. And I did that for a brief period of time.
 
Roberts: [00:30:30] That kind of led one thing to another… Which is very different because what I had done—I did my dissertation on migrant farm workers, up in upstate New York. At that time, people who migrated to pick apples. They might have migrated from Florida where they picked oranges. And I guess I forgot to mention that my father had been a migrant chaplain in Pennsylvania for a short period of time—which meant he was a minister who went into the migrant labor camps in Pennsylvania, to provide support. And the church sent him as if he was there just to bring prayer. But he said, “No, people need bread and other things not only prayer. [Laughs]
 
Roberts: [00:31:11] Because he was… My father—I don't, I don't think I really said this, but he became a minister because his father had seven children and one of them had to become a minister. It was just kind of a given and none of his other siblings stepped up, and so he did—to please his father. When his father died is when he left the church, because I think he felt it wasn't really where his head was at—literally where his head was at. And so, he had gone to seminary at Lincoln University for a short time, but he also made the decision... He got more interested in reading things like Nietzsche, [laughs] you know, and the philosophers and things that were kind of counter to—you know, traditional religion.
 
Roberts: [00:32:01] But through the migrant ministry, something I always knew about… And for a period of time he also directed the Pennsylvania Council of Farm Workers out of Harrisburg. That was one of his later jobs. And so, I was always aware of how workers were treated, how they were exploited. I went to nursery school with children who migrated… In the camps—because my mother, I think—directed one of the nursery programs for a short time when I was a toddler. So I would—I was brought to those places with them. And—you know, my daughter's father—my oldest daughter's father, his family had been migrant farm workers who resettled into Allentown, and so I was always aware of it. And so it was ironic that when I got to Cornell and discovered that Cornell had run a migrant labor camp as an ag school, because they are very tied to the agricultural industry. And it disturbed me that in 1984 that these conditions still existed. And, you know… Because I'd known it all of my life pretty much, but I hadn't seen it up close and personal after living in D.C., and other areas. And so, I did a participatory research study of farmworkers who migrated as individuals and those who migrated as families.
 
Roberts: [00:33:49] And so when I came to New York, I didn't have any, quote unquote, “New York experience”. But the Community Service Society had given me a grant to buy my first computer because they still liked that I had a—I guess, enough of a social justice lens. They gave me that as a pittance instead of giving me a fellowship that would have allowed me to have some resources when I was finishing up my dissertation—because they were more focused on urban issues. And I was grateful for that.
 
Roberts: [00:34:19] So doing this job at Downstate was what got me involved with people doing HIV/AIDS work in the early—you know, relatively early period of the—of that epidemic.
And, it just opened my eyes too, you know… Because HIV touched upon so many aspects of people's lives, I just learned a lot very quickly about New York as I traversed much of the city—although I was focused on Brooklyn, for that first job. But then I went to work for the New York State Department of Health AIDS Consortium and was coordinator of a project in East New York, Brooklyn, where we were working with youth-serving organizations to stem off the epidemic, hitting young people—by doing early prevention and intervention with them. And then that job led to directing a program in Harlem for substance using mothers. So, you know, I finished up my dissertation…
 
Roberts: [00:35:20] In the meantime, my brother died in 1990. And that was when I was finally able to finish my dissertation because my grief period was my writing period. And then I… By then I was working at the State Department of Health, and I again got exposed to working with women who were leading, you know—folks to understand that HIV was not just impacting gay white men. That it was impacting people of color differently. And also—you know that particular communities were hit harder than others. So I worked closely with folks in Harlem, and that's also when I first got to… Involved with many organizations in the South Bronx. And I was doing that for a while, I had a great cohort of colleagues. One who, [smiles] I was the first boss of Phil Reed, [laughs] who went on to become a city council member [representing East Harlem and the South Bronx]. And he was like another brother to me in the aftermath of losing my brother. And he was also living with HIV and, you know… Just really seeing people doing work on the ground, that mattered—and it was just a really rich period of time.
 
Roberts: [00:36:56] And I came in feeling like, you know—the new kid on the block, being a lot younger than many of the people I was spending time around and learning from and with... And yet this energy that you could also fight the system [smiles] and change the system—sometimes from within. So, when I was working at the State Department of Health and AIDS Institute, although we were a small project within the AIDS Institute called the AIDS Consortium... That, you know… And I had a wonderful boss in Sally Kohn, who was one of the originators of the Project Street Beat, which took the mobile health unit out to people so they could, you know, have access to reproductive health care—sexual reproductive health care—where they were. And she allowed me and my colleagues—my immediate colleagues Linda Stewart Williams, who coordinated the project in Harlem, similar to what I was doing in East New York, and Andy Kruzich, who came from Seattle, Washington, and was coordinating the projects in the South Bronx at the time… Just being exposed to how we can do things on a neighborhood level as opposed to what the head of the AIDS Institute at the time wanted to do things on a borough level. And Sally recognized that if you worked on a neighborhood level and really got to know the people in a particular neighborhood and for—you know—a lot of reasons, that approach wasn't widely recognized, [smiles] as a need to do that. And just, you know, learn some things from some really smart and dedicated people to do things differently.
 
Roberts: [00:38:51] So we would go out to our respective projects. When we issued an RFP, and we would… Before then, they didn't have what they call—I guess they're called bidder’s conferences or it's like an opportunity to go and learn about the grant before you write your application. They weren't doing that before then, and we would go out and do that and we would… We were essentially helping them write the proposals [laughs] because we wanted them to get the money. That—what we were doing probably wouldn't be permissible today. But that's how Sally was—like, you know... She was just encouraging us to make sure we could do things because she wasn't a bureaucrat, and neither were any of us. And she brought us, you know—she hired us for a reason to kind of do things as radically as we could from within. And I've always felt that was important.
 
