DeBoRah Dickerson (Interview 2)

Lewis: [00:00:02] Good afternoon.

Dickerson: Good afternoon.

Lewis: I’m Lynn Lewis, here with DeBoRah Dickerson, for our second interview, for the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project, and it is February 13, 2020. Hi DeBoRah.

Dickerson: Hi. [Smiles]

Lewis: How are you?

Dickerson: I’m good. I’m good.

Lewis: On this rainy, chilly—

Dickerson: Day. [Laughs]

Lewis: Day. [Smiles] Well, we’re going to make it—it’s cold outside, but our hearts are warm in here.

Dickerson: Yes.

Lewis: [00:00:34] There were quite a few things from your first interview that I think would be really, really interesting to go a little deeper with. And so, one of the things, when I was reviewing your transcripts, and you had mentioned—you spent a large chunk of your youth in Crown Heights, in a railroad apartment. And now you’re back in Crown Heights. Nearby?

Dickerson: Nearby.

Lewis: [00:01:09] What is it like for you as a Brooklynite? You know, how has Brooklyn changed since you lived there as a youth with your mom?

Dickerson: Wow, I would say it’s somewhat of a cultural shock. The area where I was raised and grew up is now—is called Weeksville.

Dickerson: [00:01:39] Weeksville was one of the areas where Blacks lived, that was very prominent during that time. It was where a lot of—they had a lot of businesses in that area. And there used to be—I used to walk by Bergen Street, and this used to look like a shack, and there was this lady that, when I would be walking my dog, or my brother—we would walk by—the house looked really tattered and everything. And now that has become an historical landmark, where they also have a museum there. But I remember the lady. I would go by, and I would see this lady, and I would always check on her.

Dickerson: [00:02:27] And later on, as time has gone by, I learnt that this was Weeksville. My godmother, which used to go to Berean Baptist Church—that also was a part of Weeksville, because a lot of the people that attended that church was those that lived in Weeksville. They also had a parish. Now, the church is not as well-attended, and the church has also sold their parking lot.

Dickerson: [00:03:03] So, there have been a lot of changes in Crown Heights—I would say in Brooklyn altogether. A lot of skyscrapers, luxury buildings—downtown just frustrates the daylights out of me… But that’s what you call urban renewal. So, you know, Crown Heights is still holding its own, and I still—that’s home for me, you know? That’s where I grew up. The hospital where my brother was born and died in—now that’s going to become a commercial building. So, I’m like, I’m glad finally they did that, because it sat there for so many years. A lot of years. It was owned by Catholic Charities... So, there’s a lot in Brooklyn that’s going on. Brooklyn is almost becoming like Manhattan.

Lewis: [00:04:02] Okay, I know, part of your history that you shared with us in the first interview is meeting Shirley Chisholm when she was running for Congress. And she had advised you to speak from your heart. And you are an excellent speaker. You describe your mom as being an elegant speaker, and being able to recite the Gettysburg Address, and how important it was for your family that folks spoke well. That diction was important. You’re one of the main leaders—housing campaign leaders—at Picture the Homeless that speaks at public events, on panels about housing—about, now, community land trusts, more and more. And so, is there a lineage, like a legacy that now you embody, descended from women who also were elegant speakers? Or influenced by someone like Shirley Chisholm, who said, “Speak from your heart.” And here you are, today—do you channel them? How does that happen?

Dickerson: [00:05:31] Wow… As I get older, I can feel the spirit of my ancestors—of my ancestors and from my family, we were taught to speak well, and to speak with feeling, and not to bore people, and to have knowledge of what you’re talking about. If you don’t have any knowledge, then sit down and shut up, you know. And it was very important—the women were not bossy women, or very aggressive, but they were women that were very humble, but when they come down to doing things, they got up and they did it. And we would sit around and have conversations.

Dickerson: [00:06:30] I also learned that—my mother told me that one of the deans at Medgar Evers [College] was related to me. That was from my grandmother’s side, and I was like, “Wow.” And, you know, education has always been important, and having knowledge is very, very important. One of my great-aunts went to Livingston College in North Carolina.

Dickerson: [00:06:58] So… When meeting Shirley Chisholm in our political club, which was—it was United Democratic Club, which was located, at that time, on Union and Kingston. Not Union—Lincoln and Kingston. It’s at the corner, and we would come in, and sit down and listen, and we listened to our elders. We would listen to the older ones, and when it got a chance for us to vote, we wanted to know how to vote.

Dickerson: [00:07:40] So, it was important that we understand who the political leaders were in that time. And if you’re going to get in involved in any kind of organization, or group, or community, you need to have some information, so that you can carry this information to other people if they want to join.
Dickerson: [00:07:59] And I find that important, in organizing and being a part of Picture the Homeless. It’s getting information and having research. Researching the people that you’re talking about or having a conversation... Having that dialogue—because if you don’t know anything about them, then you can’t have a conversation with them, or a dialogue with them. So, I find it very important, because I, at one time, wanted to become a teacher. So, I wanted my students to also be well-versed, have knowledge. And knowledge is very, very important because you can have dialogue. That’s why I had been able to go different places to speak with people—which I enjoy. And why I enjoy speaking to them—because I want to learn what they’re doing. I want to see their perception.

Dickerson: [00:09:04] You know, house always looks greener on the other side. But when you really look at the conditions, or the situations, it’s important—and how do we do this in solidarity? And that’s one thing that Picture the Homeless has taught me, “How can we come together and have this dialogue?” And if we have to do a direct action, or protests, or rally—then we know what we’re talking about, because we’ve done the research.

Lewis: [00:09:39] Thank you. I know how important it is for you to prepare when you go and speak in public, and I also know that it produces some kind of—you know, nervousness, anxiety. What are some of the ways that being part of a group like Picture the Homeless has helped you evolve as an accomplished speaker? And in many ways, you’re being a teacher when you’re speaking in public, even if it might not be your job title. [Smiles] But you are teaching. And so, in what ways has Picture the Homeless been important in your own development as a public speaker? A teacher?

Dickerson: [00:10:30] Well, I have three incidents, but I’ll take two of them. One, was when we were preparing for—we were preparing for the count—the first count of Manhattan, and I had to do a press conference. I was working at that time, but still homeless. I was terrified. Oh God, was I really terrified.

Dickerson: [00:10:59] And… I remember Sam [J. Miller], and Tyletha [Samuels], and Roosevelt [Orphee]—and Roosevelt and Sam were very compassionate people. And they said, “We’ll be right here for you. We’ll be right here for you.” You know? And they gave me the information, they sat down. I wrote out what I wanted to speak about, and how we could collaborate with—at that time, Scott Stringer was the Borough President—and I sat down, and I would read. While I was in the shelter, I was trying to read, and study, and practice, and—because I did go to school. I went to college, and I remember one of my professors said, “Get in a mirror and start practicing how you pronounce your words, you know, and looking at your audience, and putting in your mind.”

Dickerson: [00:12:05] And… being there at that press conference was really crazy, because we had a meeting first in the State [Office] Building, and then everybody rushed out the door, and I was the last one, and I was like, “Wow, you better come on, because we’ve got a press conference, and you’ve got to be outside.” So, I was running down the stairs and I was so nervous I thought I was going to throw up. But I looked over and I saw Sam, and I saw Roosevelt, and then I remember Lynn [Lewis]—you touched me on my shoulder and said, “You’re going to be all right, girl.” And I said, “Okay.” And it’s just a calmness came around me.

Dickerson: [00:12:52] You know, having people there in your corner—and it was out of my comfort zone, and when I started to speak, you know, and I said, “Well, we can’t look at the mics”—my professor said, “Look out at something and keep your eyes on that.” And I started to speak, and I just felt something come over me, and I just started to speak. And I heard people cheering, and I’m like, “What they cheering about?” In my mind—and I said, “You can’t lose your composure.” And I remember, he looked at me, he said, “Well spoken.” That made me okay.

