Charmel Lucas

Lewis [00:00:01] So, we'll get started, and today is November 21st,

Lucas: Mmmmm!

Lewis: 2022. And I'm Lynn Lewis in East Harlem interviewing Charmel Lucas via Zoom. And Charmel, could you just share where you are?
 
Lucas: Pronoun? I’m a she. I'm a mom and a widower.
 
Lewis: Okay. And where are you right now, while we're doing this interview?
 
Lucas: I'm actually in my shelter bathroom. I always do my zooms in the shelter bathroom. Al’s watching TV, so... It's a room. It's a hotel room. [Smiles] We make the best of it.

Lewis: Nah, I'm sure you do.

Lucas: [First part of the sentence is unclear] it’s comfortable.
 
Lewis: [00:00:55] So Charmel, could you just share where you're from? Where you grew up?
 
Lucas: Well, I'm from El Barrio. At the time they called it Spanish Harlem. I lived on 113th Street, Park Avenue... I went to Amanda Shay School; I think was like 110th Street. About the age of twelve, I moved to Coney Island. That's where I met my husband at the time. And I also met my friend for life, which is Al. I met him at ten, and I was twelve.
 
Lucas: [00:01:49] And my husband at the time, I mean he wasn’t my husband at the time, but when I met him, I was sixteen and he was twenty one. That's a no-no! But we made it work. We made it work for twenty-two years. And, you know—I went obviously went through some difficulties after his passing. And a few years—look, I can't really say off hand… Maybe four years later, I met my very close friend Al.
 
Lewis [00:02:30] Well, thank you for that, Charmel. And you have—you mentioned you're a mom. So, do you want to share some things about your kids?
 
Lucas Well… I have…. Ah—well, I had five. [Pause] Unfortunately my oldest, he took his life. I'm not really sure how that really—round about. And at this point it doesn't make me no difference because if he took his life—his life is gone. So, I'm dealing with that... I have a daughter now. She's thirty-six, if I'm not mistaken. She's having her first baby. [Smiles]

Lewis: Nice.
 
Lucas: I have Zach, my middle child. Love him to death, he loves me to death... Been a handful. And he’s like thirty-two going on—like thirty-two going on thirty-three. Then I have Garrett. Which, after my husband's demise—Garrett was two at the time and Garrett was really my first hands-on as a child for mine—with autism. Didn't realize it because he was two but after his father passed, he stopped talking and we kind of blamed it on that. But—you know, over the years, he's nineteen now... He does things differently. And my last child is with Al. His name is Alistair. Just turned thirteen, brainiac though—like his father. The president sent him an award for his achievements and sent him an award with the pen—presidential pen. Other than that, at this point And other than that, [cell phone buzzes] at this point with my kids, that's really about—round about with the kids.
 
Lewis [00:04:57] So you're going to be a first time grandma? Is this your first?
 
Lucas: Well, she's one of the women that’s not—really has difficulty carrying. She has difficulty carrying, and... But she's carrying this one. It’s a little boy. Yeah.
 
Lewis: All right.  
 
Lucas: [00:05:18] But no, my first time—grandma was my deceased sons. And it was very tragic because he had his own mental health issues, anger issues, and that will come into the conversation of my homelessness because I had to run from my son because of anger issues. [Long pause] And at a point in his life—his girl, she had a cute little girl. And I'ma be real honest and raw. He didn't want his girlfriend, at the time—to have the baby because she was on drugs. She was on pills. And he seen how obviously she was treating the fetus and I was like, “Well, you know fetuses are very strong, you know. Besides what people put in the body, you know… It’s going to be fine.” And it was.  
 
Lucas: [00:06:27] It was fine. He had a—she had a beautiful little girl. And you know, she had to stay in the hospital a little bit of course, you know—wasn’t being taken care of in the womb. But… And I seen—I seen the glint in his eyes, “Oh yeah, I could do this. I don't have to be angry with the world, ba-ba-ba…” And then unfortunately, he comes home—they’re living in the Poconos. He comes out, they got all these paramedics and—you know, sirens and lights... Look, the Poconos—ain't no lights. So you see sirens and lights a mile away. He get home, his little girl was dead! His little girl was dead. And I was in my first shelter at the time. But my daughter called me on the track phone. I could get calls in, but I couldn't get calls out. I guess I ran out of minutes.
 
Lucas: [00:07:31] And thank God it was a nice security gentlemen in the building. And I went downstairs. My daughter called me and said “Ma, Jeffrey’s baby’s dead.” I was like, “Oh my God. So I went downstairs to call her, and I guess call him, and… It was just really messy. It was really messy. Don't cry Lynn. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: I’m sorry.
 
Lucas: [Unclear] I'm still here though. I'm still here. But these things wash around my brain, every day.
 
Lewis: I'm so sorry, Charmel.  
 
Lucas: It’s fine. It has to be, so… His daughter’s gone, his father’s gone, and he's gone. So, I’m praying that they’re just waiting for me to come and be grandma up there.
 
Lewis: What—well one day, but I hope in the distant future. [Smiles]
 
Lucas: [Laughs] I hope so too. I got a lot of work here to do.
 
Lewis: [00:8:42] Yeah. And so you moved to—from El Barrio—from Spanish Harlem to Coney Island. And what time period was that? In the seventies, maybe?
 
Lucas: Hmmmmm.
 
Lewis: What was going on then?
 
Lucas: I don’t—what was going on then? When I moved… So, when I moved to Coney Island, I was twelve. I got pregnant at sixteen. But what was going on in the atmosphere, that I was very sheltered from? Was… Heroin. It was a lot of bad heroin going on during that time frame. So, I had I had my son—'84. And I had my daughter—‘85. So, yeah—it was the eighties. It was the early eighties. You know, hip-hop… Run-D.M.C., you know. Stuff like that. Yeah, it was like the early eighties when I was in Coney Island, you know. And like I said—yeah it was early eighties. I had  my son and daughter ’84, ‘85. Picture this—Labor Day—'84 and ‘85. You know how many jokes there were, “You were in labor on Labor Day?!” [Laughs] I had them both on Labor Day. So, it was so beautiful out of that. I had two children. One year apart. But I had them… So, when they both turned sixteen, I had two sixteen year olds for one day. Every time, it was just two for one day, two two year olds, two three year olds—one day. I thought that was very unique of God.
 
Lewis: [00:10:42] You mentioned you were very sheltered. Who was sheltering you? Was it your parents or what was that about?
 
Lucas: Well so… My childhood was my mom, I guess. Well, I was born in ’67 and back in those days—I was told, you know… She was on heroin herself. And she—her mother—which is my grandma... So my grandma’s sister said, “I will take the baby.” Talking about me. And what happened was—that I was told—you know how it go… She'll take the baby. So, you know—my great aunt, you already had two kids, older kids. I don't know how old they were at the time but, you know—she was doing well for herself. So, my grandma already has seven kids of her own. She couldn't take a grandbaby and—and I went home with my great aunt, seven days old.
 
Lucas: So, well… The respect and the love from my elders or just people—I learned from my great aunt. I didn't learn—I can't say I didn’t learn nothing from my mom but my great aunt—I give her all the credit for who I am.
 
Lewis: [00:12:15] Can you tell me a story about your great aunt? That, when you think about her [smiles], a story that you really like to tell, or a memory.
 
Lucas: [Laughs] Well… At the time… Oh! So, many stories. At the time... My best memories of my great aunt is us saying our prayers on New Year's Eve. We got down on our knees and we just prayed. It wasn’t like no prayer ritual, or... It was just get down on your knees, on New Year's Eve and thank God for the year. Thank God for the people. Those were really my best memories. And like I said, It was no Bible, you know—slammed down. It was, “We’re just going to get on our knees.” You know, I kind of looked forward to it. “We're going to get down on our knees and pray.”  She was a very wise woman.
 
Lucas: [00:13:24] And a little bit about her. Her mother died when she was fourteen and she had to raise her siblings. Yeah. [Pause] And I guess my family's been hurting since my great grandma had died because... Now this—it really goes deep, how… Children are rebellious. And my great aunt was born in 1924. I don't know what year her sister was born. But—ironic! Her sister had an argument with their mother. And she told her, “I hope you drop dead.” And when she came home from school, she was dead. Uh!!! Child… Oo-weeee! [Long pause] And I'm like—like I said, my great aunt was born 1924. So these are in the 1920s. And it was no hard feelings about what my grandma told her mother. Her mother died of appendicitis. [Long pause] But that had to stick with her. Appendicitis!
 
Lucas: [00:14:48] And then you know, back in those days they had to have the corpse in the house. I don't even know how long, and most of my elders passed or got dementia. So, nobody needs to know how long the coffin was there, but it's just a point of matter. [Smiles] Look, you said you wish your mother dead, she’s dead and now you got to stare at her for how many days? I mean, really people! [Laughs] It's not funny. We can laugh about it now. Let's—look, the body at the funeral parlor. [Laughs] I’m sorry…
 
Lewis: You know...
 
Lucas: Are we going to do our whole chapter with this? [Laughs] I’m just messing with you. But that’s the truth, boo. That’s really the truth. That was really the truth.
 
Lewis: [00:15:42] You know, where we come from and who we think of as our teacher… Is like your great aunt sounds like she was one of your—or maybe your main teacher when you were growing up. And you know where we come from and who our teachers are—you know that's our foundation, right?
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: And so I think it's—I think it's really powerful what you just shared. And I appreciate it. I really do.
 
Lucas: This is—there’s no reason to lie about nothing at this point. Excuse me. I got a call... Okay. I'm ready.
 
Lewis: [00:16:25] Alright. Okay. And so, when you were growing up, I guess it was in the in the eighties when your children were little—and you stayed living in Coney Island?
 
Lucas: No. So what had happened was—I was sixteen and got pregnant. And you know, my great aunt, she hadn’t had a little baby in the house since me. But she do have a grandson, but you know... She was just so in love with little Jeffrey. That's—that’s my son that passed. The first child. But when I got pregnant again, they said, “Oh, it’s time to go.” That… [Laughs] It was the truth. They said, “It is time to go.” Yeah.
 
Lucas: [00:17:17] So, I raised little Jeffrey in Harlem. 147th Street. Yeah. 210 West 147th Street. And so, I am seventeen and pregnant—I already did sixteen. Had him at seventeen but now I’m pregnant again. Seventeen pregnant… They said, “No…” You know, I don't think my great aunt really wanted me to go—her husband. [Pause] It was fine. So, my parental mom heard, “Oh, she’s pregnant or is pregnant again…
 
Lucas: [00:18:01] And they hooked me up with the apartment. 210 West on 147th Street, in Harlem—worst drug building on the block! They said it was the worst drug building in that area! But I'm young. I'm not on drugs, smoked no pot. I wasn't even on cigarettes, wasn't drinking—nothing. And I raised them there… So, oh—that was such an experience, 147th Street. Drug dealers upstairs—ohhhh! I didn't have a house phone at the time. I heard so much so much stuff that happened in that building.
 
Lucas: [00:18:51] I heard—I heard a young lady being raped, upstairs—in the apartment upstairs. And I’m with my kids father at the time and we heard her just screaming and screaming. And we didn't have a house phone, we didn't have a track phone. We had nothing. And I just remember laying in his arms and I was like, “Oh my God! “ I just, you know—I'm pregnant. I already got my other—my son, and I’m pregnant. I was just like, “Oh my God… I just can’t listen...”
 
Lucas: And he said, “Baby, she shouldn’t have never been up there. But I said, “I can't take no more. What could we do?” And he said, “There's nothing we could do…” Because he was—look I guess I was... He was twenty-one when he had his first. He was twenty-two when he had his second. He's becoming a man. And he said, “Baby. She had no business being up there.” And that night just went by and, you know… The building was full of drug dealers. Nobody cared.
 
Lucas: [00:19:59] We had a 7A administrator, which was a family—uncle. So… Anyway—Watson! Watson was going out with my aunt, and he owned the building, because he was 7A. And didn't know that they had the Con Edison lights all jacked up. Con Ed would come through once in a while, turn the lights out... Like, “Ah!” [Laughs] Then, after they calmed down—whoever had the hook up knew how to hook it back up.
 
Lucas: [00:20:37] And so after living through some of that… And I think the last straw was... My husband at the time, he had just landed a job with FJC security. And that's through a uncle. So, one particular—middle of the night, you got this bang-bang-bang at the door. It's the cops. Now he's naked. He's naked in the bed. It's the cops! And I'm like, “Oh my God!” So, I'm panicking, “Hurry up. Open up…” He said, “I'm not going to open the door naked.” [Laughs] And so… But he opened the door! And they asked us—you know, about drugs, blah-blah. “We young. We ain't doing no drugs. We ain’t selling no drugs… And the cops told him, “You need to get your family out this building.”
 
Lucas: [00:21:42] So, the journey went from then... Told my father about—which unfortunately, he was a drug dealer, he had did his time, blah-blah-blah... I told him about it, but he had a good friend, Tina McCray at Congressman Rangel’s office. And he told me to go to her so I could move to the projects. I was on the list for the projects. This was a tenement. He told me to go to her and let her know who I was and have her to call Housing. And she did.
 
Lucas: [00:22:21] And so the stories of people saying they had to wait fourteen years to get into the projects… It took me to two. Two years—with her calling. I'm calling. You know, at this point now we got the phone. Because in the beginning we didn't have. But we got the phone, so… She's calling and calling every day and every day... I mean, it was only two people answering the phone. You could recognize the voice—it was a man and a woman. “What’s your last four digits?” Give it to ‘em. “You’re on the waiting… You’re on the waiting…” Then I go to her, “My constituent here, Charmel Lucas, she’s got these kids, she's in a drug infested building. She needs to move. What's the problem? What's the problem?”
 
Lucas: [00:23:11] So, a little bit after that—a few months, like I said—it took me two years to get in there. I kept calling, they said, “They’re only taking working people.” Working people were being called but I finally got to a project list, and they said, “They’re only taking working people. Okay, so I wasn’t working. He was but he wasn't on my case. Because he's working and I'm getting welfare. Yeah, I’m getting welfare. So, you know—and the projects came through and they called me for the Millbrook projects in the South Bronx.
 
Lucas: [00:23:53] So that was another opening, especially for my kids. You know, they had their own room... Because we was all sleeping in one bedroom in Harlem. Yeah. Two kids, two cats, [laughs] and two adults.
 
Lucas: [00:24:14] And this is the era when the—when that spaceship had blown up. Because a good friend of mine, she called me because we used to watch the stories all the time—All My Children, One Life to Live, you know... She said—well, my nickname is Candy, and she said, “Candy, did you hear about this spaceship blowing up?!” I’m like, “Girl, no.”  And then of course, it took over all the news and they took the stories off. We wanted to hear what happened to Erika! But the spaceship! [Laughs] But that! Because I didn’t even watch the news back in those days, like that. [Laughs] What is Erika going to do today!? That was the biggest challenge of the week, “Friday! Oh my God. Now we got to wait the whole weekend to see of Erica’s getting married again. Oh!” It was a good time though. It was a... Where you can sit back and worry about Erica Kane? You know that was good times. [Laughs] That’s the truth, boo! Nobody cared about nothing! We wanted to know what’s Erica gonna do. You're in a seventh marriage? Ahhhhhhhh. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: You're a great storyteller. [Smiles]
 
Lucas: It’s the truth. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [Crosstalk] So… Go ahead… Sorry.
 
