James Doctor

Lewis: [00:00:02] Good afternoon.

Doctor: Hello Lynn, how are you doing?

Lewis: I'm doing great, I'm happy to see you, Doc, for our interview today, for the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project. It's March 5th—we agreed on a minute ago, [smiles] 2020, and we're going to be interviewing James Doctor, who is a civil rights leader at Picture the Homeless and a former staff person… Doc, do you mind if we use your nickname, Doc?

Doctor: No, no, that's what everybody calls me, so I'm used to it.

Lewis: Alrighty. Doc, could you tell us where you're from?

Doctor: [00:00:45] Well, my name's James Doctor. I was born and raised in Jersey City, New Jersey. Mother and Father raised me. I have ten brothers and sisters, siblings, all one family, one big family. I don't know how my family did it, my mother and father. I tip my hat off to them. They raised eleven of us. Oh my God. [Smiles] I don't know how they did it, but fortunately, they did it. They did a good job; I can honestly say that, you know, but… That's basically where I'm from—Jersey City… Anything else?

Lewis: [00:01:27] So, of the ten brothers and sisters that you have—you have ten?

Doctor: Yes.

Lewis: Are you in the middle? Are you the oldest? Are you the baby?

Doctor: I'm next to the baby. I have two younger brothers, they're twin brothers. They’re the youngest and then it's me, and everybody else is older than me, but... Yeah so I'm next to the last out of all of us.

Lewis: [00:01:52] What was Jersey City like when you were growing up?

Doctor: Jersey City? It was nice, man. To me, more like… You compare Jersey City to New York, it’s like being in the country and the city, because Jersey City is more of a suburb. It’s not the city activity, it’s the suburb activity. You know, neighborhood brownstone houses, you know… You don’t see too many projects and high-rise buildings and stuff like that. So, it’s a pretty nice place to grow up and live. I’m pretty happy there.

Lewis: [00:02:34] What kind of stuff did you do as a kid?

Doctor: As a kid? As a kid growing up—you don’t even see the kids these—I was just talking to my wife, Chyna [Burke] this morning about it. You don’t see the kids do the things we do, now. Because they was talking about the virus that’s going around, and stuff, and the lady was talking about things to prepare. Like, in case you have to be in the house for a long period of time, and they were showing, like the games, like Monopoly, The Game of Life.

Doctor: [00:03:07] And I was like, “I don’t see the kids like outside, Double-Dutching or playing tops or stickball, like when I was growing up.” We used to go in the street with a little tennis ball and stickball, or draw chalk boxes and play tops, checkers, stuff like that. I don’t see the kids really doing that nomore. Because everything I guess now is all computer, everything is on computer, so it’s like… When I was growing up, we had more interactive, physical game playing growing up, than they do now. Everything is virtual and stuff. You’d be a thousand miles away and playing with somebody, thanks to the computer age now. Back then, you know, if your friend was sick, you had to find something else to do.

Lewis: What was school like for you when you were growing up?

Doctor: [00:04:10] School? School was good, school was good. Fortunately, and stuff, I had my brothers and sisters, all of us, our parents stayed on us that education was very important with them, you know. And I had, like I said, older brothers and sisters. If I needed help in school working stuff, they would take the time out and help, you know? We helped each other, as well as helped our friends, and stuff. I liked school… It was good. I can’t say it was too bad and stuff, no. I had the good days and bad days. Some classes you was good in, some of the classes— average. But you know, I was fortunate enough. I kept my grades good; I played sports and I graduated from high school and stuff... You know, I can’t complain, I can’t complain.

Lewis: What were some of your favorite subjects?

Doctor: [00:05:15] My favorite subject… Probably would be world history and science. I don’t know, because I was always—I would probably mean—probably science. Because I was always fascinated with the “what if?” Could this really be? Is it possible? Even now people laugh at me because I’ll be like… Man, they don’t see—they show us the Star Trek commercials with the technology and robots and stuff. I said, “You see them like, traveling in space and stuff like that?” I said, “That’s because that’s what mankind is reaching to achieve!” I said, “Do you think they’re going to the moon and putting these rocket ships and stuff up” I said, “because if you pay attention—they’re trying to find out how to colonize and populate the moons and outer space. Because if something happened to the Earth, you got to have a secondary place to go to!” And the way they’re doing the world now, they better think of something quick. [Smiles]

Lewis: [00:06:32] So if you don’t mind, what year were you born?

Doctor: 1965, so I’m still a sixties baby.

Lewis: [00:06:41] Yes, and so when you were growing up in Jersey City… When did you become aware of the events going on in the world at the time? In the sixties, there was a lot of—and the seventies—a lot of things going on in the world. Did they have an impact on you, as you recall?

Doctor: I would say it had an impact on me, because I grew up basically in a time—it was changing, you know. Because we were going through a lot of Civil Rights movements and stuff. You had Dr. Martin Luther King was still alive—just recently gotten killed, you know. You had a lot of Black movements going on. People was starting to get more freedom rights and movement.

Doctor: [00:07:34] So, I grew up like in the change. I seen a lot more time—difference from now and back then. A lot of the things that I grew up and I’m guess even people of my—brothers and stuff, older than me grew up, we got to somewhat witness and see. The kids of today didn’t see that, or don’t see. So, they don’t really understand the impact that it plays in our life, you know, so... That’s why I try to, as much as I can, educate them and give back, so we don’t keep repeating ourselves.

Lewis: [00:08:19] Are there some things that come to mind in particular, like a story that you would share about things that folks were going through at the time, that you want people to know about now?

Doctor: Off the top of my head, I can’t really answer that, you know. I can’t just right out answer that. Because at that time, like I said, it was so many different things going on, and the world was changing. And then, me being young, I pretty much was running streets… I paid attention, but I didn’t pay attention, [smiles] because—I was having fun, you know? [Laughs] But I knew the seriousness that was going on and stuff, because I seen what my parents were going through, and I was old enough to understand. And I watched the news and stuff, because as a child growing up, sitting there with my mother watching news and stuff in the morning, I learned a lot. But, like I said… I couldn’t… Like I said, I couldn’t really explain that. That’s a difficult one at this moment.

Lewis: And your parents, did they come up from down south? I feel like we had conversations about South or North Carolina?

Doctor: [00:09:49] Well, my family’s originally from South Carolina. They’re both from the south and stuff. And my father, he—it was really just, besides him, my grandparents, my grandmother, and grandfather, he only had one other brother and he always wanted like a bigger family. And my mother—it was her and like, I think she had like two sisters, and she wanted a big family. So, it worked out for them. [Smiles] They had their big family, everything worked out okay.

Lewis: [00:10:26] Did you used to go down and visit your family in South Carolina when you were growing up?

Doctor: Oh, yes. I couldn’t wait. [unclear] I couldn’t wait, every summer we used to go like, on summer vacation. My parents would take us down to visit my grandparents, and we grew up down there. They had a farm, so they had horses, cows, pigs. So, for me being a city kid, and going down there and my grandfather teaching me how to ride a horse and stuff, I couldn’t wait for the sun to come up in the morning. [sound effect] I’m out the door, and then I’d skip breakfast, everything. I was out there in the barn, doing my little chores so I could ride the horse and go play with the animals. I couldn’t wait. Every summer, “when we going, when we going?” I had my suitcase ready a week early, I was ready! Yeah, I… Like I said,  I can’t take that back; I had a good childhood.

Lewis: That’s nice. Where did you get your love of cooking from? I know you became a chef, as an adult you became a cook. Can you think about a time when you were growing up? Was food important in your family, and who did you first learn to cook from?

Doctor: [00:11:46] I learned to cook from my mother. Because she always tells me, she said—one thing she said, “I want you to always be able to take care of yourself.” You know… Because… You know, she didn’t want us to stereotype women, like all they do is chores—like they take care of their kids, cook, and clean the house and stuff. She wanted us to learn to be sufficient, to feed yourself and stuff, wash your clothes, take care of yourself. Then learn all aspects, both sides of the life and stuff. So, you don’t just look at it from one side, you got to be able to look both sides of the story.

Doctor: [00:12:30] So, my mother, she’s like, “Come here, let me show you a little trick, how I do this.” Because she’s from the south, and you couldn’t wait—where you can smell the aroma and friends will say, “Oh, what’s your mother cooking? Can I come over to your house?” So, I got my love for cooking from my mother.

Doctor: [00:12:49] And that was my way of spending time—like, when I wanted to know something, I knew I could catch her in the kitchen cooking stuff, you know. She always took time out to prepare a meal for the family, and stuff like that. So, I know if I wanted to really talk to Mom, catch her in the kitchen when she’s cooking. I might have to peel a potato or whatever, but I got to find out what I wanted to find out, without the rest of the family knowing what I was going through and stuff, you know. If it was a girl problem, or it could have been just me being mad with one of my brothers or sisters and didn’t know how to tell them I was mad with them. So, I would wait until I would get a chance to talk to my mother. I know, to catch her, she was in the kitchen cooking a meal, so I’d go in there, and “Ma, can I help you?” And from doing that, I start picking up the tricks of the trades and stuff and next thing you know...