Roberts: [00:39:47] And, you know, some of the early trainings that I went to around HIV to become an [HIV/AIDS pre-test] counselor were things that also transformed my understanding of how you connect with people in the community. Not to tell them how to do things or to intervene, [laughs] but how to—you know, how to do things on their own terms and to—you know, be able to make a difference and to be respected and treated as fellow human beings. And, you know, that all shaped who I became as I was still figuring myself out. You know, still not wanting to be at all a part of the academy. But Sally left the AIDS Institute because she could no longer be a buffer [smiles] between us and the State Department of Health. So—when she left though, she made sure we all landed somewhere. So, I got referred to the Visiting Nurse Service as they were starting this initiative for substance using women through the child welfare agency... And took on a job—I'm like, “I don't know if I can do this.” A little bit of imposter syndrome. And I created a substance abuse program for parents, mostly women. Based on two things—what I learned about human development at Howard through the eyes of Erick Erickson on developmental stages, and bell hooks' Sisters of the Yam. That was my kind of guide and guidebook on how would you create an environment for people to heal from multiple trauma that might manifest itself with, you know—using substances in a way that was harmful to them or their children.
 
Roberts: [00:41:53] And that program, you know—I got to do that for five years. First under Dinkins and until Giuliani came in as mayor and finally ended it. It was on the butcher block every year under Dinkins, but we had supporters in Ruth Messenger in the borough president's office and C. Virginia Fields, who was on the city council at that time, and other supporters. But you know, when Giuliani came in, that was just kind of… You know, he lowered the ax on not only our programs, but on libraries and youth programs and all kinds of programs and services—you know, folks I had been collaborating with all those years.
 
Roberts: [00:42:38] And that's when I moved to… Entered the academy through the back door. So this would have been 1995. I needed a job. We had to find ways to make sure the families we were serving at the time could find other alternatives. Because before then, there had not been treatment programs that were centered around women at all, let alone women of color—you know, Black and Latina. And it had been a really… You know, I knew we were making a difference. I'm still in touch with several of those women. In fact, my dream project is to do an oral history of the women of First Steps, which is what we called our program. And because we're on a regular phone, text, chat and have periodic Zoom meetings now, we're planning a reunion of sorts with some of the staff and some of the women who have kept in touch, or re-found each other through social media and such.
 
Roberts: [00:43:50] And… So I called up my colleagues at Hunter College who were running a center on AIDS, Drugs and Community Health. I had been the contract manager for them when they were first started, when I worked at the State Department of Health. So I—having known them all those years, I was directing the program at Visiting Nurse’s Service, they knew me and they had been reaching out to me a few times following what I was doing with that program and asking, you know, "Lynn, do you want to come take this job?” [Laughs] You know?" And I said, “No! I'm doing this. I'm busy. Leave me alone.” And… But then when I was out of a job, you know—I'm calling them up sheepishly. [Laughs] You know, “You still have something for me?” And as it turned out, they did. So I was hired as a director of training and community projects at the Center on AIDS, Drugs and Community Health, at Hunter College. And I did that for about three years.
 
Roberts: [00:44:50] I was head of several projects, and so now again, mostly in the South Bronx actually, and some in Harlem, and some that were campus based... That all had to do with either HIV prevention or violence prevention. So I worked with some—I worked with three activist churches in the South Bronx whose pastors were very much on the front lines. And you know, we were going to Saint Mary's church and the park and got involved early on with people who were doing harm reduction and just a lot of folks—some folks who were doing environmental justice work in various projects that I was responsible for.
 
Roberts: [00:45:40] And then, in around… And I started teaching as an adjunct. I developed a course about the South Bronx and Harlem that also was community centered with folks who came into my classroom. And we—and also who brought us into their communities for tours and whatnot. And a lot of our students were engaged at that time and involved in these organizations. So, I felt there was a closer connection from who our students were at that time. Many of them were fully capable of being the ones—[smiles] you know, teaching what I was teaching. So I, you know—I was just there to facilitate, or create an environment for them.
 
Roberts: [00:46:35] And I… You know, I think it wasn't long after that that I first discovered Picture the Homeless. You know, somewhere along those lines. If my memory serves me correctly, [laughs] through some of those connections. But that course was my first. And I taught other courses, also. I started teaching the community organizing course. But the course on—that course I inherited from Beth Ritchie, who had created a project out at Rikers Island called Health—Health Link, which was to help folks returning… You know, to have support starting with—support in, when they were inside, mostly at Rose M. Singer. Through this center we had folks who went into Rikers and then, you know—built a coalition of folks who were part of the continuum of care—if you will, for them after they were released. Beth was on the faculty, and she fell in love and wanted to move to Chicago to join her partner. And there was a vacancy on the faculty and Beth was on the search committee and said, "Lynn, you know, you should apply for this."
 
Roberts: [00:47:54] And she—she and I had a long talk because I had never really wanted to be an academic. You know, my degree... Even my doctorate was in human service studies. So it was always applied. And I don't have a degree in public health, but everything I was doing I think since I stepped foot in New York, was around public health. You know, starting at—down in Brooklyn. So people knew me, and some people from various community organizations, you know, trusted me [smiles] in ways that... I don't know that they would have if I had had a straight and narrow academic career. And it was, you know—through relationship built over time.
 