Lucas: [00:25:35] No, no, no, you go. I was just going to say about—so after, you know—I had moved—got into the projects, you know. Kids getting older, then here comes Zach. And I got three kids and two bedrooms and that... We're just seeing, you know—he grew as a man. You know, God blessed him with a beautiful job. He actually blessed him with two. He chose Con Edison, but he got called to be a bus driver and he chose Con Edison. You know, hey.
 
Lucas: [00:26:13] So after, you know—those years and the kids are growing and, you know… He's always lived in the country, he’s a country boy. But even though he's from Brooklyn, but he was raised down South. And it was just like, “It's time for us to get our kids a place so they can have their own grass outside.” You know, just go outside. You know, project mentality and... So, we did that. We moved there in ‘99. Yeah, ‘99. But at the end of the day, we never forgot about our children's friends because most of them didn't have a two parent household. Single parents—no Dads. So, we always made sure we went back to pick them up, just show them a little country like and then we’ll take them back.
 
Lewis: [00:27:17] So where did y’all move to?
 
Lucas: [Laughs] To the Poconos.
 
Lucas: Tobyhanna. Which now they've been calling it—not even now... Tobyhorror. [Long pause] So what had happened was, we moved to the Poconos—and the reason why… We looked at a lot of stuff. We looked at Hempstead, houses were too close—a little alleyway between my house and yours—no. We didn’t even think about fires and stuff. It was just too close.
 
Lucas: [00:27:55] And you know, they was doing them ads for the Poconos—four thousand dollars. Now, he had good credit through his credit union, his job... So, we had bought some property up there, but we had to build. But you know, not knowing—and if you don't know, they're not going to tell you… You paid on that property for the longest, but it... We wasn't building nothing. It didn't seem like information was coming through. So, I'm not really sure how the transaction had went because it was his credit union and he was handling it, you know. So finally, we wind up buying a house. Buying a house with one property, of course. And… Yeah. Yeah. That's how, you know—that’s how we moved to the Poconos and—beautiful, beautiful.
 
Lucas: [00:28:52] It's just what—hmmmm. At the—so what… And nobody anticipate—we moved to the Poconos because they said they was going to build a train. In the next, what—five years that we lived up there, “Oh, it's going to be a train. You don't have to drive.” You know, and so we was like, “Oh, this is going to be really beautiful.” Because he was commuting from Brooklyn to the Poconos. And it became—of course, wear and tear. He's not getting any younger, you know—and it came to a point, he was sleeping in his car in Coney Island. While we're toasty in the house. Yeah.
 
Lucas: [00:29:39] And not to double back, but I have to a little bit because what had happened was, we got the house in the Poconos. I had my project apartment, and our agreement was, I'll keep the apartment. You know, I'll make sure the apartment is paid and you know, the house is taken care of. But my oldest son, Mmm-Mmmm. It’s party all the time… Child, please. Party, party da-da-da… So we had to wind up giving up the apartment and that's how his father wound up sleeping in his car. Yeah.
 
Lucas: [00:30:22] So, it was a lot of misguided information because I think we probably would have thought three or four or five times, if there was not going to be a train. But you’re going to tell people there’s a train coming. The tracks are already laid down. And I've seen them personally—they’re still there. You know, to me—it’s almost twenty something years, ain’t no train.  
 
Lewis: [00:30:49] And so, how long did that go on for that your husband was sleeping in his car and commuting and you’re all cozy in the Poconos?
 
Lucas: Hmm. It went on… Hmm. So, we moved there in ‘99. I think maybe like 2000, 2001? If… I think maybe like 2000… You know, everybody was in a panic in ‘99, 1999. “Oh, everything gonna black out.” I said, “I hope so, because I don't want my credit report to be…” [Laughs] So, I think it took him maybe about—about a year. And then he wound up getting—stayed at co-workers that were single, stay over at their house. He had a room, you know. He told me he finally got him a room—and he had enough money. When he passed, he was making one hundred and fifty thousand a year. So we had enough to do mortgage and pay for a room. And you know—food, because I wasn't on welfare in the Poconos, you know. Food, light, gas—still enough to survive that.
 
Lucas: [00:32:06] Yeah, so… 2005—he wanted to come home. And I asked him, I said, “You sure?” I said, “You sure?” Because it was late! And he's like—he said—this is the exact words, he said, “Baby, I’m the fuck outta here.” I said, “Oh, okay.” So, talking to my kids in the house, you know—I said, “Look, if your father's not here by midnight or something—it’s time to panic.” But we thought nothing of it. I said that. And we went to bed and woke up to a cop banging on the door and my daughter, she's on the first floor—three story house. She’s on a first floor and she opened the door, and the cop—he was a real prick Lynn, because that cop had my daughter locked up with her friend Ashley doing little petty shit—you know, shoplifting. He knew who she was! He told her that her father was dead. And I know he knew who she was.
 
So, we wake up to her screaming through the house, “Jeff is dead!” Because they didn't call him dad, the oldest two always called him Jeff—name is Jeffrey D. Hudson… They always called him Jeff, “When is Jeff coming home?! When is Jeff coming home?!” [Unclear] So now she’s screaming through the… “Jeff is dead! Jeff is dead!” We’re like, “Oh! God!” [Long pause] She says she fainted—and she said she felt she had fainted. Now he—the cop carried her in the house. But you know—like I said, he was a real prick. Because he knew who my daughter was.
 
Lewis: And how old was she then? More or less? [Long pause]
 
Lucas: I don't think quite in her twenties. ‘84—so I had her in ’85 and he died in 2005, so about twenty.  
 
Lewis: Oh Charmel, you've had your share...
 
Lucas: I’ll never forget that day, babygirl. Never forget that. Uhhh. And I didn’t even tell you what happened up in that house. So, I told you… Well—we'll get to that. Because you’re going to ask me where did my homelessness come in. So, go ahead. Go ahead.  
 
Lewis: [00:34:47] Well, what was it like all the time that you were living in the Poconos with your kids? How was it for you?
 
Lucas: I really loved it! I had a beautiful kitchen. I love to cook. I love to clean. We had a beautiful dog, Akita—a Akita named Ginger, taking her for her walks. Oh, it was just very comfortable, happy... I mean, things wasn’t like, “Oh, we just in heaven.” But it was just beautiful, I had—God had blessed me with good neighbors and I ain’t even talking about neighbors across the street. I'm talking about neighbors in the whole new section. We’re looking out for each other. Unfortunately, a friend of mine, her names Phyllis and her husband wasn't making as much money as mine. They was struggling. It was always seemed like they were just going to struggle, and she wasn’t on no drugs, she didn’t drink, smoke... And so, [pause] I would just always be there for Phil, “Come on Phil, we're going to Wal-Mart…” You know, one of those things.
 
Lucas: [00:35:59] It was a lot going on in the Poconos. I met a lot of people through Zach going to school because the oldest two—after we lost the apartment, now you got to stay with me. Now nobody wants to go to school—the oldest two. Zach, he was in school. He went there in fourth grade. That’s another story, but he went there in fourth grade. And the oldest two, you know—they already been in high school, messing up, blah-blah-blah-blah. It was like either, they go to school or I'm going to get fined every day or sign them out. So, I signed them out. I ain’t got no money because you don't want to go to school! So, the oldest two were there.
 
Lucas: [00:36:46] Jessica, she's a workaholic. She loved to work. My Jeffrey at the time, of course—he hung out with every bad person he could find, in the Poconos. You might as well have stayed in the South Bronx with that drama! [Laughs] I mean, really. I hate to say it—and it’s the truth and anybody could look it up. The first shooting in the Poconos? It was my son Jeffrey's friend. He got shot, not in one leg—in both legs! Visiting my house. I had just had Gary. That was in 2003. We got the news, the helicopters… Oh my God. The first shooting in the Poconos. That was very embarrassing—embarrassing, hurtful. Because, the young man—Michael, his name… His mom trusted me to make sure her son was safe, coming to the Poconos from the South Bronx.  
 
Lucas: [00:37:54] You could have stayed home to get shot! I mean, come on... [Laughs] He could have stayed home to get shot! Come on, now. And look—and at that time, I ain’t gonna lie. Garrett, he was like three months old… I ain’t gonna lie. I told his mom I was going to drive all the way to Allentown—look, from Poconos to Allentown is like an hour and a half drive. I’ve always been a nervous driver, but I know how to drive. I told his mom; I was going like in the middle of the night to go to that hospital to see them. I ain’t gonna lie. I got drunk and I went to sleep. I wasn't driving to Allentown to meet up with them, and blah-blah-blah. And obviously, they didn't stay, and they didn't take him home because he come to my house with bandages on both legs, looking real nasty. [Laughs] So, I don't even recall how… I think he waited ‘til my husband came home because, you know—he would come home at least once a week, or wherever. And I think he took him back. I don't even know how that child got back home. I’m just like—I'm just so over it with y’all. [Laughs]
 
Lucas: [00:39:10] But out of all of that, I became a basketball mom with Zach. And that's when the fun started—little basketball tryouts… I told his father, I said, “They have basketball tryouts! So, I’ma take Zach.” He said, “Good, good.” He was so excited. Oh my God. He was just so excited Lynn. And when he made the team... And his father would always make sure he’d get to them games. Regardless, I don't know how much sleep the man was getting because he was always doing mad overtime, mad overtime. Con Edison laying off… Mad overtime. And he’d get to them basketball games. And he would be so hoarse, “Yeah!!!!!!!!!! Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!” It was just like [laughs] “Shut-up—you know, just wave a hand!” “Yeah Zach!!!! Ba-ba…” Or the team, or whatever... Oh my God.
 
Lucas: [00:40:15] And I still got a lot of good friends—parent friends. And Zach do too, from playing basketball. Zach was so good in basketball they had him playing eighth and ninth grade basketball—games, in one night. And you know, you can't play basketball unless your grades are good.
 
Lucas [00:40:40] That child would go to bed so freaking tired. It didn't turn into a pursuit of a basketball career. [Long pause] I blame myself in a sense, but I blame his older brother. I had so much negativity come into my house. Like I said, he picked every weird friend he could. He couldn’t pick nobody that had a job, or wanted something... Just the weirdos, the parties at night…
 
Lucas: [00:41:15] My daughter got to go to work… We're saying, you know… She's going to call me. So, in the house—I told you, it’s three floors. My room was upstairs with a loft. Second floor was Zach's room with the kitchen—kitchen, living room, dining area, sliding doors that... And downstairs were the two oldest because Zach is the only one that wanted to move with us and came with us, and very excited. So, of course, “Pick the room you want.” And he picked the one by the refrigerator. [Laughs] I ain’t lying! He picked the room by the refrigerator and kitchen. [Laughs]
 
Lucas [00:42:03] So, they was stuck downstairs [laughs] when they finally came. It was like—so Jeffrey the oldest, he thinks, “Oh, it's going to be a party, party, party... Mommy's upstairs…” You know. And it was a particular night—my daughter calls me. So, I brought up the three floors because I bought the phones. Everybody had the phone, so we could do the intercom. So, if I needed—there’s three floors… Look, if I ain’t got to go downstairs… Look, I'ma call Jessica. I'm a call, Zach… I call him—whoever. So we don't have to be running up and down the stairs.
 
Lucas: [00:42:43] And she calls me. She said, “Ma. Would you please tell Jeffrey, get these people out the damn house.” I don't know, it was like two or three o’clock in the morning. He was having a party, and that's how we lost the projects. There he go—party. So, I call security. I'm in a gated community, mind you. Gated community—I called security, and I told them—I said, “Look. My son is having a party.” I didn’t even say what happened, “Too many people here. I just want you to knock on the door. I just want you to knock on the door and say the neighbors are…”
 
Lucas: [00:43:31] Hmmm. Another prick. He’s going to knock on the door saying, “ Oh! Somebody called—and the phone number from here!” What?!! I couldn't believe it. So now, all his friends—they scattered out, blah-blah-blah… Here go my son—he pissed off now. Obviously, he had some mental health issues. He’s pissed off now, argued with me a little bit, “Oh well, you know—some of my friends, you know—they got warrants… And blah-blah…” Well child please—who cares? They shouldn't be here, blah-blah-blah. And I went back upstairs to my bedroom and my daughter now… Not the house phone, she had my cell. She calls me on the house phone and says, “Jeffrey’s getting the shotgun.” I had to hide Lynn, on my deck—in a corner niche of my deck. And if you came to my bedroom and you looked straight out, you wouldn't see nobody in the corner. I had to hide—up and run from my son! I had to run from him, peed in my pajamas, blah-blah-blah… I
 
Lucas: [00:44:49] I tell you, please... That Poconos—I mean, it can be a lot of good things. But what parents didn't realize when they moved there? Yes, it’s a two hour commute on that bus, maybe longer with traffic, or God forbid, an accident. The kids wasn’t going to school! I was home, but the other parents had to leave their kids. They was having parties all the time! And they know Mommy going to take… It took Mommy two hours to get out of here. It's going to at least take her two and a half to get back home. Partied all day… Oh my God. People didn't realize it, just figured, “Look, I'm going to bring my kids up here. I'm going to go to New York, bring that money—New York money, back to the Poconos.” They just turned into a free for all.
 
Lewis [00:45:45] You know, what you say is so true. And I'll share a little bit now, because it's not really part of this interview, but people have this image of rural life being all idyllic and everybody working on a farm, or something. [Laughs]
 
Lucas: You’re absolutely right!
 
Lewis: But kids—yeah, hmmmm?  
 
Lucas: I said, I know what you’re talking about.
 
Lewis: Yeah, kids don't have necessarily a lot to do. And yeah, so it doesn’t always work the way people have in their minds.
 
Lucas: [00:46:20] No, it don't. You know, and you know—at one point, you know, I'm taking… So, Zach was on the basketball team. He was very, very good at basketball. And you know, I admire it all the time, you know. Oh! Even though he was worn out—he’s playing eighth grade and ninth grade basketball? You know, he was only one! The only one they had doing that. They was wearing him out, but I was proud. But then there was kids, parents that’s up there… Got a boyfriend. Not the daddy to the kids. Why is he sitting on his ass with a car in the driveway when I'm taking Zach's friend to the game? So, it was it was just—it was very messy up there in the Poconos. Very messy—ha!  
 
Lucas: [00:47:18] So, when Jeffrey finally calmed down a little bit. A little bit. And I got him a job with my handyman—my husband's passed at this time. He went to go get his money, right? From doing work from a gentleman in area. Why this man got his wife—she's a quadriplegic, turned her into a ho! Quadriplegic ho. And I got that from my great—not my great—my auntie because I told her, I said, “Jeffrey want to go get his money and he didn't want to go by himself because he want all the men to come have sex with his wife.” She’s a quadriplegic and she’s laid up on a couch and he got porn playing all day… . I was like, “What!? Get your money. And that's it.” [Laughs] Oh—there’s stuff going on, and that was years ago.
 
Lewis: [00:48:17] Lord… And how long did you all stay in the Poconos after your husband passed?
 
Lucas: So, here we go with that. So, he passed in ’05… About ’08, because Jeffrey's anger and disrespect was just getting worse and worse. So, before the party—before the party I talked to you about, him and his father got into an argument and. Jeffrey had brought his friends—his friend's family's clothes over to our house to use our washer and dryer. I had a doctor's appointment for Garrett, the next day. So, it was all right, you know. If their lights had went out—you know, blah-blah-blah... And they asked could they use our washer dryer—or they just wanted the dryer. Because I think they was washing clothes and they came—they came and turned their lights off. late. So we said, “It’s fine.”
 
