Kay Samuels

Lewis: [00:00:03] Good evening. I’m Lynn Lewis with the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project.

Samuels: Okay.

Lewis: And it is December 6, 2019 and we are honored to have Miss Kay Samuels here. [laughter] How are you?

Samuels: [00:00:19] Okay, all right.

Lewis: Thank you. And so, we’ll start the interview by getting to know you a little bit, where you’re from.

Samuels: [00:00:27] Born and raised Harlemite. That’s about as succinct an answer as I can give you. I think that describes me pretty well. I feel like Harlem is in the epicenter of a lot of these changes that have been taking place, primarily relating to housing. And if you look at even what the Furman Group is saying, a lot of people in Harlem have been pushed out. It’s almost as though we’re disappearing—out of Harlem—and it’s primarily the housing that’s doing it. We can’t afford to live in our own community. And the sad part about it is that the people that we elected are a huge reason why we are being pushed out of our own community.

Lewis: [00:01:29] And when you say, “I’m a Harlemite,” what does that mean to you?

Samuels: It means—growing up in a community that looked out for each other, knowing your neighbor and your neighbor knowing you. And if you got into any mischief, telling your parents. Neighbors that looked out for you when you came home from school early if your parents couldn’t be home ’cause they were working... This was a community where people looked out for each other, they know each other. You even know, believe it or not, the policemen that walked the beat in your community. But things have changed. And we now have an influx of people who know nothing about this community. And not that they don’t want to know, or not that they don’t care about the community, they just have different—I guess—approaches to doing things that really are out of the cultural context of the community.

Lewis: Do you have an example of that that you can think of?

Samuels: [00:02:14] Well, [laughs] I think one good example is the increase of the rent! I think that’s a good example of a change in the cultural context of the community. I mean… They don’t—I believe—understand that by paying the higher rents that they’re paying in our community; it’s pushing the community that made it special—out of here so that they can no longer live in the community. It means that your aunt down the street had to leave so that if you have to come home from school, you don’t know where you’re going to stay. Maybe you can go to a library and stay when you used to go to Auntie’s house… Grandma, who used to watch the children when Mom went to work—because everybody kind of lived in the same neighborhood—can no longer afford to stay in the neighborhood. So, you see mothers on the train now very early in the morning taking their kids either to another family’s house that’s maybe even in another borough so that they can go to work—and the kids are half asleep on the train. I mean, these are the kinds of things that are happening which, to me, are not positive in the community. People don’t know each other like they used to know each other—in the community. You don’t know who’s in, you know, 226 or 236. Whereas—building address, whereas years ago, you knew who lived in that building, they knew who lived in your building. [Smiles] Everybody knew each other in the block! It’s just not happening anymore.

Lewis: What block did you grow up on?

Samuels: [00:04:15] One Hundred Forty-Ninth Street, North Harlem. And… We weren’t really like neighborhoods, so to speak, in the sense of North Harlem, South Harlem, and all of that. But there was a different kind of flavor in the different neighborhoods... But it was all Harlem. And Harlem went through, again, its transitional changes. I mean, if you know anything about Adam Clayton Powell—and the fact of—and you heard anything about Blumstein, where only white folks could work in Blumstein. But we could go in there and shop and spend our money. Adam said, “You don’t shop where you can’t work.” And [laughs] he put… he had folks doing rallies and everything in front of the building, until eventually they had to hire the people who lived in Harlem that were making them their money!

Lewis: Were you a child when that was happening?

Samuels: [00:05:24] No, I think it happened a little before I realized what was going on—but more so during my mother’s time.

Lewis: [00:05:33] And did your mom—did you all talk about stuff like that when you were a kid?

Samuels: [00:05:36] Oh yes. My grandfather sold African American books, and African books. So, my household, I learned to read very early. I used to sit up under my grandfather and he would read to me and I would learn to read from that. And my grandmother, too. My grandmother came from Barbados, which had an over ninety-five percent reading—most of the people read in that country. Believe it or not, yes, in a West Indian country. My grandfather wanted to be a schoolteacher. Grandma came over when she was fourteen years old, on a boat. I don’t know if her granddaughter could do that. But she did it. And when I went back and looked at Ellis Island records, there was here name.

Lewis: What was her name?

Samuels: [00:06:26] It was really something to see—Daisy. It was really, really something to see. Fourteen years old… And in those days, you had family that received you over here. And she had to work as basically a washer woman. Grandpa wanted to be a schoolteacher and she met him because he was the elevator man in the building that they were—she worked in. So, that’s how the two of them met each other. And they used to tell me that he had—because he used to swim a lot, in Jamaica, his hair was reddish from the ocean. It kind of bleached out his hair. And I’ve never seen him with his red hair, but my grandmother used to tell me about that—about him. So, they were, quote-unquote—that’s why I understand the whole immigrant story, because it’s very close to me, I’m second generation American. But my grandparents, like just about everybody else in the United States of America, had immigrant parents.

Lewis: Yes.

Samuels: [00:07:36] I’m just closer to them in the sense of generation.

Lewis: Yeah, I had my great-grandparents…

Samuels: [00:07:43] You know, and… Then Mom—who wanted to be a model—my mother was beautiful. And in those days, you know, you didn’t have the models you have now that are six feet and are… I guess, the size of that pen over there. [Laughs] But she was like, five-nine, which, in those days, was considered tall. But my mother was gorgeous. She was into fashion and she ended up going to high school where Harry Belafonte went to high school. They have a whole list of people up at that school now, G.W. [George Washington Educational Campus], in Upper Manhattan. I don’t know how she got up there, but she got up there for high school. She had told me she didn’t want to go to schools anymore. She went to ones—the schools with girls, all girls—anymore, because she had gotten out of 136 on 135th Street, close to the police precinct. And she said, after that experience—they used to have fights and all that kind of stuff—and she said, “I just”—‘cause she could’ve gone to Wadley. Wadley was all girls at the time. And she said, “No.”

Samuels: [00:09:00] So, she somehow ended up at G.W., in what we would call now Upper Manhattan—or Inwood area. She, as I said, wanted to go into fashion and they—the counselor there told her that, you know, Black girls couldn’t get into fashion… So, unfortunate for my mother—‘cause I think she would’ve really been great in fashion. My mother could draw. I can’t draw a rock; I can’t draw a circle. My mother could draw beautiful dresses. And so, she decided, well, I need to be able to make money some kind of way. So, then she went into being a secretary. When I wrote my term papers and everything, my mother edited them. She used to edit the work of the men that she used to work for in the Corps of Engineers. So, my work used to be very good because after Mom finished editing it, she’d make suggestions and whatnot and I would follow the suggestions. And I learned how to write, make a point, how to do certain things in writing, because of her. So, you know, I really miss her. I really miss her—because we used to talk about everything, just about. So, when I lost her, I really… It was just a very sad period for me. Also, when I lost my grandparents because we were like a unit.

Lewis: Did you all live with your grandparents?

Samuels: [00:10:48] Yes. And—I can’t complain about my childhood. I know a lot of people who’ve had rough childhoods, so I don’t—try to—if somebody’s had a rough childhood, I don’t like to talk too much about my childhood because I don’t want anybody to think that I’m trying to rub it in about how my childhood was or was not… Because I know some kids have had very rough childhoods and have made it the best way that they can and they see the world out of that prism, you know, what happened to them and how they survived to make it to adulthood. Because, as we know, not all kids survive well, all—you know, without problems. But I have to admit, I really enjoyed my grandparents and my mom, and I really miss all of them because we really had a fun household. We really did. And because my grandfather, in particular, believed in education, you know, he would push me. And my mother also believed in education. So, he just pushed me along.

Lewis: [00:12:10] And what was your grandfather’s name?

Samuels: He was Halton.

Lewis: Halton. Did he sell books from his home or did he have a store?

Samuels: [00:12:18] He had a store for a while, but he also worked with Michaux on a hundred and—and you may remember this—on 125th Street, the Michaux Bookstore, on that corner before they put the State Office Building up.

Lewis: That I don’t remember.

Samuels: [00:12:33] Well, they had a bookstore there—in fact, that whole street, that’s where Malcolm X used to put a…

Lewis: Soapbox?

Samuels: —not a soapbox. I believe he used to use a—ladder. I think. And this is the interesting part of history. You could pass on Seventh Avenue sometime on the bus and you would hear him speaking—that I remember.

Samuels: [00:13:02] But, Michaux had his bookstore there and I think the diamond store was over there, too—a guy who sold jewelry and stuff. I don’t know if it was a pawn shop, as well. I’m trying to remember. But Michaux’s bookstore I remember and meeting him—and my grandfather and him always talking to each other, and whatnot. So, I was always somehow around Black history. And Harlem had that air about it, a Black historical air about it. But I think Michaux was like, the most well-known bookstore. And he had everything in there—everything, every kind of thing in terms of Black history in there. They were supposed to give him, from my understanding, on the first floor of the State Office Building, space for a store, and it never happened. That was part of the deal that was cut because—you know, the people delayed that building for years because they didn’t want it built there.

Samuels: [00:14:11] And supposedly again, a Black politician [laughs] stabbed him in the back, from the story that I was told—now, this is not a first-hand—the story that I was told—and cut a deal to put the building there. And then they named it, you know, after Adam. I guess that made it more—palatable to the community. But they also knew that by putting that building there, that destroyed the corner, the whole nuance and feel of that corner. I think, with that idea in mind, that was part of the reason why people fought so hard about the rezoning, because they remember the loss of that street, that corner—and how important it was historically. So, to lose that, you lost—a gathering point where people used to get knowledge.

Lewis: [00:15:08] Could you talk about the folks at… Malcolm X and other folks that used to speak there and what kind of knowledge people were getting?

Samuels: Well, you know, Malcolm basically told people to be in control of their lives and not depend on somebody else—to take care of them... So, he became a danger to some people, including some Black people, because he removed their importance. And this is what I mean: [smiles] if you are used to the white man coming to you, for you to be the controller of—situations that occur, you get a little upset when somebody steps in the way who can’t be bought off and says, “No, we’re not going to do it this way.” And when they come with people. So, I believe, to some of our Black leaders, Malcolm was an annoyance, because unlike many of them who were always ready to cut the deal… And somehow they got something out of the deal—he wasn’t. His whole thing was, “What does the community get?” That could be very problematic for someone who’s been operating for years off of, “Come to me and I’ll take care of it for you, boss.” So, I believe he was catching it from a whole bunch of different areas, that wasn’t just white, [laughs] you know, unfortunately… But people listened to his words because they made sense, and people had had enough. So that, that area or time during the ‘60s and whatnot, people were ready for the revolution or what was considered the revolution, which was: protect yourself, take care of yourself, do your own thing, create your own businesses, be less dependent.

