DeBoRah Dickerson (Interview 1)

Lewis: [00:00:01] Okay. So, good afternoon

Dickerson: Good afternoon.

Lewis: Would you tell me your name?

Dickerson: My name is DeBoRah Dickerson.

Lewis: Okay DeBoRah. Today is October 27th, it's Friday afternoon, and we're in East Harlem, and you're a long-time leader of Picture the Homeless—and so, tell me a little bit about yourself and where you're from?

Dickerson: [00:00:34] I was born January the 28th, in Crown Heights. I lived in a private home and Crown Heights was—was and still is, a very multi-cultural place... Where you had people from different parts of the United States, and the country, living there... It's family, you know—neighbors—I grew up with everybody coming over, talking to you…

Dickerson: [00:01:20] And my mother was a Southerner, so was my father. My mother's from North Carolina, and my father is from—he's from Florida and they met in New York City, and… I came out! [Laughs] I had two brothers, we all were born on like, on the 8th. My baby brother was born June 28th and my older brother was born October the 8th and… My baby brother, he's deceased—and I just lost my older brother this year, June 7th. But we were the three musketeers. [Smiles] I am the middle child.

Dickerson: [00:02:09] We grew up in a middle class—a middle-class community, working people, you know—honest, didn't mind working, helping everyone. It was like a big old melting pot, so I really loved that because, like I said, everybody cared for one another you know, and that's the way it was, alright... I lived in three places in Crown Heights and one of the buildings—again, I stated was a private home. I lived in a railroad flat for thirty-three years. So, I knew everybody, you know, and it's just a beautiful place, beautiful place.

Dickerson: [00:02:58] And I also—in that community… What came out of that community, was the Honorable Shirley Chisholm, which was in our political club. So, everybody backed her and we loved her. It was family.

Lewis: Umm. I've heard you tell some Shirley Chisholm stories. Would you like to share one now?

Dickerson: [00:03:22] Oh, [smiles] she… The name of the political club was the United Democratic Club. It was on Kingston Avenue and Union. It's no longer there... And it was like on the corner, and my mother worked for the Board [of Elections] and everybody that worked at the Board was very active in the political arena—preferably, the Democratic. And I would see this woman walk in, so regal, and so… She always had… There were always young folks around her, and one day she got up to talk and I stood up and I listened to her and I'm like, “Oh my God. She's just fabulous!” So, I got the opportunity to meet her, and as soon as I turned eighteen, I wanted to vote.

Dickerson: [00:04:21] And in meeting—going to her to speak to her, I said to her, I said, “Oh Miss Chisholm, you speak so elegant, oh I wish I could speak like you!” I said, “I just—I love your voice.” And she said in her very stylish way, [imitates Shirley Chisholm] she said, “Young lady, you will speak like me.” And she said, “And you will speak better, because you have a beautiful voice too!” And she said, “It's not about how I speak. Whatever is in your heart, you will be able to speak. So,” she says, “speak from your heart.” She said, “For now, you're learning,” she said, “but you will be better than me!” And I always remember that.

Dickerson: [00:05:16] And… I guess [smiles] I speak, people like to hear me, and sometimes I'm amazed. But—I thank God for her—you know, meeting her and I hear my voice now. I'm sixty-three and I hear my voice!

Dickerson: [00:05:38] My mother was an elegant speaker. In the South she won medals for speaking. Even though she was a southerner, she had a Bostonian accent and because we were instrumentally and sang, we were taught to speak well and to be able to pronounce… Also, there was a big emphasis on diction, you know. We didn't say, “De boy went to de store… You knew you had to do dat…" That was a no-no. We could not say that—and that's important. People don't speak well, and that's important.

Lewis: [00:06:26] Your mom made an emphasis on proper diction? Or was it also in the schools? Where were you getting that instruction?

Dickerson: [00:06:36] Well! I come from a family of ministers, teachers and nurses. The teacher part was—we had family members while we were in school, that—they could not let people know that they were related to us, especially my mother… And my mother said when they would get… They lived on a farm, and she used to pray that it would rain, so she could go to school and when… They would always keep their homework, and they was always up to date.

Dickerson: [00:07:16] And they emphasized speaking well. Even though they may have had an accent, and I guess the ones that were ministers, it was very, very important to be able to speak well so that people did not make fun of you because you know being Southerners they always thought that people of color didn't know how to speak. So that was very, very important.