Lucas: [00:49:27] You know, I know of the mom, but she wasn't like, you know—my friend or nothing. But I knew of her. I said, “That’s fine.” So, now we got our neighbors clothes all in my laundry room. And so my husband… So, Jeffrey’s like—Jeffrey, “Your friend need to do something with these clothes. Your mom need to use the washer because she got to take Garrett to the doctor tomorrow.” And it turned into an argument, but it wasn't their first argument. Because when they lived in the Bronx, you know—I guess he was smelling his musk and him and his father fought up there and they had a fight. My daughter called me all screaming and hollering. I said, “Look, I’m in the Poconos. [Laughs] I don’t know what y’all want me to do.” I mean, really… [Laughs] Look, me, and Zach too, are up here. Me, Zach, and the dog we’re having a good time, so I don’t know about what you want me to do? And so that wasn’t their first, but after that laundry argument… And it was argument… That wasn't two arguments—it was arguments, you know, over the years and it got worse and worse, until…
 
Lucas: [00:50:38] Little Jeffrey stabbed his father. [Pause] Look, it's the Poconos. So, what’s on the news? “Jeffrey Lucas stabbed his father!” Jeffrey Hudson… Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. [Pause] So, after all of that, Jeffrey did a year in jail. His father wouldn't press charges. All of Con Edison said, “Press them charges.” He would have got ten freakin’ years. His father said, “No.” So, he didn't press charges. He stayed there a year. I'm going to get to what you’re asking me... Jeff and I would have arguments because I didn't take him commissary money. Nobody wants to drive to freakin’ Allentown! It's an hour and a fucking half! I don't want to drive to Allentown but—you know, sometimes I would and da-da-da.
 
Lucas: [00:51:42] And then—and this is how life will do you. So, him being behind bars he never really got a chance to talk to his dad, like maybe they should had. So, that happened—oof! It happened, like May? Oh, he died in ’05… ‘04—round about the same… Like I said, about a year. He died 05/05/05—my husband, crazy. Cinco de Mayo—I didn't even know it was Cinco de Mayo! I never even heard of Cinco de Mayo. So, he died. So—but we're going to get back… So, the night I told you my husband said he was coming home…“the fuck out of here. He never made it home but my son—my oldest son, that was very disrespectful to him never got a chance to hug his dad and said, “I'm sorry.” Because he had just gotten out of jail maybe a day or two before my husband came home. Never got a chance to say, “Dad, I'm sorry. I love you.” Whatever. Never got… So, I don't know that—that probably helped eat him up over the years.
 
Lucas: [00:53:08] So, after ’05… I had a house fire. So, Lynn you know I drink. Everybody assumed I had the house fire because I was cooking and went to sleep. The God's honest truth is, I had a brand new stove. I had it before my husband had passed. It was—the glass top. Well, it heats up a lot quicker. So this particular day, it was a Sunday. Yeah, it was a Sunday. I made—I love to make yellow rice and beans with baked chicken.
 
Lucas: [00:53:54] And I went upstairs to look for my car registration. Now mind you, my husband has passed so everything—I have to take care of car registration, insurance, all of this shit. So I was like, “Let me put the oil on for the chicken...” I had to water on for the rice. And I went upstairs to look for—through my papers. But when I came back downstairs. I had an open kitchen, and the kitchen was on the second floor. All I saw was poof! I'm like, “Oh shit!” But I had a fire extinguisher. Never put your fire extinguisher in the kitchen. [Laughs] I shot, but I couldn't get to it! So now, the fire extinguisher is in the kitchen—can’t get to that. Garrett, I told you—has autism. He's two at this point, but after his father died—you know, weird activities started happening. He started to be a runner. Always running out.  
 
Lucas: [00:54:54] So I had my handyman lock up all goddamn doors—with pins and shit. I couldn’t  get out my own house! I had to jump from the third floor deck—my room, to the second floor deck.  I couldn't get out my house because I made it safe for my son. And get out my house? I jumped—grace of God, I ain’t broke no bones. But Garrett now, he's still in the house. And I got a dog and a cat—but of course, Garrett. Garrett comes out—because the smoke now… Second floor—so you know, the smoke and the sliding doors, you know… Nobody really talked about, “Close the doors, blah-blah-blah...” I jump out. So, I think Garrett—praise God, couldn't get back downstairs. I yelled to him. I said, “Garett jump to me. Jump.”
 
Lucas: [00:55:48] Which lets you know—if I was drunk, we would both be dead. If I was drunk… I knew enough—all my doors are locked. I knew enough—I have to jump. And I had to make sure my son came out and he went back in, and he came back out and I told him, “Just jump to me.” And he knocked me to my feet, again. I grabbed him and I ran across the street, called the fire department, blah-blah-blah. So now everybody… First of all, people were very jealous—envious, that Jeff and I made it to the next level, of having a house. We invited everybody. Wasn't selfish. But now, I “burnt my house down because I was drunk.” And they sticking to their story. Oh! If I was drunk, I wouldn't be here now! Garrett would be...
 
Lucas: [00:56:45] But that's fine. So Jeffrey was locked up at that point. Not because of his father—because I had a court order of protection on his ass. You're not going to—I'm not going to be fearful in my freaking house—of you. I seen what you did to your father. I went to my daughter's job. She worked at Huxley, the envelope company in the Poconos. I went to her job with a bloody shirt on from him stabbing his father. It was massive! He could’ve died. They had to helivac my husband to the hospital. Helivac! Or he wouldn’t have made it as far as he did.
 
Lucas: [00:57:27] So now… Insurance seen, you know—it was stove fire, blah-blah-blah. They gave me money. So, and while the house was supposed to be fixed, they gave me a rental house. Okay. So beautiful too. It was more beautiful than mine, because it was a two family house and at this point, I'm concentrating on Zach and Garrett and my dog, my cat... So, downstairs had its own kitchen, two bedrooms—kitchen, full kitchen, bathroom. And upstairs they had the same thing. So I was like, “Oh Zach! You know what we're going to do?” Because we learned this lesson of the fire. “We’re going to keep this house and we’re going to rent our house. But Jeffrey’s locked up because he broke the court order protection, prior to the fire. You know, look—you're not going to… You're not going to be antagonizing my son. Everybody's just stressed out, we’re just not doing that. And so, I went to the jail to tell him—you know, “The house is burnt down, blah-blah-blah.” But he still had, I don't know—a few months, for breaking the order of protection.  
 
Lucas: [0:58:51] So… We’re enjoying—you know, the new atmosphere. We're closer to the supermarkets. You know, we got these positive plans. And my friend—the one I told you; you know, she was going through hard times up there. She said she had this dream. And she calls me Candy… She said “Candy, I had a dream. They said they was letting little Jeffrey out.” So, you know—my neighbors, my peoples know what I'm gonna do with Jeffrey. She said, “I had a dream” says, “ You might want to call.” And I called—they said, “No, no. They’ll let you know.” Because with a court order of protection, they’re supposed to let you know. And, so she kept that in my ear. So I kept calling. And this one particular day I said, “Are they letting my send out?” He said, “Oh yeah, he's going to be out in two hours.”
 
Lucas [00:59:42] What? So—two hours? Honey, gave me two hours to pack up what I could, and I had to leave my dog and I drove to Maryland, to my friend Trisha’s house. I couldn't take the dog to her house. I could had probably—she had a house. But, you know—I guess we wasn't really hoping it's going to be this long; you know? And I remember telling Zach—I was like, “Zach. Look, they’re letting your brother out and I’m the fuck outta here. I'm not gonna deal with it.” And he thought I was really joking. I started packing my fucking—my SUV, and I had a—what do you call it now? It’ll come to me. But I had my little SUV and I packed, and I packed… And Zach realized—he was like, “Ma ain’t playing.” No, I ain’t playing with this. So, he packed up all his stuff in a big giant sheet [laughs] like Santa Claus and threw it in the car.
 
Lucas: [01:00:39] So now, all of Jeffrey's friends in the Poconos, they knew the fire and they knew where I had moved to. That young man called and called all the way to Maryland, “Where y’all at?” And I wouldn't answer my phone, so he kept calling Zach’s phone, “Where y’all at? Is somebody going to pick me up?” So of course, his slimeball friends came and picked him up—took him to my other house for him to destroy that—party, party, party. [Pause]
 
Lucas: [01:01:17] And that became—that was the beginning of my homelessness... Running from my son. Running from him, because it is going to be either him or me. And I went to the—I could have bought a gun real easy. Clean record, home owner—I went. Zach and I went. You know, he's fascinated, “Oh guns!” I mean, I was going to buy it at least to have something out there that—shoot our fishhooks, I guess like a—the what’s its name gun they got—sting gun. In the Poconos, they got something to shootout fish of… I didn’t want to kill the child, I just wanted to keep you away—give me some time. You know what I'm saying? I seen the damage you could do.
 
Lucas: [01:02:04] And that began the beginning of my homelessness. Later, at my friend Tricia's…  People try to beat people, but you know, at the end of the day... I had just told her—I stayed with her maybe a month. No, Jeffrey. He called me at her house over and over, cursing me out, cursing her out. So I had told her, I said, “Well look, Trish” I said, “I'm getting my husband's Social Security money.” I said, “Look Trish, if I’m going to be here I'll help you with half of your mortgage. But God was good! That same day, the same realtors—and I told the realtors everything I told you, the one—the insurance company, why I had to leave. They found me a beautiful condo in Maryland. I didn't have to give her a dime. I know she didn't feel that too much, but anyhow…
 
Lucas: [01:03:01] And… that was my first point of being a little homeless, but now I got the condo. Now, they’re supposed to be fixing my house, which I got ripped off on that because, you know—insurance people, they do a little bit of work and if you're not there on top of them, eyeballing them… “Bye-bye, bitch. [Laughs] We got your money! We got a house and we doing us!” So, that's what had happened.
 
Lucas: [01:03:35] So, months went by and unfortunately, Al’s mom has passed. I hadn’t spoken to Al since—oh! Over twenty something years. I've known him since he was ten, and he was a little bit a part of my husband's family, but not by blood—you know, that’s other crazy stuff, but… And I invited him to come to a barbecue with me, to stay with me… Garrett went down south to stay with his auntie, so we had a whole bedroom—you know, extra bedroom for him to chill. [Pause] And… After his mom had passed—you know, we was taking car rides—you know, to his mom's house. You know, there was a lot of stuff—spiritual stuff, going on. And I just—as a friend, I just really couldn't leave him there. So I told him to come stay with me, in Maryland. Which was fun—you know, we had fun... You know, I had my money, you know and unfortunately he had his mom's deceased money. But, you know, we made the best out of wherever.
 
Lucas [01:04:48] So… It gets juicy. So, the landlord—so, my insurance company would send me the check to give to the landlord. So, the sister that was management—taking these check, right?  Everything was good for a few months. But now here she go, “Child, I’m getting ready to move to Florida!” So I’m like, “Oh that’s wonderful.” You know that chick ran to Florida with everybody’s rent checks!? And I was very sloppy. I didn't have receipts and stuff, like stacked here and there.  Quick eviction! I don’t even think it was thirty days. Quick eviction. [Long pause] They threw Al’s fish tank—so, you know we’re there, we’re going to make us a household, whatever… You know, there was fish tank outside—they died from the cold. Had to pick Garrett up from school. He's a baby, you know—how do you tell… You know—just, “We’re not going back there…” But that was—that was our first. And I have to say, I can’t speak for Al, that was our first experience of homeless.
 
Lucas: [01:06:17] She ran off with everybody’s checks, right? And then bragged to everybody. [Unclear] So, when the new girl came. There was no—there was no records or nothing. There was no record of nothing! And the new girl that came in, she was younger than me and Al. And I don't think how—I don't think she cared for how Al and I cared for each other! We were just like two kids—I mean, not disrespectful and just enjoying our lives! His mom is gone. My husband is gone. We’re here and we’re going to make the best of this. And that's what we did.
 
Lucas [01:06:57] And baby… Mmm-Mmm Mmm-Hmmmm. So that was my first experience with homelessness—running from my son! That killed himself any damn way! Oh, child please… I'm sorry. [Laughs] It’s the truth! He killed himself any damn way. Not to say—you know, it’s very unfortunate but God damn! So I got to go through all of this? Ha! What? Because I loved him that much—because I would have killed him my damn self! I loved him that much; I’d run from you. [Long pause] Go ahead Lynn!
 
Lewis [01:07:36] So what happened? Where did you and Al go after that eviction?
 
Lucas: Oh! Well thank God we had some cash. You know, my monthly money was coming in. And we went to a hotel—with a cat and a dog.
 
Lewis: In Maryland—in Maryland still?
 
Lucas: In Maryland still—you know, we was able to get a U-Haul, pick up whatever we could… Took it to U-Haul storage—first storage unit ever, you know. Well, for me, anyway. [Long pause] So, we went—we picked up as much stuff possible, took it to storage. Then we had to find a hotel.  So now we find a hotel room for Al, Zach, Garrett, a dog—which is Chika. She was a shiatsu, and a cat. And we went through a couple of hotels, until… You know, when people find out you got pets in there and you ain’t supposed to—you got to go. [Laughs]
 
Lucas: [01:08:43] And then after that, what had happened... So after that, what had happened was, we went back to the Poconos. And so my handyman—so my handyman wasn't a part of the crew of the insurance company. He was just my handyman, you know, sealed up the house for me—before we almost fried to a crisp. So, what is his name? His name will come. But anyway, he's like, “Miss Hudson…” He called me by my married name, “Look, there's a house up here. You can squat— and first time squatting. I’m like, “What?!”  
 
Lucas: [01:09:28] So, we drove from Maryland back to the Poconos. So, we’re squatting in this house. Come to find out—the house we was squatting in? Was my deceased husband’s good friend from Con Edison. [Long pause] Yeah. Beautiful little house, it had one bedroom. Yeah, one bedroom, big living—he had an extra room he was building on it... Things didn't work out, unfortunately. He lost his job to Con Edison because he was stealing paper towel. They did a raid at his house, and he got walls and walls of paper towel—child, stacked up in his damn garage. A job, a job… [Laughs] Mmm-Hmmmm.
 
Lucas: [01:10:21] So, I don't know how we came across—because I had a lot of my husband's good friends phone numbers. And I finally told them, I was like, “Benny.” That’s his name. I was like, “Benny, I’m in your house, blah-blah...” And everybody knew the history about Jeffrey. He didn’t have a problem with it. He didn’t. Praise God, he didn’t. Because you know, he could have just called the cops. Just—don't—because he know me, he could have called the cops. But he didn’t.
 