Samuels: [00:17:18] And as much as you hear people say that Black people should be that way, really I don’t think some people mean that because as long as you’re dependent, the other person’s in control, and you are not. So, between him and Adam Clayton Powell—and some other people who were in the community who have passed, that some of the people—and really, I guess somebody really needs to do a history on all of these people that folks know about and they pass on to each other orally but do not put it in writing—of all the folks who were in this community that affected things in the community at different times, and affected it positively, even though they may have been not considered right-behaving Black people. They had a positive effect on their community. I don’t know if you’ve been watching the series on Epic TV,  The Godfather of Harlem.

Lewis: No, I saw the signs for it, but I don’t have Epic TV.

Samuels: [00:18:41] Well, I broke down, because Epic was seven dollars a month, and I really didn’t have the seven dollars a month. [Laughs] But I broke down and I said I’m going to watch it, even if it’s just for this series. And actually, it’s been very good—in terms of the historical nature of Bumpy, who was a drug dealer, but he was [laughs] the Godfather of Harlem, Adam Clayton Powell, and Malcolm X. They show the interplay and interaction of all three of them. Now, I’m sure some of it is dramatic, just for drama. But if you were here at that time, a lot of what they’re saying—you remember what happened. And, when I watch it, I’m like amazed because I remember my grandfather talking about Bumpy. He didn’t get too specific, but [smiles] everybody knew Bumpy was in the numbers game and that’s how a lot of Black men made money those days. And they still play numbers.

Lewis: [00:19:50] In Jean’s interview, whom you know, he talked about how—ways that Black folks made money—that was illegal, the state took over—

Samuels: Yes.

Lewis: —and made it legal, and

Samuels: And cut them out of the game altogether.

Lewis: And cut them out, like numbers.

Samuels: [00:20:07] And numbers was—one of the main one. And all of this lottery stuff is nothing but high-class numbers, [laughs] you know? That’s basically it… But, you know, as I said, when you grew up at that time, that was really, you know, fist in the air, marching to different things. My grandfather went down to the March on Washington. He left me home. He was a little bit worried, but when he came back, he told us all about it and everything and we were all excited about hearing about everything. So, I kind of lived through all of that, you know, especially with my grandparents and my mom. They gave me a Black awareness and an education. And they made me know what a family is like and how to have fun. So, as I said, I can’t complain about my childhood.

Lewis: [00:21:12] You were an only child?

Samuels: Only one.

Lewis: And your mom, too, was an only child?

Samuels: Yes.

Lewis: And her name was?

Samuels: Ermin.

Lewis: [00:21:19] Ermin. And you went to school in your neighborhood where you lived?

Samuels: Resurrection.

Lewis: You went to Catholic school?

Samuels: [00:21:27] Yes, and Catholic high school, and then I diverged. I didn’t want to go to a Catholic college. I could’ve but I just—I felt like I needed to get out of that, because during that time, and I don’t know if it’s the same way at college, Catholic colleges, you were really in a very cloistered type of—situation because you were always—to me, at that time, if you were in Catholic anything as a student, you were cloistered to a certain degree. You were protected to a certain degree. So, at that point, I said, it’s time for me to—once I got out of high school—to go into a public whatever. So, at that time, I was accepted into Columbia.
 
Lewis: What year did you graduate from high school if you don’t mind?

Samuels: Sixty-nine I think, 1969.

Lewis: So, you were in high school during exciting times.

Samuels: [00:22:34] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, and it played out in high school, too, because I went to high school in The Bronx, and it was a handful of Black students in there.

Lewis: Which school?

Samuels: Cardinal Spellman. Excellent high school. And they prepared—and at that time, it was coeducational, not—it was co-institutional, not coeducational. Which meant that the girls were on side, and the boys were on the other. Now it’s coed, I understand. But you, in those days, could not get caught on the other side of the school or it was just, I mean, you know, the world would spin out of [laughs] orbit and, you know, everything crazy awful would happen.

Samuels: [00:23:21] But they did prepare the women students for the world—whether it was for college, to go on, or to go into secretarial. At that point they did not put out, like, regular secretaries. You were meant to go to at least a two-year college and become—in those days, you could go to college for two years and become an—administrative assistant. So, in their mind, when you got out, as a woman student, you were going to do something. You just weren’t gonna—just—even if you were going to go and get married or something or the other, you would be married [laughs] with a degree, you know? Something or the other. So, I’ll give them that. That they did do. And… So, that I thank them for.

Samuels: [00:24:13] The racial stuff that went on in there, was interesting.

Lewis: Tell us about that.

Samuels: Okay, because we are all supposed to, you know, believe in Jesus Christ and whatnot but some people didn’t act like [laughs] they believed in Jesus Christ, let me just put it that way… And—you know, there were some racist things that took place. But I got through my four years. And I remember I had started the African American Club and it was supposed to be put in the yearbook and it wasn’t. And my grandfather was very upset and went to the nun and said, “You know, no one’s ever going to know my granddaughter is the one that started the African American Club here.” And he says, “How can we correct this?” He was really very, very angry and I could understand that because that was done on purpose. So, those kinds of things were done. And—you know—you just have to move on in life.

Lewis: So, it wasn’t corrected?

Samuels: Never was corrected.

Lewis: [00:25:20] And what kinds of things did you all do in the African American Club?

Samuels: We had—at one point, we had a fashion show… One time… I think we did some other stuff. I can’t remember clearly all the little things that we did. But just our presence there was an annoyance to some folks. We could’ve been there for four years and done nothing. But just to have [laughs] a club was enough of an annoyance. I don’t know what they have there now. I’m sure it’s a whole different scene than it used to be, because even the Latinos caught a little bit of it during that time. And now, you know, they’re in love with Sotomayor because she came out of Cardinal Spellman High School.

Lewis: So, when—you entered there in ninth grade?

Samuels: Yes.

Lewis: And did you start the club then?

Samuels: I’m trying to think now...

Lewis: Sorry to bug you with these details but I could just picture you as a teenager going to Cardinal Spellman and starting this club, and it’s really powerful.

Lewis: Tell the story. What happened?

Samuels: I just basically—now I’m just re-remembering it ’cause, you know, some of these things you do and it’s kind of, like, you just roll on with your life. We had Martin Luther King Day. It wasn’t—I don’t think we had the day yet. In fact, we didn’t—because I was older when they finally created Martin Luther King Day because you know that President Reagan didn’t want to do it.

Lewis: Yes, I think it finally happened in the eighties, after Reagan, was it?

Samuels: [00:27:51] I remember standing on the freezing Mall, down at Washington, when—who made the song, “Happy Birthday”?

Lewis: Steve Wonder?

Samuels: Stevie Wonder was there with a whole bunch of other people, and it was, like, when is this going to end—because it was so cold. But it was a very good presentation. And, as I said, it was freezing, and he came out at the end, and did “Happy Birthday.” I remember standing on that Mall and there was—quite a few white people on that Mall that were supportive of that holiday. And little white girl was saying to her mother, “What is this all about? I don’t understand,” you know? And the mother—I don’t know who this lady was—gave the history of Martin Luther King, and why we should have this day, to her daughter. She’s probably a grown woman by now, you know, based on when, you know, they finally had the holiday. It was over, what, twenty years plus now?

Lewis: Yeah.

Samuels: [00:29:04] But her mother was explaining to her, and that meant something to me because I was standing there, I’m saying how does she not know who Martin Luther King was? And then, I remembered the kid wasn’t even born [laughs] at the time he was killed, you know. But she patiently just went through what he had done and why it was important to have this day, which I thought was interesting. But there was a lot of white folks on that Mall that day—there in support of having a Martin Luther King Day added as a federal holiday.

Samuels: [00:29:39] I think those are very teachable moments because it lets you know that there are many people in this country that want to have change—on many things—and that you just need to—you don’t always want to surround yourself with like-minded people, but sometimes you need to, and to realize that not all the people who agree with you look like you. There are other people who don’t look like you that agree with what you’re doing, or about an issue. And I think a good example of that is looking at AOC [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]. It wasn’t only Latinos that voted for her, in that district. It was other people who were fed up and whatever she was saying, it hit the point.

Samuels: [00:30:37] So, when it came to Martin Luther King, so many years before they had the holiday, to have to stand up in front of two thousand kids—I would say seven-hundred of which [laughs] don’t want to hear anything about this, and have to say what I said, you know, those are the things you really should keep, and I don’t know if I could ever lay my hands on that speech. But I would really like to.

Lewis: And so, I imagine when you were writing it, your family—mom was involved.

Samuels: [00:31:11] Mom helped me, yes. She helped me write it… I’m trying to remember—I went through, I think, a bit of the history of the things that he did and why it was important to have the day. But I don’t think I remember much more about what I said. But I know the feeling in that room—you could feel it.

Lewis: What was it?

Samuels: [00:31:38] It was—not good. But as I said, I knew it wasn’t everybody. But, I would say a majority of those kids—as I said, two hundred—I would say fourteen hundred didn’t want to hear it. Two thousand people. Because we had a thousand kids on each—a thousand boys and a thousand girls. And I think all of us were together that day.

Lewis: [00:32:04] Could you talk about if there were ways that your status in the school changed? I guess everybody must have known you after that. [laughs]

Samuels: Yes, they did, [laughter] though I don’t know if it was good or bad! [Laughs] They knew I would speak out on certain issues, you know, especially if there was—racial issues. But I don’t know if they would say it was—as I said, if I was good or bad. But… You know, it is—it was what it was. And coming from the family I came from—it was my grandfather with his knowledge of Black history and everything else—I mean, I was comfortable with me.

Samuels: [00:32:45] And the interesting point about it, I had so many white friends because I used to come from Harlem and have to get a special bus at 205th Street, to get to the school. They had like, maybe I think, two buses that left in the morning from that spot that took us directly to Spellman. And then, in the evening, there were certain buses that left, that took us directly back to 205 Street, because that’s where the D train—the last stop. And because you’re on that bus, you make friends. I think I might have been the only Black kid on that bus. I think I was the only one. I can’t say I was the only one from Harlem, but I think I was the only one on that bus, that went to the school.

So, you know, I had a bunch of white friends, who—I would say the majority were supportive of me with Martin Luther King Day. That was not a hassle. And probably some on that bus that weren’t—but I never got harassed. I can say, maybe because it was a Catholic school, and they knew what would go down if the priests or the sisters [laughs] heard about it. I don’t know, but—it would be hard for me to say that, you know, I ever had a terrorizing type of bus ride to school, or home. In fact, I got to meet folks’ families and stuff like that, so—and they got to meet mine, so—but that was my close—I would say it was probably about maybe eight or nine of us, or maybe ten of us, that was a, like a node of friends, and that was it.