Dickerson: [00:13:34] The other time was when—was at the signing of the bill that we had—Housing Not Warehousing—with Mayor [Bill] de Blasio. And it had been a long time.  And I remember sitting there—standing there—and someone said to me, “Wow, it’s been a long time, but look now, we want you to speak.” We had our other director—Mo George was there, and she’s like, “Oh, you can be all right. You’re going to be all right. We’re cheering for you.” And I was like, “Ugh.” You know, my stomach got edgy and everything.

Dickerson: [00:14:26] I talked about how historical it was that homeless people had a bill, and then… And the importance of having this bill—that it took us a long time, but we finally got it. And I wanted to thank Mayor DeBlasio for giving us the opportunity and the chance. Because people think that homeless people are nobodies, that we don’t have no minds, we don’t have vision, we are not educated. And that’s the farthest thing out, you know?

Dickerson: [00:15:08] And just standing there was just a wonderful day. It does make me feel really great. And I could feel my ancestors on my shoulder, and I’m saying, “Well, we didn’t stop.” Because I think about Harriet Tubman—she told her people, “Keep moving.” And that’s what Picture the Homeless has done. Has given us tools where we can keep moving, not just sit there, not just stay there, and speaking about having a home—not housing, but a home—is so important.

Lewis: Could you talk a little bit more about why it’s so important?

Dickerson: [00:16:01] Well, Picture the Homeless has been like a core group for me. One of the groups that I’m involved with, and while I was homeless. I have gotten opportunity to not only just talk in New York City, and other cities, and even going into certain countries.

Dickerson: [00:16:28] People are being put out, people are being thrown out, people are being evicted, people are being pushed out… And that’s important because I think about when we did our count—I thought about all the buildings and the vacant properties that sat for years—I mean, years. And I remember walking down East Harlem and looking and saying, “Hey, man, you know this is a place that we can make a home, we can make a community.”

Dickerson: [00:17:03] And it’s about building communities, because if you have a community, you have a place where you can raise your children, you can buy your food, you can help that Mom and Pop who has a business—where the money stay in the community, and not go to somebody else that’s rich and wants to live in some elaborate, or gated community.

Dickerson: [00:17:29] Where that person… When I was in the shelter—and I remember being in a drop-in center, you sit and your hands swell up, and your feet swell up. That means that you have your home, you’re able to take care of your medical needs, your financial needs, your mental needs, because you have stability. A home is stability. A home is where you can—it’s your sanctuary. And I’ll say this maybe—I call him “The Bump,” who’s now our president—President [Donald John] Trump, The Bump. He has always had privilege; he’s had a home.

Dickerson: [00:18:13] But when you have to go and live in a shelter, or in some kind of city—place—government place—and the places are not kept well, it’s not clean, it’s not sanitary, there’s fights, there’s arguments—there’s all kinds of things—unsanitary conditions. And they say, “Yeah, we’re giving you shelter—but it’s not a home. It’s just temporary.” So, having a home is very, very important, because then your children can be able to grow up and build relationships. And it’s a safe place, you know? You try to make it as safe as possible. That’s what home to me is. Not living in some city bureaucracy—they don’t care.

Lewis: [00:19:13] You had mentioned that when you first got… Not your first apartment, but when you joined Picture the Homeless, you were in a shelter, and then you got an apartment at some point—it took way too long, as I remember—a couple years… But you got an apartment, and you had a housewarming party, and you had mentioned before the interview that you wanted to talk about that a little bit. So, what did the housewarming party mean to you?

Dickerson: [00:19:45] Wow… Wow. I’ve had an apartment before, and I think about it—and matter of fact, it was on February the thirteenth—it was before Valentine’s Day [laughs]—and… At first, you know, Lynn, you mentioned about, “Oh, DeBoRah! You got to have a housewarming.” And I looked at her like, “Housewarming! She must be crazy.” And you put out a little flyer of things that I needed, and my favorite colors—which was purple and blue… And I was cooking food. And it was a studio… And, you know, it was up on the bulletin board, and I’m like, “Okay, yes, let’s see how this go.” And when I started—when I really realized that I was getting a housewarming—it’s something I never had in my life. And it made me feel so wonderful. And I came home, and I was like—that week I said, “I’ve got this housewarming, oh my God.”

Dickerson: [00:21:02] And I called my moms—I called my moms up and I called one of my aunts, I said, “I’m getting a housewarming.” She said, “What?!” I said, “Yeah, Ma, I’m getting a housewarming.” She said, “Oh, that’s beautiful.” I said, “It’s from the organization that I’m involved with.” And, you know, I was cooking—you know, I love to cook. And when I saw people come in the door, and I just… I started to cry because nobody has ever done anything like that for me, and it made me… It made me feel so—so human. Because I was like, “A housewarming!” You know, they brought me things, and I still got some of those things to this day. And I cherish them from my heart. And I’m like, “Wow, that’s the first housewarming I ever had in my life.”

Dickerson: [00:22:03] And I’m like—it makes a big difference, because people are coming in and they’re blessing your house. And we have a saying—my family’s from the South, “You want people to come in and bless your house.” And I just had a wonderful time, you know, it was just really beautiful. And I left out—and it was just so wonderful. It just made me feel like a human being.

Dickerson: [00:22:33] Because when they talk about housing is a human right, that’s very true. Housing is a human right and that’s—when you have been homeless—and I chose to be homeless, I didn’t have to. But I was determined that it was sink or swim, and my family, they were very angry, very annoyed with me... Cousin’s like, “I’ve got a place, you could be down here, they had to—” I said, “No, it’s not the same. I want my own.” So, when I got my place, that housewarming was just so wonderful. We danced, and we laughed, and we giggled, and we ate food, and they bought some—they bought some liquor and I said, “Well, I’m going to do as our ancestors—libations.” And it just made me feel so—so wonderful, just for somebody to think of that. And that’s something I will always cherish until the day I die, because… Those—that’s what you call being human. It makes you feel like you’re a part of this human race.

Dickerson: [00:23:56] Being homeless, people don’t look at you as a human being.

Lewis: How do you think people look at homeless folks?

Dickerson: Wow… Dirty, nasty, stupid, uneducated, undesirable. I remember I was working, and I was working at a—I was doing corporate security, and I was working in the office where Disneyworld owned that building. And they had their offices—their New York office magazine. And I was there and this guy, he found out where I was living at. And I just didn’t want to be bothered, I was just interested in trying to get a place. So, he had been doing some stuff—matter of fact he got—they fired him and he—unfortunately—and he was stealing. So, he came out—and they were getting ready—and he came, and he said in front of other people, “You ain’t nothing but a homeless bitch. You up in the shelter. I saw you. You walking around here like you think you’re Miss Diddy.” I couldn’t say anything, I just cleaned—did my job. And when he said that I just felt everything dropped, and the tears rolled down my eyes, and the supervisor she came to me—manager came to me—and she said, “I want you out of here now.” And she’s, you know—and so she pulled me into her office, and she said, “Miss Dickerson.” I said, “Yes ma’am?” She said, “I don’t care what he says.” She said, “You’re a good worker.” And she says, “We have had less robberies since you have been here.” And she says, “And I believe in you.”  I said, “Wow.” She says, “If there’s anything that you need, just let me know.”

Dickerson: [00:26:43] So, people came by, but you know, to be called “a homeless bitch” was a lot. A lot. I went to apply for a job, I used the shelter’s address, and the interviewer, he told me, “Well, you need to change your address, because that’s a shelter.” I said, “But—” he said, “Yes, you have everything.” He said, “You’re more qualified than a lot of them.” So, there is a certain way that people look at you when you are—when you say you’re homeless, so… Now, I say, “I was homeless, that’s why I help other homeless people.” And I get really indignant when they talk about my homeless brothers and sisters. That’s a fight, best to believe it. Because everybody deserves a chance. If you think people just want to wake up and say they want to be homeless—no sir, that’s not it.