Doctor: [00:13:48] I mean, and my younger brother, he’s another one, God bless the dead… Another one who took—loved—passion for cooking and stuff. I just like to see—once I had seen how happy, from my mother—just a simple meal, made people feel and stuff… It puts joy in you. Just to know that. I’d take just some rice and eggs or whatever and put it in and makes them happy and stuff, you know.

Lewis: [00:14:46] That’s beautiful. What was your mom’s name?

Doctor: Oh, Maddy [Doctor].

Lewis: Maddy?

Doctor: Yes.

Lewis: And your dad?

Doctor: Herman [Doctor].

Lewis: Herman?

Doctor: Yes.

Lewis: [00:14:35] And, what would you say you learned from your dad? Not that there’s only one thing.

Doctor: No, [unclear] my pops and I, and see with him—a jack of all trades. He taught me so much—from electrician, carpentry… It’s just so much, so much. I learned so many different trades from him and stuff. You know, sports, everything, I mean… Like I said, dad—like, you know people grew up and they used to look at like, the basketball players, and superstars, footballers… My hero was my pops, you know what I’m saying? For real, with my father and my oldest brother, he was a Navy SEAL, God bless the day he died. But, those were my heroes, those were my heroes and stuff, you know. Because just the way they did things, the way they treated people, the respect they got from people… Just being themselves, you know, not trying to be no bully or—just being their natural selves and stuff. It showed me how people like you for just being you.

Lewis: [00:15:52] Nice. And so, you mentioned that you played sports in school?

Doctor: Yes.

Lewis: What kind of sports did you play?

Doctor: Me—well, I… Basically, which one I didn’t play, because I was on the swimming team, football team… Basically the only thing I didn’t do was play baseball, I think, you know. But I basically played football, that was my sport. I got two state championship—high school state championship rings and stuff, so...

Lewis: Congratulations.

Doctor: Thank you.

Lewis: That’s a big deal.

Doctor: [00:16:30] Yeah… Well, and I got to share both of them, actually with my brother. He’s a year older than me, and stuff. We both played. We was always competitive with each other, but we played sports together and stuff and... That’s who… That’s my dude, that’s my dude. [Laughs]

Lewis: What’s his name?

Doctor: His name’s Gregory [Doctor]. That’s my older brother. Yeah, that’s my dude. We call him Super Doc. [Laughs] Yeah, we used to call him Super Doc, instead of because... Say we’re playing football, we need that extra touchdown, or something like—give him the ball. He’d go above and beyond, but he’d really get it in the goal line, [smiles] some way, somehow, you get him past there, he got that ball down there where you had to get it to. That was like our go to man in the neighborhood growing up.

Lewis: [00:17:24] Nice. I know you still go over to Jersey City and visit with your family. Most of them are still over there?

Doctor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still got a lot of brothers and nieces and nephews over there. My other—two of my brothers are over there. Other ones—one is over here, the other has passed away. Other than that, yeah, I still go over there and visit my family.

Lewis: [00:17:53] And what brought you to New York?

Doctor: To New York? Well, after growing up in Jersey City, and I got in some trouble with the law over there. I came back after doing some time in prison and wanted to change my life, and a friend of mines recommended coming over here to one of the programs, for a fresh start. He said, “Because if you go back, in your old community, your old neighborhood…” He said, “You’re too well known.” He said, “You know they’re going—first thing, your old friends are going to come and they—sooner or later they’re going to pressure you, and you’re going to be right back into the same thing you just coming home from jail from. How long before you think you’re going go back, or worse?” And, it was true, because since that time, a lot of the friends that I had there and stuff, they’re either back in jail, or they’re no longer with us… Unfortunately, most of them are not even with us, because they done got killed, out there in the game and stuff, so... Now, the best thing I think I did was to come to New York after I did the time in prison.

Lewis: [00:19:16] What was New York like at the time? What neighborhood did you come to?

Doctor: When I first came to New York, I came to Harlem, right into Manhattan, because that’s where the program was located. And I basically knew my way around Manhattan, because growing up—come back and forth to the city, you know, venturing to 42nd Street, and stuff like that, and just traveling around. I got to learn a little bit of the city—then having cousins over here and coming and visiting them as I grew up. So, yeah—it was okay, somewhat familiar place. And then I had some people that I know that was in the program, so, it made me feel a little more comfortable as far as starting out—over again, and stuff. It felt good, and you know, just a friendly face when I first got here.
 
Lewis: [00:20:14] So, you’re in Harlem, and you’re a young man. How old were you when you came to New York?

Doctor: I was like about… Early forties when I came back, yeah, about early forties, about forty-two, something like that when I came back to New York… Yeah, somewhere around there.

Lewis: [00:20:42] What was Harlem like then?

Doctor: [Long pause] Well, when I came it was different. It was different. Because I remember, I was sitting one day, I came, I went to the program so, you know, do your first thirty-day blackout, you can’t go out the program, stuff like that. So, when I first got my first leave to come out, me and the young lady, we’re sitting outside, and I remember back in the day, you know, nothing mean, but Harlem was like—segregated. Like you… Certain areas you couldn’t go in, certain areas you wouldn’t see Black people in and stuff. So, when I came home and I seen the interracial act, you know… Because like I said, it was like evening-time and a young white lady she was walking down the street, walking a dog and the girl was like, “What is you looking at?”

Doctor: [00:21:38] I’m like, “Why is this lady walking around here at night?” You know what I’m saying, “In this area, and nobody’s with her and stuff, you know.” She’s like, “No, time’s change.” Because I was used to the time growing up—if you saw… White women, Black women, whatever, certain time of night in certain areas, they were doing something illegal, you know. Most of them were prostitutes and stuff like that, so just to be keeping it real. So, I’m like looking at the young lady because like I said, when I went to prison, you wasn’t seeing people like, especially not no white people walking around in Harlem at night by themselves and stuff, walking no dog… Because the chances are they was getting robbed or something in the street, because it’s crazy at that time.

Lewis: [00:22:36] And so, what part of Harlem were you in?

Doctor: I was right here, right in Harlem, 125th Street.

Lewis: On the Eastside?

Doctor: Eastside, yeah. Always the Eastside, but I be back and forth, both—you know—West to Eastside, it ain’t matter to me, so, you know.

Lewis: [00:22:55] So, this would have been like, what? In 2000-something?

Doctor: Like 2015, [20]16?

Lewis: That’s when you came back?

Doctor: Yes, around there, like 2015, [20]16, something like that, beginning around there.

Lewis: [00:23:18] That’s around the same time that Picture the Homeless came back to Harlem. We came back in May of 2015. And so, do you remember when you first heard about Picture the Homeless?

Doctor: [00:23:35] I remember when I first heard about Picture the Homeless. I didn’t have a clue who you guys was. [Laughs] Keeping it real, I didn’t even care who you all was! You know, I just thought y’all was another group of people looking to use and take advantage of the homeless people out there on the streets, you know—because so many people use you just to get some kind of ratings, or publicity, by using and taking advantage. And I thought they were pretty much doing the same thing because I seen so many people come through there, “Oh, we’re going to try to help y’all do this, we’re going to do that.” And then, you don’t see them no more, or you see them as a month, two months done went passed—and then they still ain’t coming to try and help you do nothing.

Doctor: [00:24:23] But Picture the Homeless, I honestly can say, y’all said y’all was coming, y’all come back and check on us, y’all came back and checked on us and stuff… And yeah, and like… I was telling—I think I was telling Nikita [Price], I said the day he had came, and told me you wanted to speak to me… And I came out, he was like, “Yeah, my boss wants to speak to you.” You know, ya ya… I’m talking to him, but I ain’t have no clue that he was bringing me over there, and that you was going to offer me a job—working with you all.

Doctor: [00:25:00] And that just like blew my mind and stuff. I was like, what? I don’t know [unclear] somebody like taking a chance and giving me a second chance, you know, to get back out of the street, and get my life together, and get my head focused and stuff… These people got to be worth looking into, you know. This got to be something worth looking into, it got to be something good in here.

Doctor: [00:25:26] So, I stuck around, and nothing but good things came from it, and that’s why I’m still here today. I tell them thanks to Picture the Homeless and you, Lynn [Lewis], Nikita, and y’all, I’m not homeless and on the streets no more, but I’m still homeless because as long as there’s a homeless person out there, I’m out there with them. Because I know what it is to be out there.

