Brooke Lehman

Lewis: [00:00:00] Alright, here we go. So,

Lehman: Thank you, and this is really fun for me, to just think of all these things that I haven’t thought of in so long.

Lewis: Well, and after we get off the—after we finish, you know, you’ll probably like, go take a shower, or whatever [laughs], wash dishes and—shit! Remember things… So, it is April 11th, 2023, and I'm Lynn Lewis interviewing Brooke Lehman for the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project. Good morning Brooke.

Lehman: Morning.

Lewis: How are you?

Lehman: Excited to be here.

Lewis: Good.

Lehman: Excited to talk about Picture the Homeless.

Lewis: Well, as somebody who has memories and relationship with Picture the Homeless dating back to the very, very early days—and there's a through line from those years 2000 'til now, this interview will be really important, and we appreciate your time.

Lehman: Thank you.

Lewis: [00:01:04] So, folks get to know you a little bit, would you share where you're from, where you grew up?

Lehman: Sure. I'm from New York City. I was born in 1972. I spent most of my childhood on the Upper East Side. And which actually, I feel like is relevant in some ways to some of my experiences with Picture the Homeless, or my engagement. And I don't know if you want me to go into that now—here.

Lewis: You can!

Lehman: So, I grew up on the Upper East Side, in the '70's and '80's. And the '70s and '80s were— had a lot of very visible people without homes, all over the streets. I lived around 86th Street and I just remember, you know, just that experience as a kid who grew up very affluent, seeing folks sitting on the sidewalks and just... There was some interesting organizing around that in my school. I was in middle school, that I remember being very impressed by and trying to figure out how to get involved as a young person.

Lehman: [00:12:34] But really, you know, I just ended up—when I was able to sort of be a little bit more on my own, which back in the ‘80s eighties was like, [laughs] at like eleven we were allowed to run around on the streets by ourselves, which I don't think I would allow my kid to do, you know, in today's day. But it's funny, we were—I think most kids had a lot more freedom back in the '70s and '80s, for better or for worse. But, I just started getting to know some of the folks that were on the street in my neighborhood, and started bringing food out at night, like just sandwiches. I'd go home and make sandwiches, and then I'd also [laughs] pilfer my parents linen closet. I don't know that I asked permission, and just bring bags of stuff out.

Lehman: [00:03:29] And I remember… I went to college on the West Coast and coming back and,  you know, it had been a year or something, and running into one of the men that I had met while I was in high school, and he said hello to me, by name. And I was like, "Oh hi, how are you? I'm surprised you remember me." And he said that I was the only person—I know how this could be true. But he said I was the only person who had really engaged him, in the entire year." And that just really hit me and just—you know, I just remember feeling like, "Holy shit. How is that even possible that these folks who are, you know, part of the community and part of everybody's daily existence, aren't known to anybody." Or that was my impression, at the time.

Lehman: [00:04:28] And so in college—I went to college on the West Coast. And you can stop me at any time if I'm... But I went to Reed College in Portland, Oregon, and, I can't remember… It probably wasn't my freshman year. Maybe it was my sophomore year? It may have been my—I think it was my freshman year, I got involved in a place called Operation Nightwatch. So, you know, just from those experiences and growing up in the city, I just felt like I wanted to be involved with the homeless population in Portland, and ran into an organization called Operation Nightwatch, which was just a really beautiful organization that I ended up volunteering at for six years, which was run by a—I guess, a minister. I had nothing to do with the church [laughs]. I was like completely church-ignorant. But it was run by a church, and it was a guy named Gary—he ran a little space—you know, it was probably five-hundred square feet. It wasn't very big. But it was—it had a few little rooms, and we were a homeless—we were a hospitality space, and that was it.

Lehman: [00:05:50] And so people came in at night. It was three nights a week. People would come in and we would serve like sandwiches, but not like meal-sandwiches, just a half a sandwich and coffee, and we had games, and we didn't do any emergency services out of there, but we would—if somebody really needed something, know who to call. And so we could call somebody to help them find a place to sleep or, or something more substantial. But what I loved about the space was because it didn't offer services, it offered connection. Like, that's what people came there for. They weren't coming there because they needed something. They're coming there for friendship and for community, and that's really what it was.

Lehman: [00:06:35] And I made some really deep friendships there that, you know... I kept one of them. One of the men that I met there was this man, Matt—who was a homeless activist, and he had had cancer since he was two, Matt Barrett. He was a homeless poet, and he would take young people out in the school system and have them sleep on the street for the night. He was just very inspiring. He was about three-hundred fifty to four-hundred pounds, and he had grafts all over his skin, because of his cancer. He had a very rare sort of skin cancer that then was sort of an everything cancer. And he and I stayed friends, and I actually helped him end his life, about five years ago. We had stayed friends and I said—you know, I knew he was in a lot of pain, and I said, “If you ever really are going to kill yourself, you have to do it with me.” And so he did. And so I went out to Seattle and spent the last week with him, and helped him die.

Lehman: [00:07:48] But it was just like—you know, he really, he and some other folks there that I was close with just changed the course of my life in a very significant way and opened my eyes to things that due to my own privilege growing up, I just didn't have an understanding of, and still don't understand all the things and the ways they walk through the world.

Lehman: [00:08:12] But, when I left Portland to move back to New York—I moved back to New York in 1997, in part because my dad was old and needed some support. I didn't actually think I was moving back, but I did move back, and in part because I felt like the politics in Portland were all focused on marijuana. It just wasn't very interesting to me, in a certain way. I moved back to New York and that was—those were some of the hardest relationships to leave, in part—because some of those folks were older and I knew that I wouldn't necessarily see them again.

Lehman: [00:08:25] And you know, working at Operation Nightwatch was really impactful. And part of what Gary wanted me to do there was to make sure that some of the younger church folks, like young kids who were in the church, weren't proselytizing, and I loved that. [Smiles] That was part of my job was to—working at a Christian organization, making sure that people just did not talk about God to people, unless they actually were inviting it. But I also watched a lot of the social services and some of the things that were happening, around support for mental health and things like that.

Lehman: [00:09:32] I could always tell... You could tell, sort of different times of the month, just sort of like the vibe of the space would change dramatically, based on whether people had gotten checks and had gone out and had some fun with it, or when people's medications were changing. You know, it was just—there was a lot of... It was very interesting, and a lot of poetry, and I had actually a lot of respect for the sort of intersection of mental health and homelessness. A couple of my friends were schizophrenic, and I felt like through that community, I was able to see the beauty and the creativity, in addition to the struggle.

Lehman: [00:10:22] And, you know, watching them get involved—getting picked up by police and things like that were also struggles that, you know, as a—I was quite, I was too young to actually know what to do, but to just sort of like be alongside folks in those experiences. And I started a homeless garden while I was out there too, because a lot of people were expressing the desire to be engaged in the land. And so we had a little plot in a community garden for Operation Nightwatch, and folks would come and help garden, and we had picnics and things like that.

Lehman: [00:11:04] So that, you know—it's funny, it's hard for me to even remember those times. But moving back to New York in 1997, that's what I was leaving, and those were a lot of my friends. And so, you know, I was in New York for a number of years and knew that that was something that I wanted to have in my life, was a connection to... You know, back in Portland, it was more like a—it wasn't service oriented, but community oriented. I wanted to be in community and in relationship to homeless struggles and folks who were living and experiencing some of the things that some of my friends in Portland were, and recognizing very quickly that New York was a frickin' beast compared to Portland around, you know—around not having homes. In Portland there was a lot of services for the size of the city it was, and more temperate weather and, I think just an easier place to not be anonymous. You know, I felt like there was a sense in the downtown of who everybody was. And when I moved to New York, and had some interactions with Catholic Worker and just—yeah, just felt like, "Okay, we're in a different landscape here."

Lehman: [00:12:35] So, I moved back to New York. I was trying to figure out whether I wanted to go into naturopathic healing work or, you know, sort of what I was doing. I wasn't entirely clear. I was working at summer camps. I was farming in Vermont, and I met Murray Bookchin at the Institute for Social Ecology. And I had—I was in an NYU graduate program in environmental philosophy really, and went for the summer to Vermont, to the Institute for Social Ecology, met Murray Bookchin and also met Slima Williams.

Lehman: [00:13:17] And through that relationship—and got a political education, which was really key. You know, I'd somehow been doing a lot of work over the years, but I had no political education. You know, I knew—I was doing things based on my heart and what I was seeing, but I had no analysis of capitalism or anything. And somehow I managed to go to a very lefty school, but I was a neuro major [laughs] and did not—had no political education at all. So, I met Murray Bookchin, started understanding the roots of capitalism and different visions for revolutionary work.