Lewis: [00:27:47] Thank you, DeBoRah. Earlier you had mentioned how you have represented Picture the Homeless out of the country—not just here in New York, or around the country. I know you’ve been to North Carolina, and California, and Rochester—all kinds of places in the States. And you’ve gone to Korea, Germany, Montreal. What does it mean for you, to go from being somebody that someone else is going to offend and curse at—because you don’t have an apartment with a lease with your name on it—to going to South Korea, or Germany, or Montreal, and getting accolades? I remember when you went to Montreal, people that went there all they could do was talk about how much of an impression you made with your remarks—and you sang. [Laughs] What is it like for you to go from that moment with that man, to being—flying halfway across the world, and people waiting to listen to you?

Dickerson: [00:29:07] Wow… Well, one—I must thank God for the opportunity, because he is my higher power. And I had to think about this really deep—this year… Jesus was homeless. People don’t even look at that. You know, Mary and Jesus, they were homeless. We don’t talk about that. I think that’s something I want to explore later on—to remind Christians, you know, Jesus and his parents, they were homeless.

Dickerson: [00:29:55] And you know, I remember the first time that I got my passport—we were going to go to Budapest, right [smiles] and I didn’t go, but I wrote—I like to write poetry, so I sent—some of my poetry was sent and went to Budapest.

And first—I hadn’t been to Canada in years, and it was a caravan of us that went down to Canada, to a women’s conference. We had interpreters, and I got up—I was just sitting there, and I was itching, and I’m like, “I got to get up and say something.” And I heard this—and they were talking about homeless people, and I listened to a woman that was Mohawk—she was representing the Mohawk and the chief—and she was talking about how they were driven off, and then they had a group of people that were in Montreal, and the developers wanted to push them out. And my heart got so heavy. And then there was someone from Africa, and I was like, “Wow.” And [unsure of word, Cherokee?]—I’m not saying it correctly—Cherokee women were talking about how they was pulled out of their homes and taken into this place and separated from their husbands. A lady talked about cigarette burns on her arm. And I’m like, “Oh my God.”

Dickerson: [00:31:33] And I said, “In New York—in the United States this is what’s happening.” And I talked about the homeless situation. I said, “We got to come together. I don’t care what part of the world—we are there—well we got to come together. You know, they do it to you, they going to do it to me. So, we need to stand up and fight back, not just come at this meeting and just sit here like, ‘Oh, just because we’re getting away.’ But there are some really global and universal situations that we must come in agreement and solidarity. Because if you don’t make enough money, then they can push you out, you know. Or if you don’t look like them, they can push you out. Whatever.” And it just really—that really got to me.

Dickerson: [00:33:32] Going to South Korea—I went to South Korea in 2017? No, ’18. And I went there, and I was looking at… I was scared to death. [Laughs] Oh God, I was scared, because I didn’t know whether the Bump would say something, and he was just running his mouth. I said, “Please let that man… ” But I met a lot of people there in South Korea that was educated here in the United States, and they was like, “What’s wrong with him?” Then they started to talk about how he was treating people and making people—putting people out of their homes, and you know, and wealthy, and pushing people away—

Dickerson: [00:33:21] and they had something that I thought was really just wonderful. They said they had some younger people—younger women with their kids—and older people. And they were trying to take their land, and they said the older people came in their wheelchairs and crutches, and they were kind of frail, and they laid down on the ground. And when they tried to pick them—they tried to get them, they would hit them [laughs]—they would hit them, the police, and because the culture is so family orientated, people started to shame the government because now you’re trying to push these people off their land that they lived here so long, now you want to push them away.

Dickerson: [00:34:06] And it’s almost the same thing now, that we talk about community land trusts because this is one way that we can help our housing situation, the lack of housing... They say, “Affordable,” but affordable for who? And you know, I look at that and I’m like—community land trusts, they have it in Germany, they have it in other countries, and they have it here, in the United States—is beginning to catch up with it. But it is something to keep us stable. To keep the community stable. Because some of the Mom and Pops in some communities, they have been there for years! Now, all of a sudden, you got some plan, you want to push them out. So, going there to see what—how they were doing, how the developers was doing, what they were saying. It made… I came back, I was so humble—I was so humble in my heart, just—I came home, and I cried, you know. And I said, “God, I thank you for what I got. No, it hasn’t been easy.”

Dickerson: [00:35:19] And I thought about… When I was homeless, my mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, and they were trying to—some family was trying to put her in a nursing home—she did wind up going in a nursing home. But at that particular time, I wanted to take care of my moms. And you know—just that, trying to take care of your elderly parents was important. And they talked about that, where the developers come, and they figure they’re going push them out. “Oh, we’ll put you in some little, small place.” They want to stay there. That’s what they know! You know, the grow their food, they don’t bother nobody. They’ve been there. They want to die there. Why you bothering them? So, I think about that. You know, I think about that. Some places they just… Just have done some crazy stuff.

Dickerson: [00:36:19] So, we really have to come together and be on the up and up. If they say, “Go left,” we go right, you know. They say—they say they want to take us out, we go occupy it. We can build up our communities, you know—because we know how to do it.

Dickerson: [00:36:40] Homeless people—you think—like I say, you think you want to wake up and be homeless? No! It's a hard life. It’s real poverty! People don’t talk about when you’re homeless, you live in poverty! And it hurts to be in poverty. Not having enough money, just a little bit of money. Some of them… You might get a hundred dollars, a hundred dollars or less than that.

Lewis: A month?

Dickerson: A month! You know, so, I mean, that’s poverty! How could you sit and see somebody not have enough money to take care of themselves and their family?

Dickerson: [00:37:25] So, I just… Going to the other countries gave me another vision—gave me insight. I would love to go to Geneva, or even to… I’ve gone to the churches of the United Nations, to listen to some of the things that are going on there, you know. In some places they pollute the land, and then people still live there! So, I mean, we got to unite! We got to come together. We got to fight back. We can’t just sit there! We sit there, we’re going to die. And that means our children die. And I don’t have no kids, but I’m not going to let no kid die. I’m not going to let no older person die, because they have worked a long time, and put a lot of contributions into the—into society.

Lewis: [00:038:26] You know, you’re reminding me of what I’ve heard other long-time Picture the Homeless leaders say—and that is your concern for others. Even while you were  homeless, and you needed an apartment, you were looking for something to do that would make the city better. Right? You weren’t just coming to Picture the Homeless to get an apartment. You were coming to Picture the Homeless to make the city do the right thing and I hear the same sentiment echoed in other interviews of long-time leaders of Picture the Homeless. And, you know, when I think about your other political activism in your life—because you are a politically active person, from back to your teenage years. You described a lot of that in your first interview. I want to kind of shift a little bit and talk about the Housing Campaign, because you joined Picture the Homeless in 2005, and the Housing Campaign was pretty new. And so, what were your impressions—because you were a seasoned activist in many ways. So, what were your impressions of the Housing Campaign? What were those meetings like?

Dickerson: [00:39:57] I remember the first meeting, it was—it was the Housing and Jobs Platform. And I came in the meeting when they told me, “Well, you can come in.” And I’m like, “Okay, let me see what this is about.” And I sat there, and I was listening to them, and I’m like, “Wow.” You know. And then they started to talk about, “We’ve got all these vacant houses, and we need do something about properties. We’ve got businesses on the bottom and up on the top is abandoned. They got them boarded up, and there’s a lot in East Harlem.” And I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding.” I thought, “That’s a joke. They got to be lying.” You know, I just thought it was—skeptical, I was a little skeptical.

Dickerson: [00:40:52] So, I came out of the meeting one day, and I walked around to 116th, off of Lexington, and I started walking by—and I started… I was just canvasing the neighborhood. And I’m saying, “Oh my God. Look at all these places.” So, we had another meeting, and I came back. And they was sitting and talking, and they were talking about, “We got to make a plan.” And I got up—I just couldn’t sit there any longer. And I said, “Well, I’m new, and I don’t know how to do this. But I thought you was lying, you know, because people say stuff.” And you know, I said, “But, you really are… “ And I told them how many buildings I counted—the blocks where I walked—and I said I was really shocked. I said, “What can we do?” I said, “Is there any way that we can do something about this?”