Doctor: [00:25:55] I know what it is to come from a good family, to have everything going for you, to be able… To have the opportunity to go to college and everything, and in a split second you destroy it and throw it all away and give up hope on everything. And all it takes it one person to smile and extend a helping hand, can change your whole life back around. And you did that that day that you sent Nikita and… Just, y’all just said, “Yo, come over here and just… Y’all welcome, just come and just hang and talk to us. That changed my life. It put hope back in my heart and stuff.

Doctor: [00:26:40] That’s why I still go out there to this day and I try to help them, I go and check on the ones that’s still out there. I make it my business just to go by and check on them and stuff. I don’t have to. I could have been like a lot of other people—just stop caring, then… But no… Somebody got to do it. And I’m just trying to keep the ball rolling from what you passed, and Nikita, and everybody else from the boys passed on to me, I’m just trying to pass it on to somebody else and hope we could keep it going.
 
Doctor: [00:27:16] I was thinking this morning, as a matter of fact walking over here, I was like, we focused on the homeless here in New York, or right here where we at, but there’s homeless people all over the world. Because I was just looking at the news with the tornadoes and seeing peoples’ houses torn up, and how the community came together, and they don’t got nowhere to go, but they’re still bonding them, and helping each other preparing and trying to get their life back together… We need that all over, you know.

Doctor: [00:27:54] And sometimes all it takes is just one person, a group of people, just to let others know that somebody out there still care about them, still love them, still believe in them and stuff. And a lot of the times that’s all—that’s all we need! That’s all I need. That’s all—I know some of my—some of them, that’s all they need, a little push and stuff, to let them know—you know, don’t give up.

Lewis: [00:28:20] You know, when you say you know what it’s like to be out there on the street, do you mind sharing what is it like to be out there on the street when you’re homeless?

Doctor: [Long pause] Hmmm… Let me see… How can I best describe this… Nah, there’s… Nah, I can’t even see, but… I seen—Animals, like stray… I’ve seen stray dogs and animals get treated better than people had treated other people. And they’re human beings just like… Just because you got a job or you’re doing a little good in your life, and a person may be down on their luck and stuff, they got to remember and stuff, a lot of them came from good families, got education…

Doctor: [00:29:29] I met a guy and stuff—he got college degrees, and he’s homeless on the street and stuff, no one even told you the family. And then the way he talks to me—because his own family gave up on him because he got caught up in the drug game, and they turned their back on him, but he felt nobody cared no more. But just from talking to him—he’s white, I’m Black—but nobody reached out to him and stuff. But from me seeing him walking past, I just said hello to him, and come to find out a nice young man… Just made the wrong choice in his life. But now he’s trying to get his life back together. But sometimes you just need somebody to say, “Just keep your head up, stay strong, it’s going to be all right. You’ve got to sometimes go through the roughness to get to the easiness. Everything is going to be all right, brother.
 
Doctor: [00:30:29] But like I said, I’ve been out there. I came from a very good family and stuff, very good upbringing, could have went to college, I could have did so many possible things, unlimited things, I had opportunities to do them—made the wrong choices, end up messing my life up, wind up homeless… And for me to know what it is to have a home and family, love, and stuff, and then for people to look at you less than a human being or treat you worse than they treat an animal that may bite them or kill them and stuff, and then they treat you and talk to you less than, that hurts. That hurts more than you actually punching the person in the face or physically hitting them with something—to disgrace a person because they made a mistake in their life.

Doctor: [00:31:31] That’s what they made the eraser for on the pencil, right? They erased and corrected the mistake, but if you don’t give them a chance to correct their mistake… They might as well just tear the paper up, and throw it in the garbage, and give up. And that’s what a lot of them did, because nobody gave them a chance to make their mistakes correct and stuff… No, it’s hard. It’s hard.

Lewis: [00:31:59] Wow… That’s… I don’t know, you just said a lot of really profound things, Doc. I think it’s going to help anybody who hears this or reads it, it’s going to help them understand… That it’s kind of simple to be able to show someone that you love them and respect them. And one of the things that always impressed me about you is that you were part of a group of folks that we met that was sleeping outside on 125th Street around the Metro North.

Doctor: Uh huh.

Lewis: And that you all—not that everything was perfect—but you all to a certain extent took care of each other. And how did you end up being part of that crew there around the Metro North?

Doctor: [00:32:52] [Unclear] Like… When I was here, I was already, like I said, I was doing the program, I was working there cooking in the kitchen and stuff, and then a situation happened… I left there, wound up becoming homeless. And I ran into old guy, you know, Rick [Anthony Rainey] being in a wheelchair. I knew him from probably before then and stuff, I knew Rick from some time, some years before that. So, when I met him out there, and he was homeless at the time too, and stuff.

Doctor: [00:33:25]  I’m like, “Hold on, last I saw you, you were doing great, and had everything.” He had his own business, everything. Life has rough times. But we wind up hooking up again, being friends, and just wound up looking out for each other and as people was coming along, they ain’t had nowhere to go, we all just started becoming friends, and… Grew into a family, you know? Like, we didn’t come from the same mother and father, but we all had respect and mutual understanding, and we knew what each other was going through and stuff, and we cared about each other, and everybody just bonded into a family. We just started looking out for each other.

Lewis: [00:34:14] At that time were you all sleeping under the Metro North in that plaza part? Or where we you staying?

Doctor: No, we were sleeping… We were basically hanging around Metro North, but we were sleeping over by this school that was a block away from there and stuff. Because when we was out there, I used to see, like the… I’m an early riser, so I used to see, like the people when they be coming into work and stuff like that… They used to see me, sometimes I would help them, so I got to know the superintendents from coming in and stuff. So, they let us used to like—at night we’d go there and sleep under the school and stuff, you know. And in the morning we’d get up, we’d clean our stuff up, take our belongings out and stuff. And they used to, after a while, they used to come out—like they had extra breakfast or stuff like that and give it to us and stuff. But that’s basically where we was at. We were sleeping anywhere where it was warm.

Doctor: [00:35:15] We’d go to the park and stuff in the summertime, make tents and sleep on the grass, or on the concert stage. You just basically made you a home to live wherever you found a place that you felt was safe and secure there.

Lewis: [00:35:33] And the park, you mean Marcus Garvey park?

A: Yeah, yeah, Marcus Garvey Park.

Lewis: Where the stage is.

Doctor: Yes.

Lewis: [00:35:41] And how were the park workers? How did they treat you all?

Doctor: The park workers? Well, the park workers and stuff, they used to never bother nobody. They used to like, just ask everybody like, just basically look out for each other. When I went there and stuff, the guy who was running the park, he’d be like, “We know at certain times—we know y’all will be here, just don’t like, hurt nobody, just look after each other, and try to keep where you all at clean and stuff, so we don’t get no complaints from people in the city and stuff like that, you all won’t get no complaints from us.”

Doctor: [00:36:18] And you know, because they said some people they understood, and they know the circumstances. They know not everybody out there homeless because they’re bad, or they’re on the run—hiding, and stuff like that. Some people are honest good people that just ran on bad luck… Just trying to bide time and stuff until they get back in the workforce or back on their feet.

Doctor: [00:36:46] Because… The problem with a lot of why so many people homeless now and on these streets is because they honestly don’t feel safe in the shelter system… No—because you got a lot of young kids and stuff going on, and the gang members and stuff, and they’re intimidating the older people and stuff, the handicapped, disabled people. And then the staff members in the place, they want to say something to them, but they can’t say nothing because they’ve got to fear other people doing something to them!

Doctor: [00:37:28] You see it all the time… On… This morning I was looking on the news. Guy asked them, “Don’t hold the train doors, let people get to work.” He punched the guy and stuff, now he on the run for assault charge, the guy in the hospital hurt and stuff, just for trying to do something kind, and stop the guy from delaying the train. And whatever his problem was that he struck the guy, that’s something else. But he just made the problem even bigger—for what, not just to let a train door close, you’re going to turn around and hit a guy? What kind of thing is you doing?

Doctor: [00:38:09] But then they… Look at the homeless people like they did something even worse than that! You’ve got guys running around and stuff that’s doing violent crimes, and stuff like that, and they even taking it out on the homeless people. This is people who don’t even have nothing, you know? Wondering where they’re going to get a meal the next day and stuff, and you’re taking stuff from them, beating up on them, and hitting them because they don’t have nobody to stand up for them. No, that’s wrong, that’s wrong. That ain’t how I was raised. And I’m quite sure a lot more wasn’t raised like that and stuff, but… If nobody stand up and speak out about it, it’s going to happen, it’s going to continue to happen. Like I said, until people say they’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, nothing change till the sun change.

Lewis: [00:39:09] Well, that’s a perfect segue to why… What is it about you, do you think, that moved you to stand up and start speaking out about how homeless folks are being treated?