Lucas: [01:10:52] And I told my handyman... So, he said… At the time I still—I still owned the house at the time. I was behind in mortgage and stuff because I wasn't there, or I was running around... So, he got the contract to fix my house. And out of that contract he gave Al and I money. He gave us money out of my contract, even though that was illegal. But he did. At this point, we didn’t really have no money, you know—it was just like two thousand dollars a month that was coming off of me. Al wasn’t working—obviously his mom's money was already spent, you know, so... So, he gave us money, which I appreciated from him. But unfortunately, instead of him fixing the house. They had built—they built the casinos out there. He was a gambler-holic—child! House never got fixed. Nothing got fixed. Thank God he gave me some money and he gambled it all away! I would go to the casino—at two o’clock in the morning, and who I see there? My handyman. I didn't know. Ooooh, I didn't know. I just figured, “Oh hey, how you doing? Da-da-da…”
 
Lucas: [01:12:17] So, God was good. My husband had died from a car accident, and I was entitled to a hundred thousand dollars. So, the hundred thousand dollars finally came and Zach… Before the drama and the craziness, Zach and I already had talked about, “Let's go and move to Florida…” After his father had died, I took him to Disneyworld, him, and Gary—took them to Disneyworld—and his brother—my brother-in-law—him, his wife... Look, I got the money, “Look, we’re all going to Disney World!” You know, so after Disney World and we come back to the Poconos we’re like, “Fuck all this snow and shit! It's nice out there.” I started looking at the schools, the high schools... You know, I was doing my—you know, investigation that I thought. And when the money came, it was April. I won’t forget that.
 
Lucas: [01:13:19] And we drove right the fuck out of the damn Poconos, to Florida—to another hell hole! [Laughs]
 
Lewis: This was with Al also?
 
Lucas: Yes! Yeah, Al was there. So when we were doing squatting? I tried it to describe the house, it had one bedroom, a stove, kitchen, and a big like loft area, and it was a room that the man was working on—like an exterior room before, you know… His problem started from stealing… Al loved the wood burning stove. It wasn’t a—well, I guess it was... It was a heater, but you would have to burn wood. And, you know our money was funny. And so my handyman told Al, “Look. Just cut up some pallets—because they was doing work, so they had pallets—and throw it in the woodstove. So, Al would sit there and just burn wood and watch TV—keep the house warm. Keep the house warm, just burning wood. I guess, you know—fire is fascinating, and calming—you know, and yeah. And yeah, so like April we had finally left up out of there.
 
Lucas: [01:14:42] Because actually we was in that apart—or that house, when Obama got into office. Yeah. Was it? Yeah, it was Obama—yeah, got into office. Yeah. And he stayed, what? Eight years? Yeah?
 
Lewis: Yep.
 
Lucas: So yeah. Obama had just got into office. And I remember having a phone call with my sister-in-law. She cried. I cried... At that point in my life, I really didn't realize the significance of it. Blackman President… I had so much other stuff going. We’re not living where we're supposed to… We’re sleeping on air mattresses in somebody’s house. I mean, I really couldn't concentrate and give Obama his props.
 
Lucas: [01:15:35] But when we moved—April... So what happened was the same realtor company that I had rented a villa, when we went to Florida was called All Stars Estates, something like that. So I asked them—I called them, and I asked them, “Look, I'm trying to relocate. I enjoyed staying at one of your properties, blah-blah-blah.” So, without even seeing it—it wasn't even no virtual... He said, “Come on down, blah-blah...” I think I took care of it all over the phone. Packed up, got the directions. Met them to get to the keys… They didn’t come with us to the Estates—you know, to the property.
 
Lucas: [01:16:22] And… So, Al and I, we just had this conversation. So, soon as I drive through the gates of this establishment—our new lives... Al turns around and tells Zach, “Oh, you know your mother's pregnant.” I’m like, “What?!” I didn't even know I was pregnant. I just bought a eighty-dollar bathing suit! Nobody’s pregnant. I look back like, “What the hell are you doing?” I mean like, you know… “We haven't even seen the place yet and now you're telling my son that I'm pregnant?” And yeah, I was. They said, I conceived that child—Valentine's Day in the Poconos! Child… [Laughs] I was pregnant. So, you know—that was just another rock thrown at the window. I was like, “Oh my God.” But you know—he's a sweetie, he's thirteen. It was a beautiful pregnancy. I was forty-two! Forty-two and pregnant.  
 
Lucas: [01:17:29] So you know, I'm going to doctors. I'm paying for every everything—I'm paying cash. I’m paying cash to have this baby. Cash. Paying cash to have this baby. And then Florida’s going to tell me, “Well, you know, we don't do V vac here—vaginal delivery. We don't do that here. We do C-section.” And I’m like, “Well, I'm not a diabetic. My blood pressure’s good. My health is good.” I said, “Well… C-section? Well, what happens if the child comes early?” They said, “Oh no! We just make sure—with the doctors, make sure they get the baby before it's too due.” What?! So now—yeah, man. So I'm like, “Okay.” So all the way up to my eight months—like I said, I'm paying cash, doing to the doctor, sonogram, everything… Paying cash. At eight months pregnant, I  stopped going to the doctor. You’re not going to take my baby.
 
Lucas: [01:18:39] But everything—by time everything was said and done, I had him naturally. But they still owed me fifteen hundred dollars, because I over paid. [Laughs] Oh yeah girl. I overpaid them. My mom called me. She’s like, “The hospital’s trying to contact you.” How is the hospital going to call my mom, but you ain’t called me to tell me I got fifteen hundred dollars waiting for me. Yeah. And that was the—some more of the beginning of homelessness. So what—you know, at that point of course, we wasn't homeless, blah-blah-blah...
 
Lucas: [01:19:33] But what happened was, just like I had mentioned earlier—Garrett. Garrett, with his autism? He's a runner, you know. They got some that hide… He was a runner, so if he can get out, he’d get out. And Alister was eight months. So eight months in—and after the baby's born, eight months... [Sighs] The gated community management he was a prick too. And everybody knew it. Everybody that worked for him. Look, I don't care. Look, he don’t live in my house. But he was a real prick.  
 
Lucas: [01:20:11] So, security would come through in their golf carts and let all the kids get on the cart. And I always say, “No Garrett,.” He said, “No!” The security, “No it's okay! All the kids ya-ya-ya…” So, it’s now—it’s dead of summer, fourth of July coming up, actually July second coming around. And obviously the management company got a whiff of people telling tourists, like the snowbirds that come down, telling them…. So we paying—I’ll just round it up, two thousand a month. But it was three bedrooms—you know, laundry and all of that, you know… Light and gas, everything was included—you know, pool, everything, everything’s included so… But they was charging the tourists two thousand a week! So, when that leaked out, all of a sudden, everybody in the community—kids couldn’t play outside no more—couldn’t pay outside. Nobody’s kids could play outside. I mean, it was so bad Lynn, one lady… She had her sister's kids in ‘07. She had to send them to New York so they can enjoy their summer.
 
Lucas: [01:21:39] So, getting back—golf cart, Garrett's autism... He runs out the house. Because he—this is what I feel in my heart. He ran out the house because I told him, I said, “Garrett. You can't play outside.” You know, I tried—we’d take him to go play miniature golf. I mean, we kept him active, you know—take him to go feed the alligators… You know, they had the little alligator pond—you know, you buy some sausage, you know—the wieners...  You know, you’d drive him down—we kept—you know Al and I; we enjoy doing things. You know—with our kids, you know—museums… Stuff! We kept him busy. But that particular day, I wanted to clean before I left because it was fourth of July coming around—July second.
 
Lucas: [01:22:29] That particular day, we’re getting ready to go to a resort. I'm like, “You know what? We got the money, let’s go to a resort for fourth of July.” So, on July 2nd. You know, I'm upstairs cleaning and stuff. Zach said he's standing outside the door smoking a cigarette, and Garrett came darting past him—came out the house darting past him, ran straight for the golf carts. And I'm upstairs doing laundry. So, Zach said he ran behind him and you know—Zach, Zach’s very tall and he was always been so, you know... So you know he could have caught up with—what, Garrett was like five or seven, something like that. I think he was about five. So he caught up with him, brought him back.
 
Lucas: [01:23:21] And now the prick manager, here he come, knocking on the door. Tap, tap, tap—right? I’m like, “Yeah, what do you want?” Zach already told me what Garrett had done. Got in the  golf cart, blah-blah-blah. [Imitating the manager] “I'm not going to be able to tolerate this behavior.” You know what I told him? I said, “You know what? You're not going to have to tolerate it anymore because I'm moving.” [Long pause] When I told him I was moving. This “m-f” called the police. I had Crime Scene Unit, CSI to come to my house. Talking about, “Oh. He seen me slap Garrett.” Look, Garrett is your complexion. He’s Al’s complexion but he’s in between you and Al, okay. If I had slapped him, it would have been a hand print, okay? Lynn, that turned into such a fucking nightmare, with him calling the cops on me. [Long pause] So, the cops come… all my neighbors came out saying, “Charmel, Charmel what's going on?” I was like, “I really don’t freaking know.” I got Crime Scene Unit coming though my house...
 
Lucas [01:24:58] They’re talking about, “Oh they found—they found a black substance in the sink. It was hair from Al shaving… Anything and everything—and we were cleaning. We was in the middle of cleaning the house because I don't like to leave my house dirty when I travel! Nobody want to come back to a dirty house! So I'm cleaning, so of course we got dirty clothes in the middle of the floor. The laundry’s upstairs. You know, Garrett used to like popcorn with chocolate in it because Al would make popcorn with raisinettes. So, Garrett—he’s young. He's smearing his hand up and down the walls. They said it was shit! [Long pause, sighs] I'm going to leave out some of the other little gory stuff, but that was the first night I have ever been arrested in my life. They arrested  me for “child endangerment without great harm”. They wanted to know where my kids were at. They was with Al. But where he was at—the young man, he was on an ankle bracelet monitor. We didn't want to bring heat to his house, you know.
 
Lucas [01:26:11] We just wanted to say, “Look, the kids are fine. You know, whatever you want to do…” No. They took my kids. They took little Alister, he was eight months old. We—Alister, look babies cry, but Alister had never a reason to cry. It was a happy baby. I mean, out of all my kids—my last… The woman grabbed him like a loaf of bread and stuffed him under her arm… A loaf of bread! The boy crying! Garrett with his autism with the excitement, you know—he likes excitement. I mean, I know that's about his autism, you know. It was just so exciting to him. Alister’s crying. I'm going to jail. Zach and his friend walking by like they don't even know me. [Laughs] They walking by like, “Yeah! Moms is getting locked up!” [Laughs] Child…
 
Lucas: [01:27:11] I go to Florida’s jail. You know, I ain’t never been in jail. Like, little Jeffrey was the first time I even visited anybody in jail—never been in jail. That shit brought my period on. [Long pause] I said, “Am I going to get strip searched?” He said, “If you want to.” [Long pause] God was good though, because I had bail money. I waited you know, thank God Zach had found my Visa card, you know—my bank card. Thank God Zach had found it. That was an experience locked up—first time, ah! But God was always on my side. He sent me with a cellmate. She's the same sign as me. I'm a Gemini. She's a Gemini, she was Spanish. She told me, you know—this and that. What to do, what not to do.
 
Lucas [01:28:07] I couldn't eat. She’s like, “Charmel, stop giving your food away.” I—I can’t eat this shit. Dirty cup… I mean… A bunch of freaks—want to call my lawyer. Of course, we got a thunderstorm now, all power's going out. Oh… So, I’m in there crying. I’m in there crying, of course I’m crying. I just want to go—I want my babies, you know. [Long pause] Came across another inmate, she was in there because her son was autistic also and she couldn't find him. She couldn't find him. So she's a white. Yeah. she's white. So, she can’t find her son. So of course, they bring out the helicopters. They bring out the helicopters for her, you know—looking for her son.  Her son was under the bed! With his autism. They locked her up because, “You wasted too much manpower!” [Long pause] You're going to help me write this book too, Lynn. [Laughs] The next one…
 
Lewis: Yep. Lord.
 
Lucas: [01:29:21] They locked her up for that! They—she wasted their manpower while her autistic son was just hiding under the bed. The women were very helpful to me, held me down. But the main thing they told me though? Charmel, you’re going to get out of here. But we pray that they don't let you out after midnight.
 
Lewis: Why? What's that about?
 
Lucas: When they let the women out after midnight—this is Florida! So nothing happens. Nothing happens to them… They wind up dead! They kept saying, “You’re going to get out, we pray you don’t get out after midnight.” And of course they let me out after midnight! And they said if I wasn't off the property within a, maybe an hour—I’d be locked back up for trespassing—because I can't get home! But God is good. Somehow, some way Zach came and picked me up. After he done tore up my car. Now I got a yellow—oh, I guess one of them bumper things from the parking? I got a yellow streak on my car, but it’s fine. He was shaking. He came with a friend. He was shaking. His friend was shaking. I was shaking. Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lucas: [01:31:05] And so, what happened after that… I get out of jail. Now, I got to go find where my kids are at. Oh! Foster care… This, that. They done braided my babies hair with rubber bands, like he a little girl. You know, he got cute, curly hair. No, what the fuck? Take the rubber bands… Child, please. So, you know—we figure, “Okay, we can do this.” Al is all, “We can do this.” You know, whatever you all need from us, we’re going to do. Piss tests, interviews, this, that… Blah-blah-blah and blah. Going to court—the courts down there are so packed with child services cases, for no reason—the majority. Now I know people do need child services. The judge swore everybody in at one time because it was too packed. It wasn't nothing but—it was only standing room left. [Long pause] So you know, we’re still saying, “We're going to fight this, we're going to break this out, you know, so… One judge, for all the Osceola county children—one judge… Half the time, he looked like he was fucking asleep! But okay.
 
Lucas: [01:32:28] So, the kids—we have our visits, we can have a designated area. So, at this point, we’re not in a gated community no more. We moved, found another house. But meanwhile, my kids were taken, and Garrett was the survivor benefits for my deceased husband. I lost those and I couldn't pay the rent at the house. But even prior to that—paid the rent, nice corner property, big, big yard. And we’re like, “Oh, we’re going to do this. We’re going to get the kids back…” Beautiful park across the street—literally across the street, community center… Beautiful people there. I told them, you know—everything I have been through, I'm having my visits here at the park, blah-blah-blah.
 
Lucas: [01:33:22] And so I was entitled to some more settlement money from my deceased husband, and I got it, and I got a lawyer. That pissed the courts off. So they, “Where’d you get this money from? Where’d you get money to get a regular lawyer?” So I lied. I lied on the stand. I said, “I hit the lotto.” Right? “Because you know, you had a court appointed lawyer, you know.” Oh child please. He had a lawyer, and I had a lawyer. Why we didn’t have one lawyer? So when I brought my lawyer up in there, not theirs, but my lawyer—you know what the judge said? Like my mom—at the time, I didn't know she was really money hungry... Very money hungry, not just on my kids on a lot of others—but you know, I didn’t know none of that. I ain’t supposed to…
 
Lucas: [01:34:22] They terminated our parental rights without no written fucking given reason. Terminated our parental rights. Because we went and got a real lawyer? We did everything we were supposed to. So, after that—like I said, the money went because I was—we was living off of my survivor benefits and Garrett was getting survivor benefits, so we was getting like close to four thousand a month, in the household. And even when they took the kids and came back and asked questions and stuff, they were really shocked! “That's how much money you—he gets a month?”
Yeah, his father fucking worked! But see, I didn't know what I know now. No. Special needs—the state gets more money, you know. But we didn't know. You know, we’re still just hurting because we don't have our kids.
 
Lucas: [01:35:35] So, the kids started coming to us, not the kids—the baby, little Alister. [Pause] Bruises! Now we’re taking pictures of bruises. Bruises. We asked Garrett, “What happened? He said, “Oh, the lady bumped his head. Said she had him on his hip and she went in the closet and bumped his head.” Big ass knot! I took a picture, now all the courts, everybody looking… [Makes sounds…] And that's before they took the parental rights, you know… Yeah, everybody looking…  So,  Al said, “If you're not going to give us our kids back, send them to her mother.”
 