Dickerson: [07:48] Up until my mother had—my mother's has Alzheimer's, and she's at the last stages, but my mother could recite the Gettysburg address—word for word verbatim, so could her other sisters. I can't do that. We didn't learn that! And, I mean, she would come out with four scores, I would come out with four scores and my mother would complete it. And that was—I was like wow!

Lewis: [00:08:22] Who was the biggest influence on you growing up?

Dickerson: Wow, who, wow! We, on my mother's side, it's into the fifth generation. I was—had the opportunity to see five of my great aunts and two of my uncles. My great aunt, my mother's oldest sister—oldest sisters, and my uncle and my moms and my grandmother! They were very, very influential. They… I call my mother "My". "My" would have these little tidbits, [smiles] you know—they... When I graduated from junior high school, my mother used to say, "Before a task is ever done, do it well or not at all. Be thy labor great or strong, never finish until it's done." [Smiles]

Lewis: [Laughing] I love that.

Dickerson: [00:09:40] So, those were the things that they used to say, and my grandmother, and I would see—hear my other Aunt, she said, "Use your head for more than a hat." You know, I was like, “How'd you use that grandma?” She said, “God gave you brains. Don't just put a hat on and don't have anything in there.” I said, but Grandma [laughing], Grandma—why? You know, we have something in there, we got our brains in it!” She said, “Now, I love you D…” She said, “But, God gave you brains—that that means you got to think! You got to think about things before, you just dress it up.” So that was important to me.

Lewis: Did they all live nearby you?

Dickerson: [00:10:32] Well, when growing up before my moms—my mother and my father separated, we didn't have really a lot of people. But my mother went—we were in Connecticut and my mother went to North Carolina. Oh, we had so much family, [smiles] it was beautiful! My… One of my aunts lived across the street, a cousin lived next door to me, and we had a place called Rabbit town, and this is in Statesville, North Carolina and we would go see my Aunt Lottie. My Aunt Lottie would come, and she would get us, when we come out of school. So, everybody kind of lived-in close proximity. That was very, very important, you know...

Dickerson: [00:11:24] And—when we had to come back to… We moved from the country, and when we had to come back into the City, I hated the City, because when we were in Cleveland, we could—I could go feed the hogs, and the pigs and pick berries and string beans and all that and tend to the mules that we had. And when we left, I couldn't do that no more.

Dickerson: [00:11:53] But, you know—just being there I had family that was so close, you know—and everybody lived next… And they still do, you know—they still do. My uncle, my mother's only brother living now—everybody lived close near each other, and it was just... To me, you know—as a child just growing up, that was important having that family around, very important.

Lewis: Yeah, that all sounds beautiful. So [pause] you came of age into adulthood in New York City, or were you still down in North Carolina?

Dickerson: [00:12:34] Well, I started… Wow! I started school in… We went to Anthony, Florida and there we had a two-room school with desks where they had the ink wells. Where you had one row was the first grade, another row was the second grade, and my brothers… My baby brother and I were in one room, and my older brother was in another room, and they had a pot belly stove, you know—and we had to walk like five miles to get to school.

Dickerson: [00:13:15] So, we would walk and, this… My father's mother, she would make [laughs], she would make potato pancakes. I was so bad, Grandma would make those, Aunt Fanny—Grandma Fanny, would make these potato pancakes and I loved them! You know, when I got down there all they ate was rice and I didn't like rice because we just didn't grow up on rice, you know. So, from my mother's side—they were called “tar heels”, so, we ate potato everything and I loved them potato pancakes and I would sneak into the lunch room and eat my potato pancakes [laughs] before lunchtime!

Dickerson: [00:14:04] So, I started the first grade and a little of the second grade and then my mother came and got us because my father's sister said that she wasn't—we weren’t going to get back—she wasn’t going to bring us back there. My mother said, “I'm coming to get my children!” [Laughter]

Dickerson: [00:14:29] Florida was kind of tough, you know. I didn't really know my father's people. The difficult thing was that they—they drank and my uncle, when he—this was father's oldest brother, he was very abusive, you know. He would get drunk and want to beat everybody else. He didn't care whether we was… My Aunt Minnie had—I think, Fanny was, she was little, like maybe one or two years old, and he would just beat everybody, so...

