Betty Yu

Lewis: [00:00:00] Good afternoon.
 
Yu: Hello!
 
Lewis: This is Lynn Lewis interviewing Betty Yu for the Picture The Homeless Oral History Project. And it's January 20th, 2023—sounds crazy. How are you?
 
Yu: I'm good. I'm good. I'm a little tired and slow, but I'm happy to be here with talking with you. It's the highlight of the day, so certainly. But, yeah! I'm good.
 
Lewis: [00:00:29] Okay. So Betty, we're going to get to know you a little bit for folks that are listening or reading this, could you share just where you're from and some things about your family life that you'd like to share?
 
Yu: Sure. So my name is Betty Yu, and I was born and raised in New York City. In Sunset Park, Brooklyn to be exact, which is a—for those who don't know about, you know… Folks in New York City are very borough pride and very specific neighborhood pride, proud rather. But yeah, I am from Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and it's a Chinese/Latinx neighborhood and working class folks. The neighborhood—growing up in the neighborhood really shaped me politically and personally obviously, and me being a community oriented, community minded and social justice oriented person. So, I always like to kind of start with that.
 
Yu: [00:01:34] So I come from a low-income working class background. My parents are garment workers who migrated here in the early 1970s. Long story short, I had actually different iterations of my family in the U.S. due to the Chinese Exclusion Act, which was really the first kind of legislation that really barred an entire nationality—an entire group of people from a country, from coming to the U.S. for sixty years.
 
Yu: [00:02:10] A lot of them couldn't stay and build roots. They had to go back because of their cities were being burned down, especially on the West Coast. Their particular communities, or for fear of their life... A lot of just white supremacy and xenophobia. So, I like to sort of give that background in that it's really… I'm really four—there's been four generations of my family in the U.S. But, my parents immigrants, if that makes any sense, from Hong Kong and China.
 
Yu: [00:02:43] And they work in the garment industry. They've worked in the garment industry for thirty-five, forty years until they retired. And yeah, making less than minimum wage very often, working long hours—even in unionized shops. In the 90s, the union UNITE—the Garment Workers Union, ILGWU then, you know—joined with UNITE... Was not very effective at that time so the wages really plummeted, and my parents had to work longer and longer hours to make ends meet. So growing up, I saw how that devastated me—my family dynamic personally, and as a community. My parents were often—their bodies were like debilitated and they developed a lot of different occupational health ailments, to the point where my mom actually had to retire early because she had really severe back and leg pains from sewing. And my dad is like partially deaf from being a button operator for like thirty-five years. 
 
Yu: [00:03:50] So you know, that shaped me. It impacted me incredibly. And so, when I was a teenager, I got involved with community organizing. My sister Virginia, who actually passed away about eleven years ago... But she had a huge impact on my life when she was in college, and I was in high school. She got involved with the organization called Chinese Staff and Workers Association, which is a workers center—one of the first worker centers in the country, that was started in the ‘70s. Anyway, they were organizing garment and restaurant workers and construction workers—many of them who were shut out of the mainstream unions, and they had to start their own worker centers, or their own independent unions and organize for workplace rights, really basic, basic rights.
 
Yu: [00:04:40] And it was through that, that I really started to understand organizing and the difference between, you know—organizing and service and advocacy, right—self-organizing and people who are most directly impacted and oppressed being the ones who are leading the organizing and being the agents of change for themselves and not relying on advocates or not relying on even the legal system, to do it for them. But you know—that really the power really comes from the grassroots, from the bottom up. And that's really, really where I learned a lot of this.
 
Yu: [00:05:17] And so eventually my mother got involved as an activist. She was a garment worker who became a leader in the organization. I was involved in the organization for about fifteen years. I was on staff for a little while, and I learned a lot during that time in the late ‘90's, early 2000s, right when I was in college. I was helping them—working with them to produce videos. So, training and working with an intergenerational mix of undocumented and documented workers. So, teenagers who had just come to the U.S. with their parents and were working at that time maybe in the restaurant industry, along with older folks who were like garment workers or restaurant workers.
 