Dickerson: [00:42:06] And as you said, my younger days, I remember on my block police were acting crazy, giving people tickets. I said, “No, you’re not going to do that.” And I told my block, “We got to do something about this. Y’all owners, but the next time they have a ticket on my mama’s car, I’m going to go off.” I said, “Because I’m going to find out the policeman.” And I said, “And I’m going to get some petitions and we’re going to… ” And they said, “Yes, that sounds good, that sounds good!” We can’t let them come in here and let them take over like that. They got to respect us. So, I said, “We’re going to go in there to this meeting, and we’re going to do something about it.”

Dickerson: [00:42:46] So, I—you know, the same kind of idea. And they looked at me, you know, and they said, “Wow, that sounds good!” And I had some buildings that they didn’t have. So, we sat down, and we did planning, and then finally Roosevelt did some… You know, he was a housing organizer—and he did some research, and he did something from Boston, [Massachusetts]. And I’m like, “Wow.” And I was like, “Oh man, this sounds good!” We had another meeting, and we started mapping out, talking. We had—Leroy [Parker] was there. He’s one of the old timers. Leroy, Marco [Brumfield]—which is one of the board member’s daughter—she was talking.

Dickerson: [00:43:39] And we just started talking, and then we had started writing out where these places were. How are we going to do this? And then from there, we started to do some planning, and we said, “Well, we need to talk—” I said, “We don’t just want to talk. We need to talk to the city about this.” They said, “Yes, that’s right!” I said, “No, we got to talk to them… ” So, we started talking about it.

Dickerson: [00:44:08] Next thing you know, we had a meeting, and we collected our information, we got a plan, and next thing we went out and we started counting Manhattan! And counting Manhattan was really one experience that I had, and we did it with the—as I said, he’s the Comptroller now—Scott Stringer—and from there, we got our information, and he was with us. I mean, it was—sometimes with politicians, depending on who they are… Sometimes you got to be a little careful with them, because the political arena is not what it used to be, and a whole lot has changed.

Dickerson: [00:44:58] So, I—we did what we had to do, and from there we talked about doing legislation. Then we did another count, and we proved the city to be wrong. It was not—but I said when I spoke to City Council was that “It was not… We didn’t have a lot of people, but we had allies.” And we had enough information that we could talk to the elected officials. I had one meeting with one of the elected officials, the Honorable Bill Perkins. And, my other friend, comrade, Rob Robinson, we went in to talk to him about our idea. We had a pamphlet, you know, we had it written out, it was nice. Oh, the man, he looked at the paper, he says, “Oh, this looks very good! Oh, this is done so professional!” And we gave it to him, we came in, we presented it to him. I didn’t—at that time, I didn’t know about Community Land Trusts, and Rob was talking—I let him talk, because I was learning, and I was in organizing training.

Dickerson: [00:46:21] And, we did that, and he just looked at me [laughs]—he looked at us, but—and afterwards, he couldn’t say anything because we had all our I’s and T’s dotted. And from there, I have been able to talk to other politicians with no problems, and we’d gotten into—with the housing—we had, that was our Housing Not Warehousing, was one bill that we had got. And we had other bills that have come into play. We have also been active with rights—with Right to Counsel. We have been collaborating with that, and that’s also with housing.

Dickerson: [00:47:15] I am also now with the Anti-Eviction—that’s part of housing. Oh, it’s been like a seed planting growing up, and the tree gets—gets some roots, and now I’m branching out. So, you know, I’m able to… Because I’m very compassionate about housing, it’s been very, very important. Not only that, I’m also on the People—with the Coalition—New York City Coalition of Continuum Care, I’m with People with Lived Experience, which used to be the consumers, and on the steering committee. So, I sit in places where I can talk about housing. And with our housing—with our housing campaign, we’re able to put our people—or our people get involved—in housing issues and we speak about these housing issues.

Dickerson: [00:48:29] So, I’m comfortable, and I don’t mean to sound cocky or, you know… I’m really confident [smiles] because PTH [Picture the Homeless] has given me the chutzpah— [laughs]

Lewis: The chutzpah.

Dickerson: [00:48:47]—to really talk about housing! And it’s important that we get involved, because they count us out. They count us—when they count us out with the decision making, with their policies. When they start their stupid rezoning, they don’t call us in there! So, we want to be in there when they’re making these decisions. We want to see what you are doing in the community, and how this is going to affect the community.

Dickerson: [00:49:25] So, I enjoy—I don’t enjoy—I love my housing campaign. [Smiles] You know, because… You know, I said at one rally, “Those houses are vacant.” And I went in to something—a part of the Bible—the Valley of the Dry Bones. You need life in a building. And in that—in those—I look at those vacant buildings and properties as the Valley of Dry Bones, because everything needs to have life and life brings growth. Life brings abundance. Life brings people together, brings families together, it brings businesses together, it brings culture together.

Dickerson: [00:50:29] So, homeless people, they had a life before they was homeless. So, just give them a chance! They want to be vibrant in the community, rather than to be turned away, or packing up or having to carry all your valuables on you, from one place to the other. It is a hardship to be carrying all you possess in bags.

Lewis: [00:51:04] I remember one time—because when folks are in shelter, the city will pay for their storage. But often they don’t pay, [laughter] and that’s happened to you one time. So, you didn’t have all your belongings in bags. You thought they were safe in the storage. Do you mind sharing that story, so people really can get a real picture?

Dickerson: [00:51:32] Well, you know, you only got a locker, and you can’t put—you can’t put everything that you own. I have had documents, family pictures, you know… And I didn’t know at that time that… I was on public assistance. I didn’t know at that time that public assistance would pay for your storage. And I’ve heard of situations where some people, they… HRA [Human Resources Administration] didn’t pay—didn’t pay for their storage. And I learned later on that you’re entitled to that if you are homeless and you’re on Human Resources budget, they’re supposed to pay.

Dickerson: [00:52:29] I have lost lots of stuff. I used to collect coins—you know, coins and I had a couple of two-dollar bills, which is, you know, a  collectors—and I lost them. So, I mean, people—I’ve lost stuff, you know—lost plenty of things. I had three storage units, I lost everything, you know.

Dickerson: [00:53:00] And you know, you go in and you tell… Sometimes if you go in and you’re on public assistance, you say, “Well, I have storage.” If the case manager says—if you tell them that you have that, they’re supposed to put you on there, pay for that. And sometimes… You know I, by then, I didn’t know public assistance would pay for my storage.

Dickerson: [00:53:27] So I lost everything. I lost everything. My diploma, certificates… Certificates—I had about three or four certificates I lost. And those things you can’t get back, you know? And people have lost a lot of stuff. They lost—one lady had—she had her children’s things in there. She lost all that—clothing, you know, a lot… But if the case manager—the case managers, if you go in there, and you tell them—well… And they don’t even tell you whether not, “Do you need storage.” Do you understand?

Dickerson: [00:54:14] So, I mean… We’ve gotten a little better, but it’s still—still it is trying when you have to depend on a system to put your stuff in—for them to pay for you—or they say they can’t pay for it, or they forgot—they forgot to pay it. And then, you say—well, you go back to them and say, “I would like for you to pay this, because you know I have storage.” “Well, I’m sorry, that’s not in it.” But it is. It is in their budget! And so, people lose all their stuff.

Dickerson: [00:54:54] You know, you don’t want to be walking around carrying everything with you, because you can’t. You got a locker, and you can’t put everything there. You can’t put everything in there. You can’t put it in a locker because then they’ll be talking about, “Oh, well, this is a violation.” Or they’ll write you up. Who wants to have notes on their… They give you this little cot and a locker? Who wants to be having that on you? And especially if you’re working. I was working, and they’re putting stuff on your locker. Get out of here.

Lewis: [00:55:30] I remember—back to your house party—your housewarming party—and you had just gotten your apartment, and you were—you know, saying that you didn’t have a lot. But when I got there, it felt like a home, because you had this beautiful small pieces of African cloth that you had hung over the windows, and over the doorway—not covering the window, but like at the top, like a valance—and over one of your doorways. And just those touches, it looked like you, it looked like a home. And so, I appreciate you talking about the importance of home, and what it’s like to not have a home.