Lewis: [00:48:39] And so the things happening in New York during that time, you know, Giuliani would have come in the early nineties, right?
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And then… So you have this explosion, all these cuts to health and life sustaining programs otherwise known as “welfare”.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: But that are really—help people live...
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: [00:49:08] And whole—rents and gentrification... And so, in this kind of context I'm sure you had to have come across a lot of folks who were homeless. And then you mentioned meeting Picture the Homeless. Do you remember the story of how you met Picture the Homeless?
 
Roberts: Only—yeah. The only… You know, this is what I'm trying to piece together. But it had to have been… I was working at our Brookdale campus. Down, you know—East 25th Street. And I was probably… Before we had some of the technologies we have now... But the early days of email, I would be on these listservs. So somehow, I must have joined your first listserv. That's what I'm thinking, right? Does that sound familiar? [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Yeah, you know, we would just
 
Roberts: That would have been created—because somehow I saw a… I got—I know, I remember seeing a flyer and might have been for some of the early meetings you were having. All I know is, when I had my community organizing course—which I probably would have been teaching… I first started teaching that in '98 or '99. But I don't think I became aware of Picture the Homeless until close to two, maybe 2000, if that sounds right.
 
Roberts: [00:50:34] And so whatever I got that way, I must've reached out. It must have been you. [Laughs] I don't know who else would have responded to an early email. But I invited… Yeah, because I think I wrote and said, "Could someone from your organization come to my class?" And I think that's when you first explained it wouldn't be you, it'd be one of your members. And I said, "That's fine." And then I've been doing it ever since. [Laughs] Like, all I know was that I wanted someone, you know, representing an organization... And I was really, just fascinated by what I was receiving and learning about Picture the Homeless even then. You know, from the—from the very beginning and so I… So, it could have been closer to 2002 because I know that's when I got involved with SisterSong and then when we had the mix up with me, you, and Luz [Rodriguez]. [Smiles] So I had—I wasn't involved with SisterSong until 2002. But because I inherited this course from Beth, I know I've been teaching it since '98. And that once I first invited Picture the Homeless to my course, I did it every semester afterwards [laughs] until the pandemic kind of made it a little more challenging. Or the times when I didn't teach it—which has only been, I think, twice in these years. That's how long it's been.
 
Roberts: [00:52:15] So, I'm trying to think who first came. That's a little harder for me to remember. [Long Pause] I can't remember, it might—Jean [Rice] might have been one. I know Jean was one of the first, but I don't know who was the very first. But I know because of where we were downtown on 25th Street, that sometimes the members who came, had to get… I always taught the class from six… Back then I taught the class from eight to ten because I was separated from my husband—or divorced. And that was the one night he had custody of the kids so I could teach late, and I would have all my classes on Thursday nights. So I might teach from six to eight and then—but I, for some reason I always taught this course from eight to ten. Maybe sometimes from six to eight. But I know that it impacted some of the members because they had to get back to their shelters by curfew.
 
Roberts: [00:53:27] And, I remember also that, you know, my class went through the—whether it was fall or spring, the session I invited them to might have happened on a cold night because of just when it happened in the semester. Because it wouldn't be one of the early sessions... And how cold it could be to walk from Lexington Avenue, because there's like the wind tunnel on 23rd Street [smiles] and just how humbled I was that they would… That someone would always come. And also that, I knew that if my students heard from them firsthand as opposed to me trying to describe the work at Picture the Homeless, that it could really make a difference in their understanding of grassroots organizing, but also the plight of people who are homeless wasn't about them, you know, living in SRO’s and shelters and getting handouts, but it was about them being able to determine their own solutions.
 
Roberts: [00:54:39] And this is all before the community land trust work and all those campaigns. So the early days were, you know—the Human [Civil] Rights Campaign, the canning… Like every one of your campaigns that your—you could mention… I felt like, you know—I witnessed from a relative distance, but still—each one of them just blew me away! You know, and I just knew I… It could open my students’ eyes to things, you know? That I didn't know how strategic you could be with organizing, until I encountered Picture the Homeless.
 
Roberts: [00:55:18] Because I'd still seen it—even with my father's work. I was too young to appreciate some of what he was probably doing with the people that he organized with back in Bethlehem. And I know some of his was very much an application of organizing. And—you know this… Just the stories they were able to tell of their situations, but also what they were learning about what they could do about it. And I knew that I couldn't—there's no one else I invited really, to this particular course, the South Bronx/Harlem course... Yes. Every week there was a different guest. But most semesters, the only external guest I brought in, other than Marian Feinberg, who would come and talk about her work with the South Bronx Clean Air Coalition because she and I had worked together... So anyone I'd brought to my class was someone I knew very personally. And initially I didn't know Picture the Homeless—you know, in that way.
 
Roberts: [00:56:22] But, I got to know… You know, and having Jean come—I remember one semester Anthony came, and sat sheepishly in the back without revealing to me who he was. [Smiles] So I didn't know he was co-founder and he just sat there in the back and was—but he was there I think, to observe the members because they were the ones who were supposed to be demonstrating that they could do this—you know, that they could speak. You know, because they may have been in different stages of learning how to give a presentation, or what have you. And I remember DeBoRah talks about that to this day in her… How nervous she was the first time she came to my class. I remember a couple who had a child who came, and they had to get back by curfew.
 
Roberts: [00:57:15] And my students—I have to say so many of my students were different than the students I have now. I don't know how else to describe it, but they were. You know, so when the sheet got passed around to sign—you know, that they had participated in a presentation—the sheet got filled. I remember over time and more recently, I don't even know if that is still done or would still be done, but that changed over time. People who were students, who were more reluctant to do that. We used to send a thank you note every semester that the students personally signed.
 