Yu: [00:06:07] And at that time we got a grant from Manhattan Neighborhood Network for several… I think we were grantees maybe for like five or six years. They had a community media grant to help community groups create their own shows and their media and their own video shows, and edit them and put them on television—on their channels. And so I had just learned about it. I was like nineteen maybe at the time. And so, I already was studying film and photography. So I got really excited about that project and worked with them to develop these monthly shows, and they ended up winning an award for one, not the one I worked on [smiles] with them, but prior to me being involved they won some awards, which was amazing.
 
Yu: [00:06:50] And I started to realize how meaningful this TV show was for the entire community. Because the press in Chinatown—the ethnic media, the Chinese language press—all the four dailies are really controlled by a powerful elite of like Chinatown bosses at the time. Even the Tongs, which were the gangs at the time when they were really powerful in the ‘80s and ‘90s, along with… You know—colluded, colluding with the police and employers.
 
Yu: [00:07:20] So this like, “axis of evil” I like to call it… But this collusion of these business elite, along with the police and employers, really controlled the newspapers. So they were—they would really contribute to blacklisting people who—workers who spoke out. Their slant in the papers was always a pro employer, a pro-boss, anti-worker kind of angle, and their stories... And then the U.S. media was not any better. The English language media was not any better.
 
Yu: [00:07:53] In fact, in 1994 there was a New York Times—at the time, New York Times front page article in the Metro section by a Chinese woman who basically called Chinese people, “happy slaves” because she went undercover into a sweatshop and she saw—you know, Chinese bosses “taking care of their own” right? That kind of like, ethnic kind of racialized exploitation, right? That like, “It's okay because it's one of your own.” Which was absolutely horrifying and disgusting.
 
Yu: [00:08:23] And so I realized that the TV show, and them putting out their own newsletter in Chinese and English and their own TV show, was so—such an important, big part of their work—their communications work, their organizing work… Because it was something that they could control and define one hundred percent and put it out there to challenge the dominant media that was not very worker friendly. And I think that really shaped me to this day, but in particular at that time, of how powerful it is to provide the media making tools, the cultural production tools, for people to tell their own stories, in their own voice and in their own words. So, I would say that that was very—along with other things, but since have not been involved with them anymore.
 
Yu: [00:09:13] Now I'm doing a lot of work with CAAAV: Organizing Asian Communities and a group that I co-founded, Chinatown Art Brigade, doing cultural production as well to advance social justice, particularly housing rights, and anti-gentrification work. But all that to say that, you know, as a teenager and in early college years, understanding the power of media making—that really shaped me to—you know, shaped me to this day. Yeah. But there's a whole lot that I didn't say there, [laughs] but it's fine. I'll stop there.
 
Lewis: [00:09:51] You know, that's so interesting that you brought all that in, because I don't—I actually, my first memory of you is when we met you at Manhattan Neighborhood Network. But [smiles] I wanted to ask you what your first memory is of Picture the Homeless, maybe… I don't know if you knew about Picture The Homeless before you met the group—or, do you recall?
 
Yu: [00:10:21] Yeah, gosh—it was so long ago. I'm trying to remember. I know, I saw the questions and I was like… I saw them initially a couple of weeks ago and then again today, and I was like, “Oh wow.” I have a horrible memory. But, I do remember being—like, once I met everyone, I was like—captivated and you know, I was like, I was… What's that, oh that stupid movie—Jerry Maguire, right? Like, “You had me at hello.” Kind of? Anyways, a similar feeling. But I think it was like 2002 or 3. I can't remember. It was like probably when you had just started organizing, I think? Or maybe the organization was maybe a year or two old, I think? I could be wrong.
 
Yu: [00:11:03] But, I think that I definitely had heard about the organization. I knew about the organization, and it was because I was actually at that time, so long ago, [smiles] I was actually on the community funding board of North Star Fund for a couple of years. Is that right? I was definitely at the North Star community funding board for like five years, but I think it overlapped. So, I had known about Picture The Homeless's work, and I know that when I was—before I became the director much later, we were all—so the staff was all on the same page about doing proactive outreach, because I think for a while we had just been relying on whatever groups—you know, responded to us. And so I am pretty sure, I could be wrong, but Picture The Homeless is one group that I learned about through the North Star Fund, and in fact I reached out to almost all the groups that were based in Manhattan that I knew about through the North Star Fund, about collaborating and possibly starting with a TV show, and asking them to apply for a community media grant and all that.
 