Doctor: [Long pause] Hmmmm… Me, myself? Like I said, I grew up in a well to do family, I came from a well to do family. And we grew up respecting each other—no matter what, [unclear] grew up like skin color don’t mean nothing, it was how you treat—how a person treated you is how you treat a person. They give you respect, you give them respect, and what not. Even sometimes they may disrespect you because they don’t know nothing, you still show them respect because they may not know what they’re doing, and stuff. So…
 
Doctor: [00:40:09] Me… I guess… I just didn’t like—I never liked seeing nobody being bullied. And I seen how a lot of guys, because they had a little thing going for themselves, how they disrespect the homeless people, or especially the older homeless people, and stuff like that. Come on, you wouldn’t want to be treated like that, so don’t do it to somebody else. And some of them they can’t defend themselves, and if somebody else don’t speak for them, other people going to keep doing it to them, and then other people are going to do it to them, and it’s never going to stop.

Doctor: [00:40:53] But as long as they know it’s one person out there going to say, “No, I’m not going to let you do this to that person. They know they’re not going to be able to do it. They’re not going to come around and try. That’s the thing, we’re going on with the politics, the president, everything, Congress, going on now… That’s why the world is going crazy because—enough is enough and if they don’t stop it now, it’s only going to get worse.

Lewis: [00:41:21] So, you’re the kind of person that just says, “I’m going to be the one to stand up?”

Doctor: [Long pause] Nah, I can’t say that. I didn’t choose none of this. I didn’t choose none of it. Like I said, I… I pretty much, I’m just thankful for what God gave to me, he provides, and continues to do for me, and I go by that and stuff. And I just try to live by what he installed in my parents, and they installed in my heart… And that’s treat people how you want to be treated. I’m sure nobody wants to be treated less than, you know. And I don’t want to be treated less than, I’m quite sure they don’t want to be treated less than.

Doctor: [00:42:25] And then the same person that’s doing it to them, guess what—if you should happen to become homeless, when you come down here, we’re going to welcome you with open arms and stuff, even though you’re probably the same one who disrespecting them, but somebody got to let you know—you’re loved. We all go through rough times, but somebody did  care about you and stuff. You just got to keep your head up and stay strong.

Lewis: [00:42:53] So, we were talking before the interview—speaking of love, and taking care of—about your wife Chyna, and that you all have been together for ten years.

Doctor: Uh-huh.

Lewis: And I know for all the time that we’ve known you through Picture the Homeless, Chyna has also been a leader of the Civil Rights campaign. And so, you were telling a really nice story before the interview of how you all met.

Doctor: Oh yes, yes. [Smiles]

Lewis: Do you want to share that again?

Doctor: [00:43:27] Oh yes. [Laughs] Ah… That—what… I think that was like in 2015? When I came back to New York, I was working at one of the drug programs, and she happened to come to the program. I was like… I worked in the kitchen, but I was like the lead server, so I used to see them every morning when they came down for breakfast, lunch, like that. So, I’m a nice person, speak to people. I guess she took a liking, but one of the things was when you used to get in trouble in the program, part of the disciplinary action was they used to make you have to like do kitchen duty—wash dishes, stuff like that, you know.

Doctor: [00:44:13] So, she liked me, so she used to always get herself in trouble so she could come in the kitchen, so she could be around me. So, one day I just happened to ask her, I was like, “How come every time I turn around, you constantly getting yourself in trouble?” And she finally told me why and stuff, so… From there—we are where we at. It’s ten years later, and we still together.

Lewis: [00:44:40] Nice. You know, a lot of times, you know, you read newspaper articles, or you hear how people who aren’t homeless talk about homeless people, like that they’re all alone, and they don’t necessarily think of homeless folks as falling in love, and having a wife, and going through that together, especially on the street. And how… You know, is there anything about that that you’d like to share to help folks understand what that’s all about?

Doctor: [00:45:12] That’s… I’m glad you brought that up because see, that’s one of the main things people need to really look at and remember and stuff. Is that regardless if we’re homeless, we’re still human beings. We still have feelings, and we still get up in the morning, we put our shoes on just like you do, wash our face, and looking for our coffee or whatever, however our day go in the morning, but we’re human beings in the beginning, and at the end of the day. So, all we ask is to be treated with respect as being just a human being!

Doctor: [00:45:54] Because you never know that same person you’re talking down to can be that person two years, six months down the line, you may need their help, or they may wind up giving you a job or something, helping you, if you wind up homeless and stuff. So, you never know and it’s why I say you got to be careful how you treat people because you never know when you might need them again.

Lewis: [00:46:25] Thanks Doc. Do you… You know, when we met you, you know—2015, the police had started to move people around on 125th Street and harass people. And when did you notice… Can you think of a time that you noticed there was an increase in police encounters?

Doctor: [00:46:56] Like the police presence… Yeah, let me see. I think that was like more or less around the spring of 2016, around April of 2016.  I guess we more or less noticed like more presence and the police more or less like harassing people like, “Oh, you can’t stay here. You all can’t stay there. You all got to go over there. You all got to go over there. No, you’ve got to go over there.” Where do you all want us to go? You say we can’t stay here, but there’s no reason why we can’t be there. We’ll be nice enough—move, you say we can’t… All day long, this is what they doing, but this has been going on since like—as far as I know, like I said, April 2016, around the time when I really noticed that the police was more or less like… Harassing people! There ain’t no other way to put it and stuff—you know?

Doctor: [00:48:08] Some of them—I don’t know—coming in if he had a bad night with his wife or the kids pissed him off, and because he got a badge and uniform they feel they can get away with a lot of things. Not all cops is like, you know, because they’re human too. They go through their feelings and emotional—family problems and stuff too, and some of them unfortunately carry their problems to work, just like another person would. But it’s how you deal with it.

Lewis: [00:48:43] I remember you one time telling a story that a police officer—was calling— addressed you by name, that they knew you… Before they came up and asked you for your ID, they already knew who you were. And we’ve heard from other people too that we’ve talked to that the cops knew folks by name.

Doctor: Yeah.

Lewis: Do you… During that time, do you have any examples or stories that you want to share of how the police treated you?

Doctor: [00:49:24] [Long pause] No. That there and stuff… Because like I said, it’s like two sides to the street. You had those individuals that was in the uniform that used their authority, you know… I don’t know, maybe because they’d been bullied growing up and stuff, that was their way of getting back for not being able to beat up the bully growing up, and stuff. Whatever their reason was, that’s on them, they got to deal with that. I can’t hold that for them. But… Uh, how can I say… Let me see. Police—some of them they have good intentions and stuff. They—I guess, you know… I interact with them and stuff… All of them is not messed up in the head, because some of them got some crazy thing and just like ordinary people. We all go through feelings and emotions; like I said, it’s how you deal with it.
 
Doctor: [00:50:35] But… All of them not bad, all of them not good… But I had some not so good encounters with them where I got a mark right here in my head, and probably see them when you’re looking where my hair not growing back now… Officer hit me in a head with his walkie-talkie—no reason. No reason. Because they had a confrontation with a group of people prior to that, and then I gets in the fight with another civilian on the street, and as the police is arresting, or rather breaking us up… And I knew I was wrong, and I hit the guy first and stuff, so I wasn’t debating none of that. But as the cop was arresting me, one of his fellow officers just pulls up, “Get out the way, get out the way!” And walks up and just hit me in the head with his walkie-talkie… And I’m looking at this guy like, for real?! So, I hit him back.

Doctor: [00:51:47] And from there that’s where the fight—And from then—it’s like any time I’m in that area, it’s like I feel like they’re pointing at me. Like certain officers they know who I am, they know I’m a nice person, but they know I won’t just tolerate and let them do anything to me. Because I’m not no lawyer, I don’t know the law like the supreme judge, and stuff like that, but I know enough that they won’t just take advantage of me and misuse me and do whatever they want to me and stuff—or anybody else out there, and not in my presence.
 
Doctor: [00:52:28] The thing is… Ah—don’t mind me because sometimes I think back to that time and I…It just takes me other places, because that incident really had me pissed off, because like I said, by the end of that stuff I was looking at jail time, but thankfully because of the cameras and the officers that was there arresting me, actually told the truth about what happened, that’s why I didn’t get arrested and I’m out here now.

Doctor: [00:53:07] That’s why I said not all of them is bad because these officers could have sided with the other officer and went against me, but they told the truth. The officer was in the wrong, what he did. You know, so… Fortunately for that, you know, I’m here today, but that also like changed a lot of me. It changed a lot. But I still don’t like, look at the police the same and stuff you know, because… You’re supposed to be looking at them like somebody you go to for protection, to help you out, and stuff like that. Not someone that you’ve got to fear is they going to try to do harm to you or try to do some kind of do some kind of wrong to you too and stuff, because they don’t like you for some reason.