Lehman: [00:14:00] And when I went back to New York after this month long summer program, I then got involved in the Institute for Social Ecology. I'm still on the board and still very active in the Institute for Social Ecology, but I came back to New York City. And, the Institute for Social Ecology for many years had had a deep relationship with the Lower East Side, which is where I lived, coincidentally. And in particular, in addition to Slima, who had been going to the Institute for Social Ecology in Vermont, for probably already twenty years when I got there, was Chino. And so Chino was somebody I met very early on when I moved—when I came back to the city after that summer and was introduced to CHARAS community center, and I remember Armando as well, though Chino is really—Chino is best friends with Dan Chodorkoff in Vermont, and Luis Guzman was around. And, you know—so there were all these interesting people who were weirdly connected to my school in Vermont, but that were in my community in the Lower East Side.

Lehman: [00:15:16] And so, CHARAS, which was already perpetually under threat by the city, became sort of a home base for me, for the next bunch of years. I got involved in Reclaim the Streets and we were organizing then out of the Hub, which was Bill—Bill Di Paola and Time's Up! space, on Third Street. They had a big space for their pedicabs and whatnot, and we were organizing Reclaim the Streets largely out of there. And then at some point, we started organizing out of CHARAS.

Lewis: [00:16:13] I just want to—so for people that don't know about Reclaim the Streets and Time's Up! what kinds of things were—were they working on? What kinds of issues were they working on and what kind of what type of tactics were they using to do that?

Lehman: [00:16:28] Well, I'll take a little step back. I got involved in Reclaim the Streets because I went to a meeting that I was invited to, [smiles] because I was visiting—I was visiting Slima at Two Boots Pizza place, and I ran into somebody I knew from the camp that I worked at, in Vermont who said, "Oh, you should check out the Lower East Side Collective." And I was like, "Okay." And so, I went to this meeting that was at... I mean, I just mentioned the places because they don't exist anymore, and they were so amazing. But it was at the old Knitting Factory, when it was on Houston Street. We had a meeting—we used to meet in the upstairs of the Knitting Factory for the Lower East Side Collective. Which was hilarious, because it was like probably eighty percent professors like—or like grad students. Everybody was like, super educated, [laughs] like Stephen Duncombe and [pauses] Leslie... What is Leslie's last name? A lot of—but they were all very involved in gentrification, anti-gentrification work. That was sort of the main focus.

Lehman: [00:17:49] It was the end of the nineties and I imagine Giuliani was already in office, although I can't remember when that horrible human being came into power, but I think it was already then. So, there was a lot of focus on countering the Giulianification of New York City, and the gentrification of everywhere, and the privatization of public spaces and just the—the eviction of all the gardens, and the harassment of—of all sorts of people... Punks... Of the squats... Of bikers... Of homeless people... Just everybody was getting harassed.

Lehman: [00:18:34] There was a zero tolerance policy that they, that the—even the NYPD, you know, talking to some of the police as I did, at times... A lot of NYPD didn't even appreciate the— what Giuliani was enacting. You know, because they weren't even allowing police at that time to use their common sense to determine who they wanted to harass. They were—you know, they had quotas, so they had to... It was part of their job to just arrest people, and give people tickets for everything. And so, that was a lot of the focus of the Lower East Side Collective.

Lehman: [00:19:15] And the first meeting, I went there, Bill Di Paola was there and presented one of the working group—or presented Reclaim the Streets, the idea of Reclaim the Streets. And I thought it was—I thought Reclaim the Streets was just a working group of—and I was like "Oh, that sounds cool!' So, I joined Reclaim the Streets. And Reclaim the Streets was a movement that was started in London, where they were doing all kinds of political action, but turning them into street parties. So, politicizing people through parties. You know, this was rave time and young people... It was not very popular to be politically active [laughs] back then. And so we thought, "Okay well, we'll engage young people in all these issues through parties, and through street parties." And, so we—and Bill Di Paola's Time's Up! was doing Critical Mass bike rides.

Lehman: [00:20:21] And so, you know—again, because so many bikers, bicycle riders were getting harassed and ticketed and we were having these mass bike rides with hundreds of people, and just taking over the streets and reclaiming them for—and a lot of people were getting killed by cars. There were no bike lanes back then. And so, a lot of it was about just carving out space in the city for humans—and against capitalism, against police, against corporatization of everything, and the state. And so there was a—you know, there was a felt sense of camaraderie, of just like, "Oh, of course, these things are all connected."

Lehman: [00:21:09] And even the… You know—the community gardens, many of them had been started by people who were in the neighborhood. They were also spaces for people who didn't have homes to spend time, and for community to meet, and they were regarded as threats to the Giuliani administration, because people organized out of the gardens. And in the same way, you know, the history of the gardens in many ways maps onto the history of CHARAS, of being squatted by young folks from the neighborhood and turned into political institutions with no money, just with like a lot of sweat equity, and care, and vision. And they were being threatened by Giuliani and the powers that be. So, we were fighting for them.

Lehman: [00:22:02] And so Reclaim the Streets—the first Reclaim the Streets we did, was in 2000—no, in 1998. And we took over Broadway and Astor Place and had… I don't know whether we called that one a Carnival Against Capital. We were very careful; we couldn't even use the word capitalism then. We had to talk about like, corporate globalization and the corporatization of our cities. But basically, you know, it was—the sense was like, this like, funky part of New York was being completely taken over by McDonalds, and other corporate entities.

Lehman: [00:22:41] And so we welded a sound system into a big cage and got deejays in a van, or in like a bread truck nearby and we got—we learned from Brad Will, who was a part of Reclaim the Streets and a dear friend, how to create tripods, because he had been involved in Earth First out on the West Coast, which I had also been involved in, but less so than Brad. And he taught us how to build a tripod, which was—you know, three twenty-six foot construction poles, put together with rope at the top that opened into like a Tee Pee structure. And we, our friend Lewis, put on a pair of wings that Aresh Javadi from More Gardens, had made for him, a bunch of really beautiful butterfly wings. And we sent him up the tripod in the middle of Astor Place and Broadway and stopped traffic. And we had—for weeks before, we made palm cards that looked like rave palm cards, like little postcards that looked like the best party you could ever be invited to. And we went all through NYU and anywhere we could think of where there would be young people, and handed out these postcards inviting people to this party.

Lehman: [00:24:15] And so at this… We all met at the Astor Place Cube and then moved over into the streets, and had this dance party until folks were arrested. And it was just a big politicizing, very fun moment. A lot of people, you know, there are a number of people who came to that party who then became lifelong organizers. And so it was interesting. We would like pick people up through these kind of parties. The next one we did, we actually did a very small one, where we told everybody there was going to be another big party, in the same place.

Lehman: [00:24:51] And so there were—I think [laughs] there were hundreds of cops that showed up and we showed up with a boombox playing Vivaldi and had a Tea Party and handed out tea, just to show the police response to the criminal—we called it the Criminalization of Public Dissent. And lots of people were saying, "Why are all these cops here?" And we would say, "To protect you." And they'd say, "From who?" And we'd say, "From us!" [Laughs] You know? And we were handing out pies and tea, and you know, it was very silly and creative. But there were a lot of very creative people thinking through these actions at the time.

Lehman: [00:25:28] The next one was around the community garden evictions. A number of us were also involved in a few, sort of very intense evictions. One was the eviction of Dos Blockos, which was a squat on the Lower East Side. And we knew that the squat was going to get evicted, and we welded the door shut the night before, and created seesaws and a big breakfast. We found barrels on the street and created barbecues and made everyone breakfast, and created seesaws out of the cops—the cops barricades.

Lehman: [00:26:15] Again, just like so much creativity and energy around again—making people homeless, enjoying making people homeless by evicting the squat that Brad Will lived in, and other people who were very politically active. And then there was the evictions of these gardens, and one in particular was Esperanza Garden, and I was actually arrested in that action. The police came in and they bulldozed the garden before the courts could even meet to put a stay on it. It was just, it was all very aggressive, and we felt like we were fighting a little war, on the Lower East Side. And CHARAS was very much a hub for that, and CHARAS—we knew, was under threat as well. And so it really became this sort of galvanizing space.

Lehman: [00:27:10] This was all in the late nineties, and around that time we also were learning about institutions like the World Trade Organization. And we had—we knew that there was a— there were these global days of action that were happening. And this is all sort of the milieu that like—that Picture the Homeless was coming into being. And for us, we saw Picture the Homeless as like intimately tied to these global moments, and I think we all saw ourselves as part of a global movement.

Lehman: [00:27:56] There was these global days of action that were happening all over the world against—against capitalists sort of usurping of power on a global and state level, and also using global institutions like the World Trade Organization and the IMF and World Bank to take away people's rights, on a global scale. And there had been global days of action before, and there was an organization already called People's Global Action, that existed internationally, and the US was sort of catching on late, as we always do.

Lehman: [00:28:42] But in, particularly in San Francisco and New York, we were getting involved and there was a Global Day of Action on June 8th, 1999. And we decided to have a Reclaim the Streets, in solidarity. So, we created a Global Day of Action where we tried to [laughs] we tried to shut down Wall Street, which obviously we did much—much better at [smiles] twelve years later. But we did our old, same old, same old. We made a big sound system and Reclaim the Streets, you know, we wheeled it into the street, right at Zuccotti Park—which wasn't yet called Zuccotti Park. We wheeled it into the street then, and [smiles] people were locking down around a giant globe.