Yu: [00:12:13] So, it was probably 2003 and I believe we—you know, I think we usually… What we did in the past was, we'd have an orientation first before launching into the workshop, the camera workshops. And I just remember meeting folks and just really being inspired immediately and obviously, I remember meeting Jean, I remember meeting—I think someone named John? Which—I think his name was John. I'm not sure. And a couple—Dawn, I believe her name was? And Mike, maybe?
 
Lewis: Yep.
 
Yu: I can't remember if that—if I'm correct in those names at all.
 
Lewis: Yeah, they were a couple.
 
Yu: [00:12:56] And a few other people. And I was really struck by how open folks were—with their stories. And I remember the pride that they had in terms of being a part of the organizing work and their analysis, you know? I think, from what I can remember—we were in a conference room. Later on, we moved to the third floor and did workshops from this open space. But, I think we were in the conference room.
 
Yu: [00:13:21] And I remember, you know—you know, obviously kind of… Starting as a—doing activist community organizing work as a high school student, I guess for me then, that's the way to facilitate things is always to have folks introduce themselves, and talk about themselves. And so I think we did that. I just remember learning a lot about people from—within the first like ten minutes of having everyone talk about, you know, how they got involved.
 
Yu: [00:13:49] And I think I probably asked, which is what I—you know, in the workshops we ask like, “What, you know—why do you want to learn camera production and editing. Like, what kind of—do you have ideas and stories that you want to tell?” And so I remember, you know—going around the room and I remember immediately Jean was like the comedy sort of relief, of the group. I can't remember what it, you know—like a… I think he made some funny comment about not being in front of the camera, but being behind, because of how he looked or something? I don't know. I just remember him being making really funny remarks and then being like, “Okay, he's the jokester here.” But also very serious, right? Like obviously, a very thoughtful person, a lot going on, you know—but also like, knowing when to like—bring levity to a situation.
 
Yu: [00:14:41] And there were like at least—I want to say like, ten to twelve people there. And I'm trying to remember when we—I met initially… I don't know if Will was a part of the initial group. He might have been. I can't remember, now. But anyway, there was a big group of—it was a good number of folks and yeah, and then from that point on you know, I remember folks just saying things like wanting to… You know, especially at that time, I think maybe Bloomberg had taken over , or was it still Giuliani? I can't remember now. Probably Bloomberg, and his whole sort of—his whole nonsense that he was continuing from Giuliani.
 
Yu: [00:15:20] And I remember people talking about the civil rights campaign—but that might have been later on, but maybe articulated as a civil rights campaign. But I, you know, from what everyone was saying around, you know—sort of obviously the criminalizing homeless folks and just existing and being on the street and folks wanting to like, tell their own stories and particularly telling stories about how there is an organization basically that is doing organizing, right—from the bottom up… And sort of principles around like self-determination and around policy change—again, from the bottom up.
 
Yu: [00:16:01] And it being something that… You know, it was the first time that I had even thought about to be honest—personally, was a powerful moment for me because when you think about homeless folks, you can—when you talk about organizing and I've been very familiar with—you know, organizing and analysis around organizing and power mapping, all these things. But homeless folks—who are so marginalized, often like sex workers and other folks who are at-the-margins-of-the-margins are often never thought about.
 
Yu: [00:16:34] When we talk about organizing and… You know, homeless folks is—I feel like one of the groups that are the marginalized of the marginalized, right? We—we often don't think about them being agents of change themselves. And I have to say that that's something I never really thought about deeply, until I encountered the organization, probably through North Star—North Star Fund, and reading about the organization and then meeting you all, meeting the folks. 
 
Yu: [00:17:06] And obviously it sounds corny, but putting the story and the face to the issue... Putting a human face on the issue was right—it was very impactful for me. It was, definitely left me with a really powerful impression of the power that folks have, particularly homeless folks, to really organize and demand policy change and demand change, right?
 