Lewis: [00:54:12] You had mentioned, also before we started recording, about police officers telling you all folks that were homeless on 125th Street around the Metro North that you had to move, and that they started throwing folks’ property away, in a vacant lot, throwing—like tossing folks’ crates and stuff. Do you mind sharing that?

Doctor: [00:54:41] Yeah, you had a lot of people—I done witness and stuff—quite a few, some of my belongings that I had that the officers threw away because… Being homeless, we didn’t have nowhere to put our stuff, you can’t put it in no locker, you know. We’re homeless! Half of us didn’t even know nothing about how to go about getting food stamps and public assistance and stuff, until we met Picture the Homeless and such people as that.

Doctor: [00:55:13] You know, but… They would come around, and they’ll tell you, “Oh, you can’t leave this stuff here.” … But you have nowhere to put it, and they know you just—a lot of people were displaced, lost their home, or whatever, and have nowhere to go and you have no money, you can’t put this in storage, you… What are you supposed to do with this stuff?

Doctor: [00:55:43] So, most of the people, you see them all day long, you be like this person’s crazy. No, that’s their personal belongings. That’s why you see them with a shopping cart pulling it around the city all day long. Because most of their life is in there, you know. You’d be surprised, you’d look in there, people be having photobooks of their family, children, you know—all kinds of things. I’ve seen people with picture books and stuff from when they got married and stuff like that, holding onto memories and stuff.

Doctor: [00:56:20] And the police just come, “Oh, oh, oh, oh—throw it in the back of the garbage truck.” How are people supposed to react? You know. that’s like me coming in your house and telling you, “You get out of your house, I live here now.” How would you respond? And that’s basically what they’re doing. “You ain’t go nowhere to keep this stuff, so we’re going to throw it in the garbage.” Why not help them, and stuff?  A storage for situations like that, and stuff. They got places for everything else… Helping people with stuff—and some people, like I said, they honestly don’t want it, don’t need it, but some people really do need assistance to put their belongings and stuff because that’s all they have. We be thankful and stuff… Just this past winter, I witnessed so many people, I mean, literally so many people really thankful for the coat drives, and food… It’s like it’s crazy right now out there.

Doctor: [00:57:41] I don’t know, people and they… It’s not being spoke about and stuff because they say, [imitates voice] “Hey, they’re the homeless, they don’t count!” Well, but I’m here to say we do count, we’re always going to count. As long as there’s one who is out there, we count. We’re human beings, you know? We want to be loved just like everybody else… Some people just need a little encouragement, some people may just need a little help! But a lot of people are just too afraid to ask for it and stuff because of how people look at them, and they respond, and talk, and treat them and stuff, you know?

Doctor: [00:58:35] Would you feel comfortable going to ask somebody for something to eat if they’re going to laugh at you, and snicker, and talk about you and stuff, the minute you turn your back to everybody else? Nobody want—you’re ain’t going to go back in nowhere you feel… Feeling bad already that you have to go there and ask for something to eat and stuff. And then for people to laugh at you, and you know that you’re better, and that you came from something better, and you’re better than what the situation you’re in, and people laugh and put you down and stuff? And these are the same people, like I said… The next day they could be wearing the same shoes you’re wearing. Because at one point… As the world passed, and I was the same way—see a homeless person, I didn’t disrespect them or nothing like that… But I didn’t fully understand what they were going through because I wasn’t living that life.

Doctor: [00:59:39] And till it actually happened to me, I couldn’t fully understand what it really meant and means to have people such as you and Picture the Homeless, other people—CUCS, that people still care for other people. And God, they were like—Nikita… after this thing with Picture the Homeless and the funding and stuff for the place, they’re about to lose it… He still came in and gave out of his life to try to keep the door open, and kept keeping the door open so the people have somewhere during the day to come and just warm up, or look at a little TV, or get some information, or use a phone that reach their family… They don’t have none of that.
 
Doctor: [01:00:37] And… Leave it up to… There are a lot of people—they want to take that away from us now, especially around there. They basically don’t even want a homeless person on 125th and Park Avenue area because they’ve got all these new construction buildings and everything going on around there, and they basically—they’re chasing everybody from the Eastside to the Westside. That’s what they’re really trying to do. They’re trying to push everybody from the Eastside to the West, and then—I… From there, I don’t know where… they—I don’t know. But… There has got to be a better solution than what they’re doing now.

Lewis: [01:01:24] You know, one of the things that I think is always very important at Picture the Homeless, and you just mentioned that word, is solutions, because everybody can agree that nobody wants to sleep on the street, but what’s the solution. And so, you had—going back to something you mentioned earlier about when you first heard about Picture the Homeless, you thought it was just for publicity. Or, you know… When you first started coming, what was the office like? Could you describe what the office was like? What it felt like, what it looked like?

Doctor: [01:02:08] When I first came there, it was pretty much like any other place you go to. You don’t know what to expect, but you’re looking to expect something. [Laughs] Like they capturing and they’re holding your attention, but you don’t know what it is. And the whole thing was it was always there the whole time when y’all opened the door. It wasn’t like the material things that was inside, it was the people that was inside that was the most important thing in there. Because there was the love and the help that y’all was giving everybody that gave all of us the hope and stuff, because a lot of people there—the ones out there—they was literally starting to like, really give up… Until Picture the Homeless came around and stuff, and they seen that they had people that cared for them, and a place where they could go warm up, or somebody offer them a cup of coffee, and they wasn’t being judged. That’s why a lot of people don’t try to ask for assistance, or they just keep going the way they go because they don’t want to be judged, so they don’t come to ask nobody for help.

Lewis: [01:03:40] Now, all of those things, the coffee, and the love, and the friendliness, the bathrooms, all of these things were real important, but at some point you started to coming to Civil Rights meetings…

Doctor: Yeah.

Lewis: And getting involved in that part of the work. Do you… Could you describe what the Civil Rights meetings were like, and what kinds of things folks were discussing, or why it was important for you to go?

Doctor: [01:04:16] Well… As far as with meetings, I say with the Civil Rights like movement and stuff with Picture the Homeless, was—like I said… Coming from a family—like I said—went to school, parents too care of us and everything, and then to end up homeless and see what the people was going through, and how they was being treated, and knowing I didn’t want to be treated that way… I just felt that, like I said—if I didn’t go to the meeting and speak up for the people that was sleeping out there on the street with me, and… Some of us, like I said—some of them, they had drug problems, some of them like mental problems, stuff like that—so they couldn’t really verbally express theirself—or like they wasn’t welcomed because of their hygiene wasn’t on par, and people always downplaying them and stuff like that.
 
Doctor: [01:05:21] And so, they would come to me and talk to me, and I… Because they would see I would honestly listen to them, you know. And I’d tell them, “You tell me, I will go and relay this to the people for us, for you, for us, and let them know.” Because like I said, somebody got to speak up, and if I didn’t do it… Because I said, no telling how long it would have took before somebody else to come along and say, “I’ll step up and do it.” Like I said, you can’t—certain things you can’t wait on others to do when you know you could do it yourself.
 
Lewis: [01:06:02] So, we… Right before we moved back to Harlem, we worked for a couple of years with Communities united for Police Reform, to get two laws passed. One, was a law prohibiting the police department from profiling people because they were homeless. And the other law, was to establish the office of the Inspector General, somebody to monitor the NYPD.

Lewis: [01:06:36] And… We moved back to Harlem, and we see this increased police presence, like you mentioned, Spring 2016, and so, we start talking to y’all, y’all start coming to meetings, you join the staff, and we start documenting what the police are doing. People are filing complaints with the CCRB, going to press conferences, speaking out. You were one of the people

Doctor: Uh-huh.

Lewis: who started speaking in public down in front of City Hall. What was that like for you to do that?

Doctor: [01:07:17] Me? Honestly, I would say it made me feel good to know that I was giving back and stuff—helping, when people helped me out, you know. And it was my turn that I could give a helping hand and stuff, and it made me feel good. And then, like I said, just from the upbringing that I had, caring for other people, and then to see people living like that, and going through it with them, and stuff. Like I said, I just felt that somebody had to speak out, and let it be known what we’re going through.

Doctor: [01:08:03] And like I said, I was talking to somebody this morning—this homelessness is not just here in New York, this is around the world! You know, we’ve got people in all parts of the world that are homeless, and some situations they’re far worse than we are right here in New York and stuff, because they’re out there in bushes, and dirt, and no electricity, nothing—and surviving, and doing way better than half of us in the city with every technology we could possibly have. But we just got to be mindful—put God first and everything else will fall in place.