Lewis: [00:58:06] I remember the early days before I met you personally, and we were so excited to even get an email or a phone call [laughs] and then the word—strategic… And then we would have to assess, “Well, is this important for us to go to or do?”
 
Roberts: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And people thought it was so important to go, to speak in your class. And we would sit around and talk. We would just still in Judson, in like a small—now elevator shaft, office. And Anthony would be encouraging people to speak and… And he was kind of I think segue-ing from being the person who would speak, to support other people to speak.
 
Roberts: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And it's not—that's not easy. And then I—my role was that, “I'm not doing it!” [Laughter] Right. “You have to do it.” So, it was—you know, it's kind of dead around there at night when you talk about the wind tunnel and, you know—there's not a lot around there at night. And also it's right by Bellevue—which no one likes to go there—
 
Roberts: Mmmm-Hmmmm
 
Lewis: you know, go around there. [Laughs]
 
Roberts: [00:59:33] Yeah, it really is. Yeah, yeah. And people were coming far. They might have been in, you know, they were in one of the other boroughs. And having to get back to where they had to go to. And I remember feeling tremendous responsibility for them and feeling if… But they kept coming and I was just so like—I can't tell you how moved I was by that and—and to this day, I can't think of another organization quite like Picture the Homeless.
 
Lewis: [01:00:06] People would leave from the office and walk. So, Judson by Washington Square Park, they would get sign-in sheets and stuff.
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And in those early days, these were members who were street homeless, a lot of them. And they… So, they would have a backpack and they would get the sign in sheets and stuff, and we would have something to eat because people wouldn't—they would miss like a soup kitchen dinner. And we would, you know—just prepare, and think and talk through like, “What do you want to say and what's important to say and what's the class about?” And then when Jean started going, that really kind of notched it up. Because Jean was seen as kind of the professor and people
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: would call him that, but Jean didn't take it over per se, but became like an additional, very valuable
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: treasure, to that cohort.
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: But you are probably the first professor to have us come, and to always have us come back. And so your name—people knew you or knew about you, without knowing you. And so, it was really moving to meet you. Because we hadn't met… I love the story about how we met. [Laughter]
 
Roberts: [01:01:45] Yep. [Laughs]  I do, too. I do, too. Yeah. Yeah. And that was—it was interesting because it's almost like what was happening with me and Hunter with this—in this course in particular… I taught other courses too, even with undergraduate students, but this became my signature course other than the South Bronx Harlem course, which wasn't offered that often. It was offered when I first started teaching and then not again until we moved to East Harlem, to the Silberman campus.
 
Roberts: [01:02:16] And that's a whole nother era for me within Hunter. But, you know—and then I was also going through a painful divorce and managing four kids. And there was a lot going on for me personally during that—those years that were very, very trying. And yet, I felt like this was the one thing I was really proud of, you know—just this course, because I felt like I could convince enough students going into public health of the importance of organizing, even if just one or two of them became a little more interested and engaged in it—that I would have done something.
 
Roberts: [01:02:56] And yeah, so then when we—when we did meet and then also, you know, being able to participate differently with your organization, both through… I think deciding to become a—you know, a contributing member and going to dance parties and going to your wedding and bringing my entire family… [Laughs] My kids, you know—we still talk about that. And getting to know individual members more personally. And of course, you know—just my, you know—adoration of Jean, DeBoRah… Particular members who just became, you know, my close friends and comrades, as you say—was just on a whole nother level. And of course you [laughs] you know…
 
Roberts: [01:03:52] So—and just following some of the specific campaigns that—you know, were really… I don't want to say textbook. [Laughs] They should be considered textbook today. A new textbook. Right? And yet I know...  
 
Lewis: Because they stand out?
 
Roberts: Yeah. And I guess not knowing that… To say that is to say—and this is what I tell my students, because they're like, “Why are you having us read this stuff from so long ago?” Today, students think if it's two or three years old, it's too old to read—in the scheme of, you know, peer review literature and stuff. And I say, “Because we don't know the outcome of things until long after what has been done.” Right? But I remember stopping by some of—some of the, at least one of the sleep outs. I was never able to do that, with you. But I remember going until, you know, for a period of time and witnessing that. I think one was at a Chase Bank. [Laughs]
 
Roberts: [01:05:01] And when the first… When the early, you know, building counts were done. And I really do remember it—I'm sorry we don't have the video of it, but when it was presented at Hunter, at Roosevelt House. That whole—you know, with Peter Chin and the folks in the urban [studies department]—Tom Angiati, is that his name?
 
Lewis: Angotti.
 
Roberts: [01:05:32] Angotti. That that even happened was a minor miracle to me. Like—I'm sure many of you in the work and doing the work itself, it was significant. But from someone within the institution it was it was even more so, not more so, but differently so because I didn't think. You know, that could have happened. You know, at that time, because of the battles I was fighting, you know. You know, you know I had tenure, but they didn't promote me to this day. And there was a real resistance to some of the things I was doing when I when we premiered the film, that Andrew, what was Andrew's last name? Andrew did the film on El Barrio Tours, which had started because I… And because he led—Padilla I don't know why I was drawing a blank. When Andrew did his, he led one of the tours for my course. When I did it, when I did the redux of the South Bronx Harlem course, he led the East Harlem tour for my students. And that's when he told me about this film he was making and that's when I had started these First Fridays at Silberman to open our campus up to the community to come in. And we had this overflow when he premiered the film, and they were worried about the fire hazards. But Charlie Rangel showed up at the last minute and the president of Hunter College was upset with me personally because I didn't tell her he was coming, and he was a politician. He was still in office, and I wasn't supposed to do that. And she had no interest in me doing it otherwise. But because Charlie Rangel showed up, because he's in the film, she was beside herself. I mean, I got—I paid for that for years. [Laughs] And those are things people don't know, you know.
 