Lewis: [00:56:20] And when you’re talking about the housing campaign and the vacant property count, and that you worked on that for so many years, and you’re still working on that—what do you think was—what do you think was Picture the Homeless’ main—or a large—one of the main impacts that the Picture the Homeless Housing Campaign had on the New York City Housing Movement? If you could sum that up? And you don’t have to do it quickly, because you’re in a lot of different spaces around housing.

Dickerson: Yeah.

Lewis: If we hadn’t done that work… What difference did it make?

Dickerson: [00:57:06] Wow… I think, for that time, for me… You know, I had been in and out of housing—in and out of shelter… You know, it’s like I thought I would be able to make enough money to sustain myself. But it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t so. And I had to come back and—one time, when I first came in and I remember I was just getting involved with housing and I’m saying, “You know what?”—I learned my mother was being diagnosed with Alzheimer’s—my dad—he was my step-father, but he was my dad… I said, “They getting older,” and I was like, “I don’t want them to be down there by themselves.” Or, you know, “I want to have a place for them.” I said, “That’s important.”

Dickerson: [00:58:15] And… I think I was making—I was doing home attending, and I said to myself, “I want to be able to help my family.” And you know, I had two brothers, and one brother died. My baby brother’s dead, so I was like, “You know what? If I could get one of those vacant buildings, or property—” I had in my mind that—we was talking about that and we sat there and we’d talk about how we could rebuild the city, how we could contribute to the city. And I said, “I know my mother, she’d like a garden. That would be happy, Mommy’d like that. Dad… ” And I said, “I probably could get some people while I’m doing something, you know, they’d be able to watch them.” I thought about that. It was one of my dreams, one of my goals, and I thought about that. And when I looked at all the properties and stuff, like… It did not—it did not come to the way I wanted it to.

Dickerson: [00:59:40] But the idea of taking—not taking from the city, but to build the city, that is so important. And not only that, it would be cost effective. You get a group of people—we have—he was our organizer there, his name is Father Frank Morales, and he talked about—because he did the squatting, and where he’s living at now, they own that building, you know? And I thought about—Frank told us what we could do, and I said, “Yeah!” I was willing—me and another young lady—we were willing to go in there. And I said, “Get up! There’s enough homeless people in here that have skills.” Even if we didn’t have skills, we could go somewhere and learn how to do this and we could build up a community, you know? If they got those shanty places over in Africa, and India, and some of the other places—they even got a place in D.C., and I think in Detroit… When we went to Detroit they had a place down there, and people was living… And I’m saying, “If they can do it, I can do it.” I was determined to do that. I was determined to do that because it made a difference.

Dickerson: [01:01:07] You know, I say this… I think it’s President Kennedy—I might not be saying it word for word, “Ask not what you can do for your country, but what you can do for… “ You know. And it’s important… We’re not the problem, we’re the solution! And that’s the way I look at it. If you give those that are affected—the unprivileged—opportunity—not… You know, they have a statement— “Not give, show them how to build, and the importance of building.”

Dickerson: [01:01:54] Because you have younger people coming behind. What our society—America doesn’t understand—you have a system of young people that are aging out of foster care. We don’t talk about that. So, where do they have to go? They go into the shelter system. So, when I talk about the shelter system, it has its good… It has its purpose. But all the money—all of the money that is spent… I ain’t knocking them, but what can you do better for that money to be spent a better way? So, New York being number two as far as homeless is concerned… I didn’t know that. My eyes was opened. I’m like, “Wow, you’ve got to be kidding.”

Dickerson: [01:03:11] And I’m sixty-six. You know, I’m not ashamed. I’m sixty-six! I am disabled, and I’m a senior. Where do your seniors go to live? Where do people that make less than eleven thousand? Where do the working poor go? Because, I was in the shelter, and I was definitely part of the working poor—and on the union. Where do your immigrants go? Because you’ve got to think about them. Where do single parents go? You build luxury homes—they messing up NYCHA—going and coming. What’s left for us, as the people? “We the people, for the people.” Not the Bump, because they’re talking about making money!

Dickerson: [01:04:22] So… I can’t stop… I pray that PTH continues to go on. Because there is a message. We can’t stop. We may have to regroup for now, but telling this oral history is because—it starts from the root and goes up. And when it goes up to the root, you get the trunk. The trunk builds up a strong part that—it doesn’t go to the left or go to the—but it moves, it don’t bend. Then it branches out. So, I have other things that I have branched out, and I’m telling, “Listen, I’m part of this. Yes, you have your tenant association.” But I also say to the tenant’s association, “You can be liable to be homeless, too, if that landlord does something, okay.” So, we got to watch on every area in regards to housing. And I also say that because we have to come together, because if they come after me, they’ll come after you. And that’s—that’s the real ball game of it.

Dickerson: [01:05:56] There’s such a racial disparity, and a disparity between the rich and the poor… Who runs the country? So, we got—you know, they say with Lotto, “You got to be in it to win it.” We can’t stop fighting! This movement must go on. We must stand up for those that are impoverished, that are mentally ill, that are frail, that—for the younger people, and for our children. What do we pass on? We must pass something on. Who holds that baton?

Lewis: [01:06:57] You know, when you say, “We must keep on fighting.” I’m reflecting back on the fighting that we have done, just with the housing campaign. And so, for folks to really understand what you mean by, “Keep on fighting,” what were some of the things that the housing campaign did—besides the property count—what are some of the other things that were done, to put pressure on the city? Or educate the public about the problem?

Dickerson: [01:07:33] Well, one—we talked about… I remember testifying with the ninety days with the Commissioner Banks, and talking about making changes, and really talking about the plight of homelessness, and agencies that had all these violations—housing violations. I’ll say the building department found them with violations. That’s something that needs to be cleared.

Dickerson: [01:08:16] The other thing, we had something called Gaining Ground. Gaining Ground was talking about… We had got together and talked to some of the… The city had started taking some of our rent subsidy buildings and having them as a shelter. We didn’t need you to do that! We need you to keep that there, so instead of having that as a shelter, they need to have that rent subsidy. So, he was—some of the clients that was in there, that wanted to stay in there—they fixed it up—they wanted to turn those apartments back to rent subsidy.

Dickerson: [01:09:12] The other thing, the other thing was community land trusts. We have been talking about it—we’ve done surveys, especially in El Barrio—East Harlem… There’s a lot of vacant buildings and being able to get those buildings—it is definitely one way to keep secure rent, where there’s the preservation of keeping low rents. And that’s what a community land trust is, keeping low rents for that particular community. And it’s important, especially for those that are low-income—and homeless people—that you have apartments that’s for low rent.

Dickerson: [01:10:06] The other thing that we have been involved with—we kind of collaborated with is Right to Counsel, which is important, because when you go into housing court, they do not—they did not—people did not have lawyers. The landlords had lawyers, but the tenants didn’t have any lawyers. So, it’s important with that. There’s something that we’re talking now—is warehousing. You know, that’s important, because some landlords are keeping—they’re really keeping their lands vacant, so that they can—when the city—whatever decides, or however the government decides… When it comes up to market rate, here comes the greedy, boogey boogey… It’s like Trick or Treat, “I’m coming in here and I’m going to snatch this up.” The other thing is, Anti-Eviction. You have to have laws with not evicting people out of their apartments!

Dickerson: [01:11:21] We also have been involved with… We’ve also been involved with the rezoning. Just with rezoning—the rezoning has also put people into places where they can no longer—if they rezone that area… One particular was—we protested against it, and it’s going to be a fight. I think it was East New York, East New York in particular, and I think in Harlem—East Harlem—where they changed the laws around, and now they can put anything in those areas. East New York was particular because of air rights, and that’s something else that people don’t talk about—is air rights. People don’t know about the air rights. The air rights—certain places if they have air rights, they can only build a certain height—now, they sell off their air rights, so now they build up. That’s why you got these skyscrapers, luxury buildings, going up.