Samuels: [00:34:52] But, yeah, high school was interesting—got good grades all the time and, you know, ended up at Columbia Pharmacy… Which doesn’t exist now—they’re trying to bring it back. Politics is why the school went down. But it was—educationally excellent to the end when they closed the school. We had some of the best professors. We did well on our exams. They just closed it because they said something about—financial—or something or the other… Columbia—can you believe that? And we said, “Well, why don’t you incorporate us into the medical school?” So that—because we were starting to graduate Pharm-Ds. Pharm-Ds are pharmacists that actually get up on the floor and work with patients, go through the charts, doublecheck on the drugs, all this other stuff. It’s a specially trained pharmacist.

Samuels: [00:35:52] Pharmacy, at that time, and I think still is, five years. There were a few schools in the country that were four years but most of them were five years. The Pharm-D worked another year or two. And we didn’t want to see the school close because—not only because we graduated from it. We weren’t worried about our degrees, because as long as you get a Columbia degree, you’re going to have that ‘til the day, you know, you die. Even if you kill people, you’ll still have your degree, [laughs] you know? That’s just how it goes with colleges. You know, it’s just how it goes with colleges. But… They didn’t—for some reason, they would not allow the school to continue. Now they want to start talking about creating another pharmacy school, which doesn’t make any sense because… I would support it! I definitely think it’s a great career, particularly if you’re in the hospital.

Samuels: [00:36:51] I don’t like what pharmacists are doing now because they don’t get to really interact with the patient the way I feel they should. In the old days, you knew—you were like the pharmacist of the block. The community knew you; you knew them. If a kid came to you with a problem, “I have a cold, Mommy says, you know, I need some cough medicine.” You made it up, yourself! You didn’t tell him go to the counter and get X, Y, Z medication. You made up a little bottle of it yourself and you didn’t charge anything crazy, and you gave it to them. Things have changed now. Now you go to the pharmacy and if you get to talk to the pharmacist—I mean, you’re lucky, [laughs] you know? Or you have to demand to talk to the pharmacist, or whatever. It’s not like the old days. So, I’m not that pleased with, you know, what’s going on now. It’s just crazy, but… That’s where I went after high school.

Lewis: [00:37:49] And so, what was your experience like at Columbia?

Samuels: It was five years. There were other Black students there, and most of it was fine. Every now and then, a little racial thing would pop up but most of it was fine. One time, I picked up my paper, a paper that I had graded by the teacher, and I got a ninety-six. And I forget if that was a class where we have to mix up stuff, or if it was something to do with medications and just knowing about medications. And somebody had written the word N-I-G-R on it. So, of course, I’m a smart aleck, right? [Smiles] So, I get up and I said, “Okay.” I picked up my paper with a ninety-six, “And one of you wrote N-I-G-R—which lets me know, you know, basically how ignorant you are because N-I-G-G-E-R—so, [laughs] next time, you need to get it correct.” And then I sat down and there was silence in the room because they really thought I was just going to go [laughs]—you know… “No, no, no, your spelling’s bad, you know?” So, [laughs] that was that. I really didn’t get involved in too much more, because I just confronted it, so that ended that.

Lewis: [00:39:30] And did you live at home when you went to school there?

Samuels: Yes. Because you know, Columbia’s in the city, I’m in the city. It didn’t make sense, particularly when you’re in a poor household, to go live on campus unless they’re giving you the space and the room. So, I just went to school. And that’s one beauty of having a school like Columbia in your community because it is an excellent school, and it was right here. I didn’t have to go out of state. That’s a positive. The negative is you don’t go out of state, and you don’t develop maybe some of the skills that you would normally develop living away from home. Because you have to develop survival skills, I think, more when you’re not at home and you’re not a rich student. You have to learn how to budget more. You have to learn how to survive more. How to make your meals more—how to… You know if you don’t have a meal plan. In those days, some people did, some people didn’t. I think more now, the kids have meal plans that are a little more affordable given what the economics are of today. So… It was different then.

Samuels: [00:40:54] So, I didn’t mind being in the city, because I think it helped my parents in terms of money issues, you know? All they had to do was worry about tuition to a certain degree, not tuition and room and board and all of that. And the books were—as you know, college books in those days were expensive and they’re expensive now. So, if you look at the economics now—a friend of mine was telling me she was helping her sister buy books for her niece and she told me a book was three hundred dollars. I said, “You have got to be kidding.” But that shows how out of it [laughs] I am out of the loop, you know? I mean, seventy, eighty dollars was a lot of money for us. I mean, that was outrageous money for us. But three hundred dollars for a book? My God, it’s just—so, anyway, I didn’t have to go away.

Lewis: [00:41:56] And, was that a career that you made for yourself? As a pharmacist D?

Samuels: Kind of, for a while. But from that, I went on to medical school. And again, it was interesting because I was in the city, but I stayed out at school because I was in Brooklyn and to have to keep coming back to Manhattan, with the rigors of medical school was just too much. So, I stayed out in the dorm there.

Samuels: [00:42:37] That proved to be an interesting experience, too, because—I always end up at these times in history, you know, when things are just kind of changing. In our class, we had exactly twenty-five percent women and exactly ten percent Blacks. Exactly. I mean, I don’t know how they worked it out. They may have double counted the women, but that was a time when people were complaining—at the time, women weren’t being allowed to go to medical school, blah-blah-blah. So, they took exactly twenty-five percent of us. And, as I said, exactly ten percent of Blacks. That proved to be an interesting experience, whereas if the Blacks were in a line, taking an exam, the white professors would stand at the end of the aisles—of just the Black students… As if we were going to cheat. Whereas everybody else in there was cheating! Or many of them were cheating. It wasn’t us.

Samuels: [00:43:50] Then, if we got low grades, they said—they inferred that it was because we were Black, right? Well… They started to change the exams because some of the students—not us—had exams all the way back into the 1800s. And, you know, some of the questions repeat. So, they would be going through those old questions and whatnot. We did not have access to any of that. But when they changed the tests, guess who was at the bottom of the curve? It wasn’t us, okay? [Laughs] And that caused [laughter]—so then, things got a little different. Things got a little different, because all of a sudden, we weren’t the dumb ones.

Samuels: [00:44:50] How did this happen? You know, [laughs] how did this happen? I learned how—what they call legacy admissions—that’s why, when they were talking about Kavanaugh, with the Supreme Court thing, and he was saying, “I worked hard to get into Harvard! I did…” And then you found out Grandpa was—you know—had already gone to Harvard. With these legacy admissions—for example, somehow, I got on the admissions… They were putting students with some of the people who were doing admissions, at the college. Somehow, I got involved in that. I can’t even remember how because I’m trying to pull some of this stuff from memory… I go and I sit with this guy who’s doing the admissions. I see white students coming in with B average. Now, understand, when I went in there, I went in there cum laude from Columbia [smiles] with a pharmacy degree, okay? These people are coming in with Bs. One girl started crying during the interview because both of her parents were doctors and she had B average, lower B. This man says to me, he’s going to recommend for her to come into medical school because both of her parents were doctors who had graduated from the same medical school. I’m not going to call the name; just the same medical school and it’s in New York. I was like—wow. And it happened a couple of other times while I was sitting there. You could tell he was trying to get rid of me because it was like, “What I would suggest—you just, you know, I would suggest you go and study…” And so-and-so and blah-blah.

Samuels: [00:46:55] But I couldn’t… I had to see this! My mind was blown! How many Black students get in as legacy admissions? They have no legacy! They’re the first ones in their family, [laughs] you know? They’re getting in on their own—abilities. But it was amazing. So, that’s when I learned that, you know, a lot of these folks that are profiling, or many of them that are profiling, are people who got connected into the school.

Samuels: [00:47:35] So, you know, it’s—and I could have probably ended up at Harvard. My medical school, I learned a lot, right? I think, when you’re going to be a doctor, yeah, it’s nice to go to some of the Ivy League places but it really depends on you and your interest and how involved you get into your studies and what specialty you want to go into because what I had done—and I tell all students now who want to go into whatever profession, “Have faith in yourself and go ahead and apply, because you don’t know what’ll happen.” Because I didn’t have enough faith in myself, I applied to Harvard late. And the guy who interviewed me was so upset with me because they ended up putting me on the waiting list, for the medical school and they would’ve accepted me had I originally just gone ahead and applied. But I didn’t feel like—for me—I was Harvard material. So, when the kids come to me and they talk about, [imitating them] “Oh, you know, the counselors told me not to apply here and… ” “Yes, all they can do is tell you no. It won’t kill you. Go ahead and apply. There may be something about you that the interviewer sees that they want to bring to the school.”

Lewis: They’re lucky to have you telling them that.

Samuels: [00:49:07] You know, because after that… And I might have had different life experiences because of it. I might have met different people. When I went to Howard to train for residency, I got to meet people there I would never have met anywhere else, because it was a Black school. So, I got to make connections there and talk to people there and learn from people there. I would not have had an opportunity to have done anywhere else. And I had a few places I could’ve gone for training, and I chose there, you know? And everybody’s like, “Oh, Howard, you know, it’s a Black school, you know?” Yeah, but—the patient population was the population I wanted to learn on and the people who instructed me were the people who taught me how to work with that population.

Lewis: Talk about that population and what your interest was.

Samuels: [00:50:01] My interest was pulmonary medicine and ICU. But I also like working with elders, which can get you into trouble because in those days, when I was working with them—because you have some people who, first of all, don’t like elderly people and, second of all, feel that you shouldn’t work but so hard on elderly people. Oh, yeah! And you’d be surprised at some of the people who feel that way… And I used to get into a whole lot of stuff because these people—they had gotten into this thing where, you know, they basically started feeling godlike and I said, “Look, we’re doctors, we’re not gods. We’re just lucky enough to be able to learn this stuff so that we can help people. But we are not gods, so we need to stop that.”

Samuels: [00:51:00] But some people didn’t like that, [laughs] you know? They wanted to feel godlike… If a senior citizen comes into the hospital, they came because they want to leave alive. They didn’t come because they wanted you to judge, you know, whether they should live or not. That’s how I feel about it. Plus, most of those people coming in that way look like me! So, you’re telling me that I’m supposed to just make a decision about their life because, yeah, they’re on a ventilator—but aren’t we doctors? Aren’t we supposed to treat them to get them off the ventilator and get them home? Is that what we’re supposed to do? Or are we supposed to say, [imitates voice] “Oh, they’re eighty-nine, and they look a little weak, and they’re on a ventilator, and I don’t think I can get them off this ventilator. So, we’ll talk to the family, and we’ll say, you know, like, “Not too much we can do”, and try to talk the family into a no-code.