Roberts: [01:07:43] But and, you know, there are other moments like that, too, that I remember, again, having students who were also, you know coming from movement spaces. And you brought that into my classroom. It was, you know, I could do things because of the energy you derive from others, you know, wanting to head in a similar direction. And not being a lone wolf, it's very hard to be a lone wolf. So.
 
Lewis: It takes a lot of energy to be the lone wolf and survive.
 
Roberts: Yeah, absolutely.
 
Lewis: [01:08:23] I have a memory of you on our porch in the Bronx.
 
Roberts: Yes, I did come up.
 
Lewis: Hanging out. 
 
Roberts: Yeah. Because you had the, I remember you had the library there. And I do remember that. I was thinking of that, too, yeah, absolutely. 
 
Lewis: [01:08:41] I think—could you describe the office or your impressions or the vibe?
 
Roberts: Yeah, I remember how proud Jean was of his library there. [Laughs] Right? He had a lot of books and a space, and I think I just came to hang out, really—for a period of time. I don't recall if I brought anyone with me, you know—any students or others... Maybe something else I was involved in at the time. And I just remember there being, you know, art or these kind of colors—a lot of colors around [laughs] and how it was—you know, decked out. That it was, you know... It felt—it felt very active, you know, in terms of folks coming in and having… It wasn't large, but it did have a sense of home, and belonging... I liked that it was... Where it was in the community to be able to—that people could find you. [Smiles] But, I—yeah, I do remember that space. I think it was a meeting, there might have been a meeting that evening. You know, one of the weekly member meetings, I guess, because I don't think I'd ever been to one otherwise.  
 
Roberts: [01:10:16] I never made it to Judson Memorial for anything other than a vigil. I did go to one of the Longest Nights. But that was also always my son's birthday, so it was hard for me to come to those.
 
Lewis: Could you talk about what the Longest Night vigils were like and what they—what happened during them and what that meant to you?
 
Roberts: I think it was just really important to honor the significance of the winter solstice in that way. And both the symbolism of it and also the reality of folks who, you know—were remembered—who didn't make it, right? Who didn't survive being unhoused, for so many different reasons.
 
Roberts: [01:11:23] And that you could, I always thought of vigils as important—having gone through HIV and AIDS. Vigils had always been something that I think were significant. I went to them as a child with my parents for some of the civil rights moments, if you will. I was seven when Dr. King was assassinated. That same year, both my grandparents died—so there was always a remembrance in our community. We—when they marched… The Selma march was actually re- recreated… I don't know how else to describe, it in my community across a different bridge, that was also meaningful in Bethlehem. And these are, you know, memories I have from being—you know, from a very young age. And I'm grateful to my parents that I was—that they took us along. [Smiles]
 
Roberts: [01:12:38] And I don't know that they took us along—all of us along. But I think often my father took me along because my mother probably said, “Take her” because again, because of her teaching job I went to work more with my dad than my mom. Because my mom—if we had off from school, my mom was in professional development sessions because if we're out of school, the teachers are doing that. And my dad was—you know, kind of in charge so he would take me to work with him, and I'd hang out with the folks. But vigils in general—and even in my course, my class. I had students who would bring their own stories of vigils they had been a part of. Some of them in countries and places that had had—you know, severe human rights abuses and who would share those stories.
 
Roberts: [01:13:36] So it's always been meaningful to me to honor and that vigils are part of memory making, they're part of grounding us in why we do what we do. So as an ally, coming to a Longest Night vigil with Picture the Homeless was always a reminder to me why this is important. [Smiles] Why Picture the Homeless's work is important, and connecting... And collective grief is necessary.
 
Roberts: [01:14:09] So many of us… I think the worst thing is for a community not to have their losses recognized. And I think of the—you think of the many holocausts. Not “the Holocaust”, but the many holocausts that have happened throughout world history. That there is only one that gets described as “the Holocaust”, has always weighed heavy for me. And, you know—to have those who are lost, you know—forgotten… You know, just shouldn't ever happen. Yet, we know that it does. And yet we shouldn't have any kind of “oppression Olympics”, as Loretta likes to say. [Smiles] But it's about who gets… Whose life, and whose loss gets valued—and we know they aren't valued equally. And so I think that vigils are very important for that purpose.
 
Lewis: [01:15:33] That might have been how we first got your email because one of Picture the Homeless's first actions was about the morgue and how people were buried in Potter's Field. And we did something with Housing Works.
 
Roberts: Mmmmm.
 
Lewis: And so, you know, people were fast and easy sharing list emails [laughs] and stuff in those days. But this—one of the things that always struck me about that work… The acknowledging and creating space—both for grief about loss, but also to use that to fuel a forward looking commitment
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and kind of binding us together in a like emotional and spiritual way, even—was, if you're not respected in life, you're definitely not respected in death.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And how people were saying that we needed to… That it was the ultimate indignity.
 
Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 
Lewis: How people were just tossed in a hole like garbage.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And—and so it meant so much when, you know, we had this, we would have this Longest Night vigil. But when our friends would come, it was very moving for people—to join with us to do that.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:17:13] And I think, you know—back to the—the public health issue, we would have folks… I remember going to speak to your class, one man—Bruce… And, you know—homelessness causes health problems.
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And so we would, you know, try to really kind of reflect on what are the health—physical health or mental health, what are the ways that your health is impacted, so that you could share with these students because they'll be health professionals, so they'll know what to ask about?
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: [01:17:54] And, you know, people being given medication that had to be refrigerated and they had no refrigerators or the ways that sitting up all night on the train affects your circulation and people getting cellulitis.
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And I remember Bruce had a real severe case of cellulitis, and he was even, like—weeping through his skin. His legs were really swollen, and he just was so committed to going to speak to the class, even though his legs were just weeping. And he—you know, you're at risk of infection for that. And so, I think that the invitation and the welcoming was so important, but also thinking that they could have an impact on people in the future
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: who someone in their position might rely on.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Was so, was just so meaningful.
 
Lewis: [01:18:58] And I was wondering if there were things about Picture the Homeless that—that ever surprised you? Were there any moments… Do you ever remember just thinking, “Oh!” You know, any kind of like examples of that, from your interactions?
 
Roberts: Yeah, it might have been from the very first visit, but it was consistent. And this is one thing I want to say—why I think there was a standing, recurring invitation—was the analysis that was brought. The members always brought an analysis. You know, we talk about the stories and people hearing even the strategies, but also the analysis was always so sharp, and I wanted myself and the students to receive that. [Long pause] And it came from everyone. [Smiles] It came from—you know, every member who visited, it was just embodied in the organization, through your process that got created.
 
Roberts: [01:20:23] And I say this because, as I told you, I brought many people to my classroom. [Laughs] You are the only organization that I never stopped bringing. There was never a disappointment, “Oh, I wish they hadn't said that.” Ever! Ever, ever, ever. It was like—edge of my seat listening and knowing that that could have an impact… And on public health in a way, because I imagine that my students would end up in positions of influence and power that I didn't want them to ever forget Picture the Homeless. If they took nothing else from my class [smiles] I wanted them to remember Picture the Homeless. Not even me. Not anything I told them.
 
Roberts: [01:21:24] And I know a few of my students did—you know, reach out afterwards or become engaged and, you know, in some way or another. As recently as a couple of years ago, I think in 2020, I… And she was very humble about it. I'd have to go back to my class notes, because I was always curious—to know. I wish I could find out more… Whether what my goal and intent was, you know—materialized. Because there's not much I know of that in general, that could be about other things too, that I expose students to. But sometimes that comes up in their evaluations or some of their—their final exam is always to share. They have these open ended questions they have to respond to about different things.
 
Roberts: [01:22:15] They're asked to interview an organizer and maybe because you came to the class, you know—Picture the Homeless came, they never thought that they could reach out to one of the members [smiles] and interview one of them... Kind of mini, mini, mini oral histories, if you will—and they… I have a student this semester who's really grappling with it. They just don't seem to understand the assignment, so she had to take an incomplete. And I'm still working with her on [smiles] how to how to write up an interview. So, she did interview someone but what she gave me was—you know, I couldn't accept it. So rather than give her a poor grade, I just didn't grade it and gave her another opportunity, so...
 
Roberts: [01:23:59] But, you know, I do think I have been… Surprised? I can't say anything stands out that I can think of other… I mean, surprised in more of—maybe blown away just by, just the work around, you know, what has come. But, you know, the early work around the building count and the development of the Community Land Trust... I went to some of the early meetings and then I just couldn't stay as engaged as I wanted because my job just became so much more demanding. I'm still on the [NYCCLI] listserv, so I follow that—every time I have to say, “Oh, I can't go.”
 
Roberts: [01:23:45] One of my biggest regrets was that I didn't get to go to one of the early convenings around the Community Land Trust that was held in East Harlem—can't remember the space that was up in the tower building.
 
Lewis: Taino Towers.
 
Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. Because I had intended to go and I think again, I was going through a lot personally with my oldest son and things like that happening that sometimes interfered with what I could do. But I do know that—and that's the other piece that the analysis that led to that, you know? And, you know—working with the others and some of my colleagues—you know, CUNY colleagues, and others who got engaged more deeply than I—than I was able to do. But who, you know, were pushing this work forward.
 
Roberts: [01:24:47] And the travels, you know—Jean going to the international meetings and all of you going places together, or several of you going and you know, just... I just remain in awe. I don't know how else to describe it—that the work has always been grounded in social justice as I come to understand it. And I haven't found that many other places, not even in my reproductive justice work, you know. And it doesn't mean it's perfect or, you know, not fraught with challenges, to say the least. [Smiles]
 
Roberts: [01:25:36] You know, so I used to say that I—you know, the reason I claim reproductive justice so much is that I would go into racial justice spaces and feel there was no gender analysis. I'd go into the—the spaces with other women, and sometimes there wasn't enough racial analysis [smiles] or… And then there were always spaces where there wasn't enough class analysis. And I'm like, “I have to find where—where do I find it all?” So, reproductive justice became that for me, for… For a period of time. And I think it still is, but it has fallen short in—in having it all there because that's the nature of it, right? Is that, you know, people... It's hard to do that real intersectional work all the time. It's a challenge for any one of us individually, and it's certainly a challenge for us collectively. You know, we're still grappling with that and I'm getting ready to head to a convening next week with others who are trying to figure this out in this moment of post-Dobbs, and all that. And I still believe it's possible, so... But I have to say, in terms of those most impacted determining the solutions and working with allies to achieve them, I still think that Picture the Homeless comes the closest to that for me.
 