Lehman: [00:29:38] And all of the organizers, except for three of us, got arrested within [laughs] the first five minutes. Critical Mass was involved and, you know—all the groups that we knew, like were trying to do this thing, and we failed flagrantly. [Laughs] And a bunch of people got arrested. We ended up in the park. But what we did do, was we made a newspaper. Mitch Cohen and me and a guy named Brush spent like six days holed up in Mitch's apartment. I think in like, Brighton Beach or something, making this [laughs] newspaper explaining global capitalism to people, and the World Trade Organization. And, you know—it was when I_ _learned about all these things, like just making this newspaper. And we handed out like thousands of copies that day. So, that felt like a really significant thing—was just like connecting all these dots, and recognizing that the things that we were doing in the Lower East Side, in the East Village—had everything to do with what was happening all over the world.

Lehman: [00:30:50] And that moment ushered us into getting involved and creating the Direct Action Network, in New York City. But the original Direct Action Network was in response to the World Trade Organization coming to Seattle, in November—the end of November, of 1999. And I got very involved in that. I was still, you know—a student at the Institute for Social Ecology, but went out to Seattle, and a number of folks from the Lower East Side organizing also came out, like Brad and Sasha Dubreuil, and a whole bunch of other folks. But we were involved in helping to create the—the Direct Action Network that shut down the WTO meeting and ministerial in Seattle, in 1999. And during that ministerial, that whole period, in addition to shutting down the World Trade Organization, we started meeting—we were calling it the post WTO Working Group, and we were seeding what we were going to call the Continental Direct Action Network.

Lehman: [00:32:09] And one of the places we were definitely going to start, or I was definitely going to start a Direct Action Network, was in New York City. And prior to the World Trade Organization we had a No to WTO Coalition in New York City, and we had done some teach-ins, and some direct actions. We did a direct action at Burson-Marsteller. We hosted the PGA Caravan, which had folks from all over the world. And, you know, the Lower East Side was very much a place that felt like the right place to be hosting this caravan. It was like where action was happening in New York City, at least in our—in our eyes. And so after the shutdown in Seattle, I came back to New York, and I believe it was me, Leslie Wood, and Marina Citrin, maybe Seth Tobocman. But there was a bunch of us who then started the New York City chapter of the Direct Action Network—which David Graber came along, quite quickly. And it was just a really powerful two years.

Lehman: [00:33:21] And we—our first meetings, and every single meeting for the Direct Action Network was in CHARAS community center, and that's where we met Picture the Homeless. And so that—I think our first meeting was in January of 2000, which was the same time that Picture the Homeless had their first meeting. And so, I don't know that we realized that it was Picture the Homeless's first meeting, or first, you know... For us, like we were coming into this amazing Puerto Rican community center and there was this… Like I saw, you know—the organizing that was happening around the Puerto Rican community center, there were a lot of artists in the—and some of them were friends of mine, but that seemed separate. [Laughs] I mean, you know it was like, upstairs were the artists, but downstairs was like—there was just like activists meeting everywhere.

Lehman: [00:34:09] And so to me, just Picture the Homeless was a fixture already. I don't think I super realized that it was new. It just was like these amazing guys I met. I met Anthony, and became friends with Anthony, quickly. And you know, again, I knew Slima and Chino from the Institute for Social Ecology, I knew Slima quite well. So, it was like… I remember hanging out in the office with you and Chino, and you and Chino were a couple then—is that. Yeah. So, Lynn and Chino were a couple. [Smiles] And, I remember your daughter. And Slima and Anthony... And just—it was just like, that was like the scene in the office, at CHARAS.

Lehman: [00:34:57] Like, Picture the Homeless had a desk in there, if I'm not wrong.

Lewis: Yeah.

Lehman: So to me, it wasn't just like—to me, that was like Picture the Homeless headquarters, and we were like the folks that came in on… I think we've met Sunday's. I can't remember, but I think it was Sunday nights for two years, or until CHARAS was evicted. We met there, and the Direct Action Network in New York City, was—you know, going to be responding to things like the IMF and World Bank and the global institutions that were going to come through town, or be in D.C. We were going to organize people around that. But we really saw those as the global yucky head of what we are already very involved in, in the Lower East Side—which was just the corporatization of everything, and capitalism just dehumanizing people.

Lehman: [00:36:01] And so the opportunity to work with Picture the Homeless was—just felt so lucky to us, to have... And it's, you know—the serendipity was not just that, "Oh, here's this issue.” But here's this issue that is being addressed not by like a social service organization, or by a nonprofit with a very traditional sort of model. But these are people that were living the struggle, and that were coming together—like us, scrappy as hell, like just scrappy, and with just heart and a desire to meet the need and—yeah.

Lehman: [00:36:51] I just remember, just being in awe of Picture the Homeless and just learning about a different way of organizing, by just really organizing with a base of folks who were struggling with homelessness, and seeing Picture the Homeless as—as a familial type of organization. Like an organization that was really not just about the issues, but about the people that were involved in organizing. Like, I just couldn't help but see… You know, I think Picture the Homeless talked about itself very clearly as a family. And I saw it that way, it was just—and I felt myself to be a part of it, because we all felt like we were—we were a bunch of weirdos, you know? I'm like this girl from the Upper East Side. Like, what the hell was I doing in this? Why do I even... Why was I even allowed [laughs] to be doing that kind of organizing?

Lehman: [00:38:01] But I just felt—I felt really invited, and really a part of a community that felt meaningful on so many different levels, and that was meeting this moment. You know, everyone was meeting this moment, that Giuliani... I mean, Giuliani was the most perfect villain we could ever ask for. [Laughs] It's just—he was just like a wonderful, he was a wonderful character to just hate, because he was—just was going after everybody, in the most despicable way and the most transparent way. And in some ways, he was like a breath of fresh air because there was nothing hidden. There was no hidden agenda with Giuliani. He was just disgusting.

Lewis: No dancing. No dancing in bars! Remember that? It's like what?!

Lehman: [00:38:58] Yeah. He was going to get [laughs] rid of... He was criminalizing—it was the Cabaret Laws that you couldn't dance in a bar that didn't have a license for dancing. And they were fucking serious. Like, they were shutting down bars if people dared to dance. Like absurd—like you couldn't dance on the streets. So, of course, like you're just handing us the opportunity… You know, suddenly like, the act of dancing is a revolutionary act. So, wow! That's like, the funnest thing I've ever heard of. That's like straight out of Emma Goldman, you know? I don't know if she actually said, "If we can't dance, it's not my revolution." But there we were, we were just like—so we were having dance parties in the streets as our form of protest, and it was just joyful and intense.

Lehman: [00:39:48] And this, you know—the combination of the squat evictions, and all the squatters that were involved in these movements—in connection with the homeless organizing, felt really aligned. There were people like Reverend Frank Morales who were sort of bridging a lot of that, those worlds—and it was just a really meaningful time where it felt like we were losing ground constantly, but we were also having impact.

Lehman: [00:40:28] And Picture the Homeless had, in many ways—more focus than all of us [laughs] you know, just in terms of like actually having a strategic agenda, and setting themselves apart from a lot of the other types of homeless organizations in the city, because they were organized by homeless folks. And I'm sure plenty of people have talked about that way more intimately, than I knew. But, that it was folks helping themselves and being their own voice, rather than looking to other people to be their voice. And that felt so like anarchistic, and aligned.

Lehman: [00:41:15] And it felt like—you know, for many of us in the global justice movement, we were talking about direct democracy, and here it was in action. You know, here are people taking back power and using their own voices to demand—for their own dignity. And I felt like many of us saw Picture the Homeless as like the embodiment of what we were striving to be.

Lehman: [00:41:44] For us, a lot of what we were doing, you know, a lot of the people involved in the global justice movement had privilege, of all different levels. There were certainly lots of folks who are squatting and… But a lot of what we were doing, for some of us, and I'll say myself in particular—was, were not based on personal threats, to our own livelihood. They were out of like, you know—moral [long pause] just a sense of indignation, at what we were seeing around us being horrifying. But I often wasn't, I was not—I was not the target of much of it, unless I put myself on that front line. I could make myself the target, and at times I was. But, in certainly my day to day life, I was completely insulated from most of the things that were that we were fighting against. And that was obviously not true of Picture the Homeless.

Lehman: [00:42:57] Yeah, so… I just have memories of coming out in support of—in support of different actions and just feeling like from then on—for me, Picture the Homeless became the organization that I cared most about—most about being in collaboration with, or in coalition with—moving forward. And that was for many, many years. It was just that an organization that I trusted. You know, I felt like I knew the people. And it wasn't like an organization where people were coming in and out of jobs, you know—where suddenly there was like a "new operations person" and like, you know, it was just like—a mission...

Lehman: [00:43:50] You know, many of the organizations where there's like a mission, and a board and a bunch of … And then there were jobs, where people sort of funneled in and out of. Picture the Homeless was the opposite, where it was really centered around the people, and the vision of the folks who were involved, you know. Anthony was not expendable. You know, Picture the Homeless moved through many years and generations of people. But none of those people were incidental, or there because they had a job. They were there because it was an extension of their own sense of self, was my impression.