Lucas: [01:36:17] And prior to that, we had two other choices. My deceased husband’s auntie. Al’s sister, which is a registered nurse, and she's more than a registered, she’s like head nurse at the hospital. They never contacted her. So, send them to my mom. So okay. Well unfortunately, my mom, she got a little greedy because, you know—the money that Garrett was bringing into her household. Both of the kids you know, bringing into the household. Oh, she was in agreement of them terminating my parental rights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lucas: [01:37:03] So, with no cash you know, coming through now we’re squatting in this lady's house—her whole family living on the fucking block. We sneaking in, sneaking in at night. And then, I wind up getting some more money from my deceased husband. And we was able to move, you know. And then—so we stood street homeless in Florida for, what—I would say three months, but it probably was about a month, a month, and a half. Florida is a rough place to be street homeless now. Ain’t no shelters. You’re sleeping where you can—mosquitoes are tearing you up. I had a bench, Al had a bench and Zach had a bench, by the water. What's waking you up? A giant alligator splashing in the water. You know it wasn’t a damn whale. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [01:38:04] How old was Zach then? 
 
Lucas: Ooh! Zach. He was in his twenties and the same height. Now you know, he needed his own bench. Yeah. [Laughs] Look Lynn, I’m sleeping on dog with my Chicka—with our Chicka… I’m sleeping on the bench with my dog, our Shiatzu. Like I said, Al—he’s sleeping in the middle bench and Zach's on the other one. So it’s one two three. Oh, and I forgot to tell you. The sprinkler system comes on. So, if you're not prepared, you're going to be homeless and wet. [Laughs] Without the rain.
 
Lewis [01:38:52] So homeless in Florida, and wet—with alligators. 
 
Lucas: Oh, yeah. The stories that’s out there... Hmmm. [Pauses] Mmmmmm. We came across a lot of good people, you know. God was really good to us. Not being prepared! I mean, who prepares  yourself for it, you know? God sent us real good angels around. But Florida… Good example—her name was Lisa. So, she ran the Greyhound little Bus thing there and she would always look out for all the homeless people—tell you to, “Take all the free beer and cigarettes you wanted, ba-ba-ba...”  She hated her boss. [Laughs] So.
 
Lucas: [01:39:44] You know, that was survival skills. You know, we went to the soup kitchen you know, we—of course, you know—they do a lot of church. You got to pray before you can get a meal, you know how that goes. [Laughs] But it’s fine. But you know, it was just—hey, you know, look, it's a good thing. Somebody sings some kumbaya. I was thinking the other day, they sang, “We are family, I got all my sisters with me—and my brothers too.” [Laughs] So, yeah, that was an experience—you know, just breaking bread with a lot of people, just like Holy Apostle. You know, it's just Florida. You know, people came out to cook. You know, they had to sneak that…
 
Lucas: [01:40:36] So next what had happened was… We're not working. So, the money from my husband, it's not being regenerated. But we have so, if that money had come through—you know, got out of that situation... I blessed a couple of homeless people. I came across K.O. and… Her name will come to me. It was. K.O. and her, a gentleman named Gus and his friend and Zach. So, I had got four hotel rooms for like a week. I knew I couldn't take care of them, but I just figured—give them some rest. Took them to—I don't know, can’t say Red Lobster... It was one of those restaurants down here and it was like about the same amount of people I told you. It was all of us. So you know, we broke bread. We thanked God, you know. I put money in their pockets. They ain't had no money, you know… Whatever happened they had to deal with whatever... And, you know, until it was unable and... Hmmmm. I couldn't pay. I couldn't pay the man—now the first lady. I couldn't pay her because I lost everything. But then you know, I gained some money back, blah-blah-blah.
 
Lucas: [01:42:00] Then we had moved to Orlando. Mmmm. Come to find out, one of the gentlemen—Gus. So, his friend—his brother and him, obviously—you know women do have to be mindful what you talk about and how you talk about it. Everybody knew I was waiting on that money. It's the grace of God that I’m even talking to you. Because they might have just killed me. It was like thirty thousand dollars! But you know—Shhhh! They knew I was waiting on that. Gus said, “Oh, we got this apartment for you. Blah-blah-blah... You know, we know the landlord… Blah-blah-blah...” Come to find out Gus had a key to my… They was robbing us left and right while we went to sleep. And on top of that, we had bought a puppy pit bull, from him—him and his brother. So we got the dog now, so we’re like, “Wouldn’t she bark?” No! Why would she bark? He raised her. I wish she barked.
 
Lucas: [01:43:03] Al and I... So, we was… I ain’t going to say—we were sloppy with money because we had an argument or whatever. Our frustration—for us is still to this day about what happened to our kids. And it was just me and him to take it out on each other. Cursing, screaming—you know, “I hate you.” Get mean, you know… We're taking our anger about what happened to our kids on each other. [Pause] And he broke the TV. He broke the TV. We knew it was broke, but I lifted it back up because—you know, “We'll deal with this tomorrow. We'll get us another one.” I go to the bathroom—the TV’s gone! So, now we’re putting two and two together. There's a lot of shit, missing—been missing out of here! Them Alan Jordan sneakers, one of them vintage ones. Stuff like that. Gus was coming in there ripping us off! I would have loved to see whoever bought that broken TV off of him and when they plugged in… [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lucas: [01:44:24] So you know, we survived. Orlando. Ugh… Junkyard dogs, hot and dusty. Ugh… You know, look Orlando… Look Florida is Florida, nothing but sand… Walking to the Post Office, waiting for this last check. Borrowed money from a good friend of mine. Her husband had passed a month before mines. And you know, she's here in New York, so I asked her—I said, “Look Teresa, I got—I have to leave.” Because who we was renting from, he was a drug dealer. So you ain’t going to fuck with him, so… We got to go. So, she helped me out. But, the time we was down there, they had the All-Star Game, and I got a signed basketball from Paul Pierce, right? And that basketball—Paul Pierce’s basketball helped us bring all our luggage—we had a duffel bag. Al lost his suitcase… I told him, I said, “That looks like your suitcase on… ” He said, “Ain’t mine!” I said, “Oh, okay.” It was his. [Laughs] So we had duffel bag and my backpack, and that Paul Pierce ball gave us the leverage… Not no money. And I gave it to the lady. I said, “Baby girl, we got to go to New York Europe, and we cannot miss this bus. This is all I have—give it to you. And she took it. And we’re here [laughs] after I don't know how many hours. And then
 
Lewis: On the bus? Sorry. On the bus?
 
Lucas: Yeah. I don't know how many hours it took.
 
Lewis: It’s a long bus ride.
 
Lucas: Yeah it is, obviously. And so what happened was…
 
Lucas: [01:46:25] So now we in New York. One of my daughter's friend's mom's—I don't know how I got caught up with her with it, but she let us keep our stuff there. But before that, we were sleeping at Port Authority! With our bags. So, we was told when we got here, “Long as you got your ticket, the cops can’t fuck with you.” So, I mean we stayed there—I don't know... Maybe a week? I don't even think it was that long. But it was long enough! We would all take turns to go to 7-Eleven [laughs] and get some Four Lokos, And you know, we’d take turns, “You go to the store, I’ll watch the stuff, I’ll go to the store, you watch the stuff.” I mean, it was—it was crazy until finally my daughter's friend's mom said, you know—we can drop our stuff at her house until we get settled, you know?

Lucas: [01:47:28] And, my old friends from Millbrook, the South Bronx, hmmmm—really looked out for us. They really did. They didn't know Al, but they knew Zach and I and they knew we’re good people and they looked out for us.
 
Lewis: Did you all stay with them?
 
Lucas: Yeah, in horrible conditions—like it was the projects, the child had two pit bulls and it was a house full of flies, I mean child! And the roaches… Ugh! I love her to death. [Laughs] I mean shit! We slept on the couch together on top of each other. It was like ehhhhhhhh! [Laughs] I love her to death, Belinda. See Belinda used to live up underneath me before we left the projects, and Zach—good friends with her son, Claude. So, in the projects they would go in the bathroom and had the walkie talkies. That was their cell, “I'm on the phone. I'm on the…” You know, they on their walkie talkies talking… But, who knows? But she—she let us stay with her, off and on. And of course, you know—so by that time, you know, I was getting food stamps and stuff so, of course—you know, I ain’t no slouch. I’d bring food into her household—you know, clean, cook, whatever.
 
Lucas: [01:48:55] Actually after we started… We got into the shelter system; I took her down to meatloaf. You ever been to meatloaf?
 
Lewis: Meatloaf?
 
Lucas: Yeah, meatloaf. They only serve meatloaf on Saturday, and that's on Second Street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah! It’s meatloaf—meatloaf’s been around for a minute. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Are they part of the Catholic Worker? It’s second street and what?
 
Lucas: Hmmmm. Second Street, Avenue A. Yeah, meatloaf. So I—you know, I took her down and she was so happy. I mean, look—she got an apartment, but she was very excited going to meatloaf! [Laughs]. I was like… So, the place is not dirty!  
 
Lewis: [01:49:44] So this was when? Like what year more or less, do you think?
 
Lucas: Well… Hmmm. [Long pause] Oh! [Pause] 2012! That's when Hurricane Sandy hit!
 
Lewis: How did Hurricane Sandy affect you guys?
 
Lucas: Remember, we was here in the summer… Not to cut you off but I got to tell you while I remember. We was here in the summer and before we got into the system, Al was couch surfing. I was at my aunt's house. She has a house in Queens and then Hurricane Sandy. Mm-Hmmmm. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And how were you all affected by Hurricane Sandy? What happened?
 
Lucas: Well. We were staying with some of Al’s people in Coney Island. But we still, you know—we couch surfed, you know. But that was our main spot. And what happened was Al wasn't there at—in Coney Island, he was at his cousin's in Brooklyn, and I was in Queens—Jamaica, Queens, when Hurricane Sandy hit. And nobody could really get around, you know. Nobody could get around. So, my auntie—she told me to tell Al, “Go to York College. Go to York College.” They turned it into an evacuation center. And York College wasn't far from me—you know, where her house is at in Jamaica.
 
Lucas: [01:51:31] And Hurricane Sandy… Wow. It just—I don't know. It was just like… Oh my God, it was just so many people. And yes, it was the apples and oranges mixed together. But everybody was just so traumatized! Your listening to people stories, they didn’t know where their husbands were at… Swimming with sharks for hours… So of course, Zach is homeless too. But Zach was staying at my aunties in Jamaica at this time. Because unfortunately, Zach wasn't here—he wasn’t here a good month, and he went to a rap battle concert with the same young man they he played on—you know, on the phone in the bathroom. Some weirdo just went in and started slicing people! So, Al and I wasn't there in the South Bronx when it happened, my daughter calls me up, says, “Ma, what happened to Zach? I heard he got twenty-five stitches in his face!” Some weirdo just started slicing people left and right. And I asked… So I told you, the young lady, she had the two pit bulls—summertime, she’s got flies, she’s got roaches… My son can't stay here with, you know... I didn't tell her that, but I called—I called my family. I said, “Look, he can’t stay there. You know, it’s too much chance of an infection.” And he went to Queens.
 
Lucas: [01:53:15] So, Hurricane Sandy... He was already in Queens. I'm now in Queens, you know, staying at my aunt's. You know, like I said—we couch surfing around, but Zach—that was his permanent residence. And, they had all these cots you know, like York College… And Al and I, being the people we are—you know, being helpful to whoever. But it was a rough time. And a lot of people drinking, getting fucked up… I don’t like, like everybody’s fucked up… Everybody’s like “Ahhhhh…” You know, and then here go Obama again. [Laughs] He just made it again in office. Everybody was trying to get back to Rockaway to vote and all of this stuff. Oh God!
 
Lucas: [01:54:03] And so, Zach—he would come and stay at York College once in a while with us. It’s cots! You know, that’s my son… I mean, nobody really questioned it. But one day my son came in there—one night. And I was leading church in there! It wasn’t even preaching, it was just singing, dude was humming… He was like, “Oh my God, that's my mom?!” [Laughs] I was like... It was a hell of an experience! Then you know, we hooked up with some dude, because after York College there moved everybody across the street to the auditorium—in the snowstorm, at best. So we now—Al and I, we’re helping this older lady—we call her mom. We helped her and her daughter and their newborn grandbaby across the street, with their stuff…  
 
Lucas: [01:55:01] And from there, they bused everybody to the women's shelter on Franklin. They made the women go upstairs. They was turning—you know, the first floor of Franklin Armory, they was turning that into the evacuation center. And they made the shelter women move upstairs. I don’t know how long we was there. It was long enough. They had what? Maybe three stalls for the men—for one hundred fifty men, plus boys, little boys. Ah…..
 
Lucas: [01:55:43] There was people defecating on their selves… That couldn't, you know—they obviously always needed help, but there was no help. So, you had feces, you had urine… No Depends… All that stuff. You got babies… On cots—babies on cots, falling on the floor! Of course, a child’s going to fall on the floor. It was like three incidents and finally I said… I don’t even know, it had to come from God. Because I didn't even think about it. I've never even dealt with that with my own kids. I said, “Y’all ain’t got no emergency cribs around here?!” I mean, I don't even know where that came from. I don't know nothing about an emergency. But it just… I went up there—so of course, emergency cribs came in.
 
Lucas: [01:56:33] A gentleman named Errol Riley. He used to wear this vest, a yellow vest like he’s important, like construction—very important. He was nobody. But he was a leader. Al and I looked at him. He looked at us—and we started our own shit! We had started having meetings, and meeting with reporters, and you know... The state came to check because everybody started—people started reporting, “Look, ain’t no hot water. The food is raw and cold—all this shit. But of course, when the state came—hot water, everything is working. People was eating across from the animals, because people had their pets there. The women upstairs, of course there’s definitely mental health in all shelters. Woman upstairs tried to steal—not once—twice this young lady's daughter. I mean, it went—it was very messy and sloppy.
 
Lucas: [01:57:47] So what had happened after all of that—the old lady, that I told you—Al and I, we helped… I came from the store, and she said, “Charmel, you going to get one of them hotels?”  And I was like—we’re at Franklin. I said, “Hotel?” She said, “Yeah, you want to get one of them hotels?” I'm saying, “Ah, yeah…” I said, “What?” She said, “Go up there.” And I went and the lady, she looked at me—she looked at me and she said, “How many of—is you.” I said, “Just the two of us.” “If I said another number of people…  She said, “Grab you things.” And they took us to the Hilton Hotel on 35th Street, right there off of 6th Avenue. We were welcomed with welcome arms. Yeah.
 
Lucas: [01:58:44] But during all that time there in the hotel, that's how I became the hotel liaison—Al and I. We're going from hotel to hotel telling them, “This is what's being offered…” We had to have protests in front of Red Cross because Red Cross was supposed to give everybody a four hundred dollar gift card every month, one hundred dollars a week for each individual. It wasn't doing that. They was supposed to give everybody seven day MetroCards. They wasn't doing that. But I didn't know that. I'm hearing this by, you know—chitchat. So, we finally do a protest in front of Red Cross. “Red Cross Double Cross! Red Cross Double Cross!” [Laughs] And Red Cross... And so we had Pix11 news there and they was like, “Yo, we need to bring them inside, they are making too much noise.” And next thing you know, everybody started getting what they was entitled to.
 
Lewis: Were you the one that made up the chant? Red Cross Double Cross?
 