Samuels: [00:52:20] Now, here is where—as I said to you—there are groups of people, or some people, who want to be the people that white folks come to, when they want something done. And some white folks feel more comfortable going to these people, because they know they can get done what they want. So, what they do is elevate these people, and basically designate them as the ones to come to you. And if you don’t want to listen, they are the ones that are supposed to do something to you, negatively, so that the folks who had originally sent them can keep their hands off of it and say, “Well, we didn’t do it.” You know—so-and-so went to talk to her or went to talk to him and, you know, they just won’t listen and, blah-blah-blah. So, I had a big hoo-ha-ha about all of that, because I refused to pull the plug when I did not feel the plug should be pulled. And I just believe—no, I didn’t believe in doing things to people endlessly—and seeing them in pain while I was doing it to them. But I truly did believe that we weren’t supposed to—if somebody’s on a cliff, give them the push. That was my frame of mind. I didn’t believe in the push. And then to behave like, you know, I really had to do it because they were using too much, you know, oxygen or utilizing too much from the hospital.

Samuels: [00:54:03] And I’m concerned because some of our politicians have gone along with that in order to save money. See, to me, how can you save money denying people medical care and then have a CEO of a healthcare company pay themselves multi-millions of dollars? And then denying care to people? Something is really wrong with that. Which is, I guess, what makes me feel that… Medically-wise, when I look at politicians, I guess I gear myself more for Medicare for All, because it takes care of everybody versus some of these other systems that are out here—that I find confusing and can’t understand what they’re doing or where they’re from. And everybody’s friendly to take your money up front but as you get older, what’s going to happen? And I don’t see clarity in that. And I think it should be very clear what they’re going to be doing when you’re getting older and maybe you can’t speak for yourself. Even if you make up a will and say, “Do everything you can to keep me alive.” What are they going to do?

Samuels: [00:55:30] So, I just think it’s a scary thing, that people are not paying attention to… And I think it’s a scary thing when you have all these senior citizens out on the street, scared to go into the shelters because they’re beating them up, raping them, killing them, treating them like dirt. Is that what it means to become elderly in the United States of America—that you don’t even know if you’ll still have your home?

Samuels: [00:56:07] Or somebody’ll come in and say, “This is too much home for you” you know? [laughs] “This is too much for you. We need to downgrade you.” Which is what’s happening—well, partially in public housing, where you have maybe a senior with four or five bedrooms, because their kids have all left. Then, they want to take him and put him out in Queens. I’m not knocking Queens. [Smiles] I’m just saying, if you’ve grown up in Manhattan—you go by numbers and letters. You know how to get around. If you grew up in Queens all your life, you probably know how to get around. But to take somebody from Manhattan and put them in Queens or in Brooklyn where everything is a name? [Laughs] Just like, “Hey. We’re giving you a studio apartment, that’s very small. You don’t even have a full kitchen. And a little half a bathroom… And you should be glad because you have something, you know, over your head. But we got you out of Manhattan. Now we can put somebody in that apartment you had for four thousand dollars.” This is what’s happening to us now. And it doesn’t seem to be anybody at the barn door that says, “Stop”. We have no politician, or group of politicians saying stop. Everybody’s talking how bad it is, it’s a shame. But where is the real effort to put a stop to it…

Samuels: [00:57:49] I lost my mother’s apartment. Well, I didn’t really lose it. We kept talking. She was in NYCHA, I was in NYCHA with her. We kept talking to the—what do they call them again? The person that monitors that particular building.

Lewis: The TA? The Tenant Association person?

Samuels: Tenant person, the—not—they don’t call them TA’s. They call them… I can’t recall the name now. But each building or two buildings, depending on how many people are in the buildings—one person is assigned. We kept going to her, saying—my mother kept saying, “I want to put my daughter on the lease. I want to put my daughter on the lease.” And she kept saying, “Oh, you’re not working, you’re not this, you’re not that. You can’t be put on the lease.” Which is absolutely a lie! So, when my mother passed, I wasn’t on the lease! And this woman’s saying, “My mother never asked—to be put on the lease!”

Samuels: [00:58:48] The paper to do it… First of all, we didn’t even know there was such a thing as a social worker in public housing. We were never referred to a social worker. And I understand from talking to other people, that the social workers are only concerned about—can you pay. If you can’t pay, then they get involved. But they don’t really get involved in making sure that your paperwork is straight, or whatnot. People being placed out of public housing, because of succession rights, is a big problem. If you go down to the courts, you will see a list of people who are fighting succession, issues relating to succession. Not one politician has addressed this issue.

Samuels: [00:59:37] So, what happens is—homelessness is created. It’s created, by the city itself! So, you have people who get put out by the city, paying maybe five, six-hundred-dollar rent—to put you somewhere where you’re in a room with four other people and they’re willing to pay two thousand dollars a month for you. So that person—whoever’s running that boarding house or whatever—gets paid eight thousand dollars. You don’t have your own bathroom or your own place to wash up. And senior citizens are getting beaten up all the time—in these places. I was lucky. I never bounced [laughs] in the street. I was just very lucky. But a lot of seniors are not… And—why would you create homelessness? I mean, this is the craziest thing to me. Why would you create it, and pay all this money, when you can just keep people wherever they are for six hundred dollars a month? Who are you making this money for? And all the agony and pain that goes along with that… So, you know, I don’t understand that. As I said, I’ve been very lucky. I haven’t had to, you know, bounce in the street. But I have talked to seniors, and I want to scream when I hear the stories. And you just told me about Jean? That’s disgusting.
 
Lewis: Eighty.

Samuels: [01:01:32] That’s disgusting! How does this happen? And he’s been out there, like I said, way too long not to have a place. You know, they’re telling people, [imitates voice] “Oh, you just go into the shelters, and you’ll be there only a few months, and you’ll have housing.” People are in there for four years!

Lewis: Yes, or more.

Samuels: [01:01:54] Or more! No housing! How can this happen? This does not make sense. The mayor’s…And then, there were people—or even at the City Council who said, “Look, we really need to increase this percentage, because this five percent you’re talking about is way too little.” I think it’s five percent.

Lewis: Could you explain what the five percent is?

Samuels: [01:02:15] It’s—if you have, let’s say, a hundred apartments, five percent are supposed to be affordable, [laughs] whatever that means. Whatever that means. Because the meaning moves around, along with the amount in terms of what is affordable. So… You have a hundred apartments. Maybe five to twenty of them will be deemed affordable… The rest are market rate! Now, if you’re in a community where people are making only twenty-five thousand dollars a year—those eighty apartments—not for that community. And the community needs the apartments! So, who are they for?

Samuels: [01:03:10] And then—I don’t know if you saw a recent article—a lady who—I think she, like, cleans houses or something like that, was put in one of these apartments, so-called, quote, affordable apartments and was bringing out the fact that they are treated completely differently, than the people who are put in the market rate apartments. She had, I think, a pipe that broke in her apartment and they put her in an apartment with no heat—and she has a kid—no heat, a whole lot of other problems in the apartment they put her in—and were dragging their feet on repairing her apartment. So, she had to end up—I don’t know if it was City Limits or some—one of the other newspapers and just blow it up before they would come and do, you know, anything to start to get her apartment. We’re talking about months she’s in this other place. And now it’s getting cold, and she has no heat. So, because… And then, they made smart remarks about her being in the quote-unquote affordable apartment compared to the people who were in market rate. And that’s when it all hit the fan.

Samuels: [01:04:35] But the point is, there’s really no policing—regarding these apartments. There’s no controls. There’s nobody watching… So, you’re talking about affordable apartments, but you’re really joking because [laughs] it might seem like it’s affordable but if you have a problem with it, you can’t get anything—it’s like being with the old landlord, [laughs] you know? It’s a wonder they don’t come in and bust up the bathroom… [Laughs] Never repair it so you have to move, you know? That’s what they do—in many of these other buildings when they’re harassing the tenants. They come in and bust up something in the house that you need to live, either in your kitchen or the bathrooms, usually. And usually, they leave a hole in the bathroom so that, you know, you can’t even go in there and dress or wash up or do anything—or use it. And it’s almost like forcing you to leave instead of repairing it. And apparently, the city building inspectors don’t do anything to assist in that either! Because how can you leave a bathroom looking like that for six months? And there’s no penalty! And the renter gets nothing back for all of that pain and agony!

Samuels: [01:05:56] So, it was a similar type of thing for this lady! And I had not really—I had heard some people kind of talking about it, but this is the first time I actually saw it in print—very descriptive—as to how they were treating the tenants who were getting these quote-unquote affordable apartments. I remember they would—used to say… The people who were moving into these affordable apartments—if the people in the market rate had certain type of—what do they call—faucets, and lights—the poorer apartments never got that. They got much cheaper faucets and lighting and all this kind of stuff. They cut the cost in those apartments and that’s not what’s supposed to be happening.

Lewis: Then, they get blamed when the stuff breaks.

Samuels: [01:06:49] Yeah! [Laughter] So, you know, what can I tell you? So, I just have a whole different frame of mind when it related to senior citizens and what should be done. And my elders would live and make it out of the hospital, most of them. If you want to die at home, you die at home. But then, the good Lord is making that decision. I’m [laughs] not making that decision. My thing is to get you better and get you out.

Lewis: [01:07:22] When you finished at Howard, where did you practice?

Samuels: I practiced in Washington.

Lewis: D.C.?

Samuels: I was in D.C. That’s part of the reason why I understand the politics. When I look at political shows and they talk about the District of Columbia—which is why I loved House of Cards. It wasn’t exactly what went on, but it was very close—to the level of backstabbing and stuff that goes on in Washington. Oops, sorry.

Lewis: It’s okay.

Samuels: [01:07:49] In Washington. And other stories that I see about Washington—watching this president, you know? I know how these things go on down there in the sense of… You know, just politics, how politics affect this country. That’s why, when I see these folks listening to Trump and all this kind of stuff, it’s like, if you only really understood how these things play out. It’s not the way you think that they play out. [Laughs] It’s so much going on behind the scenes—that you know nothing about! How these people deal with each other and talk to each other—and who’s sleeping with who, and who’s not sleeping with who. It’s just… It can make you crazy. You have to kind of—disconnect yourself from all of it. It’s just crazy down there. But I remember you do see this—famous people. I remember I would be sitting with my mom and there’s a bagel place nearby the Capitol and you see John McCain, running in and out. There was a building they used to have meetings in, and you would see John McCain running in and out and other senators running in and out of the buildings and whatnot. And if you go down to Pennsylvania Avenue, you never know who you were going to see walking down the street.

Lewis: [01:09:21] What was your life like in DC?