Lehman: [00:44:27] And that was how we felt about the work that we were doing. So, it just felt like a very organic fit for us, and a teacher for some of the work that we are doing, and grounding in a lot of respects. I mean, Direct Action Network, we sort of ended doing what we were doing after two years, which seems crazy, and it was before CHARAS was evicted. I mean, we really didn't... I think we were around for maybe a year and a half, which seems so crazy because we did a lot, and I have a lot of memories from that time. But, I remember it sort of ending while we were still—while CHARAS was still in existence, and CHARAS was evicted in December of 2001, right?

Lehman: [00:45:23] Yeah. It was December, it was December of 2001, and we had been involved in—with Picture the Homeless, and with Slima, and trying to stave off that eviction—the Lower East Side Collective and... You know, there were a lot of actions around CHARAS, including interrupting some of the auctions. You know, CHARAS was being auctioned with community gardens. So, it was sort of like one in the same. But at one point, I can't believe I'm forgetting Leslie's last name, and maybe you can help me with it. Leslie...

Lehman: [00:46:08] Leslie had the idea of releasing crickets in one of the auctions, and it closed down the auction because everyone was suddenly surrounded by a thousand crickets. [Smiles] And it was so loud and people—you know, they were bouncing all over the place. I mean, there was just such brilliant actions. And it was such a poetic action to release crickets. Some of the animal rights folks didn't love it so much, but I thought it was amazing. And, you know, Greg Singer would come to—who ended up purchasing CHARAS and turning it into a wasteland, would come to CHARAS and we would have marching bands. We would have the Big Small Works and the Hungry March Band; we would just harass them away, [laughs] every time he came there, and it wasn't kind, but it was—effective, or so we thought.

Lehman: [00:47:14] But Giuliani… It was really Giuliani's last hurrah to evict—to evict all of us. And I think part of the reason Giuliani was _so focused on CHARAS… _Giuliani was like out of office practically when he evicted CHARAS, and I think had everything to do with the fact that Picture the Homeless was there. Picture the Homeless was no holds barred, like deeply critical of Giuliani, as were the Direct Action Network. But, you know, in many ways it was the hotbed. It was sort of the home of resistance to Giuliani. And that was—if he did nothing else, he was going to frickin' empty that building, and he did.

Lehman: [00:48:01] And, I can't remember... I think it was—was it December 21st or 26th? It was like stupid close to Christmas. I mean, it was just like the Grinch-iest move of all times that he evicted CHARAS. And you know, we tried to secure the building, but it was so... We were, you know, we did this with Picture the Homeless, Direct Action Network and Picture the Homeless—we were, you know—had a lot of skills in our community around securing buildings at that time. But it was just too big. There was just too many ways to get in. And they ended up coming in the backside, putting us out on the street, arresting some folks.

Lehman: [00:48:43] I remember them allowing—like nobody couldn't love Slima. Like there's just not a human being on earth who's capable of hating Slima. [Laughs] So, they put everybody out, but they were like, "Okay Slima, we know you have your stuff in this place, and they let Slima back in to pack up his things, and to come out. Which I thought was like, "Okay, there's a shred of humanity here.” [Smiles] But it was, you know, I think after that time—I know that you all moved to Judson, but we felt like, you know, without...

Lehman: [00:49:20] The loss of CHARAS felt like the loss of a heart. There was just—and in many ways it was our home, but it was also our connection to each other. You didn't have to think about being in relationship with each other. We just… That was where—that was our clubhouse, and suddenly it was gone. And, you know, in the midst of that, Armando had been murdered, and… I mean, those were—that year and a half really, from 2000—a two year period almost between that and CHARAS getting evicted, like everything in the frickin' world happened!

Lehman: [00:50:01] The war started, and we organized... And 9/11 happened! 9/11 happened in that period of time. And 9/11… The day after 9/11, we had four-hundred people in CHARAS in the big room. We started the No Blood for Oil coalition, which—there was no question where we were going to go, when that happened. Everyone went to CHARAS and started organizing. And again, more reason to evict the place. The World Economic Forum was coming to town. We were organizing out of CHARAS. And, yeah—I remember when CHARAS was evicted, and I'm sure this was even more impactful for folks from Picture the Homeless, but I just felt like I had been shredded and I ended up having sort of my, I guess I was twenty-nine year old version of a little nervous breakdown, where I realized that I could either organize, or cry—and there was like nothing else left in me.

Lehman: [00:51:09] And I did. I was organizing my little butt off around the World Economic Forum. I just felt like I had to do it. We didn't have... But like, I didn't even know where to be without CHARAS. And we were just scrambling, and it was very un-grounding. Yeah, I felt like that was very much an end of an era, for us. And two years later, I restarted Bluestockings bookstore, largely because I just knew—like, we didn't have... I just felt like there was no home base for us.

Lehman: [00:51:58] It's weird, of course there was Judson and there was other places like Clemente Soto Velez center. There were other spaces, but they just... You know, Judson [smiles] was too far away, was on the other side of the village, [laughs] but, it had a different… You know, it was a little bit more established feeling than CHARAS. CHARAS was like a free space. It just felt like—it was just open and welcoming, and... You know, Judson is amazing, but I just felt like—it was like my people calling in. I feel like I was scheduling half the time with you, or your daughter or you know—making sure that we had a space there. It was just always a yes.

Lehman: [00:52:49] And it just felt like somewhere that—in some ways there was a mutuality. And I think in part because CHARAS was threatened, in some ways, it made it feel like it was an entity itself. Because we were both meeting there and trying to protect it, and value it. So, it's just a testament again, to place and the importance of place and home, which was what you guys were organizing around. So, I imagine there was like a lot of subconscious feeling, and poetic feeling in losing a home base as a homelessness organization, even more so than for us in the Direct Action Network.

Lehman: [00:53:39] But that's largely why we started Bluestockings. It was because we needed a home base. And it never became the home base that I had intended for it to be. It was—became much more of a cultural institution, but my intention was for it to fill the shoes that CHARAS—in a thousand square feet rather than 20,000, [smiles] 30,000 square feet. I don't even know how big CHARAS was, but it was huge. And God, I can't believe all that stuff happened in a year and a half. Yeah, it was nuts.

Lehman: [00:54:20] But you know, some of the first groups that I was engaging with around Bluestockings was Picture the Homeless, in terms of having people come in and do programing and whatnot, at Bluestockings—and maintained my connection to Picture the Homeless. But it was much more… It was different because it wasn't... And I'm trying to remember—you know, it's hard to remember chronologically, all the things and all the different actions.

Lehman: [00:55:06] But I met Jean Rice [smiles] in that period, which is no small thing. He became my movement boyfriend. And although he had lots of girlfriends, and I was jealous. I remember going to one Picture the Homeless party where Jean gave me drink tickets, and then I realized that he was giving drink tickets to other girls, and I was like, “WTF, what the hell, Jean!” [Laughs]

Lewis: [Laughs] There's a picture of you sitting on Jean's lap at the vacant lot take over.

Lehman: Yes. [Laughs].

Lewis: [00:55:39] He's going to love this. But, I know one kind of… Something that helps me kind of remember chronology are actions [smiles] and when they had to have been happening... So, I think during the RNC

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: I remember you reaching out, because folks were meeting at Saint Mark's Church.

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: And we were—had been organizing from like January of 2004, the police started really cracking down on people in midtown, especially around Penn Station. And we got very involved in—when they declared like half of Manhattan a frozen zone and

Lehman: Wow.

Lewis: [00:56:28] You know, all the different types of security measures they were putting in place, that was—again, an excuse for criminalizing homeless folks and controlling—privatizing public space and reshaping, kind of just our culture in New York City, and prohibiting things like free assembly and... And so I was wondering if you have memories of the time around the RNC, and the organizing around that.

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: That you did with Picture the Homeless.

Lehman: [00:57:08] Yeah. So, I remember… You know, for me Picture the Homeless were kind of [pause] my comrades. You know, I felt like a trusted bond. And we started the… [Long pause] What the hell did we call it? The No RNC Coalition—it was brilliant name. [Laughs] The No RNC Coalition, I think. No! The No RNC Clearinghouse. We started the Clearinghouse in Saint Mark's Church and Picture the Homeless was a very big participant in that.

Lehman: [00:57:56] Where literally we weren't trying to make any decisions together. We were just trying to coordinate and because we felt like we wanted to have a very broad variety of people come together—who didn't necessarily all agree, and we just wanted to coordinate. And so, Picture the Homeless helped us hold down the space. We were meeting monthly and then biweekly and then weekly, in the lead up to the RNC.

Lehman: [00:58:31] And they were—it was funny to me, because there were two Poor People's Marches...

Lewis: Yeah.