Lewis: [01:08:53] You know, one of my favorite memories of you, Doc, in action, was when we went and met with the Inspector General of the NYPD. And we went downtown, and they had the big fancy meeting room, and there were other groups from Communities United for Police Reform, and some lawyers there, and you and Floyd Parks went. And before we went, you know, we had to—we were meeting and talking about what we were going to do, and saying—and you were, I wouldn’t say you were shy, because I don’t know how you were feeling, but you were being kind of quiet. And then we get in that meeting, and there was the Inspector General, Philip Eure, and he had all of his staff, they’re all lawyers, and we’re all sitting around this big table. And you weren’t saying anything.

Lewis: [01:09:55] And they were kind of like, “Well, you know, we have to look into this...” And then your whole vibe, your whole tone changed, and you said, “My name is James Doctor, and I want to know who gave the order for the cops to throw my stuff away.” And you just—everything just stopped when you said that. And it was very moving for everybody there because you put them on the spot, and you made it be about you’re a real person, so we’re not talking about laws and stuff, we’re talking about how they affect people, and that people have rights. And I’ll never forget that. I don’t know if you remember that moment, but I think it had a big impact on everybody that was there.

Lewis: [01:10:51] And so, when you’re talking to other people, other homeless folks that aren’t that involved, you know, how do you encourage them to stand up and start to speak for themselves?

Doctor: [01:11:09] You know me, the first thing I do Lynn, honestly, is like I say, I always try to look at both sides of the story, and stuff. I try to see myself living both sides and stuff, so… Like you said, when we was at the meeting I’d sit back and I’m listening and I observe and stuff, before I speak, because I wanted to make sure when I talk that I’m not just speaking nonsense, and I want to make myself clear so there’s no misunderstanding of what I’m trying to like put across to—

Doctor: [01:11:53] Especially with the police—like when they were throwing our property and stuff away, you know? They was trying to use like the textbook terms to go around and avoid the question, which was the real problem, like, “When did y’all okay for y’all to just come out and throw peoples’ stuff away like that?” Like y’all are the garbage company, you know, and we just put our stuff out there to be thrown away. When, in other words, you basically like—even though we don’t have no four walls—you broke in our house, and you stole our belongings, and threw it away! Or took it from us. Because we didn’t give you permission to throw it away, we didn’t put it out there ourselves.

Doctor: [01:12:47] So, who gave y’all the right to do this. That was my bottom—the whole point to the question was who appointed them like in chief, in control of my property, my life, my belongings and stuff, without asking me.

Lewis: [01:13:11] Well, it was a powerful moment because you made the whole conversation more real, and I think it’s an example of why your leadership, and the leadership of people who are homeless is really crucial, that people should not be having meetings talking about homeless people—that homeless people have to be in these meetings.

Doctor: Yeah, that’s true.

Lewis: [01:13:37] One of the other things that you’re involved with that was really, really, and still is really important, and could have an impact around the country, is the profiling bill that we got passed that—it was the first one in the country that listed housing status. So, whether you’re homeless, or live in public housing, or what have you, gives the police no reason to come up and come up on people and tell you to move, or do anything to you unless you ask for help.

Doctor: Yeah, that’s true.

Lewis: [01:14:11] And so… There is a lawsuit pending with the Human Rights Commission— because Picture the Homeless was able to document, with your help, and other folks who were homeless, that the police were profiling you, telling people to move on, throwing your stuff away.

Lewis: [01:14:33] And recently I know you gave an explanation to the board—because the NYPD is not negotiating in good faith with Picture the Homeless and the Human Rights Commission. What was your thought process for why you came to the conclusion that Picture the Homeless should not settle with the NYPD and take what they’re offering, and that we should go to trial? What’s your thought process around that?

Doctor: [01:15:05] Honestly, Lynn, that there, like I said, because… Haven’t nothing changed. You know, since you left from Picture the Homeless, and I got my place and stuff like that, but really nothing have changed. They still doing the same thing. They come around and they’re profiling the homeless people—because I witness, basically almost every day, they’ll come and say like… We’d be standing there, and we’re at the bus stop, people waiting on the bus, just standing there. They’ll look past the people at the bus stop, but they’re looking at the people like, “Oh, look how he’s dressed. Oh look, he ain’t shaved right.” And stuff, you know… And they’ll walk past all the people on the thing just to come and tell the person, “Oh, you can’t stay here, you got to move.” The people on the bus stop ain’t saying nothing to them, why is you telling him he can’t lean against a building, and stuff like that? He ain’t bothering nobody and around… Just because he don’t look right in the picture and stuff, you want to tell him he can’t stand there? Come on. That ain’t right—and that’s what they’re doing.

Doctor: [01:16:24] So, I don’t know what it is with their commanding officers telling them to do, where it’s coming from, but… Maybe make their job easy so they don’t have to like, patrol and look, and make sure nobody hurt the homeless people and stuff like that… Come on. You can’t just tell them that, “Oh, go down there... ” And stuff because you don’t like to do your job. They can go down there and get hurt too!

Doctor: [01:16:55] It doesn’t matter where he’s at, because half of the time they keep telling these people to, “Go here, go there.” And then half an hour later, what they doing? They’re right back talking to the same individuals and stuff, because this is where they’re from, this is all they know… If you don’t want them on the corner, give them something to do. Give us an opportunity. You’re talking about—it’s so many Lynn—it’s so many ways y’all can help them with funding to help the homeless people to install self-pride and give them that inspiration to want to get back in the workforce, get off the street, and stuff like that.

Doctor: [01:17:41] But we can’t do it because nobody willing to help us from— that’s already there! They’re just like, “They’re homeless, put them out back with the trash and stuff, they’ll be all right.” And forget about us, and stuff. Until the smell starts stinking up your house, and then you’re like, “Who left that back there?” You left it back there, you fool! You forgot! You’re the one who told them to leave me on the corner when the bus was pulling off, you know.

Lewis: [01:18:13] Once, before CUCS opened up the shelter on 119, there was neighborhood folks protesting that they shouldn’t—they didn’t want to have a shelter there. And some of us went over there, we made signs saying, “We’re your neighbors too.”

Doctor: Uh-Humm.

Lewis: Something like that… They ended up opening the shelter, but there was a lot of neighborhood opposition, so even though there were a lot of homeless folks in East Harlem on 125th, and 116th, and Marcus Garvey Park, when CUCS opened up the shelter, the neighborhood also started complaining saying, “We don’t want the shelter here. Put it somewhere else.”

Lewis: [01:19:05] And so, for people that—for homeless folks that are on the street when neighbors, not just the police, but also the neighborhood is saying, we don’t want you here… When we walked over there with those signs, I think it was you and Anthony—there was a couple folks who had jobs and they couldn’t afford rent anywhere. And so, we went over there, and there was some press there, and we were interviewed. How was it for you being part of that? Where we’re actually saying to the neighborhood, “We’re your neighbors too. We’re part of the community.”

Doctor: [01:19:57] That’s… I’m glad you brought that up too, Lynn, because that’s a real important part is dealing with the homelessness because this is your neighbor. You know what I’m saying? This is someone’s mother, father, son, child, but this is your neighbor at the end of the day whether he’s sleeping indoors, or out on the street. This is a person that you probably pass by every day on your way going to work, or coming home from getting your kids from school and stuff like that… That can be the same person that, if an incident happen—might save your life! And you don’t even know it because, so many people look and profile the homeless people as being these bad people, that they think every time you go around them, they’re trying to rob you, or hurt you, or do something bad to you… That you don’t know a lot of them have good intentions for them and stuff, but they talk and treat them with disrespect because of how they talk and treated to them—for them being homeless. Or because they wasn’t able to take a shower, and may have a little… You want to act like, “I’m better… “ No, For any reason, any circumstance—you got always remember, at any given moment you can end up in that individual’s shoes. So, you’ve got to be mindful. That’s why I always tell myself, treat people how you want to be treated.

Lewis: [01:21:44] You know, that was one of the… When people ask me what my, like, favorite motto or philosophy is, I always say The Golden Rule, do unto others—

Doctor: As you have them done unto you.

Lewis: [01:22:00] Yeah. So, you know, what you’re saying really resonates with me. And I think that—you know, that was one of the reasons that when we hired you, because you had that—you brought that, those values. And as a member, and a staff member of Picture the Homeless, what would you say is important for people who want to help, or want to work at a homeless service organization, besides the kindness and respect, like, what advice would you give people based on your own experience working at Picture the Homeless?

Doctor: [01:22:51] I’d say, when it comes to dealing, as far as dealing with the homeless people, don’t let your self-pride stand in your way. Like to feel better than the individual, and stuff. Like I said, I always constantly say, constantly, “I can end up in their shoes, they can end up in my shoes at any given moment, any given day.” And I’m just thankful that you have people such as yourself working through agencies, Picture the Homeless and stuff, that comes out and just encourages people not to give up. Like yes, even though I don’t know you, I still got love in my heart for you. You know what I’m saying? I want to see you do good, just like I’m doing. You know what I’m saying?