Samuels: It was interesting. I mean, you know, taking care of patients and whatnot. So, I—I enjoyed that, particularly elderly. I kind of geared a lot of my practice towards taking care of elderly. I could take care of anybody, except for very, very young kids because I wasn’t… After—I think I would go down to, like, eighteen. But what people don’t understand is that pediatrics goes all the way to twenty-one. But I would take care of kids down to eighteen, depending on what it was. There are certain conditions that kids have that—I believe doctors who take care of adults might have a feel for—but in terms of comfortably being able to treat it and manage it, you might feel a little uncomfortable about it. So, certain problems I could address but most of my people were older—folks. And, you know, you just take care of people. That’s what you’re there for.

Lewis: [01:10:30] And your mom used to go visit you, sounds like?

Samuels: Yes, yes.

Lewis: Do you have a nice story, a nice memory of your mom coming to see you in DC?

Samuels: It’s hard to say because we had a good time—whenever she came down. And my grandmother came down and stayed with me for a while one time. That was a lot of fun. I’d come home and she’d have chicken wings cooked, you know, stuff like that, which was nice because after you work and you don’t have anybody doing that for you, when you have someone doing that, it’s very nice… And Mom would come down. Grandpa would come down from time to time. We used to have a lot of fun once he got down there. Mom would come down. And I had a dog, too, and it was a Dobie. And we used to laugh because he was cool when I had them down there. He fell in love with my grandmother. Nobody could bother her or come too close [laughs] as far as she was concerned. He really fell in love with her, and he would jump in the bed with her, and stay at the bottom. And as my grandmother got sicker, we got like a hospital bed, and he would stay in the hospital bed with her. Like, he’d just stay at the bottom, at the foot and she would look down and say, “Brick, Brick!” You know, and he would look up at her… So, he would watch over her. He used to like to mess with my grandfather. [Smiles] I guess it was two guys in the house, him, and her, so—I mean, him and my grandfather. So, they used to mess with each other more.

Samuels: [01:12:17] But, he loved my mother—absolutely—and she would be gone, and he would keep an eye on Grandma and Grandpa. When my mother came down, oh my God. [Laughs] He would go berserk. I would take him in the car with me, because a lot of times she would take Amtrak down, or the Greyhound. As soon as he saw my mother, I’d have to put her in the back of the car. She couldn’t sit up front with me because he used to turn it out. And she would say to him, “What did they do to you, Brick? [Laughs] They treating you good?” And he would… [dog sounds] I said, “Man, you need to stop complaining back there!” [Smiles]

Samuels: [01:13:05] We used to have so much fun. And she would tell me—which was true—that when she left, she never worried about me because she knew he was in the house. And somebody did try to get in the house one time. The alarm went off. By the time I got upstairs, he was sitting by the window, waiting for whoever it was. [Laughs] So, I think that was my happiest time, because all of us would be together periodically. And I had what I had wanted because I always wanted a dog. And he lived for about seven years. I got him when he was a puppy. And… That’s an experience. I know some people don’t like pets, but I think that that is an experience, to have a dog from the time you’re a puppy and learn how to train them, and to raise them. Because I tell you when he died, my mother and I were crying, you would think it was a child that had passed. The two of us were weeping so hard [laughs] because he had become such a part of the family! So… You know, the family just missed him. And Grandma was like, “Where’s Brick? Where’s Brick?” I said, “He’s gone… What can I tell you?” But—

Lewis: You were in your thirties then?

Samuels: [01:14:29] No, I was—probably—forties. Forties, heading towards fifty, at that time. But—that was—having the whole family with me down there from time to time, that was a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun when we were together. As I said, there were times, yes, folks would fuss with each other and whatnot. But I can’t say that that overweighed most of the time that we were together. If Mom and I were fussing about something, Grandma would step into the room. And this is why I feel that—you know, that’s one of the things I think we’re losing in our community now, because we had so much respect for our elders. My grandmother would come into the room and she would say, “Now, if you girls don’t behave, I’m going to leave.” [Laughs] And everybody’d get quiet [laughs] because they didn’t want Grandma or Mom to leave, you know? She would go, “Now, you all have to behave now, or I’m going to leave.” And that would quiet everybody. I don’t know if you get that nowadays. I guess you do in certain families. But, you know, that’s how we were.

Lewis: [01:15:43] And what brought you back to New York?

Samuels: Oh, a whole lot of stuff. Craziness in Washington, and I just decided to come home. I probably should have come home to begin with, because Washington—you have to have a certain personality to stay down in Washington, [laughs] you really do. New York personalities, I don’t think do well in Washington. New Yorkers are a certain kind of person. I’m not saying we’re perfect people. It’s just that we’re different—in terms of how we view things and deal with people—more realistically. A lot of backstabbing underneath… It’s like a part of the town! That’s why I was saying if you’re down there—when I see certain movies and things, sometimes I just sit and just nod my head like this, because it tells me whoever wrote the story knows and understands Washington. A lot of backstabbers—and some people like that kind of life. I didn’t [laughs] you know? Backstabbers, I’m not interested in that. I’m going to take care of my patients without all this crap. And it was just too much, just too much going on.

Samuels: [01:16:53] So, I came home. And I was happy to be home. It was a relief to be home. And my grandmother and my grandfather had passed by then, so it was only Mom and I. And Bricky had passed so, Mom and I were here. And we did everything together. I was with her as she got sicker and sicker, you know…. So, when she passed, it was hard on me—because we were really friends too, you know? Not just mother and daughter… And you miss that person who’s not there to talk to you anymore. Because I really feel—and it’s not everybody who feels this way. That’s why I don’t—as I was saying, I don’t try to talk too much about my family with people because I don’t know what kinds of experiences other people have had with their families and it can be annoying, depending on what someone else has gone through. But, as I said, my mom and I—were friends. We could talk about almost everything. We could sit and laugh at the TV, and whatnot, and we just—as I grew more to be an adult, we dealt with each other more as adults, you know? And so, not having that person there that you could really talk with, is really rough. So, you know, you just have to adjust. It’s life.

Lewis: [01:18:40] And how long was the process with the apartment for them to remove you?

Samuels: It was about maybe four or five years. I tried to get help. I tried to get help everywhere—and I could not get help. And then the politicians weren’t helpful, because I was in their behind about issues relating to housing and homelessness, and stuff they weren’t doing. So, I wasn’t going to get any help there. And that’s part of my problem with how this thing goes down. People shouldn’t even be—particularly when it comes to public housing—having succession problems or being put out. I told them, I said, “Look, why is it that the paper you’re supposed to fill out to address succession, you can’t even download it from their website?” They’re always telling you go to their website, download this and that. But that document, you have to get from the quote-unquote [laughs] TA person and if they’re too lazy to get off their behind and go and get it—you never get it, or you never find out. They don’t post that there are social workers. I created a document saying these things need to be done, which you can download from—you know, I put it on that site, SuccessioninNYCHA dot blogspot dot com. I tell people, download it and that the city should be doing this. None of the politicians are addressing that.

Lewis: [01:20:13] And that website you made?

Samuels: [01:17:21] Yes.

Lewis: Because of your experience?

Samuels: Right.

Lewis: [01:20:18] So, it was four or five years of battling with NYCHA… And did you get... At that time, were you working with any groups, any grassroots groups?

Samuels: I was with Picture the Homeless, and CVH [Community Voices Heard] and that’s why I cut CVH loose—because I had been doing so much stuff with them. When I went and I said, “Look, I need some assistance with this,” it was like, [imitates voice] “Oh well, go here, go here.” But it was very anemic. And… As far as I’m concerned, they really didn’t do anything to help—didn’t do anything to help, knowing what the situation was. So, I just completely—yeah, I said, “This is just too much for me.” It was stressful, was extremely stressful. The people who came to help with moving and stuff were South Bronx Community Congress, and one person from CVH who also worked with South Bronx, you know… And I’m… But… It was just—really sad and—

Samuels:[01:21:41] as I said, the politicians didn’t do anything. But I didn’t expect too much out of them. You had, Keith Wright supposedly speaking with the guy who was running NYCHA under Bloomberg—who was giving away ten-million-dollar contracts and whatnot… And then, Keith Wright’s coming back to me saying, “Well, they’ll move you out to Queens.” So, my thing is, “Why are you going to move me to Queens? Why not just keep me here?” [Imitates Keith Wright] “Are you willing to go?” Like, they were playing a game. Like, how far could we—you know—versus being put in the street. [Imitates voices] “Are you willing to go there? Are you going here?” All these way-out places, outside of Manhattan! So, you know… But everybody gets whatever payback they get, so that when you’re running for Congress, and you don’t get it—you can’t figure out why people didn’t come out in droves and vote for you… Think about these kinds of things.

Lewis: Where did you end up going?

Samuels: [01:22:45] I went with a friend. So, I never—I never bounced. I was lucky. A lot of people… I’m telling you, when I hear the stories, it’s very sad what’s happening in this city. And I really put it at the foot of the mayor. You know, I’m sure there’s different events and things that culminate… That cause certain problems. But, for eight years you’ve been here, and the situation hasn’t gotten better? What have you not heard?

Samuels: [01:23:21] Then you came up with some crazy, you know… AZQ, MIH or whatever… Which—we knew! PTH knew! Other groups knew that that was worthless! But they got bought off that—during that weekend.

Lewis: Yes.

Samuels: And that was the end of the matter.

Samuels: [01:23:41] Next thing, my Occupy group, went to—what’s the place up in The Bronx again? What’s the name of the place in The Bronx—off of 170-something street… Begins with a C… Well, anyway, it was a group in The Bronx, that—

Lewis: CASA [Community Action for Safe Apartments]?

Samuels: CASA—that some folks had, in my Occupy group, asked me to go to talk to because we wanted to get some information about this—right to an attorney, or what was it?

Lewis: Right to Counsel?

Samuels: [01:24:31] Right to Counsel. And this is my feeling, just my personal feeling. We went up there and we said, “We would like someone from your group come and speak at an event we were having, regarding Right to Counsel.” [Imitates voice] “Oh, yeah!” You know, so and so, so—so on… I had trouble reaching the woman who was in charge, at that time—after that. “Oh, send me email, send me…” So, I sent all the information. She waits till like, two days before the event. She’s not going to be speaking. And I’m like, “Wait a minute? Why didn’t you tell me?” Because, you see, they tried to do this all over the country. So, there’s a guy in Massachusetts who was kind of heading it up. I could’ve called him and asked for someone else in the city to come and speak! Okay? And I eventually did call him and said, “Listen man, I need some help. Can you get me anybody in the city who can come and talk about Right to Counsel?” So, he says, “Well, why don’t you talk to” so-and-so “at CASA?”

I said, “Listen, she was supposed to come and speak. I’ve been in touch with her…I… And now, here’s the last minute, she’s telling me that she can’t come.” And she didn’t even tell me. I think somebody in the organization was like, you know, [laughs] telling me that she couldn’t come. Then she started telling people she had told me this. Absolutely not! I’m not crazy, okay? And if you are telling me this, why can’t you put it in writing? I put what I needed in writing to you. When did we start with all this verbal back and forth? Next thing I heard; she had left CASA for some better waters somewhere else. But I don’t think she ever intended to do it.