Lehman: Because there was like... I mean, I wasn't deeply in all the politics, but I felt like there was some egos that were coming in from out of town, that weren't necessarily on the same page. And so, it just seemed absurd to me that people wouldn't just respect the folks that were organizing from New York City, that sort of like had a long history here. But there were two Poor People’s Marches and in the lead up to the RNC, which is sort of a precursor to my own life—because I run a retreat center now, upstate. But I really wanted to get people to an action camp outside of the city, and just as a way to build relationships.

Lehman: [00:59:38] So, the idea was to have this Clearinghouse. And this is in part because a lot of mass actions that had happened in cities, had left city organizations in disarray because there was a lot of internal fighting. When the IMF World Bank was in D.C. and—different things over the years, we had learned that it was really hard to hold unity when these big things descended upon you. And so, the two pronged approach we came up with, was to have a clearinghouse, which in no way had to make decisions together. So, there was like space for everybody's everything, and we were just going to support each other and then to have this deeper gathering. And we pulled in folks from Picture the Homeless early on. We had two committees. We had a logistics committee and then we had a visioning committee. And Picture the Homeless played a role in the visioning committee, possibly also the logistics committee, because you guys were always down to like throw in, just to the actual labor.

Lehman: [01:00:55] But we got a space in Rosendale, New York and we were bringing maybe one hundred, or one hundred fifty people up just for this two days of spending time together and meeting and discussing, and then also partying and having fun together. And I remember, you know—we had people from like DRUM and a lot of like—a lot of organizations that we thought of as sort of hardcore organizing organizations. And it was—you know, there was a big distinction between being an activist and being an organizer back then. And definitely organizers looked down on activists. [Laughs] I don't think it’s—I think it was pretty transparent, and like "we were activists, not…"

Lehman: [01:01:52] Picture the Homeless were organizers, but Picture the Homeless—I think that's one main thing for me around Picture the Homeless that was just transparent from day one, was like—Picture the Homeless was just one of the most open hearted places, you know, that felt like there was room for everybody, and all different personalities and different walks of life. But there was—it just wasn't, there was no ego and stuck-up-ness in Picture the Homeless. And they were the real deal, so nobody could like—nobody could like shake a stick at Picture the Homeless, because they're [smiles] just more real deal than anybody else, and they also were trying to be—claim more "down-ness" and more chops, than anybody else.

Lehman: [01:02:48] And I remember Picture the Homeless actually taking a stand. There were other organizations that were trying to be—dogmatic. And Picture the Homeless was much more pragmatic and had vision, and had principles, but wasn't into dogma, in my experience—and didn't want to work with organizations that were dogmatic. But in any case, we had a really broad group of folks come up there. And Anthony and Jean came from Picture the Homeless, which was just a treat for me. I feel like I hadn't spent a lot of time with Anthony in a little while. I don't remember whether he had already moved away. I can't remember when he went, whether he was living in the city. But it was just like those were the folks that I spent most of my time with.

Lehman: [01:03:48] And I will—I have to embarrass Jean a little bit here because he was ridiculous that night. [Smiles] He got drunk [laughs] and was convinced that he could go to an ATM, and he wanted to get to an ATM on foot. And we were all like, "Jean, you'll get there tomorrow morning maybe, [laughs] if you left now, but like—there's no ATM around here." And he was standing, he was holding court in—I guess, the Jean Rice style of public speaking... But he was standing like pretty much in the middle of the firepit, while we had a fire going. And he was talking about race and how we're all the same color, six layers down—six layers down in the skin, [smiles] we're all the same color. And I just remember him like, very intently, giving speeches around—around unity from the fire pit that night, and then sleeping in a tent. We had set the tents up in the barn because it was going to rain so hard that weekend.

Lehman: [01:05:00] But it was just a really powerful experience. And I felt like there was a potential for there to be like—infighting around who's political analysis was the most revolutionary, because we definitely had like anarchists and socialists and all sorts of people there. And I feel like in that event, like in many events, Picture the Homeless played a part of just making it real. Like just shutting people up who were going to argue about [pause] sort of revolutionary rhetoric and just being like—just keeping it real.

Lehman: [01:05:51] And I feel like that sentiment was very interesting because I feel like there's people who would keep it real, from a space of just like, "Hey, none of that's important to us. And so we're just gonna - we're just organizing." You know? But that wasn't the case with Picture the Homeless. Like, Picture the Homeless had rigor around political education. They were non-dogmatic, but rigorous. And in that period of time, I started hosting, or shortly after—Institute for Social Ecology courses in New York City. And without fail, I've never run a Picture the Homeless course—I mean, an Institute for Sociology Course since that period, where some of our students weren't Picture the Homeless folks. And, to have like people who had been organizing for years, who had done a lot more than a lot of the students in the class, but like show up and be able to show up bringing what they brought—because I always had them be presenters.

Lehman: [01:07:12] But, you know, a lot of people would come in as presenters and stay for an hour, do their presentation and leave. And Picture the Homeless was like, "No, we want to learn this stuff!" And so they would always be there as students. And often you know, the students who arrived first and left last—and very engaged, asking questions.... And, you know, I was just looking through old pictures. Both in, I think 2008 or '09, we had one of these on Wall Street, in the Beaver space. And then we had more at the Brecht Forum, after Occupy Wall Street. And in both cases, we had somewhere between four and six students from Picture the Homeless—again, presenting around their theory of organizing and their history, but then just really being there to learn Social Ecology and radical political theory and ideas around direct democracy.

Lehman: [01:08:22] And I just feel like that's… It's quite unusual to have people with as much—with as much truly at stake, that as the members of Picture the Homeless did—many of them homeless, while organizing, or in different states of housed-ness. And with a lot of—a lot of experiences under their belt, both dehumanizing personal experiences and then experiences as organizers. To have that level of experience and still be able to show up with humility and openness is pretty extraordinary. Again, not surprising to me, just deepened my respect and love for the organization. And you know, people like Marcus turning so much of that into like these incredibly powerful, creative poems, being honored at galas, and...

Lehman: [01:09:37] Rob Robinson came into my world at that point, possibly through one of the Institute for Social Ecology workshops. I know Michael Premo also became close with Rob Robinson and Picture the Homeless around that time. Angel Acosta, wildly—was at one of those who's, I think of as a... There was like some interesting intersections. And Max Rameau and Take Back the Land was sort of coming into my world, and I can't remember... I must have met Max around the RNC organizing, although I can't remember whether I met him through Rob and Picture the Homeless. Quite likely, but it just sort of...

Lehman: [01:10:30] I feel like—Picture the Homeless for me, was always leading me into new spaces of learning and inquiry and political development. And Take Back the Land with this whole other movement and way of seeing space, and community, and reclamation of rights. That was really important, and here is this national movement that was starting up. But there was no question, [smiles] Picture the Homeless was already doing that work. It kind of—Picture the Homeless, I feel like, was an inspiration for that national network, and fit it like a glove.

Lehman: [01:11:26] You know, everything that was being spoken of around the reclamation of space, and the right to space was… Well, Right to the City was also coming into being too. But Take Back the Land—and again, talking about rigor. You know, Max Rameau is just a very brilliant thinker. And, I feel like the ways in which Max and Rob Robinson [pause] were bringing in these like, major public and institutional intellectuals like Marcuse, is it Peter Marcuse?

Lewis: Peter Marcuse. Mm-Hmmmm.

Lehman: Peter Marcuse, and

Lewis: Neil Smith and David Harvey.

Lehman: [01:12:39] And David Harvey... Feels like, [laughs] like, you know, a lot of grad students were killing each other to try and get these men's attention, because they're like, you know—the biggest names in leftist intellectual space—in New York, but nationally and internationally, you know? Like, "Oh, you were in David Harvey's Capital class?" But, you know, you're in David Harvey's Capital class with Pictures the Homeless! Like, you know—with Rob Robinson and other members. Again, it wasn’t like… Just the dynamic relationships of, you know, one—you could have people who have that level of organizing experience going in with a chip on their shoulder and be like, "Listen, you frickin' intellectuals—like, this is real." Or you have these intellectuals who are like, "I'm going to teach you about the things I know." But that was not what I was witnessing. I was witnessing dynamic engagement and real relationships. That is frickin' unusual.

Lewis: [01:13:47] They were good to us. We had a quote by Peter Marcuse hanging on our office in 116 [Street] and about how the, you know—"the housing market produces the housing crisis, that’s the way it's meant to work.” I'm paraphrasing—I'm mangling the quote, but they—Peter and David and others, they were also very intellectually curious and understood that they were writing about things that maybe on some level they were participating in, but also that other folks—other formations, were actually driving.

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: [01:14:26] And they wanted to be in conversation, and they wanted... And they were also fun! Like David Harvey, you know, he always wanted... You know, you go out and have Guinness with him and… We were at a party; you and I—I have… I found some pictures. We were at a party where David and Peter were there, and we're all dancing. Well, Peter wasn't dancing, he said he didn't dance, but... They really wanted that.

Lehman: Yes! That was definitely a peak moment for me. [Smiles] I was dancing with David Harvey at one of the PTH parties, and he was an amazing dancer. [Smiles] And I was like… When people talk about David Harvey, I'd be like, "Yeah. I've danced with him." [Laughs].