Yu: [00:17:34] The other thing I remember being really, really struck by and moved by, is what some of the—what folks shared around the conditions in the shelters. I remember hearing about that, and that was—that was really something that was… Intellectually, you know—you hear about it, you read about it… And then to talk to folks that are living in such conditions but are resilient and are fighting and are [pause] not… You know, we often**… **It's so easy to feel beaten down and give up on life, I think—to give up on life, it’s that's like—not saying it’s the easy way out. I don't want to say that.
 
Yu: [00:18:22] But the positive spirit, I guess is what I'm looking for. The hopeful and positive spirit that everyone communicated in these different ways—I was very, very struck by. Because I know from my own path of organizing, when you talk to garment workers and other folks who live in tenement buildings and you know—a similar thread of like hopefulness, right? But also, it's just so easy to just… One little thing—it's so easy to go down that rabbit hole. And yeah, the fact that people were joking and laughing and, you know—able to keep hope in the center of everything and that there's faith and that faith—I don't mean, I'm not religious, but faith that as a group, you know—faith in the power of organizing, of people organizing together for change, was very palpable to me. And I remember in that first couple of months, working with you all in the workshops and getting to know folks, you know—through the training, right? Because a big part of why I loved to do the training was to get to know people, you know—get to know people throughout, through that process. So yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:19:44] You know, it's so interesting hearing you say that because on the other side of it right? One of the things I remember Jean joking about is how much the camera costs. And so Jean was in and out of being street homeless. He was still picking up cans, but he had a place to stay. But John and Mike and Dawn were all still sleeping outside. And so your respect, right? Of folks as part of the group, right? So an individual homeless person, just going through their day in New York City is not going to encounter that kind of respect. Or somebody saying, “Here, hold this three-thousand dollar camera.” [Laughs] You know? And so it was very powerful, I think—for folks as a group to meet you and for you to listen and trust that folks had a vision and could actually make something powerful, that we—that's where we started with you. That was our relationship.
 
Lewis: [00:20:56] And that was, as you mentioned, very early on in the organization. And most of those folks were members of the Civil Rights Committee. And so media and stigma and how stigmatizing images of people create this cover for punitive policies, right? Like, “Oh, they're criminals so that's why we need police, to control them.” And so having the opportunity to change media narratives was really, really important to everyone. And they took—they took that very seriously. And you created the space and the vibe for that, I think—to happen.
 
Yu: [00:21:47] Mmmm. That's nice to hear, yeah. Now I'm remembering about Jean, every single time—you're right. Jean was like—I remember he was the last to get certified. And he would even joke about it. He was like, “I know I'm not going to get certified.” Because I remember one time he would—he's so funny. You're right, the first thing he said when he saw the camera—was like, “Oh, my God.” And he asked me how much it was. I was like, “Well, I think it's like three thousand dollars?” He's like, “Oh my God!” [Laughs] He was just like, “Are you going to have me hold it?” I'm like, “You'll be fine. You're going to be fine.” [Smiles]
 
Yu: [00:22:15] What was really funny—one time when he mounted the camera and he was looking through the lens part, you know—thinking that that was the viewfinder. And I—it was hilarious. I was like… He's like, “See! You're gonna trust me with this thing?” And I'm like, “Yeah! You'll be fine.” And so, eventually I think he got it, how to put it on…” Like you know, as a group. And my thing was always in training, right? Like, you're going to be… I understood that this was a part of the organizing and the collective process of creating something, together. So I was like, “Jean, you're never going to be alone. You're always going to be with other people, right? So you don't ever have to feel like you're going to operate this damn thing alone... Like, that doesn't seem like that's the DNA of your—of the organization. Like, you're always going to support each other.” So, I think eventually—like, I think people helped him out as a group, but he was joking because he was like… I think it took like a few tries for him to get certified by us, you know—whatever that meant, so you could take out the camera. But it was hilarious. It was very funny.
 
Yu: [00:23:15] But I remember some people being really, really great at it! Like, I remember Mike was really good at the camera. I remember John was really good at like messaging and like… You’re reminding me now—because we crafted—you know, obviously talking with you and the leadership of like, “How do you want to craft these shows?” Or even at a workshop, in the workshopping period, I remember there were like myths that maybe you had all put out, right—already… Like busting them or, what do you call it? Like myth busting of certain types of homeless folks. I remember that being like a part of one of the workshops where we talked about, “Okay, so what are they.” Right? It's like, “What do they put out? The mainstream? What do they put out as images of homeless people and then how do you combat that with your own image, of your own story?'
 