Samuels: [01:26:29] They had cut some—I feel—some kind of a deal with the mayor, about them being the people who were in charge of Right to Counsel, and she being the main spokesperson. And it went all down, that’s how it went down. So, that meant we had no one to come and talk to the group about Right to Counsel. Some PTH folks came to that meeting, by the way. And I think somebody led one of the—oh, yeah—who was it that led one of the groups, from PTH or repped PTH, at the event? But I was like, what is this stuff? You know, after a while you just start getting a headache when people have political ambitions that you don’t know about, and you get used in the process!

Samuels: [01:27:26] And, what do you call—Banana—

Lewis: Kelly?

Samuels: Banana Kelly—called them, spoke to someone there. Not the gentleman who has come and spoken at some of our events. It was one of his people. I called her and said, “We’d like to have you come and speak about—” something or the other. “Okay, you know, let me know what it’s about.” So, I send the information. Then I can’t reach you! I’m calling, I’m calling, I’m calling—I can’t reach you. So, now I have to call the main number and the person who answers the main number puts me through to you. So, you’re there all the time, and all these emails I’m sending you, you’re not responding to. So now, you’re telling me, [imitates voice] “I never said I was going to do” so-and-so. “I never said I was going to…” I’m, like, what?! You know, I’m not crazy. A lot of stuff has happened, but I’m not crazy. “So, I know when—last time I spoke with you, what you told me.” “Well, I’m not going to do…” So, I said, you know, maybe this is a learning curve. I need to leave your group… And then, I tried to reach the guy who runs Banana Kelly, and I could never get the phone call through. I could never get the phone call through to talk to him, to ask him what in the world is going on. Because when I met him at a meeting, he told me that this particular person would handle it.

Samuels: [01:28:54] So, when you’re out asking for groups to come and join you and work with you and you come up shaky like that—I’m not going to come out and support you or work with you if you do this last-minute sleight of hand on me—just because you think we’re a small group, and we’re nobody. Yet, we had other groups that did come out and speak and it was a helpful event. In fact, we’re going to be doing it again soon. But the point is that even in the nonprofit world of people who come and call you and beg you to come and march with them and all this other kind of stuff…

Samuels: [01:29:32], when you call them, and you need help… I can never get through to—what’s the other group? It’s a more Latino group...

Lewis: In Harlem?

Samuels: They’re in Harlem, and I think mostly Queens… And they’re very active—Make the Road. I called and called and called. Left messages, sent emails, called and called. “We would like someone to come and speak about housing.” … Could never get anybody. But yet, you’re calling me for events. Why should I feel compelled about coming out and supporting you if I can’t even get a call back?! This is the stuff I don’t understand. And PTH trying to hang in there, working with all the—I’m like, you know… [Laughs] I don’t know how things should be structured or restructured. You have to have allies, but I just really wonder if there needs to be a different building block for the organization, from here on out. Less dependent on allies and more dependent on really just creating its own structure and support—group. Even if it’s not a hundred million people, it’s enough people to be stable and roll on some of these issues.
 
Lewis: Well, you know, as you mentioned that it makes me think about our conversation before the interview about all the sleep-outs we did. And most groups in the city were saying—including all the ones you named—that vacant property wasn’t an issue, and it wasn’t important. And so, we were the only group—we started sleeping out in front of the buildings to draw attention… Because if you don’t have a home and there’s a vacant apartment, it’s important.

Lewis: [01:31:53] And so, I wanted to ask you about how you met Picture the Homeless.

Samuels: I think it was through CVH.

Lewis: And do you remember more or less when, or what was going on?

Samuels: I can’t remember. I don’t think anybody came and spoke at an event that I was at. It was almost like an osmotic type thing. I only remember CVH and PTH… But I was more into CVH at the time, until I saw [laughs] what was going on. Then, I kind of floated over to PTH…

Samuels: [01:32:35] PTH was harder for me—because, at that time, you were in The Bronx. And to get up there, and on time for meetings—because, you know, they didn’t want to give out [metro] cards after, I think, the first half an hour of the meeting. And sometimes, it was grueling for me to get there. I forget what I was doing at the time, but it was hard to get up there for the meetings. And Ryan would have pity on me I guess and give me the card. Because I guess when I came in, I came in looking so crazy. I guess he must have figured, well, she’s—[laughs] really trying to get up here—

Lewis: He had a lot of respect for you.

Samuels: [01:33:16]—for the meetings. It was hard to get up there, though. It was much easier when you guys hit 125, you know—because being in Harlem, you could really get over there— two buses. But in The Bronx—and also because sometimes I would have, like, let’s say limited funds to get up there. I would have to take the bus that went all the way to Fordham Road, and then transfer—on a crosstown. And sometimes, the bus came without a problem and sometimes [laughs] it was, like, well, we’ll get there. [Laughs] You’ve just got to hold on. We’ll get there.  And that’s when I used to—if I couldn’t get to the train in time to get up there, that was a mess, but… I was so glad when you all came down to Harlem, because that building in The Bronx was—something else—but…

Lewis: [01:34:17] So, we were in The Bronx when you first started coming… Well, I’ll tell the story of how I first know about you… [Laughter] Was we were involved with the Coalition to Save Harlem.

Samuels: Okay.

Lewis: So, I first heard your name from Brenda Stokely, who said, “Call Dr. Samuels.” And I think you were already coming to Picture the Homeless. And I called—but when you were coming, everyone called you Ms. Kay—I didn’t know that Ms. Kay was also Dr. Samuels. We were involved with the Coalition to Save Harlem because of the number of people being evicted and becoming homeless. Could you talk a little bit about the Coalition to Save Harlem and—

Samuels: [01:35:08] That was a very good coalition, that really should still be functioning because it brought so many groups together, which I thought was great… And people who were not afraid to get out into the street, or to holler at a politician, which was really needed. People had just given up, I feel—particularly in Harlem—about all the things that were going on around them that were affecting the cultural integrity of the community and the number of us that were still in the community... And unfortunately, it didn’t last, as I would have hoped… But when it was at its height, it was very effective and I do believe the politicians were extremely worried, particularly the way people showed up at City Hall the day they had the hearing about the rezoning.

Lewis: What was that like?

Samuels: [01:36:28] I just wish my community would come out like that more. Inez had people bussed down. She sent buses for certain people to come down—to talk for the rezoning… The rest of us had to get down the best way we could…. People got a chance to go and speak—but the minds were already made up… And… you know—it was really sad to see our own politicians getting ready to really just stab us… And for people who won’t even let you ask them questions in the meeting, to give these big speeches at City Council, regarding “their people” and so-and-so. You just want to scream—[laughs] because… You know, you have to sit there and be calm because they’re the first ones to tell the police to pull you out, you know? You have to sit there calmly but it’s something that just tears at your heart, to hear how these people talk and know that they are the reason why so much of this is happening, and it’s not positive what’s happening, so…

Lewis: [01:38:06] So, what did the rezoning at that time—what was the fight over?

Samuels: We knew with rezoning, that it was going to change the nature of 125th Street. As I said, 125th Street was even praised by—I believe it was Architectural Digest or one of those other types of magazines—as one of the most important open-air places where you can shop in America. And because the buildings are low-standing, no more than about two to four stories, you get a lot of sunlight on the street. It’s a very open, bright street—versus being on, like I said, 86th Street. That’s when everybody got really scared, that you’re going to have condos up and down 125th Street, the community wouldn’t be able to afford to live in any of them, and it would change the whole nature of the street.

Samuels: [01:39:06] And you know, when you change the nature of the street like that, it even affects the commerce that’s taking place in the street, in terms of your—people who are selling from their tables and all that kind of—it would just change the whole nature of the street. Plus, there was the issue with the folks who were selling on the street, in terms of finding a place for them to sell because of the Mart [Mart 125] and all this kind of stuff. All of this played into—this, and, as I said, you had politicians who didn’t want to see that.

Samuels: [01:39:52] Now, they’ve taken the Victoria Theatre, and put this huge-ass building behind it. And they’re trying to say, “Oh, we’re going to have affordable housing in there.” Every time I hear that, my head hurts. That building, as far as I’m concerned, shouldn’t be there. That theater should have been rehabbed. There was a woman developer who had an idea about rehabbing the theater and putting condos behind it, but the theater would be kept intact and rehabbed. The condos would be paying, or help to pay, to maintain the theater and the people who would be like your ushers or whatnot would be able to get paid from a foundation that would be created to maintain the theater and to pay the people who worked there—but big events could be held there. I have been told by several people that they really would like to have something of that size so they could hold certain kinds of events because the Apollo was too small.

Samuels: [01:41:04] And the HCDC, which is the Harlem Development Corp., or the Harlem Community Development Corp., owned that theater. It was owned by the state. Which meant that the development corp. basically owned it, and they gave it away to a developer. Now, that means that all the business that would have been drawn there, will now go up to Washington Heights because of the theater that’s there, which is similar to what the Victoria was. So, that money, as far as I’m concerned, is out of our community, because the people who put the housing there—is it going to take the money out of the community!

Samuels: [01:41:55] And then they left, like, a one hundred person seated theater and another, like, ninety-nine-person theater—I mean like, two different little theaters there… And then, they’re supposed to have all these, supposedly non-profit dance schools, or some crap and I told her, I said, “I’ll never attend any of that. I just would not support any of you. So, whoever else wants to go and support that, they can go ahead and support that.” I just find the whole plan that they did, how they did it was disgusting, and the community board sat there and watched it happen and didn’t do a thing to even intercede, and say, “Wait a minute, let’s see if we can come up with another plan.” [Imitates voice] “Oh, we can’t do anything about it! It’s the state, it’s the state!” But it involves the community, so what are you doing to intercede, here, to help the community?

Samuels: [01:42:47] What benefit is it for us to put this here?! Well, who are you bringing in? Who’s going to afford these apartments? It’s not us—so what benefit is this to us? You talk about business. Business for who? The BID [Business Improvement District]?. It’s not for us! So, you know, I just—what can I tell you? So, those were the things that we were trying to avoid—as far as the Coalition to Save Harlem was concerned.

Samuels: [01:43:26] You know, and then you had some people who sat down and wrote up something—and we have yet to see it. I keep asking for it and we can’t seem to get a copy of what supposedly the deal was that was cut about 125th Street. Well, who wrote it? One person who I heard wrote it, or was in it, is one of the people I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw her. So, you know, just hearing that she was writing it, made me nervous just to hear that, along with some other people. Who were these people? Who wrote it and where’s the document? What plan are they following?