Lewis: Yeah! Exactly.

Lehman: [01:15:08] And I took—you know, I took his Capital class around that period. And— which was interesting, because there were people from the West Coast, you know—from the organization POWER and like big organizers that had traveled to sit in on his classes. Harmony Goldberg was in there, Jee Kim, and Picture the Homeless folks. And it was, you know—that was a mind twister. That was one of the hardest things I've ever tried to wrap my mind around. And so just, yeah. I mean, I went out once with Rob, I think a few other PTH folks, Peter.. I can't remember what we were meeting to discuss, but something—maybe it was a conference or something that we were doing? But it was, it was like a really beautiful experience to see those two worlds which don't often meet—meet in a real deep relationship. So yeah, that has been very meaningful.

Lehman: [01:16:30] And then, you know, just some of my direct action experiences. The creativity of the late nineties, I feel like always stayed with… Picture the Homeless actions were generally, like, very brilliant. [Smiles] And there's some that I can't remember, but I remember some—there tax day actions and things like that that would happen… They were just... Maybe on the steps of the library? I can't remember some of the actions, but one of my favorite all time actions that I've ever been a part of was in 2008? In the vacant lot one.

Lewis: [01:17:19] 2009,

Lehman: 2009.

Lewis: you were at both of those big takeovers. Of the vacant building, you came in construction gear and y’all were drilling big signs that Not an Alternative had made into the side of the building, or hanging them somehow. And then the lot takeover was July of 2009.

Lehman: [01:17:45] I remember that one much more vividly. Like, I remember both... I usually remember, the nerves that I had right before—like, "Oh!!! It's going to be like… Okay????... Is everyone in place?" But the lot one was very funny because, you know—in typical, and I want to talk a little bit more about the aspect of Picture the Homeless that I feel like folks... You know, you had mostly people of color, mostly Black members who were all from poor backgrounds, I would say probably—engaging in a really like loving and open way with people like me, which is just—I don't take for granted. Certainly not, that is just—yeah, it's very meaningful to me.

Lehman: [01:18:45] But, this one action [smiles] I thought was very funny, because we were invited to support the action in a way that was flagrantly flaunting our white privilege. [Laughs] And because we were in Harlem—and in some ways it's a little messed up, but it worked, and we knew what the cause was. But we basically—Not an Alternative. Becca Economopoulos and Jason [Jones], we organized a photo shoot with like—we got an actual model, and we pretended we were like makeup artists, and the dressing folks. And we didn't have a permit or anything. But again, we were like "white people". And so we went into… I can't remember what street it was on, one hundred and something.

Lewis: One fifteenth.

Lehman: [01:19:46] One fifteenth and Madison, and just set up, you know… Opened our truck and brought out like our wardrobe and set up lights and had our model there and just like, kind of had this attitude, like, no one's going to mess with us because we're like these “snotty, model photoshoot people and like, we have the right to be anywhere." And so we set up, and we were in front of a chain link fence, and so we were just basically in some ways drawing attention to ourselves by doing this ridiculous photo shoot—while people who would walk down the street would see us, but we were such a spectacle, nobody was noticing that behind us people were clipping the fence. [Laughs].

Lehman: [01:20:37] And so, you know—we did this photoshoot and then just all at once rolled this fence open and it was a—you know, that had to be a triple lot. It was a big space. And we went into this lot—you know, suddenly there was like one hundred people rolling into the lot. But then I remember Brandon, who probably had more like outdoor sense than all of us, looked down on the ground and he was like—nobody would have expected this, but he was like, "This is all poison ivy." Like the entire ground cover [laughs] was poison ivy, which hadn't been spotted, when it had been scouted, because probably nobody was thinking to look for poison ivy. But like, literally the entire lot was poison ivy, and we were about to have this big picnic and fashion show in it.

Lehman: [01:21:25] So, then the next thing was, everyone was grabbing plastic bags and just trying to rip all the poison ivy out. We had just bags and bags of poison ivy, [smiles] which I think we probably all got poison ivy anyway. But we had this fashion show—I think, made out of trash. Maybe there was maybe just a portion of it, but people risked—people, you know—locked down. I'm trying to remember the young, there was a younger woman activist who got arrested in that

Lewis: Anistla.

Lehman: action.

Lewis: Anistla Rugama.

Lehman: Anistla [smiles], she was amazing. I hope you're interviewing her. But I just remember, like… I don't know what, I just saw in people's body language, the absolute pride in doing an amazing action for Picture the Homeless and it was almost an honor to get arrested, in that moment. People just, you know—they were committed to the moment, and committed to the cause, and that's what people were down for. But that was a very powerful action.

Lehman: [01:22:43] And just in speaking of what I had mentioned—just the openness of Picture the Homeless, I had mentioned this to Lynn just earlier, but like one of the funniest moments of my entire life was I was at Bluestockings, and we were doing an anniversary. It may have been... I don't know if was a ten year anniversary of like the global justice movement. It was an anniversary of the global justice movement. And so we were doing like a—maybe it was 2009, I think it was. Maybe it was the anniversary of Seattle or something. But in any case, we were doing an anniversary at Bluestockings and so I had gotten a few speakers together, and one of them was Jean.

Lehman: [01:23:36] And so, I'm just waiting for him at Bluestockings to show up, and he walks in the door—with Susie Hermansen, who will mean nothing to most people maybe listening to the archive. But she is like somebody I—she is somebody I'd known since I was two, or three. I went to nursing school with her daughters and very much grew up with their family. But, to me is like the most preppy person—one of the most preppy people from the most preppy part of my background that I knew. You know, kind of like a tennis and soccer mom. And [laughs] suddenly she's walking into Bluestockings with Jean Rice and I'm like, "What the fuck is happening here? Like, how are these two parts of my world that are the most different corners of my entire life somehow, coming in arm, in arm?

Lehman: [01:24:38] Jean had met Susie at Union Theological Seminary, again—speaking to the rigor. You know, there's no reason that Jean needed to go to Union Theological Seminary as the activist that he was. But just the intellectual rigor of Jean Rice, who’s quite amazing—going there, what? In his sixties? Seventies?

Lewis: Yeah, he would have been—when he first started going, he would have been in his mid-sixties. We were invited to attend the founding of the Poverty Initiative,

Lehman: Oooh!

Lewis: when Reverend Liz Theoharis was a seminary student, who's now the co-chair of the Poor People's Campaign, and Willie Baptist, so...

Lehman: And Willie Baptist.

Lewis: [01:25:34] It was their idea to bring in poor people's organizations, to help shape the learning of the seminary students who were going to fan out, all over the country and world, and you know—lead faith communities, and they wanted to make sure that their knowledge was informed by being in partnership with poor people's groups. And so Jean was at that first meeting and two other Picture the Homeless folks, Tyletha Samuels, and Jeff. Some people just go by one name like Madonna—so Jeff. Jean started taking classes at Union and was very involved with the Poverty Initiative. The students, the seminary students led by Liz and Amy Gopp, became very involved with Picture the Homeless around the Potter's Field campaign, when we found out Lewis was buried there. And so, I think that that connection with Susie, and other people at... We just went to Willie's moving—goodbye party, because he just moved to Atlanta. And those connections are still very real and really important.

Lehman: [01:26:57] Yeah, I remember Willie from earlier days. And I can't remember—because he ended up running something at Watershed, like a two week program. And to me, Willie Baptist is just like a part of my political memory, through Picture the Homeless. I don't even know how. And oddly, my partner Greg organized under him when he first graduated college, in the early nineties—or in the mid-nineties in Philly. So, I think he's just sort of been this larger than life figure. But yeah, so it is amazing and just—you know, that… I would never have expected Susie Hermanson to become radicalized, and she was like talking to me about Palestine and I mean, just like—quite radical topics, and I knew that the person who could do that is Jean Rice—just by being such a loving and open presence, that he could actually create an authentic connection with somebody as completely different from him, as Susie Hermansen and just… It was just astounding to me. And, you know—I still think about that moment [smiles] because I—that's probably the closest I've ever come to just passing out, from sheer shock. [Laughs]

Lewis: [01:28:33] He's going to love that. I wanted to—you know, I want to be respectful of your time of course, but there's just so many stories. But I wanted to… If you could talk about Occupy Wall Street, and your role in Occupy Wall Street

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: and your memories of Picture the Homeless's involvement, and the different connections made there.

Lehman: So, Occupy Wall Street, as I mentioned earlier in this interview—we tried to shut down Wall Street in 1999 to—you know, massive failure. Then earlier in 2011, there was a big—like a coalition of organizations, of community based organizations in New York City. I don't actually remember whether Picture the Homeless was a part of it. I just came in for kind of the day, I was living upstate. But I believe you were.

Lehman: [01:29:39] It was like all the right organizations, the big—you know, again, organizers, not activists—but organizations that we're trying to shut down Wall Street. And people came in from all different sides and there was like big art making, and thousands and thousands of people. And like, the media didn't show up. It just was a failure—like nothing. It was like, "YAY! A whole bunch of people who all know each other, doing this action the right way." But it just like—it was like, "Phew...." It just didn't happen.