Dickerson: [00:15:15] It was a blessing to come back to North Carolina. And then I went to school. I went to school in—elementary school, in North Carolina, the third and the fourth grade. The school system there was very different. I remember that they had a lunch program and people [laughs] funny, nobody—sometimes people in the south, if they don't know you they don't eat your food. So they said, “They're not fixing that food, because we don't know them, and they might put poison in it!”

Dickerson: [00:15:55] So they invited all of the parents to come, just to be involved with the lunch program, you know. And, you know—they came up and they came up with their baskets of food. [Laughs] So it was really funny! But—school there was very nice, and one of my aunt's lived in a different part of Statesville.

Dickerson: [00:16:24] One of my teachers was not nice to me at all. On my mother's side of the family they got gaps, and she used to tease me about my gap, and I had earrings.

[INTERRUPTION: Memory card ran out]
 
Lewis: [00:16:38] Okay, so we're back. One of the things that you've always brought to Picture the Homeless, and I'm sure, other aspects of your life, that is something very beautiful, is your singing. And I want to know if you would tell me the story of when you started singing and realized that you are a beautiful singer.

Dickerson: [00:17:04] Wow! Wow. My mother… [Laughs] Wow. My mother played the piano. They were very musically inclined. [Pause] I remember my… We lived in—we were living in Hartford, Connecticut and there used to be a song that my mother—we would sing, and I listened, and we had one of those old-time radio things, that stood up with all the wood and my mother had bought it for Christmas. Because my mother loved music herself, and music was always in the house!

Dickerson: [00:17:54] And I learned that my mother could play some music and she loved to dance! So, I remember my mother would be singing and my brother and I, my baby brother—he would be singing "Go Stagger Lee" and I would say, "Mommy! Sing that song!” And my brother and I would do a duet together and we used to sing this song. “I was standing at the corner when I heard my bull dog bark/he was barking at two little/to the gambling in the dark.” And we would stand, we would be at the window saying, “Go Stagger Lee! Go Stagger Lee!” [Laughs] So, my mother said, “You two get out of the window! [Laughs] Singing, “Go Stagger Lee.”

Dickerson: [00:18:37] And then my mother would also… The first time I went in church, my mother went to church but [pauses] because of the different lifestyles that my moms and she learned about my father—he drank, and he did not want my mother to go to church.

Dickerson: [00:18:56] And the first time that I remember going to church was an Easter Sunday morning and one of the songs that I learned was “Blessed Assurance, Jesus is Mine.” I didn't even know, but I—we came into church and people… We sat down, because Easter Sunday's a very high holy day. Everybody comes to church that don't come to church normally, you know—and this woman had me, and I was singing this song, [imitates her younger self] “This is my duty! This is my duty!” [Laughs] And the lady said, “No, that's not it.”

Dickerson: [00:19:35] And she started to say the words to me, and I was so happy—just being there, and I started to sing, and people around listened—saying, “Wow, that little girl!” And I was five-and-a-half.

Dickerson: [00:19:53] And my mother had—was going to… She got an audition to sing with Nat King Cole and Nat King Cole's father was a minister and Nat knew that my mother—that was not really, you know… She has a beautiful voice, she’s a soprano, she had three or five octaves that she could sing, and my mother wanted to sing opera.

Dickerson: [00:20:28] So, as we got older—as I got older, [pauses] I started to sing. And now that… As I became an adult, I sang on different—I have sung with… And it's been gospel, and in College... I sang with the Edward Hawkins Gospel Work Ensemble… Triborough Mass Choir... It was Triborough—yeah, it was—and now they have become very famous in the gospel arena and also with Azusa, which is under Bishop Hezekiah Walker, which has won the Dove. 
 
Dickerson: [00:21:20] I don’t… In regards to singing, it's something that—I just do, it's from the heart. When things get to me—we would sing, you know. It’s something that we did. It’s just natural, you know. And my brother, which was the lead singer for Tower of Power. He played seventeen instruments and read most—a lot of music.

Dickerson: [00:21:50] So, that gift is just embedded, you know. I don't—I don’t make no big thing, you know [smile], I just do it! People are somewhat amazed, they say, “I didn't know you could sing!” I said, “You didn't ask me!” I said, “I can carry a tune!” [Laughs]. I just leave it like that, you know, that's that.