Doctor: [01:23:56] But, if we don’t let this be known, we might as well just go ahead and just tear all the buildings down and just give up, because eventually… What are you going to do if the homeless, the people that’s homeless now, stop fighting and give up? If someone else get into a bad predicament and become homeless, what do they have to look forward to? They’re just going to become homeless and give up—or become homeless, but it’s just still a fight to get back on their feet, and stuff, you know—and not give up.

Doctor: [01:24:44] So, you’ve got to always let them know, life is not going to always be sunshine and roses, and flowers, and everything you want it, you’ve got to go through the rain, the hard, the cold, the hot. But as long as you don’t give up, and you know you’ve got somebody out there that love and care, and believe in you, and stuff—it makes a big, big difference. You know, a lot of people—going about their life, and that’s just what I try to do.

Doctor: [01:25:21] As far as me, I just try to let people know, like—don’t give up. I didn’t give up. People such as you, Lynn, didn’t give up on me, even when I didn’t even know you and stuff, you still didn’t give up on me, and you didn’t know me. You didn’t have to say hi to me or nothing like that, but you let me know that somebody out there says, “You’re worth it, you’re still loved, and you can do what you came to do. Just don’t give up. Pick your head up.” And that’s all I try to give, because that’s all I need—was just somebody to say, “Yo, I got your back. I’m here and stuff, bro.”

Lewis: [01:26:09] You know, one of the things that I think made a big difference for Picture the Homeless, was to become part of a larger movement, because that way we had other groups to have our back. And so, could you share a time when you started going to meetings, and protests, and press conferences and stuff through Picture the Homeless, where there were other groups there, and what that was like?

Doctor: [01:26:48] Yeah, well… I mean, let me see…  I mean, I don’t know… We went to one of the rallies, but… Speaking for myself, I feel good to see that there were like so many different organizations and walks of life that—behind closed doors was coming together trying to fight a disease. Because homelessness is like a disease. And if we don’t try to find a cure to stop it, it’s going to keep spreading and spreading and stuff.

Doctor: [01:27:34] [Long pause] Excuse me… I just get so emotional sometimes that when I, when I be thinking, and... Because like I said, it wasn’t… My life wasn’t all glamourous, but it wasn’t all bad. I’ve been through some things, but it’s still every time I… I just think and stuff, about the homeless situation, and everything that’s going on, I just thank God—that one day more here in life and being able to speak out about it when I need to, and help somebody if I can… It’s just so much, man.

Lewis: [01:28:27] So, to switch up a little bit, we also had a lot of parties and events that I remember you at. I remember you cooking in the office. And I remember we had a big party at the National Black Theatre, around the corner from the office that you and Chyna came to, we had a DJ. And so, you know, it wasn’t all meetings and protests and stuff

Doctor: Hmmm.

Lewis: all of the time.

Doctor: No.

Lewis: Could you share some other kinds of memories that you had of maybe some fun times in the office.

Doctor: Yeah.

Lewis: Or what that was like?
 
Doctor: [01:29:08] No, we had plenty of fun times! Just right—even, like when you was there, even now, and stuff—like somedays the guys coming in just to laugh and joke, and they got TV on… Yeah, Picture the Homeless, yeah, have plenty, even now still have plenty of fun. Like I said, by the doors being open and stuff… I watch the guys, they honestly be looking for them to come and open up the gate, so they have somewhere to go just to sit down and feel safe, you know—take a nap, or so now they go there and just use the microwave, borrow the microwave to warm up some food or something to eat. And that means a lot! And just to have a place where you can just go and you know you could laugh and joke with your friends and stuff, and you don’t go to worry about nobody doing nothing to do you, or nobody trying to take nothing from you, and stuff. That’s great, that’s great.
 
Doctor: [01:30:11] I was telling Nikita, before I was with Picture the Homeless, that’s like one of the things we can do and maybe even talk to them—like they talking about, [imitates voice] “Oh, we’ve got no place for them to go… “ We got so many homeless people that got carpentry, electrical, or plumbing skills, and stuff like that—and we used to get together, all these buildings they’re talking about, “They don’t go no place… “ We could get these people—they give us the funding and fix these places up, and then they appreciate moving and living in there, because you built it yourself! You helped participate in making a place for you to live, so you’re going to appreciate and cherish that even more. And then you take that, and you’re going to pass it on to the next person, and it’s a domino effect. Then everybody going to cherish it when they see how much more will come up out of that, just that one small thing.

Doctor: [01:31:13] And they… No reason for them to say, “People ain’t got nowhere to go… “ Or no reason to be happening… We got too many places when they’re talking about, “They ain’t got nothing to do.” Tell them if they stop being scared of the homeless people and talk to us like we’re normal people, they’ll find out! They got a lot of brilliant ideas that can help solve a lot of the problems dealing with the homeless people—and just in ordinary stuff.

Doctor: [01:31:49] But unless we start, like, constantly communicating, they’ll never tell you… Like, when you said, just… Come to a party, give a bag of chips and a bottle of water, play some stickball with us, or something. That make a person at the end of day you’d be surprised how many times I got back, and they’d be, “Oh Doc! Yeah, we had—wow, it was the joint!” They had a good time just to be able to get away for a few moments out of the day and have some fun, and really laugh and stuff without people judging you, and stuff or, you know, or trying to put you down. That means a lot to them.

Doctor: [01:32:31] That’s what I’m saying, I was telling… I want to see the kids play—like Tops, and I don’t see the kids out there—when I was growing up they used to play the Double-Dutch in the streets. You don’t see the—you can’t even do that no more, and stuff.

Lewis: [01:32:47] You know, it’s so interesting that you’re saying that about people that aren’t homeless to come and spend time with homeless folks, like just do regular things that you would do with your friends and your neighbors. Because some of the people that I’ve interviewed for this—that are like political allies, people from other organizations, that’s one of the things they always say. They always say that, because of Picture the Homeless they were actually able to just spend time outside of meetings, to be in meetings, but also outside of meetings, come to parties, they always talk about how Picture the Homeless members are always like the life of the party. And that changes how they think about homeless people, just spending time.

Lewis: [01:33:42] And so, with the office, you know—we’ve had a lot of events there in the backyard and stuff, people coming in, and Picture the Homeless members cooking, staff cooking… What would you say to other folks maybe that were outside, that were still staying outside, that weren’t that involved in the office? What kinds of things would you say to people, to other homeless folks, to encourage them to come in and spend time in the office?

Doctor: [01:34:17] Me. I would tell them, “Don’t be afraid. I know it can be scary, everything is scary. Even a child’s first step is scary. But until you take a chance and take that step—come, and see that these are, like I said, these are ordinary people, the same way like if you were going to your job, or the neighbor next door to you, and stuff, that you sit and drink your beer, this is ordinary people that laugh and cry the same as you do, have hope and dreams the same as you, and for whatever reason that we end up homeless or in the situation that we’re in… There’s no reason to like make them feel less than, or unappreciated and not wanted and stuff.

Doctor: [01:35:20] And that’s what Picture the Homeless gave to the homeless and the people in their community there—because you opened up the door and let them see that—y’all not judgmental and holding them not accountable for nothing they did in their past, but what they did when they came through that door and moving forward in the future. That’s all that really mattered. [Imitates voice] “Oh, your bad habits… Your past—you leave that at the door, throw it in the garbage in the street, if you want to.

Doctor: [01:36:01] If you’re want to come in and sit down and talk to somebody, and help with issues from your past or whatever, you’re supposed to feel welcome, and Picture the Homeless did that, and stuff, you know— made people feel welcome that they could come in there and sit down and talk to you, and Nikita, and the staff without them judging them, or making them feel less than and stuff—to where they didn’t come back the next day.

Doctor: [01:36:32] A lot of them came back the next day because the staff and people of Picture the Homeless made them feel welcome, so, [imitates voice] “You know what? I’m going around there… Because I know they’re going to treat me like a normal person, and I don’t have to look over my shoulder, or this and that, or worry about being disrespected.” And that’s why even until today, they still, “Doc—did Picture the Homeless, they open? You know—Nikita’s coming in today?” They look forward for that gate to go up! Somedays I walk and peep down the corner and still see if the gate up and stuff.
 
Doctor: [01:37:18] Certain situations… Never know—because I was telling Nikita this past winter, one minute it’s like forty, fifty degrees—half an hour later, it’s twenty degrees outside, and stuff… And a lot of them didn’t have nowhere to go, and the rain starting… But they feel good, just for a half an hour if they went and was able to sit inside there, out the rain, out the cold, and stuff—and get their mind together, of what next to do throughout the day, or what they’re going to do.