Yu: [00:24:02] And I remember folks having like strong opinions about it. I remember John being really, really good at crafting like messages. I can't remember exactly what it was. I just remember him being really, really thoughtful about, “Okay, these are the images that we need to put out, to like combat that. And then I think they… And then someone named Charlie? I think is that Charles, or Charlie? Or, I think that was his name—older man with a beard?
 
Lewis: Yeah. Charlie—Charlie worked on the Potter's Field campaign.
 
Yu: [00:24:37] Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So he overlapped, because then I know at one point there was another round of folks that were being trained and Lyle had facilitated some of that. But I think he worked more closely with Lyle. But I remember him also overlapping with some of the workshops. And he was he was really funny too, actually. He was, I just remember him—his laugh. But I don't—again, sometimes I don't remember the substance [laughs] of just… But, so yeah. So you know, I remember those early days, early years of the workshops that we did. We did, I think we did a few, over the years, new groups of PTH members would come in, and get trained.
 
Yu: [00:25:23] And the shows you know, it's… I hope that—so when I left, long story short—when I left MNN—on not very good terms, because some folks I was supporting… I was part of the unionizing effort and then I became a manager, and I was still supporting union efforts, but clearly they wanted me out. But, I knew that that they were going to get rid of the community media grant and program. So I was totally freaked about all the tapes because I just didn't know what they were going to do with it, like these hundreds and hundreds of tapes.
Yu: [00:25:56] So, we had—I had interns and I tried to get them to try to copy as much as we could and Picture the Homeless shows were obviously were some of the ones where I'm like, we have to make sure we… You know, I'm one of those people where I'm like, we have to archive it. I don't know what they're going to do with it. I'll just be straight up. I mean, the organization is just not what it was at all. MNN is just not what it was, at all. So I do have some of those programs that I rescued. I don't know what happened to the archives. 
 
Yu: [00:26:26] But, you know—really powerful, powerful stuff. I mean, there were a number of… I remember the one from the sleep-out. The one, you know—with just interviews, of folks interviewing each other. The one from Potter's Field... I mean, those are so powerful that I think that people who—you know, we've shown them, you know—so our department, we did something called Community Media Review. So every—was it once a month, we would do like a half hour show, or an hour—I'm sorry, an hour show of highlights.
 
Yu: [00:27:01] And I remember we got feedback from folks about PTH's pieces—quite a bit, because I don't think people are used to seeing homeless folks in that way, right? So you have a stereotype, right? That they look a certain way, they talk a certain way—so on, so forth. And to show folks in this light of like—extremely smart and [pauses] thoughtful and actually critiquing the system and understanding the conditions and what has to change in order for folks to achieve the goals and to change the system—end homelessness, and all that. Like, understanding it systemically.
 
Yu: [00:27:50] I think that folks were like, “Wow! This is like the first time we've actually seen this.” I mean like, more than once—even within the staff of folks, within MNN. I mean, even outside because—you know, folks are used to, “Okay, there's Coalition for the Homeless…” And there’s these organizations—advocacy groups. Of course, there's a place for advocacy groups, but this was very different. And so I think people were really, really inspired by PTH and the work they were doing because it was so unique. Something we've never—I've never seen before, you know? So.
 
Lewis: [00:28:28] Yeah. You know, you're reminding me when Bloomberg, after his first year in office, he gave himself a report card
 
Yu: Mmmm.
 
Lewis: and then a bunch of grassroots groups were like, “Oh, no, no, no.” [Laughs] And gave him a report card. And John had the camera from MNN.
 
Yu: Oh! 
 
Lewis: We have a beautiful photo of John with the camera because he connected it to when he was still married and had his children, and they had a video camera. So he had used it.
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: And so, and liked that. And so he really enjoyed stepping into that role.
 
Lewis: [00:29:12] And we ended up, you know—for us, it was quite overwhelming having to produce [laughs] a show
 
Yu: I know.
 