Lewis: [00:22:15] I remember one-time, Reverend Billy was looking for a singer and I said, “I know someone here [laughter] who's a wonderful singer!” And he says, “Well you know, I can't hear her over the phone!” And I said, “Well, just give it a shot, just get a taste! And you got on the phone…

Dickerson: Mm-Hmmmmm.

Lewis: Remember this?

Dickerson: Mm-Hmmmmm.

Lewis: And sang, and he immediately invited you to be part of his choir [smiles] because you were—you are, such a beautiful singer.

Dickerson: [00:22:44] Thank you. It's just, you know, I don't—I don't, say I'm one of those outrageous… But, I guess I’ve… And some of the things that I have ventured—you know, got into… Singing—I'm like, I just did it. You know, and a lot of them—you know, in college, I've been on a couple of recordings and stuff like that. So, you know—like I said people are like, “I didn't know you could sing.” And I say, “You didn't ask me.”

Dickerson: [00:23:23] So, I mean, you know that’s something I grew up… My mother, she sang… I listened to—we would have Brook Benton. She loved Dinah Washington, anything with Nat King Cole, oh—Billie Holiday, Mahalia Jackson. My grandmother used to like this Suwanee Canton—it was a Quartet singer, she liked that and Sam Cooke—Sam Cooke, and the Soul Stirrers, those are people that I kinda, you know we had in our house, playing that kind of music. You know, it was almost music that we had. When Grandma was around we'd play certain things, when my mother was around I used to play certain things. But I’ve always—music has always been… Singing, and music has always been a part of me, you know, it's just always just been a part of me.

Dickerson: [00:24:30] I was not really one—everyone played an instrument! You know, I did some guitar… The last venture I did was playing the congas! And I love drums! I really love drums, so I'm hoping in the near future that I—because the drums, it's a beat, it's a sound, and it's so rhythmic, and it just… If you listen to the drums, it talks to you. I think it does and I like being able to—you know, dance to my beat, and sing my song.

Lewis: [00:25:14] Hmmmmm. So, tell me about the time that you first heard about Picture the Homeless.

Dickerson: [Laughs] Wow. [Laughs] I laugh because I came—I came looking for… I saw an ad; a flyer of some sort, and it was—I think it was Community Voices Heard. I came to 116th Street and they had this Cuchifritos, downstairs, and I was like, “Wow, I'm in Spanish Harlem, woo! Oh, this is nice!” And I was just amazed you know, because my baby brother always came to Harlem, you know—and he's always—and I'm like, ”I'm going there.”

Dickerson: [00:26:04] So, I was in the shelter, and I wanted to see what I—you know, what I could do, and I wanted to have an activity that I could do—and getting involved with people because I've been involved with social justice a long time—teenager—that's what we did in our… In Crown Heights, in our community.

Dickerson: [00:26:31] So, I walk up the stairs, and I knock on the door, and it says CVH. I'm like, “Okay...” I look and I didn't see nobody, and I'm looking around and I see people in a meeting. I had to walk over—nobody came to the door or anything. So, I stood there for like maybe five minutes or so, and no one was there. So, I walked… CVH was at one door, and I walked outside, and I saw this door that said, “Picture the Homeless.” I said, “Picture the Homeless!” I said, “What kind of mess is that?!” [Laughter]

Dickerson: [00:27:14] Picture the Homeless! I said, “Who put some mess like that.” [Smiles] I said, “This is crazy. I'ma go in here and see.” So, I went in there and I saw this table. It had all kinds of brochures and stuff… So, I heard somebody say, “Hi! How may I help you?” I said, “I see on your door it says Picture the Homeless. What you mean?! What do mean by Picture the Homeless?” [Laughs] So, it was Sam, so he says, “Are you new?”

Dickerson: [00:27:48] I said, “Yes, and I'd like for you to explain what you do.” So, Sam came, and then Roosevelt came out, and Tyletha was in the other room, [smiles] and she was talking, and she said, “Hi!” and I said, “Hi!” So, you know, people was like really hospitable, they were coming out. So, I said—I said to them, “I was next door.” And I showed them the flyer. I said, “But tell me something about you. I'm kind of interested and I would like to do something, you know. I want to know something about you.”