Doctor: [01:37:49] But… Without the organizations like Picture the Homeless, and the staff members and stuff, you might as well take them out back, put a bullet in their head, and throw them in the ditch, and put the dirt on them and stuff! That’s what they’re going to do, they’re going to stack them up at the curb, like the trash because... I was telling Nikita, I said, “Why it seem like everybody that… Basically you have nowhere to go, getting out of the prison system or whatever, and stuff like that—they always send them to Manhattan, and New York, but it’s like they don’t want to offer no resources for the person to try to help themself improve theirself, and stuff.  You know, because everybody, [imitates voice] “Oh, he’s homeless… He ain’t… And he’s… here… “ And they turn their back on him.  
 
Doctor: [01:38:59] And all it takes, one little helping hand as you did with me, Nikita, and change my whole life again, from me being like, [imitates voice] “Know what? I don’t care… They… And I’m this, I’m… “ To like, “Know what? You’re losing yourself, that’s not what you were put here for, you know. And this person God sent to remind you that this is not you.” And I thank you all for that. And like I said, everyday—I constantly remind them, and stuff, “Just be thankful that you woke up today because you’re not promised that. You’re not even promised to make it through the day, so just do the best with what you can throughout the day while you’re here.”

Lewis: [01:39:32] Well, you know Doc, one of the things that Picture the Homeless always tried to do is—with folks that made the decision to take on more of a leadership role, like you did, and go to trainings. So, we had a lot of trainings at Picture the Homeless. And I remember one weekend we spent the whole weekend in the office, it was like two days of trainings, there was a whole bunch of people there from outside the organization, little workshops, and stuff. Do you, can you think of things you learned at Picture the Homeless about organizing, and about social change?

Doctor: [01:40:36] Let me see… One of the biggest things I learned, being involved with Picture the Homeless was unity, Lynn… You know, because y’all showed everybody like together we can accomplish so much more than one person standing out there trying to fight a war against a thousand, and stuff—it’s not going to happen. But… just that one person standing out there and letting them know like, “This ain’t right.” You best believe, there’s somebody else in that crowd too feel the same way as that person. And it’s, like I said, the domino effect, and eventually everybody’s going to come out, “No. This is not right. This is not right. We got to do something about it.

Doctor: [01:41:30] But if we don’t have Picture the Homeless, and CUCS, and people such as yourself that continue to let people know that—even though we homeless, or was homeless, whatever, we’re still human beings and stuff. We still deserve to be treated with respect. We still want people to say that… You’re loved. You made a mistake, we’re here, we’re going to help you try and get it right, and stuff, if you want to, but don’t give up on yourself. If we gave up in seventeen… There wouldn’t be no America! To tell you the truth, if every man just gave up, there wouldn’t be no America. People all along through history and everything, it’s one person who said, “Know what? Enough is enough.” And that’s all it took to change the whole history and life.

Lewis: [01:42:40] No, it’s so true. And the power of people taking collective action—you know? To be able to stand up is one thing, but to know that people have your back gives you courage, right?

Doctor: Hmmm

Lewis: Gives you more courage. But I remember, you know—getting to that point of unity sometimes can be hard because sometimes people disagree, everybody’s not on the same page, people don’t have the same analysis… Not everybody cares about other people, some people just care about themselves…

Doctor: Yeah. That’s true.

Lewis: [01:43:22] So, we’re trying to create unity with people who maybe are dealing with the same problem, homelessness, but that doesn’t mean that everybody that’s homeless has the same opinion. And so, how did you… I know that besides meetings in the office, outside of the office there were a lot of conversations about… Are we going to go to this protest, some people are maybe saying it’s not going to do anything, it’s not going to work. How do we get to the point of unity to actually being able to do something? Do you remember, do you have any memories of times at Picture the Homeless that there was disagreement, and then we got to a point of unity, and how that happened?

Doctor: [01:44:23] [Sighs] Well I know at Picture the Homeless, I have a memory, a couple of meetings I’ve been in, and they were like chaotic with disagreement and stuff, you know, I guess. But that’s, like you said, not everybody have the same opinion, not everybody sees eye to eye, so of course there’s going to be a disagreement, you know, here and there, and stuff, so…
 
Doctor: [01:44:53] But it was just that… Picture the Homeless, like, taught everybody like—first breathe, and hear what the person’s saying, and then respond, and like—listen. You don’t have to agree with them, but if you listen to them, at least you understand them, so you know how to better deal with them, and y’all can come to a better solution toward the problem and stuff. But you’re not going to get there if everybody’s just running off, loud mouthing, and ain’t nobody listening to one another. That is one, like I said, one of the things that Picture the Homeless taught me and stuff—was don’t forget the unity, because there’s no little me, no big I’s, and stuff, it’s we, and together as a whole is how we’re going to get it accomplished.

Doctor: [01:45:57] We’re saying, one person, and stuff… They got it started… But they can’t complete it because it takes more than just one, more than one—but like… What I’m trying to say is it’s going to take one person to speak and bring the problem out, but it’s going to take a whole group to make the solution and solve the problem to fix whatever the problem was. But unless we sit down and talk to each other, we don’t know what the problem is, or how to fix the problem.
 
Lewis: [01:46:40] That’s all so true. Are there… When you think about Picture the Homeless, are there particular memories that you have that make you smile, or the things that you think about that warm your heart, that you’d like to share?

Doctor: [01:47:01] I thinking of Picture of Homeless… Well, shit, now I can’t—ain’t nothing I can and stuff… From when I met you and Nikita, all of them warmed my heart! I tell you the truth, and stuff. I don’t have nothing bad to say about Picture the Homeless. Like I said—greatest thing to come along, one of the greatest things in my life to come along, and forget the rest of them, [laughs] that’s their problem. I’m Picture the Homeless for life. Anyway, but yeah, just like interacting, meeting you and Nikita, and like, a lot of people, and just knowing that there was somebody else out there and stuff, that cared, and was thinking like I was thinking… Like it’s not all right, what can we do to try and fix this and stuff and make things better. It made a difference. Believe me, it made a difference.

Lewis: [01:48:06] Now, you mentioned that, you know, one of the other things that Picture the Homeless did, you have a place now… What were the ways that Picture the Homeless helped you find out about services that you were eligible for? Helped you apply? How did Picture the Homeless help you in that way?

Doctor: [01:48:31] Well, like I said, like—me, basically like, coming from—like I said, good family, and worked, and stuff like that. Like, I didn’t really know and understand too much about being homeless, because like I said, I wasn’t living it, I didn’t have family members that were going and doing this stuff. As far as I know, I probably was the first one that ever experienced it in my family, and stuff, you know, so... Like… [long pause] I’m trying to think how to explain. But I got to get back on that one.

Lewis: [01:49:30] All right. Do you have any parting thoughts before we wrap up?

Doctor: Parting thoughts? Well, as far as I’m concerned, I just want to say—thank you Lynn, and Picture the Homeless, and the staff members, and like I said, the board, because like I said… We all thought the place was getting ready to be closed, wasn’t even going to be there no more, and stuff. Until I—speaking with Nikita, he told me, and I met with the board and they’re still… I’m like—but… It’s thanks to Picture the Homeless and stuff, that—like I said—I’m not in no cemetery somewhere or locked in no prison cell and stuff. And I got back in touch with my family, I have somewhere to go, and y’all introduced me to agencies, and stuff like that, y’all gave me a place, a phone line, like if they need to reach me or something like that, like y’all was like, “Okay, you can use this number, and we can take a message for you.” A lot of places, they don’t do that. A lot of people don’t care about you.

Doctor: [01:50:55] And, that’s basically like—a lot of people just need help, and just another stepping stone to get started again. They just need a little foundation somewhere and get them started again, and stuff, and that’s what Picture the Homeless did. It gave us somewhere, a foundation to start again, you know... Like okay, I know I’ve got these people here backing, believing in me, and with them I can do many things. You’ve seen me—I’m always being a nuisance and paying two respects to the police as long as they’re bothering the homeless and stuff. Like I said, I’m homeless for life. I ain’t going nowhere. I’ll always be around. So…

Lewis: All right, well, thank you, Doc.

Doctor: [01:51:54] Thank you, and thank Picture the Homeless and I just hope something can come out of this, you know… We go international, take it across the world, or whatever. I—hey, I’m with it! I don’t care if we’re—internet, take it mainstream—whatever. Like, it’s got to be known! It’s part of life. Like now, this thing with this tornado thing just destroyed this… Like [sighs] I can’t even imagine like, what these people what they’re going through right now, so... Crazy. I know this—crazy.

Lewis: All right, well, we’ll see you soon?

Doctor: [01:52:46] Yes! You know, now always call me—if you need me or anything, to go protest, whatever, you know I’m with the movement, I’m now Picture the Homeless for life, I have to say, and so...

Lewis: Far out, thanks, Doc.

Doctor: Okay, thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]