Dickerson: [01:12:31] So, I mean, the work continues to be messaging, you know, messaging. And it’s important that we stay in this housing fight, because it’s… I don’t want it to go back to the old nineteenth—early nineteenth century—only the rich people here, and the poor was out on the outskirts. I don’t want to see that, you know? Let’s not repeat history. And I think that it’s important that for those of us that are involved in housing, that we look at those things. We have people from that we have united and gone and got involved with all over the country, because it’s important.

Dickerson: [01:13:24] We elected them in there. They think homeless people can’t vote! Voting’s important. You mess up, we vote your behind out, and then you got to go! So, that’s important and just stay in their face. Stay there and say, “Do the right thing.” Because you got more homeless children in schools now. Not only schools, you got them in colleges! So, housing is a human right.

Lewis: [01:14:00] You know, when you say that we have to stay in the face of elected officials, [smiles] I remember a sleepout [laughter] that… You participated in many, but one in particular I got a picture in my mind of you sleeping on the sidewalk with a bunch of Picture the Homeless leaders and allies in front of Eric Dilan’s office. And Eric Dilan was the chair of the Housing and Buildings Committee of the New York City Council, and Christine Quinn was the speaker, and Bloomberg was the mayor. And in order for a bill to pass, it had to be calendared, and have hearings. And so, we were learning all of this, together. And Eric Dilan was the chair, and the chair had to calendar the bill, and it was Intro 48. I remember a picture in my mind of you with a glove on your hand, that says, “Intro 48” and you sleeping on the sidewalk getting in their face. What was that like for you as somebody who was homeless, actually sleeping on the street intentionally to put pressure and get in their face? What was that like?

Dickerson: [01:15:38] [Sighs] Well, I think about some other [laughs]—some other stuff we did. We also slept out in Christine Quinn’s area. She was not too happy. [Smiles] We was out there in the Chelsea area, and she got very upset. Ha! So, what. Oh, you got to let them know, we’re not going to sit there and take it, you know. We’re going to be sitting out here and I’m like—I guess I’m one of those real militant type of people. “Let’s sit out here, and when you come by, you got to walk over top of us.” Or whatever, you know, because then when you start trying to embarrass them, they have to look at that and I know he was very angry. He was very upset when we were there.

Dickerson: [01:16:38] It was raining [laughs]—it was raining—see, we got us some hardcore—you know, when we do something, rain, shine, snow, sleet, we’re going to be out there. And I remember sleeping out there and we had… You know, we was singing and laughing and playing games with our umbrellas, and we went and got food. We would sit—we had one group would watch us so we would stay safe—somebody would take turns in watching us.

Dickerson: [01:17:13] But when he… When he came to his office, we were outside, and he was really ticked off. I mean, we were very—the thing about it that when we get ready to do something, we make sure that we cover all the areas we have. I have been the legal advisor; I have been security… You know, I have went and carried—if we had a letter of some sort we had to take, I’ve done that, and also organizing. So, it’s important that when you do do that, it’s been an education to be able to sit there.

Dickerson: [01:17:59] I think you physically have to be in someone’s face so that they can recognize. “You don’t want to talk to us, we’re going to be here. Eventually you’re going to have to say something to us. You’re going to have to have a conversation with us, because we’re not going away.” And I think that was very important.

Dickerson: [01:18:19] My hat goes off to, I think, Kendall—Kendall and Arvernetta, they walked around. We went to that—it was… We went and did like a tour, and that place, to this day is on Atlantic Avenue. I think it’s in Cyprus Hills? It’s in Cyprus Hills, and they had a family that owned this—this area—it’s a housing area, but it’s owned by a family and half of the people had moved out. It’s still sitting there. That was part of Eric Dilan, and we wanted to really, in once sense embarrass… We wanted to say, “Listen, you got to be held accountable.” That’s why when we go do the protests, it’s about talking about, “You are held accountable. You are a public official; you’re supposed to know. Why aren’t you doing something? Did you know this was happening? Well, maybe we could come and do something together and see how—see, if we have a plan.” So, yeah! You got to be up in their face, because they got to be held accountable.

Dickerson: [01:19:37] If you’re in the area you’re elected of… You’re an elected official, then you need to know what’s going on in your area and if you don’t, you know, it’s not “I got a nice cushy job, I don’t look outside, I don’t see nothing.” No, that’s why you’re there. You are a public official of the people, and you’re supposed to know. That’s your job. If you didn’t want the job, then don’t be there! Don’t be a public official because you’re supposed to know! If you don’t, then I suggest you get Snoop Dogg and the FBI to help you out!

Lewis: [01:20:13] You went through the Picture the Homeless organizer trainee program. And the program was really designed to support leaders to be able to be organizers. And so, to pull off a sleepout like that, as you mentioned, there’s several different roles, there’s security, we got to get food, we  got to get the cardboard, and the blankets, and the plastic—because it always rains… Do the initial contact with the elected official, do follow-up, make the whole plan. So, the campaign makes the whole plan, but then we have all these press spokespeople, police negotiator, all of that. In the organizer trainee program, you were in one of the first groups. I think that you were in the second group with some other women who were leaders, who wanted to actually hold down organizer roles. What was it like for you being in that organizer trainee program?

Dickerson: [01:21:30] Well… It was tough. I won’t say it was tough, it was challenging. I’ve been in training programs—I’ve been in trainings… That was out of my comfort zone. I didn’t know—there was so many things that I did not know. Doing outreach, I didn’t know anything about outreach. Learning how to speak to public officials, learning how to speak to the press, writing out blogs… What negotiation was about—how to negotiate… Getting members to be involved… Because you can do things, but if you don’t get people involved, you’re not doing anything. You have to know how to get involved, and you have to listen to what people are saying. And homeless people go through a whole lot of stuff. So, how do you get involved?

Dickerson: [01:23:03] I remember one-time Sam—he took me out… We went out and we went to the post office. And where I was—one place where I was at—the shelter I was at… I didn’t know they had a postal office for homeless people—back then. And I’m like, “You’ve got to be kidding.” And he said, “We got to go there, it’s the first of the month and we’re going to go on the other side, and this is where—and we’re going to pass out—we’re going to pass out flyers.” And he told us, “Give us ten questions and we have to do it in sixty seconds.” I said, “This man must be crazy.” I said, “Sixty seconds? Is he for real? For real?” [Smiles] And I watched him, and I’m like, “Wow.” And he did it again, and I’m like, “Wow!” And I said, “I need more time.” He did it again.

Dickerson: [01:24:07] He said, “Now, I’m not doing it no more, you got to do it.” So, I said, “Oh wow.” My stomach’s said pssssshhhh—it was flooded. Afterwards, it just came as—it just came a breeze. And we was passing out—passing out our information, taking down people’s names, you know? And it just became a lot of fun. You know, it was a lot of fun. And afterwards, we began to learn about… That day we went to Holy Apostles, we went out there, then we went to POTS, we did some outreach. I love the outreach, you know. And we also had—we also learned—we had like a chart of places where we were going to go and do our outreach, so that was important.

Dickerson: [01:24:56] Also, knowing how to present yourself on the radio, or on TV. I didn’t do  too much TV, but we had—we did radio spots. And at that particular time, we used to do MNN—Manhattan [Neighborhood] Network—so, you know, just getting to know some of your resources. Now, Picture the Homeless has become—has gotten—we used to be on the left wing of the news media, [laughs] now we’re on the right wing and having interviews and having… You know, like they get, “Well, I want to know what you have to think. Give me a short phrase of some sort, we want to get this out.”

Dickerson: [01:25:47] And also, we used to enter our stuff after we come in from doing the outreach, then we would put it on the database... Setting up meetings, learning how to facilitate… Learning how to facilitate, we did a retreat at one time, and we did the retreat, getting all the information, what we needed to do, what people wanted, giving out roles, knowing the different types of roles, make sure that you—everybody is accounted for.