Dickerson: [00:28:25] So they—you know came and they said, “Well, we have a meeting later on.” I said, “You have a meeting?” She said, “Yes. You can come, we would like to have you. You can come and see what we're about.” I said, “Oh!” And he said, “We also have refreshments.” I said, “You do?!” I said, “Okay!”

Dickerson: [00:28:45] So, I waited around, and you know, they had different ones come in. They had Jean, Jean Rice. They had John, Marco, Jean, Roosevelt, Leroy was there, Tyletha was there. And you know, it was really—people started to come in and said, “Who's here for the first time?” And you know, “Stand up and give your name.” And it's been from there… It's been, you know, it’s just been—I just took it on from there because, I liked what—I liked the way they greeted me, you know, and they got my nose up in the air, [smiles]. So, I was happy about that, you know.

Lewis: And that was in maybe, 2006?

Dickerson: Five

Lewis: 2005—so that's twelve years ago.

Dickerson: Mm-Hmmmmm.

Lewis: [00:29:53] Were you—were you still working as a home health aide then? I seem to... I don't know if my memory is faulty.

Dickerson: [00:30:01] I was [pauses] working… Yes I was. I was working, I was working, but I was looking for something else to do and I was also in the shelter. So, I was really looking for something to do. I needed… I had been involved with the Coalition for the Homeless and I had also been involved with Life and Faith Sharing. Life and Faith sharing is one of those non—it's an interfaith group and I did things with them and when I was in the shelter in ninety-five, no ninety-six, ninety-six/ninety-five, when I was in the shelter…
 
Dickerson: [00:30:55] So, you know being in the shelter it's always good to have—a support. I say, a group, to know that you're not in this by yourself. So I think that's very, very important because sometimes when you're with a group of people, especially if you're experiencing homelessness, it's always… To be—to have somebody that you can really lock arms or heads up with. So when those days of dealing with a system that is so corrupt and—and don’t treat you like a human being, to connect up with.

Lewis: [00:31:40] Hmmmmm. That's powerful. For—could give you an example, or tell a story, of when either you felt like you weren't treated like a human being, or you saw someone else not treated like a human being—so, for people to understand.

Dickerson: [00:32:05] Wow. When I was sixty-eight and Lexington, we had there—the administration… It was an armory, and it was for women, and it was supposed to really… In the beginning it was for working women. And people would fill out different things for housing, and then all of a sudden we lost a housing specialist.

Dickerson: [00:32:38] So, we had no one there and even though you had a case manager, they didn't do nothing, you know. There's some case managers, and very rare, that would be able to connect you with—with finding a place, you know—finding an apartment or studio, or whatever.

Dickerson: [00:33:04] And… Then they started coming in, wanting to do locker searches, and... There was locker searches and then there was… When I had got sick, and I wanted to… I had a torn meniscus, and I would ask them, you know, “I have a…” We had to have a pass in order to stay in your room.

Dickerson: [00:33:36] So, they had one—one case manager. She was just really, really nasty. She would come in the room doing her rounds and I would always have my pass... Somehow or the other, somebody decided to play a game and remove my pass… So, I didn't find it and she came in and she started yelling and hollering and screaming at me, and I’m like, “Yo, this is crazy...”

Dickerson: [00:34:06] So, I just got a little ticked off—and I was frightened, because I had never lived under that kind of condition, and that bothered me, you know, and… I just had to—you know, I like… “I'm not trying to bother nobody.”

Dickerson: [00:34:28] And one experience that I remember [laughs], I kind of chuckle to myself. They had this woman, and her name was Miss Taylor—and Miss Taylor would, at five—before—it was five-forty-five, and this woman… The lights would turn—start turning, you hear her coming up the stairs… And she had a bullhorn.

Lewis: A bullhorn!

Dickerson: A bullhorn.

Lewis: And this is five-forty-five a.m.?

Dickerson: [00:35:05] Yeah. Five-forty-five, she'd start up, and she would go knocking on the door, “Turn the lights on!” And then, six o'clock—she's would say, [imitates Miss Taylor] “Rise and shine! It's time to get up!”

Lewis: In the bullhorn?