Lucas: Oh, no, not—no. There was some other dude. His name was Larry. Yeah. Larry reminds me or something like a Scott. Yeah. Yeah. Larry. Mm-Hmmmm. Red Cross Double Cross! [Laughs] I was like, “I ain't never been on a protest!” Yeah. Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: [02:00:08] That was your first protest?
 
Lucas: Yes, that was my first protest. But they wasn’t doing right… [Crosstalk, unclear] Go ahead. No, go ahead.
 
Lewis: You finish up and then I got a question.
 
Lucas: No, it was our first protest, but it wasn't too long because Red Cross didn't want the bad publicity on Pix11 news. And that woman, she still works there—on the news. She… Tamarin? No… She’s a white lady. She usually—used to wear her hair in a big flip in the back, but she works  the nightshift. Mm-hmmmm. I can’t remember her name offhand, but…
 
Lucas [02:00:53] How did y’all get from the Hilton to the Washington Hotel?
 
Lucas: So, what it had happened… Went from the Hilton... So, I guess when the city got more involved? They started moving people from hotel to hotel. So, a last—right before our last hotel they moved us down there by Carnegie Hall. Carnegie Hall—we was at that, Park Central? Not Parkview. I know where Parkview and 110th… No, it’s Park Central, very—very fancy hotel. Very nice. But the more and more the city got involved—and our case managers was BRC, and I actually had personal word with the... Hurricane Sandy at—who I know you remember her—and I don't remember her name but, you know, she was under Bloomberg. I met her a few times through Picture the Homeless.
 
Lucas: [02:02:09] And so since me—we being liaison, we’re talking and Parkview—no excuse me, Park Central, Park Central Hotel... This—I guess, you know the hurricane is done. We got to get back to normalcy. And they came around, telling people that they had to leave. Right. I mean, Al and I already know. We already talked to the Mayor’s office, and we got two more weeks. Ain’t nobody going nowhere. Right. But the people that wasn’t involved, or knew what we were doing? They packed up and fucking left! So, we have protested so much. We understand we can't stay in this fancy hotel, you’re going to put us someplace else. And they put us in Bay Ridge out there by the Gowanus. Yeah. They put it out there by the Gowanus. For those that said, “No, we’re not going into no shelter or whatever!” That ain't even offer shelter. I didn’t even hear the word shelter, at that point. But they put us out there by the Gowanus, after—you know, the expensive hotel blah-blah-blah…
 
Lucas: [02:03:27] Until—couldn't stay there no more because obviously the city withheld, or like Al would say FEMA funding ran out and they literally put us out with the police. I had to go get a storage unit. Al, you know, he doesn't do good under stress. So, thank God for Zach. Zach and I, we’re running back and forth in a cab…  Putting our stuff, you know, in a storage unit... Real, you know—and still lost all his family pictures, Al’s unfortunately, “Well look, you need to help out, man. Look, we're doing the best we can.” And from there, that's how we went into the shelter! [Long pause] Mm-Hmmmmm.
 
Lewis [02:04:15] So the hotels were all associated with being Hurricane Sandy
 
Lucas: Yes.
 
Lewis: survivors.
 
Lucas: Yes.
 
Lewis: And then, as Al said, the FEMA money ran out and then you all had to go in to the regular homeless shelter system?
 
Lucas: Mm-hmm.
 
Lewis: And so what was that like?
 
Lucas: Hmmm! Well, what was that like? Huh. Well, I'll say this, and I'll go into how that was like. We was very fortunate Lynn, that we was in the hotel for a year. For a year. It was so many Hurricane Sandy survivors didn't even have that opportunity—threw them straight into the shelter. We had a year to prepare ourselves for the next step in life. And how was that? It was very horrible! Yeah. Cheese grater seats. You know, I don't know if that's in my archives, but I took pictures back then—cheese grater seats, they told you, “You couldn't stretch out.” They’d say, “You got to keep your shoes on. You can't lay your legs across the thing.” I mean, it was—it was… Mmm!
 
Lucas: [02:05:20] And we stayed there what—it was two, three days? You get an hour or two break, your little cigarette break here and… [unclear] You know.
 
Lewis: That was in Bellevue?
 
Lucas: At Bellevue—in Bellevue… Right there at 30th Street, Bellevue.
 
Lewis And you all went to Bellevue as like, a couple without children?
 
Lucas: Yes.
 
Lucas: Because Zach, he had a place, you know, with my aunt in Jamaica, Queens.
 
Lewis: And then, so you're at Bellevue for a couple of days and then what happened?
 
Lucas: Ahhhh… Where did they send us… Oh! They took us to 1395 Dean Street. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm… So, of course—tired of being in this room or whatever, of course we went… You know, and of course it seemed like they just always want to move people at night. Why the fuck you want to move people at night?! But you know, that's what they do. And so—you know, hey. It was one of the worst shelters ever. We had nobody to complain to because we didn't know nothing about our rights. And it was one of the worst. The woman would curse you out. She would, “Look. I'm not a racist on gender, or anything. I like you. You like me. If you don't like me, I ain't got to like you—but I don't have to hate you.
 
Lucas [02:06:44] This… This lesbian that was running it, having sexual affairs downstairs with her staff, cursed Al like out like a dog, she wanted to antagonize Al. She wanted to antagonize—she antagonized everybody! She was the bitch of bitches. I never came across—I never came across somebody I would wish harm to. That was my first experience. But you know what gave me satisfaction, out of that experience? It was just more experiences, but that one right there? When that lady cursed everybody out, and screamed and hollered and tyranted… We couldn't even talk to our neighbors because she had us on TV at home. And she would call staff downstairs to tell them, “Look, I see them talking in the hallway. Tell them not to!” And now you got [unclear] speaking, “Miss Watson ain’t seeing you...” Her name was Yvette. I remember the first, Yvette. The last one will come… “Miss Yvette” what’s-her-name, “She seen y’all in the hallway. Get out the hallways…” She didn't want us to fucking gang up on her ass, at this point. [Laughs] I mean really—very disrespectful! Very disrespectful.
 
Lucas: [02:08:20] But what I wanted to say—the satisfaction out of that? And of course, I learned a lot during Picture the Homeless, and this and that… I got an opportunity to ride around—I don't know if you have an opportunity to know—I rode around with the Public Advocates office to go do shelter inspection.
 
Lewis: Nice. How did that happen? How'd you hook up with them?
 
Lucas: More or less, Jenny and them, you know. You know, it was like, “Charmel, go over to here, talk to them, da-da-da...” And you know, I’m telling you what I tell everybody. This is not no lie. This ain't like, “Oh, you know, I hate the shelters… No. The shelters supposed to be here, temporary shelter, blah-blah-blah... And I told him. So I assume I was the candidate to go on shelter inspections. Especially when you start with that—throw people out to Long Island safety, and stuff. No transportation, two—two Metro Cards or whatever you need… And now, when they seen—I said, “I'm not doing that and that's—I done learned it from Picture a Homeless. They chose me to go on a journey. So what happened is…  
 
Lucas: [02:09:34] One of the shelters—the hotels we were at? It was a doctor; I only remember his name because… I don’t even think he was a doctor. He was a weirdo. “Doctor So-and-so… Doctor So-and-so… Doctor…” What was it? Ain’t nobody need no goddam doctor in this hotel, blah-blah-blah… So, when everybody got split up—now Charmel got opportunities to go to these shelters. And honey! I went out to that family shelter, out there in Queens. You know, a good friend of my mine—I can’t say a good friend—you know, acquaintances I came across. They moved them out here and I think I told Jenny. I told Helen. I told somebody. And I said, “I'm not going out to freakin’ Queens.” They left us here in the city. Right here where I'm at now. And, before they moved us here they was moving people, and. I'm not even sure... Like I said, it has to be between Jenny, and I know definitely it was Picture the Homeless. And when I went to that hotel and that doctor seen me, he said, “Y’all can come in!” It was… Shoot—I have her name in my head. I don't have it offhand… It was Jadi—Jadi, Jadi invited us. Yeah Jadi’s friends… Jadi got me onto that gig. Jadi. You know Jadi?
 
Lewis [02:10:58] Mm-Hmm. But let me—let me back up a little bit, because this was Jenny… And all of this was after you were with Picture the Homeless?
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: So can we—we go back a little bit
 
Lucas: Of course.
 
Lewis: to when you went to the Washington Hotel, and you met Picture the Homeless.
 
Lucas: Mm-hmm.
 
Lewis: So how—yeah. So how did you get to the Washington Hotel? And how'd you meet Picture the Homeless?
 
Lucas: Okay. The Washington Hotel—if I'm not mistaken, they was doing illegal log-outs. You know, just logging people out. Yeah. It was illegal log-outs. I think Al and I had did some housesitting for my daughter's friends. So we didn't go back—right back into the system. And then when we went back into the system—the Washington Hotel, which was a very eerie place. Thank God they finally closed it down.
 
Lucas: [02:12:11] And… [Smiles] I just spoke to him last night, Andres. So, Andre's coming with this young lady doing outreach. And Al's habit was—both of us, you know, we get up… I don't even know if we knew about soup kitchens like that, you know—right here. But because when we were in Brooklyn at the horror place, we found out about soup kitchens there. So, I don't know what Al and I always did, but the room was so hot you had to sleep naked with a sheet at your door. So that means both of you all can get freaked out. That’s how hot it was. Yeah. Door open, and a sheet there—just to get some air. A room, not no window, no nothing. And don't forget, we did have a refrigerator—bringing off more heat.
 
Lucas: [02:13:03] And God slowed Al and I up for ten minutes because I think we would we have—we were supposed to been out the room, just for our own personal—ten minutes earlier. But, “Eh, just a… We’ll get to where we...” I don't know where we was going. But that ten minutes introduced me to Andres, and he was there. It was a Thursday—it was the housing meeting—him and one of the interns. And so, I mean—the intern talked to Al, and Andres talked to me, and he gave me, “Would you like to come to a housing meeting tonight?” And I looked at Al, I said—you know, after they walked away—I said, “Yeah! Ain’t no need in us sitting up in this goddamn hot room! Let’s see, and it's right down the block. And I've been there ever damn since! [Laughs] It was right down the block. It was—it was—it’s just the blessings from God. And you know, a lot of people say, “Oh God forgot…” No, God ain’t gonna forget about you. You're just going to have to recognize and realize… It was a blessing from God. Like I said, ten minutes earlier? I would have missed that damn meeting. Ten minutes. Ten minutes make a big fucking difference. I would have missed that meeting.
 
Lewis [02:14:29] So the—the Washington Hotel is on like 124th [Street] and 3rd Avenue...
 
Lucas: No baby, right there on 125th Street and… Is it? It’s not Lex… It’s 3rd…  
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Lucas: Right.
 
Lewis: And the fire stations like across the street.
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: And so you all walked to the office, which was on 126th between Lexington and Park. And what were your first impressions when you went into the Picture the Homeless office—your first time.
 
Lucas: It's nice and cool in here! We was burning up, child! [Laughs] I hate to say—at that point in my life, I don't think I even cared if the meetings was important. AC! With your clothes on! Child, please! I mean—but no, it was welcoming. It was wonderful. And, we realized that, you know—we didn't have to sleep in a hot ass room with no fucking windows while Picture the Homeless was open. And we could be there—just doing us, as far as, you know... Maybe we’re greeting, just on your cellphone… Had the computers, meeting new people that’s been going through this... And the process just went on and on. Marcus Moore, a lot of shenanigans going on in the office… And Marcus said, “You know, if Lynn Lewis…  You got to meet Lynn Lewis—all these shenanigans would not be going on! [Laughs]
 
Lucas: [02:16:18] And that was between Shadow and damn Nikita… Look, you ain’t stupid, you know they had shenanigans! I mean, nothing crazy. He’s like, “I can't wait for you all to meet Lynn Lewis!” [Laughs] I love Marcus. I talk to Marcus every day, every other day. I talk to Marcus so much that Al get on his nerves! He says, “You still on the phone with Marcus!” [Laughs] But I love to talk to him because the shit is just natural.
 
Lewis: Marcus gave two beautiful interviews for this.
 
Lucas: I know he did.
 
Lewis: [02:16:55] Yeah. So tell me, when you say the office was welcoming, what was it about the office that was welcoming? What made you feel welcome?
 
Lucas: Everybody! It was Shadow, Nikita, Sam. You know, it wasn't like in one day… I think we broke some bread together there; I think—after the meeting. The housing meeting! The housing meeting was very informative.
 
Lewis: What kinds of things were you—were you learning in the housing meeting?
 
Lucas: Hmmm. [Pause] Hmmmm. [Pause] First of all why we were there. Not speaking of Picture the Homeless, why we were in our situation. To me, that was very helpful—because at the end of the day—like, “Father God, how did we fail?” I mean, yeah—you know, we smoke cigarettes, and we drink. But what did we do to become homeless, and treated… So, that stood out a lot! It's not our fault. That really stood out. And obviously, you know—Al and I, we agree to disagree, but he felt comfortable enough to that—yeah, it’s not our fault.
 
Lucas: [02:18:27] And mind you, we got all that kid stuff in the back of our brains. We're trying to get back to our kids! We're trying to get back to where we need to be—for my mom, to get my kids back. So, yeah. That—that, yeah—that was very important, right? It's not your fault. And I still share that with people. I share that for people… Don't realize why the hell they’re here. Everybody feels—not everybody… A lot of people. I’ll say seventy-five percent of the people, be like, “Look, I done worked hard, da-da-da… Why am I here? I don’t deserve this.” It can happen to anybody.
 
Lewis: [02:19:13] So, the first time that I met you and Al [laughter] was at a sleep out in front of—of Podolsky fancy ass building.
 
Lucas: Is that the first time you met us? All that damn time?
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Lucas: Your ass was in Venezuela, wasn’t you?  
 
Lewis: Not that summer, but I think I—I saw y’all around in the office, because you used to go to the Homeless Academy meetings?
 
Lucas: Yeah.
 
Lewis: To the trainings? You all were there, but I never really… The first time I ever really talked to you was at that sleepout on 57th Street in front of that really fancy building where Podolsky lived. And Al went with me to get water at the
 
Lucas: Oh yeah.
 
Lewis: Duane Reade. And he told me, he told me how hot your room was, at the Washington Hotel. And then we all slept—spent the night out there all night, and a lot of different things happened. It was a great action, and so was that—what was your memory of that sleep out?
 
Lucas: [02:20:31] Well. My memory of the sleepout is, like I spoke—I spoke. So, I was prepped to speak to the media. Al and I were still new to everybody, you know—knew of us, know of us. Oh, Darlene, Miss Betty, and Angie… And Andre's and Jean, they were the—for the police, you know. I had an interview with Jay Dow about the Podolski’s building—how there's one—a studio apartment is cheaper than you’ll spending six thousand dollars a month, for us to be in a room.
 
Lucas: [02:21:24] But unfortunately, Al and I—we didn't sleep out, because we didn't want to lose our hot room. So we didn't sleep all night. We went back. We went back. So, we didn't sleep all night, but I really enjoyed it! And they need to do more of it. And I really was appreciative that they took Ryan upstairs and Podolsky's daughter’s friends wanted to shame her at school, “Oh, that's so-and-so's dad! I didn't know he was such a creep!” [Laughs] That was the highlight! Take that back to school! Share that!
 
Lewis [02:22:11] So, that was over the summer, right? That was that—I think that sleepout was like in August. And then
 
Lucas: It was warm. Yeah.
 