Dickerson: [01:26:26] While we were there… While I was there doing the organizing training, we also had, I think—did we do that? No. I was thinking about when we went to… We went to the Left Forum… And speaking on panels. Something I really loved, we had… I loved going to the colleges. We went to colleges, we used to have like a little steady gig, we would go to Hunter College, talking to the students, which was really wonderful. [Smiles] Dr. [Lynn] Roberts, she was really great. We would always go in as a team. I had somebody else to go with me. So, that was important, going and speaking to colleges. We also went—I also went one time, we was at—spoke at Barnard College, Columbia, and Hunter—and Hunter. We just really had a wonderful time going to the colleges and stuff like that, so...

Dickerson: [01:27:33] When we would have town hall meetings—planning for town hall meetings, what to say, who we were going to invite, we knew also what our target was—who were the targets, what our allies and what we could gain, you know? What we’re going to lose and what we could gain.

Dickerson: [01:27:51] And we planned different actions, different types of actions. Different types of things—we did a rally one time, which was really nice. We had a band there. It was really wonderful. [Smiles] So, those were really great, really great.

Lewis: [01:28:08] And so, you were an organizer working within the group

Dickerson: Yes

Lewis: to make a lot of that stuff happen. What would you say to someone else who was a member of Picture the Homeless, or a homeless person somewhere else in the country that is part of a group, or thinking about joining a group… And they’re not stepping outside of their comfort zone, yet? What would you say to that person to support them to step outside their comfort zone like you stepped outside of yours?

Dickerson: [01:28:51] [Laughs] Well, you pushed me. [Laughs] But, you know… How do I say? When you have people that can see your gifts, your potential… Sometimes in life you have to take a chance. Life is not always comfort. Sometimes you don’t grow if you don’t step or move away. It’s important sometime to know those things that you can really make an impact. I did not have any kind of idea that I would be doing this. Growing up, I was very quiet. I was very shy. I didn’t really say anything. I kept to myself.

Dickerson: [01:30:01] And there’s times that, you know, stepping out of that comfort zone you learn to build, you learn confidence, you know what pressure’s all about. But there’s good pressure and there’s bad pressure. And sometimes, when you… You have people there—genuine people there that say, “Hey, go ahead, you can do this.” That’s important that you have that. And it’s having that support, you know, really having that support. And sometimes you never know until you really try, until you really try and just having that support, just knowing that you’re able to do that, you know.

Lewis: [01:31:00] Well, I think of you—and reflecting on the all the groups that you mentioned earlier: The Right to Counsel, NYCCLI—the New York City Community Land Initiative—the Community Land Trust, the Anti-Eviction… You know, you are involved in a whole bunch of different… Kind of branches—to use the tree analogy—in the housing movement. Sometimes, you are the only person there who at least publicly says that you’ve been homeless. You’re representing Picture the Homeless, but you’re also known as DeBoRah, now. A lot of folks know you. Why is it important that in the housing movement, in all these different spaces, somebody is there, who’s been homeless?

Dickerson: [01:32:02] The reason why… My mind goes back to Atlanta… Atlanta and being in Germany. Some groups you see… They just talk about one particular thing… And I go to Germany, because when I was there in Germany, they had a group from Colorado, and they were talking about mobile homes. And I got up, to stand up to say—to make a comment—and I said, “You know, I hear about the mobile homes being pushed off.” I said, “It’s the same, but the other situation is that your people could still be homeless.” Nobody talked about that. You know, you may own the land, or the house, or the building… But we don’t talk about “You could be homeless.” We don’t talk about… And I’ve said this at—I spoke at one presentation, at a college—at Hunter College—and I said, “If your name is not on the lease, you’re considered homeless.” Once I say that, people are like, “Oh. Wow.” Because they don’t look at it— “Well, I’m living in a house.” You may live in a house with your family, or whatever, but if your name ain’t on the lease—or that manager, whoever, they decide, “Well, you got this person—I seen this person coming in and out… We’re going to raise your rent, or you got to move. That’s violating your lease.” Or whatever. So, I mean, I think it's important because don’t look at stuff… We don’t look at you couch sitting as being homeless. And if your name is not on the lease, you’re homeless. You know, you may live with a friend, or a cousin, or whatever it is. But you’re still homeless! And I think that’s important because—what is homeless? [Laughs] Who is homeless? And our society don’t say, “If your name is not on the lease, you are homeless.”

Dickerson: [01:34:54] That’s why people got leases because they’re not considered homeless! [Laughs] It sounds funny, but you know… When I said it, it’s like—[gasps]—and I remember a young lady—I was talking—I was at Hunter College, and at the end, and I was talking, and she came over to me and she said… She was in a master’s class, she said, “Oh my God.” And she started to cry. I held her in my arms, and said, “What’s the matter?” She said, [imitates voice] “When you said if your name is not on the lease, and you know what it means to be homeless. I had friends! And they wanted me to give up my job. And they told me, ‘You got to give up your job if you want to stay here.’” And I’m like, “Whoa!” I’m like, “Wow.” She said, “But I was staying there, and they told me if I didn’t give up my job, I had to go.” And I’m like, “Wow!” You know, and I just held her. I just held her. I could feel the pain that she felt.

Dickerson: [01:36:09] you know, it’s okay, I come in, I crash, or whatever—camp out. But when I get… You know, some people may say, “It’s all right for you to come and stay.” But when they see the reality of you being there, and stuff starts to happen, might have some clashes or some… “Well, you’re in the bathroom, I want to use the bathroom.” It just changes your whole mode, you know? That’s something to think about. And I’m like, you have to look at—we don’t look at that. So, that’s my message.

Dickerson: [01:36:52] Even if you’re a tenant, when that landlord, or manager decides to come and put a thing under your—under your door, “You got to go,” For me… Even for me as being an activist and advocating, just because I believe in what I do—and I have been doing—I have gone through eviction. I was doing… I did everything right, but I got an eviction notice! You think that feels good? No, it doesn’t. But let me tell you something, you can bet your booties I fought back! I wasn’t taking it! That’s why I get involved. And I had somebody to call them because they were wrong.

Dickerson: [01:37:48] There’s a right way to be evicted. There’s a process. So, we need to teach people about the process, even for evictions! People to need to know they just can’t come boogity-boogity… There’s illegal evictions, and there’s legal dwellings—all of that comes under housing.

Lewis: [01:38:12] So, in your vision, housing is very broad—and homelessness is a piece of it?

Dickerson: [Sighs] It is. It is. Yes, it is.

Dickerson: [01:38:35] [Long pause] Yes… I think about going into the South and into some other places where people had to leave their homes, because the place was not in a sanitary condition. They was dumping raw sewage and people didn’t know about that. I was thinking about maybe—people sharecroppers… We went to Baltimore, we had some members, because… They had the place they provided them for housing, but if they wanted to take that place to build, to increase their property, they had to leave.

Dickerson: [01:39:45] So, I mean, there are conditions in which people become homeless, and that’s something that I would say they go hand-in-hand. What are the conditions for being homeless? What happens when your rent goes up so high, you can’t pay that rent? Where are you going to go? Can you negotiate? Can you talk about it? Will they… Can you pay half of the rent? And you don’t want the Marshalls coming in, putting you out, putting all your things outside. It can be very… A very inhumane and very humiliating situation, when you lose your home. What about the people that their homes go in foreclosure?  I learnt that my mom’s house went into foreclosure. I’m like, “Wow. Okay.” What happens when the seniors’ houses go into foreclosures? What happens? You know, so, I mean… When you can’t pay to keep a roof over your head… You know, people living in their cars, and there’ve been situations where people live in their cars and then, you know, they may go somewhere, have their car parked and they have tickets on it—and they didn’t pay the tickets or whatever… And their car is—that car becomes their home. And the car—what happens? So, there’s some really catchy situations.

Dickerson: [01:41:45] I think about Germany, when they talk about mobile homes—I don’t even look at—upstate New York has mobile homes; we didn’t talk about that. The people never own the land! And that’s what about… You know, I went to, I think it was a conference last year, it was in a community garden, and they were talking about land use. How do you use the land? What do you use that land for? What happens when you don’t own the land? And that was a conference that I went to—went to in North Carolina. What happens when you don’t… What happens when you don’t own the land?

Lewis: That was the Black Land and Liberation work?

Dickerson: Black Land Initiative, yes.