Lehman: [01:30:21] So, later that summer, David Graber reached out to me and my friend from Spain sent me something being like, "Check out this call to action for—to Occupy Wall Street." And I thought it looked ridiculous, because—you know, I just didn't connect with the actual call with the… What is the masked person? I can't even remember what that's called.

Lewis: Guy Fawkes?

Lehman: [01:30:50] The Guy Fawkes mask and just the whole thing seemed ridiculous. I was like, "Yeah, we've tried to occupy Wall Street, good luck." You know, and I knew David had reached out to me and it was just like a bunch of, like sort of anarchists. And I've always considered myself an anarchist, but more of a social anarchist. But it was like—it was a mixture of people. But there was some of like—sort of like, what I would consider more of an insurrectionist kind of flavor to some of it that… I just wasn't compelled to get involved. I was like, "Yo, you know, I can support in whatever way is needed." But I just—I was living upstate. I didn't know what to do. And then they spent the night on Wall Street, and I was like, "Oh shit, I cannot believe it worked." [Smiles] And I was like, "Greg, I have to go to the city." So, I got on a train that day and went to the city and didn't come back upstate for another two months, and you know, Greg eventually followed me into the city. But I was like, "Holy shit, like this is actually happening."

Lehman: [01:31:46] I had meant to go down there and teach classes on direct democracy and just support. I kind of thought of myself already as like kind of an elder. And the irony of being a Lehman, of the Lehman Brothers lineage and Occupy Wall Street like kind of happening after the fall of Lehman Brothers, even though, you know—my actual family hadn’t been involved in the— in Lehman Brothers in, you know—a generation or two. But, it just felt like very ridiculous. And I definitely was not going to be public, and I managed to not be public. I managed to stay out of the press for that, because I just knew that I would... Like the right wing would have had a field day with me. [Laughs].

Lehman: [01:32:36] So, I stayed as much as I could—anonymous, but got super involved in organizing and in the structure committees, and the facilitation, and the spokes councils, and… I met so many people. It was incredibly amazing in all of these ways, and it was so demoralizing, and it was like—ugly, in so many respects. Just a lot of infighting, infiltration... It was just very—too much, too fast, too big. And so, it was probably the most unhealthy movement I've ever been a part of, and one of the most important of my life.

Lehman: [01:33:32] And doing street organizing, obviously, again, Picture the Homeless had a lot more understanding of how to do an occupation than a lot of the folks that had been organizing... I know that… Blooms-berg-ville…?

Lewis: Bloomberg, yeah.

Lehman: Bloombergville had happened. I again, wasn't a part of that. But I know there was engagement in that, and relationships built. But, I didn't know hardly anyone at Occupy Wall Street. I got to know people quickly. But having folks from Picture the Homeless engaged in it felt very grounding to me. Having—and then, you know, one of the most challenging aspects of Occupy Wall Street was security, because we had like—there were actual rapists living in Zuccotti Park, two of them, I think. And that sounds insane, but that's just, you know, there were—there were all sorts of people there, and we needed actual security—security from the cops, but also security because there were rapists living at Occupy Wall Street, and fights that would break out, and things like that.

Lehman: [01:34:43] And so, we reached out to Picture the Homeless and got connected to Shadow and Mijente...

Lewis: Ñeta's. Mm-Hmmm.

Lehman: The Ñeta's, sorry. And Shadow and the Ñeta's actually made Occupy Wall Street, not self-implode, in so many respects. Because, we really were in way over our head, and I wasn't involved in a lot of those aspects of Occupy Wall Street. I was more in the nerdy side, but I was abreast of all of the challenges that were happening. And, you know—there was cause to shut us down, because of all of the crime that was happening, and the fights that were happening. And there were cops around the outer edge, kind of picking up the pieces that—not willingly. I mean, nobody in Occupy Wall Street was handing people over the cops, by any means. But there was like actual fights that were breaking out, and I think at that—in some of those moments, certainly in early days, people were just kind of like, "Well, I have absolutely no right to do it. I'm not capable of de-escalating, or actually physically subduing these fights." And so the cops would kind of—not enter, but deal with some of the situations, from my recollection at least.

Lehman: [01:36:14] And having Shadow and his crew come in there, just added an air of legitimacy to our occupation, in part because they actually knew what they were doing. They knew how to do de-escalation, and they knew how to hold people in line, and how to command respect in a way that the scraggly first-time activists, random people that happened to be holding that occupation did not.

Lehman: [01:36:44] And Picture the Homeless also participated in the political education that we did through the Institute of Social Ecology at the Brecht Forum, and in all sorts of different aspects of it. But it was again—a lot of the folks at Picture the Homeless were brand new, or were young people or were there, you know… In part, what I think broke Occupy Wall Street apart was that for some people it was a political action, like a long term political action, highlighting capitalism, and economic insecurity, and economic oppression. And for other people who were there, you know—and that's a lot of the younger folks, or more seasoned activists who were there, sort of like being like, "Oh shit, we're really getting like an international spotlight now. We can talk about our issues and people around the world are talking about economic inequality and capitalism in a way that hadn't happened before."

Lehman: [01:37:54] But for other folks who were there—they were there because it was the only place that they could get services, and get care. You know, in many ways the aspects of care that that Picture the Homeless offered people—not the services, but the care... People were coming and finding community there. But for some people it was actually not just a—it was not just a symbolic, elongated, and powerful political action. It was a lifeline.

Lehman: [01:38:26] And I felt like it was very clear early on that there were these two occupations happening, on top of each other. And in many ways, Picture the Homeless folks were the bridge between those two. And I think that if we had any ability to plan, or to have—you know, another couple of years of this movement, that's where Picture the Homeless would have been able to save that movement. It was total chaos, from start to finish. But it was interesting, because Picture the Homeless were the only folks there that actually were a living bridge for that debacle, that was Occupy Wall Street, that did change history, but caused a lot of people a lot of trauma.

Lewis: [01:39:20] You know, it's so interesting. I remember someone called me from Occupy Wall Street. I didn't know them, and they were saying that—you know, "There were a lot of homeless people there, and people didn't know what to do..." And I was like, "Well, you're in a park [laughs] and that like—they were already there.

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: And then they said... You know, but they were really trying to figure stuff out, you know? And so they said, "Well, we're starting like a social service kind of committee to see how we can help people." And I said, "Well, what other committees do you have?" And they had outreach and, you know, these… Education, different things. And I said, "Well, why are you thinking of approaching homeless people with services, and just not outreach."

Lehman: Mmmmm.

Lewis: They were like, "Well..." And so there was a lot of concern, you know—on this person's part and whoever they were kind of representing. But, there _was _clearly kind of confusion about how to deal with folks who were homeless, in that space and who—as we found at Picture the Homeless, would show up for multiple reasons, you know? Like, "Oh. Your office has air conditioning and my shelter is one hundred degrees. But, I'm going to also go to this meeting [laughs] while I'm here and wow, that's amazing. Let me get involved with that."

Lewis: [01:40:50] And so, people show up to protest in spaces for a lot of different reasons and... But, I think you—one of the things, one of the through lines with your relationship with Picture the Homeless and the organizations that you were involved with, is you were almost like—you and other people that we met, were almost like portals [smiles] to movement—that folks didn't know about, or weren't engaged in. And so, I'll never forget—and you'll enjoy this, in one of Anthony's interviews, where he said Lewis was like, "You have to come over here to this garden!" And it was Esperanza garden, and he was like… It was a frog, and there was a laptop inside...

Lewis: [01:41:41] You know, so just that people were doing that, and doing things like that, and protesting in ways that were outside of permission from the city—like, "Oh no, we're not doing a press conference with… Or a permit..." That those types of actions—I remember when you were in Seattle and Anthony was like, "That lady, that woman Brooke, is in Seattle doing all that!" You know? I think that created possibilities. Those relationships with you and a couple of other folks—and by a couple, I mean really like a handful of people in the beginning, created pathways and possibilities—those relationships. So, it was—it went both ways. It really went both ways.

Lehman: [01:42:29] That's amazing. You know, I feel like—yeah. I mean, I feel like also at Occupy Wall Street, you know, there were people being driven there outside—you know, when they were given… Let out of prison.

Lewis: Yeah.

Lehman: And I feel like people at Occupy Wall Street felt like it was like, "The cops trying to destabilize us." And I was like, "No, literally, there's nowhere else. Like, what better place for folks to go who need [smiles] support, than here?" And yet nobody knew how to offer support, or to offer… You know, everyone was out of their element. Everyone was just creating something from scratch. But I feel like it was an eye opener to a lot of folks, of just how little support there is, in the city.