Lewis: What were you and Al—like what, at the time Ryan, the housing campaign… One of the things they're working on was the cluster site stuff. So, Ryan and his interview—many people in their interviews actually mentioned you and how important you were to their campaigns. You need to know that. [Smiles] And so Ryan talked about how powerful you were doing outreach and knocking on doors in buildings where the Department of Homeless Services were renting substandard apartments as shelters, and that you did a lot of outreach. What was that like for you?
 
Lucas: [02:23:10] [Long pause] Well, at the end of the day Lynn… I always have to thank my higher above. Just talking to people about… Look, they could have just stubbed their toe and been like, “Oh girl, did you check on me? Did you break the nail?” I mean, [laughs] it—to me, it was just normal, normal conversation, “What is going on here? What do you need? How do you need it?” And I think people really, and I don't want to get into the future... That's really what it—all it takes! What do you need? How can I get you there? And I enjoyed it.
 
Lucas: [02:23:50] No, I did not enjoy walking up all them damn steps. [Smiles] No, Ryan and I paired off. And then you got Anna Burnham, she paired off with Al. Ryan and I are huffing and puffing, going up all these goddamn steps and all you can here is her cackling… [Makes cackling noises] And I looked at Ryan and I was like… [Laughs] I said, “That bitch is getting on my damn nerve! You having too much fun with my man… [Laughs] It wasn’t even like that. But I'm just saying. Ryan and I, we—we’re like absorbing all this shit… People are telling us, showing us… Roach—I mean the roach stuff—boom, boom, boom, boom. And Anna and Al like, “He. He. He….” I’m just like, oh my God.
 
Lucas: [02:24:37] But… Just talking to people! Let them be themselves!. I even went after outreach to a particular young lady's house because they moved a sink, and they left the prongs out for the hot and cold water. They left that out and moved the sink. That will be safe. So, there was a leak or there's a, you know—a leakage in her bathroom. And her son—and that was dear to my heart—her son slipped, hit his head on the prong that the super left. Yeah—and now she got an ACS case. So I deliberately went back there, and her mother answered the door, and I gave a lawyers number. I can’t it was like Urban Justice or something—I just gave her a lawyer… I said, “That’s a lawsuit right there.” She should not have an ACS case because the landlord left hazardous materials. No.
 
Lewis: [02:25:39] What were some of the other conditions or issues that you all were working on to end that cluster site program?
 
Lucas: Hmmm. Well, the main issue was, it's rent paying tenants and you got . And you got shelter tenants. At the time, I wasn't thinking like I think now. But you got rent paying tenants with some issues and you got shelter tenants with some issues. But the issue was the landlord was playing the shelter issue people against the paying tenants. That was a big thing. Don't tell me that you're not gonna pick up my trash because we got shelter people here! You got shelter people. Okay. Don't tell me you're not going to fix my door because you got shelter people here for six and five thousand dollars and you know—the ones with the kids, ain’t no telling. They had to make close to ten thousand. It still has to be lose to $10,000 a month! Ten thousand dollars a damn month—so, that was the most impactful. Just because you money hungry. Oh. So that was the last door knocking of the clusters… Because we did over there in that Bronx… Where Lisa Millhouse, oh my God, pray for her. Anyhow, Lisa Milhouse, anybody else that was over there… But the last of it—and James Metz, he came with me on the last couple of those, and that’s when we knocked on the door. A, you know, and that's when we knocked on the door.
 
Lucas: [02:27:19] That's when the mayor said, and… I say, “soft hands...” He was under De Blasio, the white man.
 
Lewis: Steven Banks?
 
Lucas: Yeah, Mr. Soft Hands. [Laughs] His hands are real soft. That means he ain’t do nothing but wipe his ass. Anyhow! [Laughs] So, when they said, “If you get eighty percent of the clients say they will stay here in this apartment will be rehabbed, would you stay?” And they said, “Yes.” So, I got I got eighty percent. And that was a lot of knee—is that what my knees hurt? [Smiles] I don’t know. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [02:28:48] How many—how many people, more or less, did you talk to—to get eighty percent? Eighty percent of how many?
 
Lucas: Half of the Grand Concourse! Child! [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Well you know, it's hard to say no to you Charmel.
 
Lucas: But I, you know, I just broke it down them, “Look, either you going—either going to wait here, or you agree to be here. And the other—not obstacles... The other qualities or—of the information was, “Look, they're going to rehab it—if you willing to stay here, they’re going to rehab it. Is this a suitable size? And most of them—which—people with children, “And is the school good enough for your child?” And a lot of them said they was comfortable. They was comfortable with their area they was comfortable with their stores—you know.
 
Lewis: [02:28:58] Sorry, y’all were doing surveys?
 
Lucas: It was something like a survey, but it was more of a card. You know, like, “I'll leave the card with you. Or maybe pick it up...” You know, we did some things like that. It wasn't really surveys. It was more like—we knew the apartments. We know who to knock on the doors—so whatever information that was being printed out, we wasn't knocking on… A couple slipped through. But we wasn't knocking on people that lived there [unclear]. Now, who did slip through was the super. He said, “I’m the super!” Well, I’ve already talked to the whole damn building! [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [02:29:45] What do you think… What impact did all that work have, Charmel?
 
Lucas: Well, to be honest… I got a picture—once in a while, I like to share it with De Blas—with the mayor “De Blah-Blah” and Lisa Millhouse and Ryan—Ryan with his eyes rolled up. [Laughs]  We did it! We got the eighty percent, blah-blah-blah. But you know, that didn't happen the same day! So, I had just asked somebody, and they said, “That's a good question Charmel.” What happened to those people? Did they turn that into real housing? Or, was that just something Charmel did, and the mayor took credit for it? And we got smiley pictures… But are those people in an apartment? And it was no voucher situation. They was already there. What kind of apartment you turned it into? I really don't know. And I just asked somebody about two weeks ago.
 
Lucas: [02:30:56] What happened with that? Did the people keep their apartments? I don't know nobody even there—Lisa Millhouse. You know Lisa Millhouse?
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Lucas: You know, she's about the last person I knew. And unfortunately, huh—she got a new house, and honey… Just go from one extreme to the next. But you know what? Whatever she's going to do now, I'm not going to put her personals out, but… Whatever she's going through now, it has to be a lot easier to deal with having your health issue, children issue. It has to be better than worrying about DHS issues, on top of your issues.  
 
Lewis [02:31:45] Another person that mentioned you in their interview...
 
Lucas: Why is everyone talking about me?! And I’m just…
 
Lewis: Everybody's talking about you! Everybody's got your name in their mouth. I don't know. I guess you made a big impression [laughter] on a bunch of people. But Nikita, in his interview
 
Lucas: Oh Nikita
 
Lewis: and thank God I was able to interview him.
 
Lucas: Praise him! Ain’t that… Praise God. Mmmm.
 
Lewis: Yeah. It's a wonderful interview. And Nikita mentioned you as somebody who is really good at outreach because you were able to get people to feel comfortable, and talk to you.
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: And I know you did a bunch of different things with Nikita, with the Civil Rights Campaign—tabling at Holy Apostles and giving out information. And you also worked on a survey project that we did with WRAP.
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. I still got some of those too. I still got some blank ones.
 
Lewis [02:32:52] You want to talk a little bit about what that was like and what those surveys were for?
 
Lucas: Well, the outreach part… Al and I appreciated—I—I—I can’t speak for him. But, the outreach part at Holy Apostles was—it was very uplifting to show Al and I that we’re needed. We could handle it. Because everybody’s, “Where’s Nik? Where’s Nik?” “No, Nik ain’t here—it’s us.” [Laughs] But we'll get it back to him. It was just a good feeling because Nik wasn't there, but they knew they could talk to us, and we'll get it back to Nikita. That was very important. That was very important. They were always like, “Where’s Nik?” Even Marcus! “Where’s Marcus?!” “I don’t know… I seen him… Blah-blah-blah… Well maybe Marcus will come rolling through, whatever...”
 
Lucas: [02:33:55] Well, we made some good relationships, just being normal people! I’m not better than you! As far as, “You’re here for a meal?” I’m better than you? It’s just so many people—they wasn't homeless. They just—maybe wanted a meal, a conversation… Infatuation on somebody, you know… You know what I'm saying?
 
Lewis: [02:34:24] What kind of information were you all giving out?
 
Lucas: Well. Number one is Met Council, you know—tenants’ rights. Of course, meetings… You know, Picture the Homeless—with, you know, Picture the Homeless is having a meeting, you know, get you a meal, get you a MetroCard… You know, that was very good. We let people know because, you know—people say, “I can get there...” But you know, if I ain’t want to jump the turnstile… “So look, if you can make it there, you’ll get a MetroCard, we’ll make sure you have something to eat, da-da-da.” You know… People being like, “Yeah I’ll come, ba-ba-ba.”
 
Lucas: [02:35:04] You know, it’s just being a human being at the end of the day Lynn! It just, you know—everybody… So many people, regardless what job you got, you just became so stonewalled.  Even if you can't help that person, you can have some compassion to tell them where to get the help. Or just say, “I don't know, but I'll get back to you.” Hmmm.
 
Lewis [02:35:32] You know Charmel, it's so moving to hear you say that because it is that simple. And at the same time, people are asking all these questions like, “How do you talk to homeless people? How do you do out… You know
 
Lucas: It’s a human goddam being! [Laughs] Like, how do you scratch a kitty-cat’s back? Child please. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [02:35:57] So with the—WRAP surveys, we also went out there, to meet with them. You and Marcus and I. What was that like for you?
 
Lucas: Well, I apologize for being late, but you know God has everybody where he needs them to be. And… Hmmm. I was very overwhelmed. Overwhelmed—Oh... The street homeless...
 
Lewis: In San Francisco?
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmm. Very overwhelmed…  
 
Lewis: What did you see that was overwhelming for you, for people that…
 
Lucas: There were too many people sleeping outside!
 
Lewis: Mmmm.
 
Lucas: It was just too many. And I'm a New Yorker. Yeah, I've been in Florida for a few, but I'm a New Yorker. There's too many goddamn people and… People looking like me and you! They’re just laying down on the ground! It wasn't like, “Oh, she’s drunk and passed out.” Just laying down. “I gotta get some rest.” where. And just like now, he.
 
Lucas: [02:37:10] Buying bottles of water, Marcus and I buying bottles of water, “Would you like a bottle of water a year?” Like, “Yeah.” And you know, it wasn't even concerning. I’m going to buy this woman some water. Is she still going to be there? She can't go nowhere! Child… [Laughs] That was concerning. I experienced a very interesting soup kitchen as Marcus would say. We was playing musical chairs. So you got… Just say we got four rows of five seats and the first go and then the next two rows will go to the first row. We were like, like Marcus said, We were playing musical chairs in here, Charmel.” [Laughs] I was like… And it was, “You're next! Jump for your seat! Next! Next!” It was like musical chairs up in there. And then, you know, and I got some pictures, you know—I'll share one if it pops up... I don't know—I can't get my clouds and blah-blah-blah…
 
Lucas [02:38:19] But… We talked to a few brothers but, Marcus and I—we had this conversation today. He's a male perspective. I'm a woman perspective. I'm a more motherly, naturely... And a man can talk—you know, “Yo, brother… What’s going on?” You know? So, there was some of that. But for me—and so I kept a good phone call relationship with the security guard from the Tenderloin. Mm-Hmmmm. I just lost his stuff. I just lost his number right before the pandemic. And, I got good information from—I got good information from him as far as, you know… At the time, when we were—now everything is so freaking expensive! He said that—he’s the one who told me… He said it ain’t rained in about four or five years, I said, “Oh, that's what Picture the Homeless does, get used to it. No… [Laughs] You know what I’m saying? Yeah.
 
Lewis: [02:39:39] What was it like for you to go to the WRAP office? Because they’re—they’re…
 
Lucas: Oh God… Don’t mention them. I just seen them pictures—smoking all them cigarettes. Is he okay?
 
Lewis: They're all good. They're all great.
 
Lucas: Good.
 
Lewis: But what was that like for you? [Some cross talking]  
 
Lucas: It was beautiful, for me. I don't know if you noticed… If I'm not familiar, and if I don't know what I'm talking about, I like to just sit back and observe. You know, what I’m saying? If I don’t know what I’m talking about, I like to observe. So, I observed a lot more than I engaged, you know. Because I like to learn! And after, you know—y’all tell me what's really going on, I listen. I just don't like to assume, you know. Back in the day, I would assume.
 
Lucas: [02:40:36] Lynn, I hope you don’t mind. I want me a cigarette. And I don’t even smoke cigarettes… I just have rollies. If you don’t mind. Do you mind?
 
Lewis: Oh God. I don’t mind. Thank you for asking, but I don't mind. I appreciate you taking all this time Charmel, because this history is really important.
 
Lucas: [02:40:56] Yeah! Nobody’s going to know nothing about this! We got the new stuff going on. But our youngins, our youngins don't know nothing about it. Nobody know why they running around angry. People hating homeless, “Oh the homeless… The homeless, da-da-da.” Look, there’s more people creating crime… There’s more people creating crime that have homes!
 
Lewis [02:41:26] So, I want to—I want to shift a little bit to somebody else that was telling stories about Charmel—they're all good. And that was Jenny talking about when you all were working—doing research for The Business of Homelessness report and a group of people went to the Independent Budget Office.
 
Lucas: Yes!
 
Lewis: To get information from them. Could you just talk about what that trip was like and what your thoughts were and what you thought you all got out of it?
 
Lucas: Well… I love Jenny to death, and… So, Jenny was more of the analyst of what… So, this is what I tell people when I have some conversations—the language. The language—if you don't know the language, if people think about, “Oh Spanish…” No. If you don't know the language... I knew the numbers; I knew the numbers didn't add up right. I knew how the budgeting, you know—what, “June to July…” That to me—that's very weird. Why would you do June to July, you know?  Should start in January… I don’t know.
 
Lucas: [02:42:48] So, the numbers of where they were spending, how they were spending—was very disturbing. But the language, Jenny was able to—I’m not going to use the word replicate, but break it down. All I got was—for me personally, all I got was a lot of numbers, “We’re going to spend this…” But you already spent that! “And we're going to spend this. We already spent that and but now this is what we're going to spend. We're going to make the budget bigger! At the end of the day though, I'm still in the shelter. Jenny was going home to do her analysis. That, you know...
 
Lucas: [02:43:42] Jenny or—Jenny really opened my mind a lot. I mean, all of Picture the Homeless, everybody. Even down to Sam Miller. I had a big behind argument with Darlene and he wanted us to do an interview together, “Yeah, look… You and Darlene are going to put your differences aside because NBC News is coming.” I hate you, Darlene. “Hello!” [Laughs] And I love Darlene to death.  
 
Lewis: [02:44:16] You—you're bringing up the media. You did a lot of media interviews.
 
Lucas: Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: What was that like for you?
 
Lucas: Nerve racking. I never been out of…. Like I said, my first protest was Picture the Homeless at a—you know, down at Podolsky. Oh, no! It was really Red Cross Double Cross, but I wasn't…  She wasn’t interviewing me; I had an independent reporter. Her name was Sandy Beckham. She actually came to the office too. And she's the one—was my media person. Because she was independent, and she wanted to know, you know. She went—she followed us! She followed us from Red Cross Double Cross all the way through, out the shelter system. But she was independent, so she didn't get the coverage. But she interviewed me, and I wasn't prepped or nothing. I didn't realize until—Holy Apostles? I was somewhere and they said, “Charmel, they got a big ass story on you.” [Laughs] I was like, “What?” At my hotel—and I remember the interview. It was at my hotel. And I remember telling her—I said, “Sandy I need a pack of cigarettes.” She said, “Charmel, I ain’t supposed to do that.” But she bought them.  
 