Lewis: [01:44:04] So, when this was going on, were you still struggling to stay in the apartment, or you had already been removed from the apartment?

Samuels: I think Mom was still alive when some of that was going on. I think she was still alive when some of that was going on.

Lewis: And you were working?

Samuels: At that time, I was really just taking care of her. She’d gotten very sick at that point. Oh, boy. [Sighs deeply]

Lewis: [01:44:38] So, you’re involved with Occupy, you were involved with the Coalition to Save Harlem, CVH. You came to Picture the Homeless. You would take two buses to go to the office in The Bronx. So, very active in the community. And one of the things that I think is really, you know, that’s really powerful about you, Ms. Kay, is that you link preservation of culture with housing and with businesses that—you know, you don’t separate these things, right?

Samuels: Well, they make up a community. When I was growing up, just about every business that was on Eighth Avenue, which was the avenue I guess I was closest with, were Black businesses. I mean, I remember we used to go get sausage from the sausage guy, and he’d give you a piece of bread this big with the sausage in it and then he had the special thing that he put on top of it, you know? And then, you got one or two of those and you took them home because you didn’t feel like cooking that night or whatnot. And then, he disappeared! I don’t know what happened! You had actual butchers that—you went into their store, and you told them how you wanted your meat and stuff. Now I got to go all the way down to 110th Street, to get the meat that I want. But you had butchers, you had grocery stores—little ones. Well, we had an A&P, up by us, in North Harlem. The guy that I used to buy the lettuce from for my guinea pig was right on the corner, on 149th Street. And, believe it or not, lettuce was twenty-five cents. Twenty-five cents, can you imagine?

Samuels: [01:46:38] I would go down there—my guinea pig was Mickey—and buy Mickey her lettuce so she could eat it. I don’t know if you know anything about guinea pigs, but they actually can take food—like, they wash their face, like a human. They wash their face periodically from water, the water bowl, they’ll wash their face. And they can put the food in their hands, they can hold it—and they can eat their lettuce and other things, you know, on their own. So, I could give her a piece of lettuce, she would have her lettuce for the day. And she got so that—it used to be interesting—my grandfather would get up in the morning—first of all, she would get everybody up in the morning. She knew what time it was that everybody had to get up. So, she would start oinking at a certain point because they oink like pigs. So, she would start oinking at a certain time to let everybody know they had to get up. So, everybody knew they had to get up. Then, we would feed her. Well, she got so good, she knew the lettuce came out of the Frigidaire. So, then she would hop [laughs] into—and we said, “Mickey, get out of the Frigidaire!” She would try to hop into the Frigidaire to grab her lettuce, and then, you know, she would just go off and do her thing.

But they’re very smart. They’re very smart. I had to eventually, unfortunately have to take her to the ASPCA to give her up. But… That was a hard thing to do because when we put her in the cage with the other guinea pigs, she didn’t even know who they were or what they were. She just stood by herself, because she had been around humans from the time she was little. That’s how she had come into the house and she had run of the house, you know? So, that was a hard thing to do but we had to do that for her because she and some of the bugs in the house started getting into a thing and we did not want her to get bitten. So, we had to take her somewhere where she would be safe. But I don’t—I have learned, unfortunately, that I don’t trust [laughs] the ASPCA. Because I think they—even though they claim they don’t, they—a little hurriedly—get rid of some of the animals.

Samuels: [01:49:04] And they will tell you—like, if you bring a dog in there, which I have done—because somebody let a dog out in the street. It was a puppy. It was a pit bull puppy. And we didn’t know this piece of history until we had given him up. And we renamed him Powder. So, we’re walking in the street—and this used to happen to my mother and I all the time—the cats and the dogs would start to follow us. I don’t know what it was, but they would [laughs] follow us, right? So, we’re walking on the street and this little beige dog starts following us. So, we’re like, whose dog is he? And everybody claims, like, they don’t know where the puppy came from. So, we’re asking everybody, “Whose puppy is this?”  Nobody’s saying. So, we kept walking, and we stayed out in the street for a little while, because we assumed somebody was going to come by looking for this puppy. Nobody showed up. We were out there for about an hour. So, we took the puppy upstairs and named him Powder, at least for the evening. Put him in the bathroom. When we went in the bathroom, we put him in a box. We got a box for him and put him in a box and put him in the bathroom. By the time we checked on him in the morning, he already had taken the towel and pulled it down into the box with him. [Smiles] So, he was comfy, all night. He had no problems. When we went back downstairs with him to walk him the next day, we’re still asking people, “Who is this puppy? Does anybody know anything?” So, one of the guys said, “Ma’am, they went and locked his owner up.” [Laughs] So, nobody took this puppy! They were leaving the puppy in the street, knowing that the owner was locked up. Nobody would take care of the puppy. So, we took the puppy. And apparently, something must have happened to him because he—the father or the owner never came out, or we never got to know who he was or meet him. We asked every day, you know, who the father—so, whatever it was, it was deep, and nobody really wanted to talk other than that fellah to tell us that the owner was locked up. So, we had him for about seven days, and then we said, “Okay, we’ll take him to the ASPCA.” And what we did, we took him, and we said, “If no one comes for him—how long can you keep him without putting him to sleep?” “Oh, it’d be a week or so.”

Samuels: [01:51:43] We said, “If no one comes for him in four days, we will come back, and we’ll take him.” By the second or third day, they had already killed the dog. I never trusted the ASPCA after that ever again. And I said to my mother—now this is—[laughs] we’re all grown, right? Now, I just turned to my mother, I said, “You know, I wonder if they did Mickey like this? You know, just put her to sleep and we didn’t know anything about it.” Because they’re telling you X amount of days but… Or they’re telling you, “No, we don’t kill the guinea pigs and, you know, we give the guinea pigs away,” Because they’re little. They’re easier to give—I think—to get rid of or give to somebody. We don’t know if they’re ever telling you the truth. So, the dog was dead, and after that, I have never trusted the ASPCA, ever. I don’t care what they put on TV, I don’t care how much money they ask you for, I will never trust them again, after that. So, that’s my dog story.

Lewis: Well, I want to bring us back a little bit to—

Samuels: Okay.

Lewis: —to your work that—I know we got to Mickey through the lettuce, through—

Samuels: Right.

Lewis: [01:53:00] —where you got the lettuce…. And during all the years that you’ve been working with Picture the Homeless, which is many years by now, what are some of the things that really stand out in your mind as why Picture the Homeless is important?

Samuels: Because of its doggedness—unlike the other groups. And I was extremely impressed with the fact of how Picture the Homeless stayed with their opinion on MIH, and ZQE, I think it is, or QZ—yes, ZQE… Because the other groups sold out… You know, they just sold out. They just—whatever the mayor gave them, they took that. I remember getting something from Community Voices Heard to try to explain why they—pulled out. And I’m telling you, it was the most torturous email I have ever read in my life. You know, when somebody’s trying to explain something that doesn’t make sense? That’s what I felt I was reading, in this email and it just went on and on and on and I’m like, man, this is the craziest email I have ever read—to explain the unexplainable. I mean, it was just torture to read it! I couldn’t understand what they were trying to say! They were trying to explain why they pulled out, but there was really no explanation. Something they got offered—that they pulled out. Something that… CASA got that they pulled out… And the other one—VOCAL. I mean, I don’t know what they got, but whatever they got, they decided to just drop out of the coalition—which weakened the coalition. I think they were winning! I really think that they were making a stance that City Hall could not—walk around or run around. What did they do? They just sold out, and that killed it. So, now we have MIH and AZQ—that’s what it is… And what are we getting out—now everybody’s complaining about it. But we knew it was bad!

Samuels: [01:55:55] My whole thing is that housing—in New York City and probably in California and some other places—is a public health emergency. And that is how it needs to be seen to really be addressed properly. This is a public health emergency. There is no reason to have all of this expensive housing, all over the city and it not being used, people just investing in it and staying over in Europe or wherever, hiding their money or whatever they’re doing—and people need housing and they’re sleeping on the street. It’s an emergency. You need to give these people this housing, and then slowly correct it.

Samuels: [01:56:49] But to keep people in the street until you correct it? This is now a public health emergency. There’s no way in the world you have three grown men sleeping on a train, during rush hour, in the morning.

Lewis: In just one car. Lord knows all the other cars.

Samuels: In one car. Who knows what else the other cars—you know, I didn’t really see the other four or five. I just saw the three or four that came past me, and this somewhat empty car—and I just had to get in there! Three people sleeping in the train and they’re taking up about four seats apiece.

Lewis: [01:57:32] Ms. Kay, in terms of this doggedness that you describe, what were the housing campaign meetings like? What was it that gave Picture the Homeless that, that nature?

Samuels: Because people were trying to come up with ways to get politicians to listen—and in the process, also learning how to be political. You know, it’s one thing—which is what I found with CVH—for you to… Although they said they were teaching how people could deal with, you know, some of these things… It’s one thing to go to meetings and—everybody complaining. And it’s like, “Well, we could try to do this. We could try to do that.” To me, Picture the Homeless was more like, “We’re going to teach you how to look at these things, how to analyze them, and from that process, how to approach solving them, along with the political component that comes with that.” Because that’s what people don’t know. That’s what people—and that’s what organizing is about—learning how to organize. At Picture the Homeless, you have people who are little pockets of organizers. That’s important because, they could go to Timbuktu, and they would know how to organize. So, I think Picture the Homeless did a better job of teaching people how to organize, how to analyze a situation, how to determine who it is that you need to go and approach—about addressing a problem so you’re not just in the street screaming. Now, one thing that CVH did, was they would go up to Albany as a group. They would bus up to Albany as a group and go through the process of feeding people, and whatnot, and teaching you how to sit and meet and talk to politicians about an issue… I think Picture the Homeless used to do that, too. I just never got on any of those trips.

Samuels: [02:00:03] But I do know that a lot of organizing takes place in the office and—where they put, you know, which politicians are in charge of this, what is it we’re trying to achieve, how can we go about doing this? It helps you slow your mind down because you can be so angry you’re missing things. But it makes you slow your mind down, so that you start to say to yourself, “I got to learn how to organize.” So, to me, I look at what happens at Picture the Homeless—is that you end up with many of the people that I’ve known over the years now, being really mini-organizers—and thinking more like organizers. Like, if there’s a place where they think they could go and it would be meaningful to meet with the tenants or to meet with the people in a particular homeless shelter, how to reach out, how to organize, how to get people onboard. May not be a hundred percent successful but even if you bring two more people in, that’s two more than what you had. And you don’t know who these people are connected with, that they could have influence over.