Dickerson: [00:35:24] On the bullhorn. [Laughter] I remember… And it scared—it frightened me! And my heart would start beating real fast! And then she'd come and say, “I said rise and shine, time to get up! Rise and Shine, everybody get up!” [Laughs]

Lewis: Good lord.

Dickerson: [00:35:47] And they would throw… You know, after a while—people got tired [laughter] and then finally I just got mad, you know? And they would turn—she'd turn the lights on and turn them off, and she would go around and make her rounds three times. And I saw a note talking about the Coalition for the Homeless. I said, “Whoa! Let me…” I said, “We need to do something about that because this woman can't be doing that. She almost have you having a heart attack!” And it was really, you know, really frightful.

Dickerson: [00:36:25] So, I told them, “Yes, let's write and tell them that she's with this bullhorn. ‘Rise and Shine.’” So, somebody said, “Let's take a picture of it. I’m—somebody sneak something.” And I said, “Let's take a picture and send it to them.” And that was one of the beginnings of some stuff that I did, in there. And so, she got written up! But she didn't know [laughs] that I had instru… [Laughs] You know, because I got a lot of people—because I had—I know what it means to have petitions. So they was like, “Oh yes, we're going…”

Lewis: Crown Heights

Dickerson: [00:37:04] Yeah! Yeah! We got… Yo, this bozo the clown got to go! So—so, then she was mad about that. She was like, “I don't know which one of you…” And she was cursing, “Which one of you SOB's did this? But, I’ma still… I don't need no bullhorn. I'll just use my mouth!” And Miss Taylor did that. And we wrote her up again. Then I went to a meeting, and we wrote her up, and finally, you know, she had to stop.

Dickerson: [00:37:35] So, I mean, I've seen a lot of things go on in the system, that was really inhumane. Really, really inhumane and I have gotten retaliation and harassment because I reported them. When I first came into Picture the Homeless they would leave notes on my bed or when I was coming in, they would tell me, “Well, you know Miss Dic—you gotta come and talk to us.” “About what?”

Dickerson: [00:38:22] And I remember one time I was on my way to work, and the Director asked me, “I want to talk to you” I said, “I'm on my way to work!” “Well I need to talk to you now.” I said, “I can't talk to you now because I got to be to work, and I don't need to be late.” I would talk to you… So I got on the phone, and I talked to somebody, and I said, “This man is retaliating.” So, he said, “You're a smart ass.” I said, “So are you! I don't talk to you like that, and...” I've seen things done… [Long Pause]

Dickerson: [00:39:02] Another thing came to my mind, was a woman that—she had a deformed foot and she always had problems with it. And she was from—I think she from Colombia, Colombia, or Venezuela, and this lady, she was an older woman and she was here illegally, you know. And this woman would complain about her foot, and the Assistant Director complained… No, he didn't complain—he told her that he was going to put her out on the street.

Dickerson: [00:39:45] So, I intervened. She really didn't care for me, but then finally I got someone to talk to her. I got Picture the Homeless, was one. I also got Life and Faith Sharing because Sister Dorothy spoke Spanish and I learned that Sister Dorothy was a social worker. So she wrote up the papers, you know—to try and get her the right papers—and that this woman also had problems with her foot. So, with PTH getting on her—you know talking, connecting to the right people, the lady had legal help and help with immigration and she also, later on, they found her a place and she was able to connect with her family.

Dickerson: [00:40:43] And when, one day I saw her, and the—I'm not going to mention the name. He couldn't say nothing to her, and I said, “Good! You can't talk to her!” [Laughs] He didn't like that. Man, when I got ready—she got ready to leave, you know, she walked over to me and she started to cry and she said, “Miss DeBoRah, I love you because you have helped me and now I got a casa.” I said, “Apartamento?” She said, “Si”, [smiles] and I said, “Oh excellente!” And she said—I said, “And your salud?” Her health? She said, “Oh! They got me a Doctor!” And I stood there, and I cried. And it was so important, because she would sit nights, and days, and this was supposed to be a medical center and they didn't help people.

Lewis: [00:41:50] So you were the bridge in that case, because you were a shelter resident so you could see what she was going through. And you were also telling a story about how you were organizing in the shelter to deal with an abusive staff person.

Dickerson: [00:42:12] Yeah! I have organized two Client Advisory Boards.

Lewis: Hmmmmm. Tell me about that.