Lewis: [01:27:05] Well, I—I am really humbled by that. And, you know, I've come to really believe that one of the reasons it's so hard to have… To like, hold a consistent intersectional analysis is because we always see the oppression that is hitting us most hardest, right?
 
Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: And not because we don't care, but because that's what's in our face, right? [Smiles]
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: And then unless we really have, you know—comrades, a sisterhood with women for example, that maybe are more impacted by race… I wouldn't be as a white woman… That can also be in our face, or in our ear, or in our hearts… Then I think people just don't think, right—about it because they don't have to. And one of the—the things about Picture the Homeless that was very imperfect, but that people really worked on was… There was a lot of homophobia. There was a lot of misogyny. There was just a lot of—just shit talk, and also people hurt and angry at their own situation. And—which was dire. And so… But to be in a group that had—that can create space for people with—who are suffering other forms of oppression.
 
Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 
Lewis: And to understand that they're being harmed—not in the same way, but maybe by the same system. And that we're not going to win if we don't join together.
 
Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 
Lewis: We would have to remind ourselves of that all the time. But I… People that stayed I think, got it, or at least got the need to grapple with that.
 
Roberts: Mm-hmm.
 
Lewis: [01:29:12] And so having—having close friends like you… [Smiles] You know, none of that misogyny, none of that kind of talk would happen in front of Dr. Roberts. [Laughter] It would just be, “Oh no! We can’t have this!”
 
Roberts: Understood. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so, yeah—that level of respect…
 
Roberts: But just having the presence… That's why the presence matters, right? Yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Roberts: [01:29:38] Yeah. And it doesn't mean that it goes away, but at least because you—because you're aware of it… Because these things seep into every organization, so it's that awareness that it shouldn't happen. That even for those who may be committing it—you know, are making progress, right? That they have that awareness to curtail it, is even progress. [Laughs] If that makes sense. Not ideal, and not a… You know, that doesn't mean that you don't want more of that, but yeah. It is complex.
 
Roberts: [01:30:16] And I have to say because... It's not easy organizing among women of color, either, [smiles] you know—because of what people bring into it. From their own, you know, past traumas that they visited upon each other and that they also—you know, don't necessarily have the self-reflection to… Think that you know—it could be different. Or to trust each other enough to—to work through it. And even though we thought we built that into a lot of our strategy it—and even when I've been the one kind of mediating that within—within… You know, when I served on SisterSong's work for many years, a lot of that was mediation between our—you know, our different, you know—subgroups of people of color and indigenous women, and also the gender analysis and sexuality inclusion that we didn't have early on.
 
Roberts: [01:31:23] People even question why we were called SisterSong, right? [Laughs] And found it—in like that whole… And also where it becomes so… Seems to be opening it to be more inclusive but then also can be perceived as erasure of those who were also—you know, organizing around the things that matter. And I don't think we've resolved that anywhere in our movement spaces, you know. With the, you know—as we try to be more inclusive of, you know—nonbinary, gender non-conforming people. It's still complex in my mind. And I hope we—I hope we continue to just get better at figuring that out so that we can be unified to fight the system. [Laughs] Because it is the same system! And that's the frustrating part. You know, it is the same system. But I—I still see we're—we're still fighting each other more than I wish we were.  
 
Lewis: [01:32:27] One of the ways that we imagined being able to do that, right, build up that that capacity and just openness—was to have fun with each other. And so, you were always someone—I don't know if you ever missed any of our parties. [Smiles]
 
Roberts: I try not to. [Laughs] I try not to. Absolutely.
 
Lewis: And I—I remember, for example, Jean holds you in very high regard. And you know, I even remember times where he would say, “Oh, don't tell Dr. Roberts I said that.” Or did that... [Laughter] But then, you know, being on the dance floor with you—you know, and the ways that we can create space to get to know each other
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: as just—as folks.
 
Roberts: Absolutely.
 
Lewis: [01:33:27] And so could you… Do you have any memories of any of those times that you shared?
 
Roberts: Oh my goodness! Do I ever… I have too many. I mean I—I remember one at—was it at CAAAV? Was there one at CAAAV? Did they have a space…  I remember the one at the space that's now torn down—at the National Black Theater. And that was—I think that was the year I might have been on the… One year, I was on the fundraising committee for the fund… You know, the planning for the—for that event… Some culminating event—I don't—that you did every year, the annual. So that was special just to get to hang out with—with other, you know—members of the committee and I remember we had a planning meeting down at the labor union space.
 
Lewis: 32BJ.
 
Roberts: Yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Roberts: [01:34:40] And I'm sure we had one… Was there one at Taino Towers? There might have been one there, I'm trying to remember. Maybe not.
 
Lewis: Yeah, we had—we had a party there. We had a party... Our fifteenth anniversary was at the—the, like the Fire Museum and it was… We had a tenth anniversary gala at Judson,
 
Roberts: Yes.
 
Lewis: but the annual one we called Dancegiving.
 
Roberts: Dancegiving was the one that I worked on. Yeah. Dancegiving, one year.
 
Lewis: [01:35:12] What were those parties like?
 
Roberts: Ahhhh. I think just the—just being able to celebrate and that everyone brought everything to it, you know? [Laughs] You know—contributed in some way or another. Hearing the testimonials, the recognitions, the music, the dancing, the—just being joyous together. Because joy is part of movement building that people kind of forget about. Because if we don't have that, I don't think we'd be bonding quite the same way… If we're only coming together to say, “Well, that's not going well. What's not right. What's wrong?” And I always felt elevated by that.
 