Lewis: [01:42:41] And you mentioned racial disparities earlier and I think that’s something that a lot of people don’t think about. Who is homeless? Now, you have a lot of groups—advocacy groups—with the word “homeless” in their name, and they’ll say, “Everyone’s a paycheck away from being homeless.” But that’s not true. There’s a whole a bunch of people that aren’t a paycheck away from being homeless. They’ve got savings, they got people they could borrow money from, they got credit cards. And so, when you look at who is homeless, it’s not everybody becoming homeless. What do you think the root causes are of the racial disparities? What are those racial disparities for folks that don’t really think about it that much?

Dickerson: [01:43:42] Well, I have to look at… I did a presentation at Care for the Homeless, and it also came up with the New York City Coalition for Continuum of Care, and also with the National Alliance for Homelessness. And one thing that they talk about is the racial disparity. Most… Who’s mostly homeless happens to be people of color. People of color are one of those main—one of the main ones that happen to be homeless. And there’s all kinds of statistical information that says that. I can’t exactly give you the percentage—and sometimes I don’t like giving out percentages because we get caught up in the number game, and the number game makes me mad. I’m going to do what I do. I got two eyes, [laughs] and I see.

Dickerson: [01:45:10] So, when you go into the shelter system, you see mostly Blacks. The next race you will see will be Spanish. You may see some Asians—some Asian people in there, and then you may see some whites. The reality, who goes out the door faster will be whites. Blacks, it takes a longer time… Why, I don’t know. I do know—we know the race game, okay? Let’s keep it real. There is a racial disparity. Who are homeless with the youth, happen to be Black youths—Hispanic, then your Asians, then comes your whites. So, you got, you know, those groups come into play, but mostly people of color.

Dickerson: [01:46:19] When you have foreclosures, mostly people of color. When we went to Barnard College, they talked about the banks that was doing foreclosures. There are different organizations that talk about the foreclosures. We know the banks that were giving these foreclosures, and they have been notorious for that. That is a racial disparity. If you got foreclosures, they’d been living—it’s mostly Black, because eventually they are going to become homeless. So, that is definitely one of the things…

Dickerson: [01:47:06] They—when being in one of the meetings that I went to, they did not want to talk about that, because “Oh, we can’t talk about that.” But race always plays into anything, and we have to be honest about it. Because I am of African American descent, we know that  certain groups are privileged. We got to keep it real. So, am I happy about that? No! Do I feel a little somewhat angry? Yeah! But look who has the social economics, privileges. That’s why Trump was able to get what he had. Let’s keep that real—because he was doing real estate. So, who’s hands—who is he shaking hands with?

Dickerson: [01:48:12] Also it goes the same to say with… Unfortunately, I have to say with our governor, because—let’s keep it real—he has shaken hands with the realtors, because they go and lobby. People don’t realize that they go and lobby. So, who’s going to get—who’s going to benefit more? They are, you know, the ones that are white.

Dickerson: [01:48:43] And people of color, you know… Yes, the socio economics has gone up for a lot of us—for some of us people of color. But has it gone up significantly? No. America has not looked at people of color in that aspect. That’s why when you go back into history, it was important… One thing that was expressed as being in the Black Liberation Initiative was that they were talking about land use, owning your own land. That’s why it was important, even in the South. They… It is important, Southerners—and my family is from the South—owning land was very, very important. So, when you own the land, that’s important. Nobody can be messing over you or doing stuff. You can build whatever you want. I have uncles that own their own land—their own…

Dickerson: [01:49:50] So, when you get… Start coming North, it’s not that situation. Most Northerners happen to be renters. We don’t talk about that. So, we have more renters. So, with renters, there’s a tendency for people of color—and I’m not really—I’m just going off of the top of my head. With renters, they’re going to have all this stuff—other stuff—they’re going to be managed by other people. By people not—not by people of color. So, even in the shelter system, you have more Blacks—in the shelter system and that’s a known fact, you know. That’s a known fact.

Lewis: [01:50:37] Well, one of the things that you mentioned a lot in your first interview—and also just knowing you for fifteen years—you talk about solutions a lot. And to understand a solution, you have to understand a problem. So, one of the things that I think is very powerful about you and other long-time leaders, is this willingness to really think and analyze what are the—what’s behind the problem? You have the problem and then you have what causes the problem—what’s behind the problem.

Lewis: [01:51:15] And you know, the inability or willingness to even talk about racial disparities doesn’t let us get to the root of the problem. It doesn’t get us to look at why there are more Black people in the shelter system and the soup kitchens. Why Black people are living in poverty at higher numbers. If we don’t look at that, we can never figure out what the solution is. So, when you bring up these kinds of issues that make people uncomfortable—and they resist hearing you, or want to shut it down—how do you respond?

Dickerson: [01:52:11] Wow. Sometimes I listen to their reaction… And I say, “Okay. Then you try to tell me something that’s different.” We went to meet [smiles] with HPD. Oh my God, I can’t stand it, you know. They—and I shouldn’t say—I just detest their methodology of how they manage things involving buildings, and their property. And I remember there was—we had our statistical information—another organizer, she was there talking, and me saying, “Well, this is what we have found.” And we gave them the information that we were talking about—and this was one time we were talking about really lobbying for Housing Not Warehousing.

Dickerson: [01:53:38] And I think about when we went for the council to get up to talk about, how they came in with their entourage—they had—oh God, they came out with fifteen people. They had Sanitation [New York City Department of], they had the Fire Department [New York City], they had these people come up. But nobody knew what the next one was doing! Because no one would—no department was talking to the next department and they were city agencies, and I used to work for the city. Y’all don’t communicate? So, I got issues with that. And when they started talking, I’m like, “Okay. Fine.” They’re just like, “Oh, well, this is the program, and this is their clique.” I let them talk, like, “Well, okay, but we’ll be back. You just need to check out your records a little more.”

Dickerson: [01:54:42] Show me something that’s really working, that’s beneficial. If it’s working so well, then why come is this happening?” And there’s sometimes, I stick to my grounds. Sometimes you got to stick to your grounds. You know, so, I listened to them, “Okay, fine, okay.” It bothered me, and then they’re like, “Well, we’re not trying to hear this.” I’m like, “Okay.”

Dickerson: [01:55:14] I had another time that I went—I didn’t know—I didn’t know that I was going to be the representative, because I had not been in the meetings. So, I just went to be supportive, but now I’m the fall guy. I’m like yo… So, I had to… The long run was when they were… And I got up and I did the protest. So, this council person was very angry. Then I learned that she was pregnant. I said, “Y’all should have never did that. Y’all was wrong. You don’t mess with pregnant women.” I don’t care what race; you don’t mess with a pregnant woman. So, I have a humanitarian part in me. I have a part of me that I really care.

Dickerson: [01:56:12] So, [laughs] all I could say was to her, “Well, we Black.” So, she went off. “What do you mean Black?!” [Laughs] And you know, it was interesting. She said—and I understand… Because she was the lead person for that particular time. And I’ve said when you go in to plan certain things, expect—be prepared for opposition. If you’re not prepared for the opposition, don’t come. If you don’t have a strong back, stay out of the game, you know. And they… you know, I… Later on, I know, it is okay. But I mean, there’s some things you’re going to win and some things you’re not. But if you can kind of meet a middle… You know, as being a union rep at one time, you’re going to have to meet a middle ground. There’s going to have to be a middle ground, but don’t mean you have to sell—don’t meant you have to sell out everything. We have to settle; we have to compromise what’s best.

Dickerson: [01:57:25] So, I mean, just like—I’ll take, for instance, when we did Intro 48. Before we got to Intro 48, how many… We had to do a lot. There was a lot—and we still came back to what was the original. People don’t even know that. But we had to do it piece by piece—well, we’ve been saying this all along that—so, you just some things—you just, you play it by ear, you try to be as peaceful as possible, stand your ground, and you just put it in the Good Lord’s hands.

Lewis: Well, I think that’s a perfect note to end the interview on. And thank you DeBoRah for everything you’ve done all these years.

Dickerson: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]