Dickerson: [00:42:29] The first—no three! The first Advisory Board was sixty-eighth [street] and Lexington, and I became the Sergeant of Arms [laughs] and also the Secretary, the Corresponding Secretary. We had so much going on and I just—there was someone there, and we didn't have anybody, and I just started to talk to different women, and I had the Coalition to come in and talk to the women and they told us how we could have an advisory board and that was at sixty-eighth and Lexington in the late nineties. In 2005 and '06 there was a Client Advisory Board at eighty-five Lexington, which was in Brooklyn under BRC. So, we started a Client Advisory Board there. I started one there.

Dickerson: [00:43:48] The next Advisory Board I started was with Olivieri, which was—it was a drop-in center that was under Urban Pathways, and I told the women that we need to start an Advisory Board and I went to meetings to see what we could do—and they had no literature or anything, so I began to search out and I told them, “Listen, we have our little group, we can have a Client Advisory Board.” So, we started an advisory board, at Olivieri.

Dickerson: [00:44:33] And the unique thing about Olivieri was that this was—it was a drop-in center for women that had mental health issues. So—you know, it was a mix of—a mix, but you did have a lot of people with mental health issues. So, that was significant because now we have a voice and I was able to help some women—who were some great fighters and they connected with their families, and they also got some apartments and, you know—that was important. You know, because I told them, “You have a voice. We can sit up and organize.” So, you know—I guess the good Lord had kinda allowed me to help others to get ourselves together. [Smiles].

Lewis: [00:45:36] Hmmmmm. One of the really powerful things that I'm hearing in what you’re saying, is that when you came to Picture the Homeless, you were already organizing and your whole life, in many ways, had taught you that, right? And so, you find yourself in the situation, and you’re looking for organizations to hook up with.

Lewis: [00:46:07] And I heard you talk about folks at Picture the Homeless being welcoming. What has kept you at Picture the Homeless all these years, because it's a significant commitment that you have made.

Dickerson: [00:46:24] Wow. One, [pauses] I have to say—I didn't have to be homeless. I have family that had… I have some family members that had two or three homes, right next, and nobody stayed there, you know. And they were very mad with me you know, because I became homeless but I… It was a decision that I made. It was like, either sink or swim. And that was something that I—I wanted to… I did. Not want—I did. It was difficult. It was hard. And it hurt. And I know, my moms, she said she would worry about me, and I had a cousin, she did have her own business, she was like, “Yo, you can come down here.” And I said, “Nah.” And it's a decision that I made. [Long Pause]

Dickerson: [00:47:40] I [pause] After I learned about what homeless people were going through, the first time I came in, I stayed in the system for four years. Not because I wanted to… God knows that was not the situation.

Dickerson: [00:48:01] And I remember that—they lost… You had people that—they had been there for such a long time, and I said, “They put us on a dead or alive list…” [Laughs] You know, and they put everybody's name on their—on this list and put it on the bulletin board. They were taking our records, and… The records were being stored in a room that was not—it was in storage and there was no lock and key. So people could come in any time and look at anything they want to. So that was a problem that I had a issue with.

Dickerson: [00:48:51] And being the fact that I had—while I was in the shelter system, I had three major surgeries, you know, and my health started to decline. I came in with kind of a health issue. You know, my leg was bothering me. I had a torn meniscus and then later on, I had to—I had to have surgery on the meniscus, so it's kind of scary.

Dickerson: [00:49:29] And… Yeah, I came with skills—organizing, in the Crown Heights that I grew up, and even I can say on my mother's side… I have a statement that, “Either you're going to be part of the problem, or part of the solution.” Someone said that’s part of Tupac. I don't know, it’s just something that, you know—I just feel very passionate about... Instead of sitting around saying, “Oh! This is wrong, that's wrong.” Do something about it!

Dickerson: [00:50:11] We had growing up, a vacant lot… And we had one and it was just really—people throwing garbage, so… I was part of the block association—I said, “Instead of doing that we’ll just go clean this block up.” And I came out there one day, I said—I asked a few people, we got some rakes and stuff, and we started some garbage bags and started cleaning that… Next thing I know, the kids started coming around and we started a Junior Block Association. I didn't say nothing about it.