Lewis: once a month. And then we would sit around the computer... It reminded me of how you talked about work that you did with Chinese Staff. Where we would sit around—the people that worked on that issue, around the computer and say, “Oh yeah, keep this. But no, get rid of that.” And then there would be debates. [Laughs] And so it—it's just I think, signals how important it was to our work
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: to create our own media.
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: [00:29:56] And—and to… For people that, most of us, who had no idea how to use any of that editing software or any of that, I think really speaks to—you know, it's—it’s like a testimony to the power of that program that you worked in, that making media making accessible
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: to folks who were excluded and targeted by media. And then just the technical piece of it, you know, it wasn't easy.
 
Yu: Uh-huh.
 
Lewis: Especially for some of us, it was very hard. So, your patience [laughs] and welcoming were really important. And I think if—you know, is just—in and of itself, it's a lesson.
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.
 
Lewis: There are a lot of lessons there.
 
Lewis: [00:30:48] I wanted to ask if you have any memories of coming to the office and what that was like?
 
Yu: Yeah, I was trying to remember, you... You all were in several different places, and so I'm just trying to remember now. Am I mis-remembering that you all were in the Bronx at some point? You were
 
Lewis: Yeah, we were in a house in the Bronx
 
Yu: Yes.
 
Lewis: on Morris.
 
Yu: And there was a few East Harlem spots, right? If I'm not misremembering.
 
Lewis: Yeah, we were in, on 116 [Street]. I think that was when you, you actually brought us the computer that had the
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: FileMaker Pro, you brought us some equipment.
 
Yu: Right! Was it, wait... Was it near where CVH was?
 
Lewis: Yeah, it was across the hall. We were there for
 
Yu: Across the hall! Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. I remember now.
 
Lewis: [00:31:47] So do you—do you recollect any of
 
Yu: Yeah. Some, yeah. I remember—I think I visited you all in the Bronx, 116th [Street] and then the other space where it was like a storefront. So, I just don't remember the sequence of like, you know—what came after the other. But I do remember… God, I'm trying to remember. But this distinct memory I have—and it's probably not the first time that I visited, but the distinct memory I have is the ground floor space. That's probably like your third or fourth space. I'm not even sure. But I don't know if it was for… It was after an event, or before an event? I don't really remember now.
 
Yu: [00:32:32] But, I remember being… There was—it was _really lively, _and the backyard was open for some event, I think? Maybe that's what it was. It was a backyard; it was very lively. There were picnic tables. There was maybe someone doing music, I can't remember. And then there was a little program, maybe you spoke and some other folks… But the whole space was just so inviting and warm. And I think on the side you were showing on a computer or maybe on a monitor, some videos, like PTH videos that you all produced for MNN. Because I remember people seeing them or watching them and commenting on them. And I remember like Jean, like being like, “Yeah, that's our group!” You know, being proud of it, which was awesome, you know?
 
Yu: [00:33:22] And that's probably one of the first times I met Marcus, I think. So, it might have been on the latter—you know, in the more recent past. That's probably one of the first times I met Marcus and talked to him for a really long time about stuff. Will, I remember having long conversations with him—just trying to remember like, some of the women—maybe DeBoRah or Maria maybe? Some of the folks that I remember, I believe that I more recently had met in the last like maybe ten years or something like that—and having really good conversations. But they weren't a part of the core group, the core group that I trained, at least in the video. And I think we had talked about—maybe they had asked about—you know, we had always talked, “Oh let's do some more training…” Or something, you know—that kind of thing. I know that didn't quite materialize.
 
Yu: [00:34:15] But yeah, I remember that very fondly because I just remember so many people being there… You know, a mix of supporters and leaders from the organization and members and… But there's probably a few other times before that, like you said—when we dropped off the equipment and we did like a set up, I think—of the Final Cut Pro, of the editing stuff.
 
Yu: [00:34:39] And I remember us hooking stuff up and then I don't remember exactly if we did the training—but then I think that at that point you all were trained. There were a number of people that were trained in Final Cut. I do remember that. And then we dropped off the stuff because of the grants, the equipment grants. It's all—that part is so vague to me because I remember that time—just to get equipment to people, you know… It's kind of crazy. Because I know CVH at one point also got a grant, [smiles] so I'm getting it all, like kind of like, “Ah!” In my brain—all kind of muffled up. What's the word? Like… Confused. But I do remember distinctly coming up to the space on the second floor, right? It wasn't the ground floor where CVH was, I think? And setting up the equipment—I mean with PTH, yeah—with you all. And then the ground floor space. I remember very, very well. Only once—I feel like I was in the—I feel like it was maybe a really quick thing. I don't remember. That's a long, long time ago. But I do remember being in the space. [Laughs] Was it one of the first spaces that you all were in?
 