Samuels: [02:01:22] So, to me, Picture—and to me, it’s a friendlier attitude than CVH, to me, I think. But that’s just my viewpoint of it. I don’t know, maybe some people think that CVH is better. I find CVH, you know—again, they have people, [imitates voice] “They’re leaders!” It’s just too much of that to me. You have people who are leaders also at CVH, but it just doesn’t seem to be beaten in your head the way that is done with—I mean, in Picture Homeless. It just doesn’t seem to be beaten in your head the way it is with CVH. To me, that’s just too much pomp and circumstance versus really addressing specific issues—really getting out there and addressing specific issues.

Samuels: [02:02:22] And it maybe might be in a funky way, but it’s effective.

Lewis: [Smiles] Do you have any stories that could kind of illustrate the funkiness?

Samuels: Well, sleeping outside that guy’s building [laughs] was pretty funky—and for them to realize they couldn’t move anybody. I don’t think a lot of people know that you can sleep on the street in New York. I don’t think people really know that.

Samuels: [02:02:52] I do stop and ask people if they’re okay, because you never know why somebody is prone, in the street. They could be sick. It could be not that they’re tired and they just want to sleep. It might be that they really aren’t feeling well. So, I always ask and if they’re just sleeping, you know, I’ll leave them alone. If it’s very cold outside, I kind of bug them a bit because I suggest that maybe they do need to go inside. You know, if it’s really, really cold out there because I do worry—I don’t want to ever hear about somebody that I know, or have seen, frozen to death, the next morning. I really don’t. I hope I never experience that, because you feel like is there something else I should have done? You see somebody die on the street like that. I just—and that’s why I said—it just makes me mad at the mayor, and some other folks in terms of how they handle this housing thing. I really don’t think they really understand. I really don’t, you know? I think they make decisions in their ivory tower, they’re nice and warm, and they don’t realize that these people, many of them may have had lives and something happened and that’s why they’re on the street. It’s not because they’re stupid, dumb, or mentally ill people, which is what they try to ascribe it to all the time.

Lewis: [02:04:14] Yeah. And so, you’re working now in a school?

Samuels: Yeah.

Lewis: Could you tell us about your work?

Samuels: Yes, I’m going to say a little bit about it on a limited basis—whereas, you know, just taking care of kids and I’ll leave it like that. I’m going to leave it on that end. But I enjoy it because I’m able to talk to young people and make suggestions in terms of things they could do—that I don’t think they may be hearing—or reinforcing some things that they hear and let them know that “Yeah, it’s real. What you were told is real.” For example, you have some young people who say, “Well, I want to go into the Army”, or “I want to, you know, go into the Armed Forces.” And I will say to them, “Go in as an officer. Don’t go in on entry level because if you go in as an officer, you have more choices and things made available to you.” Because some of the kids are going to do it no matter what. So, it’s one thing to say, “You shouldn’t go in”, versus “At least go in in a way that hopefully [laughs] they won’t send you overseas as soon as you get in there, you know, and start fighting.” I don’t know what it’s like to be in the Armed Forces. I never had to face that, but some people want to do that, and there’s no way of stopping them. So, to me, you need to at least tell them how to go in in a way that they can protect themselves. At least that’s how I feel about it. And then, some of the kids are going to change. They’re just thinking about it for a moment and they’re going to do something else. So, you never know, but you just—if they come to you for advice, then—if you have some advice to give them, I think you should give it to them, and work with the counselors, too, depending on what’s going on with these young people.

Samuels: [02:06:40] It’s a different world out here than when I was in high school. It’s a much different world. The kids… We didn’t have iPhones, we didn’t have, you know, these cell phones, we didn’t have—what’s this thing—Snapchat? We didn’t have Instagram and Facebook, all this craziness that’s out here now, we didn’t have any of that. The first phones that came out were in Radio Shack. Radio Shack is gone now. And they were seven, eight hundred dollars, thousand, twelve hundred dollars. I remember some physicians had phones and they were twelve hundred dollars. That they would even have them placed in their cars for a lot more money than that. The portables were I think, twelve hundred. And now, everything is in your hand, and you do almost everything with your cell phone… Read newspapers, all kinds of stuff. People are in their cell phones on the phone—I mean, on the train. So, it’s just a different type of world that our children are in right now, compared to the world that I grew up in. Everything’s happening a lot faster. Technology’s just so different. It’s changed so much! I remember a computer with two floppy disks and the kids were asking me what was that, you know? And one floppy disk was what made the thing run—because you had to have the disk that ran it and then you had to have the disk you kept your data on. And there was no such thing as graphics on the screen. You just had letters and you hooked up with—what was it called? These things that had information. What was it called? It was a—I can’t remember what you call it now, but you used to be able to log into, like, a board that—

Lewis: A motherboard they called them, but that’s—

Samuels: [02:04:24] Not a motherboard. It would have a list of information, so there were different boards that different people would create, and you would go there via the internet as it was then—because we didn’t have these graphics that you see on web pages, and all this stuff. It was just like, certain boards that you went to, and you pulled down your information from those boards. And that’s how people transmitted information then, too. There was no such thing as email. All the stuff you all have now, [laughs] we didn’t have any of that when the computers first came out. And those things were from a thousand up to five thousand dollars. And now, you have a terabyte in a computer and you’re only paying like, five hundred dollars, six hundred dollars for it. People will say that, “Oh, that’s a lot of money.” Oh, no! [Laughs] You needed to pay, for five hundred megabytes—five thousand dollars. To see the difference now, and you’re walking with them in your hand. And your phone is a computer really, too. So, it’s just, you know, it’s just amazing how these things—and I saw the whole evolution. It’s really the little Apples, the original Apple’s, and all of that—I hate to say I’m that old—but yeah! That’s—all that stuff, transpired through all of that. So, that’s—all this is new.

So, when these kids come with stuff, you have to try to put yourself in their space, not into the space that you came from—to understand what’s going on with them and how they relate to other people, and whatnot. I’m still learning how to use the Facebook video thing, you know? People talk to each other, [laughs] you know… So, it’s just a, it’s a different world completely. So, as I said, these kids look at things differently. They look at joining things differently, like the Armed Forces and whatnot. That also is much more technical, than it used to be, and it’s just a  different world. Just a different world we’re in. We’re ready to blow each other up and shoot each other up, and all this other stuff, and we can do it in an instant now, so—

Lewis: [02:11:06] Do you have any parting thoughts that you would like to share about any of this, including Picture the Homeless?

Samuels: Nothing much… More than to say that I really want to see Picture the Homeless get its groove back. I really think it’s valuable, as an organization… And you know, I’m just—I’m in a state of shock about what’s happening with it now. But I think you really need to—at this point—call everybody together that you can, and not just have hub meetings where you just have a few folks sitting and talking, but call—have a few meetings that you can, calling everybody. And maybe the Longest Night might present as an opportunity to do that, to reach out to as many people as you can and say, look, you know, we really need to get together for this.

Samuels: [02:12:26] Because the party was one thing. And I was glad that I could make it. I don’t know if you saw my Twitter comment that I said that—

Lewis: I’m not on Twitter. [Smiles] What did you say?

Samuels: I called out the names of all the Harlem politicians, with their Twitter names. [Laughs] And I said, “Are you going to be there? You know, I’m going to be there. Are you going to be there?” And that is a problem for me, that we did not see—that I remember, unless I came in late—any of these politicians!

Lewis: No. And Bill Perkins was downstairs when we arrived, so—

Samuels: Oh, he’s…

Lewis: —were talking to him.

Samuels: Because—but stay quiet on that. But… You know… Where is…Where are these people? See, that was annoying to me, and I was almost thinking maybe I can write an editorial about it. I wonder if they would print it. You know, one of the most effective, hardworking organizations—and there wasn’t one politician sitting there. That bothered me. That really, really bothered me.

Samuels: [02:14:02] But we have got to… We got to come back, and we’ve got to be a powerhouse, and we’ve got to really rock and roll and the only way I see doing that is providing opportunities to call on everybody, to please come to a meeting. We need to talk. And it needs to be several of them, so that there’s different times so people can come. It can’t be just one meeting that everybody needs to show up—because people like me, something happens and you can’t come. Doesn’t mean you don’t want to come… And start getting ideas in there and start building up again. Maybe even creating small committees that people can start doing certain types of work in and trying to pull other people in and having events around those committees. But it’s got to come back and it’s got to come back strong. And the board probably needs to go for some training if we can get some money for them so that this doesn’t happen again. Because, as I said, there’s no way in the world that there shouldn’t have been monthly reports. But again, I hear that something was going on, but the reports were not reflecting what was really going on. Not being there, I don’t know. But it would be hard for me to believe, that—and with Marcus there and with Jean there—it’s hard for me to believe that if they were hearing certain things, that they would not have questioned. So, it makes me believe that they weren’t hearing certain things, so that they could question.

Lewis: Well, I think you could be—

Samuels: It’s got to come back.

Lewis: —if you have time, you would be a really big part of rebuilding that if you had time.

Samuels: [02:16:02] And I have no problem with that, because what I was trying to do was look at how my schedule is because so much goes into going to that crazy Community Board 10—and being at those meetings… Because what people don’t know about community boards or what they don’t understand, is that the work is done at the committees. The monthly board meeting is you hear all the stuff about what went on at the committee meetings in terms of results, which you don’t really hear the blow by blow and step by step that took place.

Lewis: Yes.

Samuels: [02:16:32] And I tell the community you need to come to the committee meetings to really—about issues that you’re concerned about—because just asking about issues at the board meetings, the general board meetings, is good to put it on the record. But you don’t know what happens at the committee meeting, when the discussion takes place about what you brought up at the general board—if it’s even brought up at all Because I’ve seen them just completely ignore issues. So, I tell people you have to go to those meetings. And it just gets aggravating to go to those committee meetings because, to me, it’s just not about the community with them. It’s about profiling… And doing whatever the politicians want them to do. What—so be it for that. So, you know, I’m always there but I’m going to try to cut down on certain committee meetings and start to get more involved with Picture the Homeless. My only thing is there’s no real general meeting that I see taking place—for people to sit down and work out a strategy. How do we save this?

Lewis: Well, let’s, after the interview, let’s figure that out, or get together another time soon and talk about that because there’s—a lot of people are mentioning or saying the same thing.

Samuels: Yes, we—what’s the plan, you know?

Lewis: Yes.

Samuels: [02:18:00] And the longer you wait on it—people are floating away or upset or, you know, it gets, to me, harder to even ask for—to reach out for funds and stuff if things are lasting so long that… Folks don’t know what happened. I mean, I sure would like to know what happened. But even at this point, maybe I don’t. Maybe I just want to see what can be done to save the place.

Lewis: All right, well, we can—we’ll work on that. We’ll talk about that after the interview.

Samuels: It’s imperative. It’s important.

Lewis: So, we’ll wrap up now. Thank you.

Samuels: Okay.

Lewis: All right.

[END OF INTERVIEW]