Dickerson: [00:50:47] Then I told them… You know, police—where I grew up, right near the precinct, they was giving people tickets. So, I became involved with—I got involved with the seventy-seventh precinct council. So, I got on their board—the seventy-seventh precinct council and I was the Corresponding Secretary, and then I… Then they kind of promote—I don’t know what they—someone that I know, that was—he's a former politician, was [unclear] he asked me to come on board and I became the third vice-president.

Dickerson: [00:51:24] So—and I told my neighbors, “Listen, we got to do something about these police. So when one of us get a ticket we're just going to start knocking on the door and we're going to storm in the precinct and tell them—show them the tickets. I can't do anything if—I can’t… I'm a part of this but I need you to come out and be with me.” And I can say that they never failed me.

Dickerson: [00:51:52] I didn’t own—my mother and I, we were not owners—home owners but we were tenants. But the twelve hundred block of Saint Marks _backed me up _and they did not let me down, and as a result, I made cakes, brought them in and the organization—the precinct council, they started to grow.

Dickerson: [00:52:24] So, people came out, I said, “You need to come out and not just complain. Ask for solutions that would help.” So, I developed a relationship with community affairs, and it was important. We made sure also—I also voted, and I also said, “Listen, y’all—come on out.” And later I became a county committee person.

Dickerson: [00:52:50] So, I mean, you know—that's why I love, really love PTH. The things that we do, people don't understand. They say you never know, instead of criticizing somebody until you walk in their shoes.

Dickerson: [00:53:11] And, you know—one thing, when we did the count, that made it so important. I was like in another world—I didn't realize, and when the actuality of us going out and counting, it made it so real. And I thought about—what about those people… We can do something with some—with these places. I didn't mind doing that.

Lewis: [00:53:39] And what were we counting, for people that are listening to this.

Dickerson: [00:53:44] We were counting vacant buildings and properties. We had a meeting one night, and I got so fired up and mad. I said, “Anger can be constructive and destructive.” Well, I'm going to talk about the constructive part of anger.

Dickerson: [00:54:06] At 116th Street between Lexington and First [Avenue] if my memory corrects me because I’m getting a little—you know, I don't remember everything… [Laughter] So, we had some buildings, and these buildings were—they had commercial buildings on the bottom and apartment buildings on the top. And Lexington Avenue from 116th  to 114th, I remember there was one block it was nothing but commercial buildings on the bottom and apartment buildings on the top.

Dickerson: [00:54:48] And I said, “Oh my God. Those could be homes for people! They don't have to stay in the freaking shelter.” And that was just the beginning of a little seed that has blossomed and I'm like, wow… And we went out—they said, “We couldn't do it.” But you know,

Dickerson: [00:55:15] I'm going to get to some of my faith. If Jesus took two fishes and a loaf of bread and fed a multitude, well we took some vacant buildings and we counted all these vacant buildings in all five boroughs, and they said we couldn't do it.

Dickerson: [00:55:37] And that has really been my passion. I have no children. I'm not close to my family—not because I want to, just things have happened. I have lost a lot. But I have also gained what it means to help in your community. I want our community to have life like other people's communities—people of color and Latino… I'm a senior now and I am disabled…

Dickerson: [00:56:20] They're pushing us out. We don't make the money like they do. But I'ma take what I got and I'ma make it work. When my homecoming, I'm talking about—it's going to be a celebration... That DeBoRah loved her community and loved her people… That I wanted to help! Either I'm going to be part of the solution or part of the problem.

Dickerson: [00:56:55] And that's why, in the times—like I said, I've had three major surgeries! People were nice to me, they were good to me, and they didn't have! And we took what we had—like the fable, chicken soup, stone soup! That's what we did. That's what I saw—people, if you just gave them a chance, and that… I see hope! I see jobs! I see cultural exchange! I see entrepreneurship! I see education!

Dickerson: [00:57:45] Where they have left us out, and I say, “You can't leave us out!” If our former founders, they took a little something, a dream and look at it now. So, you may push us out, but we're not out of the universe. We have work to do! And like I said, those buildings blew my mind.

Dickerson: [00:58:25] And they—we didn't have a lot of people, but we had committed people… And this is what I'm talking about—is commitment. When you believe in something you're committed and you have faith and trust in God, you can do anything.

Lewis: Hmmmmm. Thank you DeBoRah.
 
END OF INTERVIEW