Lucas: [02:45:56] I think Sam—I have to give that now, for Sam, who always done. No, he went—he went to the next level. I guess Sandy was my preparation. And Sam was like, “Just work at it.”
 
Lewis: In what ways?
 
Lucas: As far as… So, I watch a lot of media. There's news—and they always seem like they bring the raggedy ass person, no teeth... Even though my mouth ain't no better than nobody else’s... And don't know nothing! And I learned, from good people, you got to get the right point across. What you mean, not what you think. What you know, not what you think you need to know. You need to know exactly what you're talking about. So, when people see you. They can feel you.
 
Lucas: [02:47:10] You know earlier in our interview; I told you about my life. And I seen some tears in your eyes. And I didn't want to break down you know, because could turn this into a crying festival. [Laughs] But! But—you got to connect with people! And you know, that's why I'm kind of sick of what's going on. You got—if you're not connecting with people who the hell are y’all talking to? You might as well be talking to the wall. So…
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Lucas: At least… If you don’t connect with people…
 
Lewis [02:47:53] You know—you know, this is the final person I'm going to bring up that was talking about you the other day. [Smiles]
 
Lucas: [Laughs] I don’t like how that sounds! But that's fine. I know it was all out of good or bad... It don’t make a difference at this point.
 
Lewis: No, no, no! It's all—not just good, but powerful. Is that Anthony Williams—because we have regular Picture the Homeless Oral History Project meetings and he brought up that he saw a YouTube video of you testifying to the city council, I think.
 
Lucas: Mmmm!
 
Lewis: [02:48:33] I remember when COVID hit and the BBC and Democracy Now! All these different people wanted to interview someone, and I know for a lot—for a lot of people at Picture the Homeless, you are a go-to person in terms of being reliable and solid and clear.
 
Lewis: [02:49:02] And so I just wanted to tell—I wanted… I'm telling you this because I want you to know how appreciated you are.
 
Lucas: Thank you. Don’t bring me to tears. This is not a tear jerker?
 
Lewis: Well, I—I, I moved to tears because you mean a lot to me. And you mean a lot to a lot of people that worked with you. And so even though we're on a computer and we can't reach out and hug, and even though there's not an office where we see each other anymore, those relationships are still in our hearts.
 
Lucas: I appreciate that.
 
Lewis: And—and they're real. And so I just—I wanted you to know that.
 
Lucas: I appreciate that. I really do.
 
Lewis: [02:49:56] I guess the last kind of things I would ask about, just so as we're documenting the work of Picture the Homeless, people know—not only did you speak to the press, but I remember you coming in early in the morning to make press phone calls.
 
Lucas: [Laughs]
 
Lewis: So, what were you doing? What were you coming in… I know this is like before eight in the morning, coming in really early.
 
Lucas: Yeah Sam… Only for Sam… [Unclear, laughs]  
 
Lewis: What were you doing?
 
Lucas: Well, Sam would print out that list... You know for me, media is what—A, you know N—you know, CBS, NBC… You know, the regulars. But he had a lot of different, like you said, independent press. I mean, you know—Democracy Now! And I would just give them a call. “Have you had—did you receive a press release? And if not, we're having a press conference and blah-blah-blah.” Then, you know—some people would send me, “Well, I'm going to send you to the press office…” And then some, “Yes, we got it. Yes, somebody will be there.” I've heard a couple of times, “Look, there's a lot of other stuff covering. We're not going to be able to be there. But we did receive your press release.” So…
 
Lucas: [02:51:19] It was very interesting to see how stories get through. Yeah, it was very interesting. And you brought that up, so—I was doing a… Either a Daily News or Post piece—this was way after and… I think this was before even my son had, you know—passed. And I had did the  interview with the gentleman and brought me back to verify—you know, go over everything we said, you know. I was at my daughter's friend Ashley’s house. And he said, yeah—you know, it was the second call. He said, “We’re about—we’re about to go to the press.” You know, not press, the publisher or whatever, you know. And he said he, “wanted to make sure, blah-blah-blah..” And within twenty minutes... So, I had told him everything I know about the city, what they’re doing—the money, the this, the that. You know, I don't remember the whole interview. He called back—after he said, “I'm about to send this off.” Same thing, blah-blah-blah. He called me back and within twenty minutes he said, “Charmel, I don't know what happened.” But he said, they cancelled his story. [Long pause] I’ve had reporters stories cancelled, because I talk too much. And they’re not supposed to re—talk about it or reprint it.
 
Lewis [02:53:08] So, to switch it up a little bit,
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: because we didn’t just—it just wasn't all work, right? And so, do you have any memories of fun times
 
Lucas: Ha! Well…
 
Lewis: at Picture the Homeless?
 
Lucas: Picture the Homeless was always a little bit of fun. Especially at some of them meetings. But you just didn't know who was going to show up! Ha! I think, for me… What was very empowering was going on protest marches. Hmm! And I had spoken to you, I think later that evening. It was that big march, “Hands up. Don't shoot.” Over 14th Street, all the way down and around, shut down 14th… I enjoyed that. [Laughs] I ain't gonna say now? With my hips and my back hurting… I don’t  know about that enjoying a good protest, but it wasn't like we were speed racing, you know. You can lag back, or you can be up front—it’s up to you.
 
Lucas: [02:54:25] I enjoyed the protests. I enjoyed shutting stuff down. I enjoyed people saying, “Yeah!” The ones that couldn't come on the protests, and they were on the sidewalk saying, “Yeah!” The bus drivers and the truck drivers, and the cab drivers and everybody honking! Yeah, they didn't mind. They didn't give a freak. We were stopping up traffic. I enjoyed that. And the best part out of it? Was right there at 42nd Street, at that little police station. And I was with Al and somebody else and we said, “Oh, Hands Up, Don't Shoot! Hands Up…” And the momentum? And them cops, they stood back like, “Oh.” They just looked. I know it’s getting dark in here, I’m in my bathroom.
 
Lucas: [02:55:10] They stood back like this, and we said, “Hands Up, Don't Shoot! Hands Up, Don't Shoot!” And we got all so close up in a cop's face, and he didn't know what the fuck to do. That felt good! Sorry Lynn. [Laughs] You know that [excited crosstalk] really felt good… Because I ain't into intimidating people, but I'm gonna say it really felt good. “Hands up, Don't Shoot! Hands Up, Don’t Shoot! Hands Up, Don't…” And I mean the momentum went boom-boom-boom-boom—and they got faster and faster and crazier—nobody cursed…  Hands Up, Don't Shoot! Hands Up, Don't Shoot! And that's what we did. Hands Up, Don't Shoot. And then the cops were like… Yeah, we mean what we saying.
 
Lucas [02:55:55] And that's when they brought the other cops with the zip ties. Yeah. Yeah. It was very exciting. Very exciting. Very exciting. For Al and I, but it was very exciting. It was and we still talk about that. Still talk about that, it was a long [unclear] walk. 14th Street all the way down to 59th Street—uh! And what was also exciting was, for some... So Ryan invited Al and I to come to that. We were like, “Oh, we don’t know… “ And so we went. We didn’t see no Ryan; we didn’t see nobody. But you know, there’s people… So we’re, “Okay. We're going to go.”
 
Lucas: [02:56:44] So we went down 14th Street. I don't know what blocks they cut through, but we was in the front—and the police had closed off the tunnel! And whoever was directing us… So the police just knew we were going to make a left. No—we made a straight right down 42nd Street! [Laughs] So, they had all their protection at the tunnel! You're not even thinking about 42nd Street for us. That’s where we’re going! [Laughs]
 
Lucas: [02:57:23] Oh, it was so much my fun. It was so much fun. It really was. And that's when I had spoken to you maybe later that evening, or the next day. And you was like, “Oh the police came with the bus—you know, to lock people up…” But Al and I, after 59th Street we couldn't just go no further. We was done. But we—hey, we did 14th Street to 59th.
 
Lewis: [02:57:52] Yeah, I remember that one because they had the NYPD busses that look like school busses [laughs and excited crosstalk], regular busses looking like police busses. I know, I'm like, “Where do they keep these? How many do they have?” You know?
 
Lucas: Exactly! They got ready to lock us all up. Now let’s get that right… Child… [Laughs]  
 
Lewis: [02:58:13] Good Lord. Charmel, I want to just let you know some people have done more than one interview, like Marcus…
 
Lucas: No worries, you know I’m here Lynn… I love you girl.
 
Lewis: You could do more! I'm telling you, because you have a lot to share. So I want you to know that. Like, after we get off the—off of this, you know what's going to happen? It happens to me too, is we'll get to remember other things, you know? And so if anything pops in your head like, “Oh shit, I should have said this, or I wanted to say that.” We can do this again. You can imagine Jean; I interviewed him four times. I'm sure he has more to say.
 
Lucas: He’s still talking ain’t he? [Laughs] He still does.
 
Lewis: So I would love to interview you again, but
 
Lucas: Don’t worry about it girl.
 
Lewis: [02:59:09] Well, I would love to! But to wrap up a little bit, is there anything else that you want to say? That you feel that needs to be said.
 
Lucas: I'll top it off with this. I wish there would be more organizations like Picture the Homeless. Because there's a lot of organizations, I talk to a lot of organizers and a lot of people are about the funding. They’re on one thing. But they want to throw up homelessness to get their funding. You’re not about homelessness, you’re about… I'm just going to throw it out there. You’re about hangers,  you know, “Well you know, we got the hanger business going on and… But you know, we give—every hanger we sell, we’re going to give one to homeless people.” I wish it would just be more people, about organizations—about homelessness. Because everybody at the end of the day forgets you can become homeless. You can become homeless! At the end of the day. Silver spoon in your mouth, blah-blah-blah. You just can…
 
Lucas: [03:00:35] So, I would just really wish... And I try my damnedest. Right now, I'm just—hmmm… Here in the shelter, giving people their rights—wheelchair back and forth, conversation… But it’s either nobody don't know, or they don't care. And I really would hope they don't know. Don't sit around and don't care. I just—you know. And if you don't know, find out! Ask! Yeah.
 
Lewis [03:01:12] So, it's 2022 to almost 2023, and it sounds like y'all entered the shelter system in 2012?
 
Lucas: Yeah.
 
Lewis: What's the future look like?
 
Lucas: Hmmmm. Well, for me right about now… Mmmm. I’ve learned so much information that your average client wouldn't know. The future’s looking like—I'm going to hold everybody accountable for all this—everybody. And it's not monetary money accountability. It's going to be your soul. It's going to be on my account. It's going to be your accountability when, God forbid—you’re going to be walking in my shoes. That's what I'm looking for. Oh, it’s going… And I want you to be there with me too. I want everybody to see what an asshole you always been. I'm looking forward to it. I'm very excited! Very excited Lynn. I had to tell my director here—my housing specialist, “Oh, the mayor got a new plan for city FEPS.” My housing specialist, he saw me the other day! So, he looked at me. I looked at him. He's on the other side of the room but he looked—he looked back. He said, “Thank you.” And I said, “For what?” “The information.” Now, how the hell am I telling my housing specialist information? Why there's no direct line hotline from the mayor—making announcement about changes in the shelter? Why the fuck don’t y’all know?
 
Lewis: No…
 
Lucas: We're going to hold them all accountable Lynn. If I don't do nothing else, I'm going to hold all of them accountable!
 
Lewis: But Charmel, I'm going to email you. I don't know—do you know that a bunch of these interviews are online so you can listen to them?
 
Lucas: Of course. No worries.
 
Lewis: Do you know that though? There's a bunch already up?
 
Lucas: No. No. So what is it on?
 
Lewis: I'll send you the link. But there's something called—there's something called SoundCloud.
 
Lucas: Mm-Hmmm. I've heard of it; I’ll see if I can use it.  
 
Lewis: I'll send you the link. There's the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project. I think I've got thirty-two interviews up.
 
Lucas: Wow…
 
Lewis: And I'm going to—I'm working on putting the rest up there. So, I'll send them to you, and I'll send you the link so you—you can listen and it'll take me a couple of weeks to transcribe this.
 
Lucas: No of course, take your time.  
 
Lewis: And then—but this has been amazing.
 
Lucas: It has been.
 
Lewis: And I appreciate you and your time and your sincerity.  
 
Lucas: And I appreciate you too. Don’t have me crying now. We ain’t cried through this whole interview. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: I know, right? There were like—the tears were like, right there. Then they went back. [Laughs]
 
Lucas: I mean, there they are... [Laughs]
 
Lucas: Yeah go on! Hey, do what you gotta do. You know, we went way over your time, but feel free any time, I'm here. I’m here Lynn.
 
Lewis [03:04:43] No these, you know, you know with these interviews, there's no time limit because I think it's very important for people to say what they want to say. And that's why I also say if there's another one? If stuff comes up? I'll do it. You know, there's not a limit. This is—this is my whole thing this year, I—I—this is what I'm focusing on. And so, I am grateful for the time that people share with me.
 
Lucas: Well I'm grateful that you even asked me.
 
Lewis: Oh no, I—you could not be—you could not be overlooked!
 
Lucas: Ha! I appreciate that. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [Laughs]
 
Lucas: [03:05:26] I’ll let you know when I get my makeover…
 
[Excited cross talk]

Lewis: Yeah, I want to know about it!

Lucas: I hope they give me new teeth and everything. I don’t know. [Laughter] I can’t wait for this—it’s NBC now! [Laughs] I just came from the lady so—try to make a long story short…  So, I’ve been going on job fairs and stuff with Bottomless Closet, blah-blah-blah… I met up with Monica Morales, you heard of her? Monica Morales, Pix11 News. She does all the good news on—you know, good things, community things. So she came to Bottomless Closet because they got a new space, on 34th [Street], like a few blocks away from me. And, I guess I just stand out, you know? And they called me about a month ago and they said, “Hey, Charmel…” And I wasn’t going to answer. And I was like, “Yeah, hello?” And she said, “Hey, Charmel, how are you doing? Ba-ba-ba… My name is so-and-so, ah… We wanted to know; NBC News wanted to know—would you like to do a total makeover?”  
 
Lucas: [03:06:32] And oh, I remember. So, when they called me. I was on my way out. But something told me, “Take this conversation back in so you don't lose connection.” And I was just very overwhelmed and flabbergasted. Total makeover? [Laughs]
 
Lewis: It sounds fun. It sounds fun. [Smiles]
 
Lucas: That’s why I said I'm gonna let my hair grow all out and whatever y'all want to do... But if I cut my hair now—you know, they’re going to call me, and then they want to put a wig on me. No..
 
Lewis: [03:07:05] Well, you have a—you have a… One of your many gifts is that you make things fun. [Laughter] So, if it's not fun on its own…
 
Lucas: [Laughs] Stuff is not always fun…
 
Lewis: Yeah, if it's not fun on its own, you make it fun somehow. [Laughs]
 
Lucas: [Laughs] Oh God… Love you Lynn!
 
Lewis: I will be in touch with you. I love you, too.
 
Lucas: Alright, you have a blessed and happy holiday and tell your family I said the same.
 
Lewis: Thank you. Tell Al and everybody hey for me. Bye.
 
Lucas: Bye. Bye baby.