Lehman: [01:43:21] You know, I feel like Occupy Wall Street—the power of it was—in many ways, I feel like the power of it shadowed the power of, or echoed the power of Picture the Homeless. Which was... You know, the General Assembly—why it was so moving to folks, in the beginning at least, was it was mainly just people coming up and getting on the mic and having—because of the people's mic, people's… Their own voice repeated into the crowd, and repeating someone's voice into the crowd is not just an amplification method, which is what the intention was, but it's a form of active listening, but active listening by a thousands of people. Like, a very powerful experience in terms of being like, "Holy shit, I'm really being heard."

Lehman: [01:44:17] And so people were just getting up and talking about how bad they felt about themselves, and how ashamed they were of their economic plight. And you had Occupy Wall Street echoing back to folks that like, "No, this is not about you. This is not your fault. This is a systemic fault. This is a systemic problem. And you're made to think that it's your problem.".

Lehman: [01:44:41] And I feel like that's what Picture the Homeless has stood for with its membership, and has vocalized for—at that point a decade—was that this is a systemic problem. This is not a problem of individuals. This is a problem of capitalism, and this is actually a problem that has been designed by capitalism, and by corporate entities and the state to actually dehumanize people and to often do that around racial lines. And, you know, for Occupy Wall Street, suddenly there are a lot of folks that I think had experienced themselves as squarely middle class or, you know—upwardly mobile in some respects, suddenly have the bottom fall out.

Lehman: [01:45:33] So, it was a very powerful and interesting moment, because I feel like that's a lot of the folks that were coming to Occupy Wall Street were people that had never experienced themselves, as having economic desperation, and the shame associated with it. And having an organization like Picture the Homeless that actually already wrote the book on that—on how to actually offer people humanity—and not just humanity, like you're a good person, like a church would—but humanity, _and here is a systemic analysis that shows you why you are experiencing this situation, _and not just a systemic analysis, but here’s a community that's going to be in action together to overturn those powers.

Lehman: [01:46:33] And that combination is unusual and just… I think that's why Picture the Homeless still exists. It's a personal, like an emotional home, and an intellectual home and a home in action, that allows people to transform shame and fear into love, community, and forward motion. And I feel like that's… I do hope that there's a book on this, because I feel like how you all organized, it's still not the norm. There's no—you know, I don't see a lot of organizations... And I've never seen a lot of organizations that have that model, and yeah—I think it's very powerful. I feel like you guys should have a term that you create, for the style of organizing that you all pioneered.

Lewis: [01:47:37] Well, you know, I really appreciate all that and I'm really moved, and I've been really moved doing all these interviews, and then the transcribing, and the listening and... It's just been incredible because, you know—the combination… One of the things that—one of the themes that has emerged is this sense of being welcoming and how important that was. And that really comes from Anthony and Lewis and early people joining Picture the Homeless, like Emily Givens and Jean. This idea that we're not—we're not going to be this system, and exclude people because they're “inconvenient.”

Lewis: [01:48:28] And so sometimes that means, you know, dealing with things [smiles] like Jean, as you mentioned, being drunk in the fire pit. You know, we're not getting rid of people—we're in community with people. And of course, there are norms and—you know, there are like meeting rules and things like that. But, it was about welcoming people in, so homeless folks, but then also allies. And you know, a lot of the things that you said actually were very central to how we related to each other—like being pragmatic! Like okay, Jean would always give speeches, like, "I'm not an anarchist… And I'm not a communist…" And I'm going, "Speak for yourself!" You know? But… [Laughs]

Lewis: [01:49:21] I think it was really important to be able to build. So, Lewis was building with gardeners and the National Action Network—at the same time. Anthony talks about the squatters coming like, "This is what we've been waiting for, like the homeless revolution!" And at the same time, being in spaces with these kind of 501c3 community organizing groups. All of those things helped build Picture the Homeless, and sharpened all of our analysis.

Lewis: [01:49:59] And so, we're calling the event we're having, to kind of… The coming out party for this oral history project—the theme is resistance relationships. Because those kind of relationships, they can be friendships, you can become lovers, you can become friends, you can be family. But they're all—we meet each other because we're resisting. And so, there's also that shared value that adds a depth to it and a—I think, an urgency and meaning. And those things are important, you know? Those things are so important because if we don't believe those things can happen, then we lose hope, you know?

Lehman: [01:50:47] And I want—I mean, I think the last thing I want to touch on, which you may not, in any way exclude from my interview... [Smiles] I mean, I think it's interesting that you are doing these interviews, because if you weren't doing these interviews, the majority—a good portion of the interviews would be about you. And I know that that's not your style. But, in every possible way Picture the Homeless would not have survived without you being in the center of it. And I know that's—you know, you deflect that.

Lehman: [01:51:28] And there are lots of really powerful—there are a lot of really powerful people who are part of Picture the Homeless. But I do believe that movements need—they need a focal point, and a heart and a center, and there usually is an individual there. And I think, like it or not, you are that individual, for Picture the Homeless. That your steadiness and humility, and your ability to lead without lead without dominating. You know, you were the ED, but you were also leading from... You were leading together, you were creating the space for people to develop their leadership, and lead with you. And yet, there is absolutely no way that if you had left the organization, and gone and done something else, it probably would have dissipated.

Lehman: [01:52:31] There's something about you providing the sense of home and center… I just think it's honest, and if you downplay that part, you're actually not doing justice to understanding the model of Picture the Homeless. Because you were essential to that model. And I think that there often… There often is one individual, if not one or two, that are that focal point—the magnetism that are holding things together. And things wobble when that magnetism goes away. But I think that—however like "unprofessional it is" quote unquote, to mix home and family life with your organization—the fact that you really did. I mean, you had all of those lines blurred a lot, you know—with different people living in your home. You know, there was not—you didn't have a professionalism that was cold.

Lehman: [01:53:51] I think people knew that when the shit hit the fan for them, that you were there. And the fact that you're doing this project now is really meaningful, because I'm talking to the person who lived all the stories. There's not a story that someone's telling that you haven't heard or weren't physically there for, and that's not incidental. And I think, you know, I wonder… You know, in your story—I know that you always—you haven't always had stability in your own life, in terms of economic stability. I feel like there were times that were difficult for you. But whatever— you have had stability, in a really deep way. You know, even I'm looking at a home that I went to, many years ago. Most people sort of—you wouldn't necessarily recognize where they are in their spaces, fifteen years later.

Lehman: [01:54:56] But I feel like there's something important, even in talking about an organization—for and by homeless people, that you were also involved in as somebody who, for the majority of that was not. And that, I think it can be poetic sometimes to write those aspects of your history out, as incidental, or unimportant, or that don't exactly fit with the whole picture. But I think you have to figure out how to put yourself in this story in a very central way, because everybody knows that you were the heart of that organization. And you brought a lot of other hearts in with you, and created the space for heart to grow in a community, but it was—you were the magnetic center, and held people, and created an atmosphere of respect and care that was infectious, and that changed a lot of people's lives. So, I hope you figure out how to not discount yourself because—and I know it's going to be awkward for you to do, but it would be an inauthentic and a false story if you don't do that, in my opinion.

Lewis: [01:56:21] You know, I'm like, holding back tears, but I know—I know that's true, in a lot of ways. And I remember Max Uhlenbeck used to call Jean and I the heart and soul of Picture the Homeless and for many years, Jean and I would be front and center and... You know, to me, Picture the Homeless was one of the most important things I've ever done in my whole life. One of the challenges with our origin story, when, you know... Is that we kind of—and rightly so, really always uplifted Lewis and Anthony, because if they hadn't stood up, I wouldn't have met them. So, there wouldn't have been any Pictures the Homeless. But Anthony interviewed me for this project. He wanted to interview me, and it was almost like a therapy session [smiles] for us because we—he kept asking me questions, like about when he left, and then giving me credit... And we had a conversation that we never had, but we had it on record. And he kept saying, "I want to set the record straight." But I do think the reason that we're doing this is not just to document a history and preserve it, but to offer lessons and we do have to talk about how the organization really did grow, and who was there, and who did what, and what happened.

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: Or else

Lehman: I do love the heart and soul… Heart and soul is great because, you know—Jean's power and his—as an orator, as an organizer, as a thinker... Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it was—you were a dream team.

Lewis: [01:58:21] It means so much to me that Anthony is really so involved in this—telling this story, also, like... It's very healing in a lot of ways, like a... And it helps us to understand what we did too, you know?

Lehman: Mmmmm. That's great.

Lewis: We can go through life doing, doing, doing... But if we don't reflect, we—it's just blur. But I'm gonna let you go. I'm grateful, I'm probably going to have a lot of highlight in red font of names that I'm not sure I'm spelling correctly, if I can't find the correct spelling.

Lehman: Okay. [Smiles]

Lewis: But thank you Brooke, for all of

Lehman: Thank you. This is so fun for me.

Lewis: this, all the years, all the love. I'm very grateful.

Lehman: Will you come up and visit?

Lewis: I promise! [Smiles]

Lehman: But come up while it's sunny and gorgeous out, come swimming, come... You know, we have a tiny house. Yeah.

Lewis: I would love that, very much.

Lehman: Yeah.

Lewis: Alright. Bye.

Lehman: Yeah, please do. Alright, bye.

[End of Interview]