Roberts: [01:36:07] [Smiles] I do remember Jean not wanting to dance with me. [Laughs] And so that was always—you know, a challenge. I don't know that he ever did. [Laughs] I recall—as hard as I tried… And, I remember times that Jean would just come to my office, and we would sit, and he was so proud of his grandson and—you know, some very personal moments with many members who would come to my office, maybe before they were coming to my class or… But sometimes, I think Jean came sometimes just to come by because he was—you know, we you know—we had… Especially when I was at Silberman in East Harlem, it was a little easier, more convenient. I don't know that Jean has been to my newest office. You know, the one where I am now. DeBoRah [Dickerson] has been, you know, but we've only been there... He might have. I'm trying to remember. [Long pause] Maybe once, maybe once, but maybe not. Yeah, I think maybe once, because it's—it's also a building that they know well, because it's the square where some of those… I think the Social Security offices used to be? 55 West 125th Street.
 
Roberts: [01:37:34] Yeah, they told me that. And then coming to the first time… I think the last social event I came to was tied to the oral history project. Wasn't a dance, but it was—there was a was a… I think was around a holiday. And when you had the—you had some of the images up and…  
 
Lewis: At the Urban Justice Center.
 
Roberts: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: That was right before COVID hit.
 
Roberts: Yeah, and I think that was the last—you know, in person event I got to. And maybe the last one you had.
 
Lewis: Yeah, it is the last one.
 
Roberts: And I think just then the hardest thing was losing Nikita. You know, and thinking of, you know, another kind of just significant moments for me in the history of Picture the Homeless.
 
Roberts: [01:38:29] But also remembering times I visited the storefront on 127th Street and a gathering in the back of that. There was an outdoor event with music and things going on, too. That was a—that was, I think it was… It was in warm weather, so it was a bit of a picnic, maybe? It was outdoors.
 
Lewis: It was our open house! When we first moved there. I have—we have wonderful pictures. We have a lot of photos of most of these things. And so I have some… I'm picturing in my mind, some pictures of you from that event. And it was a wonderful community gathering for us, and we were very happy to have been able to move there. And we haven’t…
 
Roberts: And I was thankful that you were so close to where I was, you know.
 
Lewis: [01:39:25] We did the—the event at the Urban Justice Center. That listening party for this project was also a fundraiser to… So that some of us could go to a conference in California. And Nikita, DeBoRah, myself, Jean—were going and we were going to have a little exhibit of the oral history project, but also participate in workshops and stuff. And then we couldn't go because of COVID. Everything started shutting down, and they eventually decided to not have the conference. And Nikita and Jean and Marcus and a couple folks—Andres, DeBoRah, Arvernetta… Really tried so hard to keep the office open
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: safely during that time. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:40:26] I'm very happy I could interview Nikita for this.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And I actually worked on his interview the other day—synced it with the audio… And I thought I would be it would be hard, but it was very nice
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: to hear him.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And yeah, it was—you know… Like, I'm tearing up. But it was—it was nice. And he was funny and smart,
 
Roberts: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and he was exhausted. He was exhausted.
 
Lewis: [01:41:01] But I don't think, you know—Picture the Homeless would not have grown into the… Its own power without having support and friendship, with people like you, and especially going all the way back to the beginning where we didn't even know you, you know [smiles] and you were like—this professor, inviting us to their class! [Laughter] You know that we—that—that was so important for us. It was… All those kind of invitations were important. But yours came so early, and so it was—it was like a validation almost… And that you wanted people to come back. [Laughs]
 
Roberts: Yeah. And I still do! [Laughs]  
 
Lewis: I—I am, but also I know many of us were grateful to you and, and then to build friendships from that—in all the different kinds of ways, and folks that you became friends with… And me personally really valuing you. I just—there's not words really to describe that.
 
Roberts: [01:42:19] Yeah, just saying—absolutely. I still remember fondly our day kayaking and dancing [laughs] in Jersey.
 
Lewis: The Meters!
 
Roberts: I have a lot of friends, but not many of my friends venture across the river to New Jersey to hang out. [Laughs] All my friends, all my New York friends and just… You know, just over the years and just so—so much respect, and it is so mutual you know, the fondness of knowing you both… And even in your newer, you know—work as an oral historian and that path and journey just really inspires me. So, thank you.
 
Lewis: [01:43:06] Well, I guess we'll wrap up, but I don't want to let you go
 
Roberts: Yeah, I know!
 
Lewis: because I wish I was across the river hanging out. [Smiles] And when the weather gets warmer...
 
Roberts: We will, yeah—we will.  
 
Lewis: I will—I will come and visit you at a time that works for you. So you let me know.
 
Roberts: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And I would love that.
 
Roberts: [01:43:32] Me too. Absolutely. This has been such a delight. And again, I am really honored to be a part of this project and can't wait to—you know, read and absorb more of it from what you describe that you're pulling together here… Or even from the earlier glimpses and some of what you've shared—even with me, to share with my students. The last time you visited virtually, and you know, even those little clips were really, really powerful. I can only imagine…
 
Lewis: Alrighty, well—have a wonderful rest of your day.
 
Roberts: Sure. And keep—you know, keep enjoying your hibernation [laughs] as much as possible and your amazing, you know—family and partner. And we will both be in touch.
 
Lewis: All right. Thank you for everything, for all these years. And hugs to your beautiful kids and your Pumpkin [smiles] and…
 
Roberts: [Smiles] Absolutely.
 
Lewis: All right. Love you a lot.
 
Roberts: I love you—love you, too. Bye.
 
Lewis: Bye.
 
[End of Interview]