Lewis: [00:35:52] We were—we were at Judson first, and then we went to 116. [Street]
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmm. 
 
Lewis: And then we went to the Bronx, and then we came back to 126. [Street]
 
Yu: When you were in the Bronx was that in like the mid-2000s, or in the early 2000s? Or in the 2010s or the
 
Lewis: It was towards the later.
 
Yu: Yeah, okay.
 
Lewis: So, like when we did the big like—takeovers and stuff
 
Yu: Yeah, Yeah.
 
Lewis: that was—we were in the Bronx then.
 
Yu: Okay. Okay.
 
Lewis: [00:36:27] One of the—one of the things that we did with those short films, really—the ones that we ran on television was, we submitted them to the Havana Film Festival.
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: And they accepted them. So they were shown in the Havana Film Festival.
 
Yu: I did not know that. That amazing!
 
Lewis: Yeah, it's somewhere in the
 
Yu: Maybe I knew that, and I forgot.
 
Lewis: [00:36:59] Yeah. And—and [laughs] you know, for the image of the U.S., right? It's not the image that people want to—you know, our government and the people that love capitalism, certainly don't think about homelessness as a kind of a logical outcome of capitalism and the housing market. But the Havana Film Festival, they sure did. And they ran several of those short films there.
 
Yu: Oh wow.
 
Lewis: And they still have a lot of power for people. They're still up on YouTube—like shorter segments. And we've used The Potter's Field one recently working with the Union of the Homeless
 
Yu: Mmmmm.
 
Lewis: and Willie Baptist and them. So they're still–
 
Yu: Oh, wow.
 
Lewis: Yeah. So, there's still resonating. You know, once you make something like that, it's—it's always there. [Smiles] So. So you know that. One of the other
 
Yu: That's good to know. I'm so glad, yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:38:09] Yeah! And so some of the other collaborations that we did with you, which was in the more recent past, was the State Department of the Arts.
 
Yu: Uh-huh.
 
Lewis: Could you talk a little bit about that event and how that came to be and what it was?
 
Yu: Yeah. So. So the U.S. Department of Arts and Culture, which I'm not really involved with anymore, but 2015 was when they launched themselves, and it's like—you know, it's a nonprofit effort. So it's, it's really an agency that should exist but doesn't. And so that's the whole existence of USDAC. And I remember it has to really, really articulate… Especially with radical left groups, which totally makes sense like, “Who are you?” I mean, folks that I knew, right? I didn't have to like… There was that understanding, there was that respect, or that trust, rather. But other folks were confused by like, “Why are you involved with this?” I'm like, “No, no, no, no. That's the whole point.”
 
Yu: [00:39:08] Anyway, in 2015 I was—I became the cultural agent. [Laughs] You know, a made-up term you know, not a obviously… A made-up a term for this—for the group. And one of the first things I did was organize this huge event that was at— I think it's Saint Peter's church? That actually Ravi Ragbir back in the day had all the connections right, with the churches and he hooked it up for us on 53rd and Lexington. [Avenue] I believe around there. And so we did this event around the idea—like imagining de-gentrified futures. Like, what would housing justice look like when we actually achieve what we envision and want to fight for. And you know, all these groups came out. Folks doing anti-gentrification work… I know PTH came out strong with folks and then, you know—I just had this sort of idea of doing much more neighborhood specific events.
 
Yu: [00:40:13] And so I think that event that we did was a little bit later, a couple years later, but this—it was a part of the USDAC… Had something called, it was a series that they were doing for a couple of months called “Dare to Dream” or, I'm sorry, “Dare to Imagine” rather. “Dare to Imagine.” So, along the same lines, that sort of theme of like radical imagination and sort of, you know—daring to dream what sort of… I hate the word utopia, but for lack of a better term—what a sort of utopian future would look like where homelessness does not exist? And we have the abundance of you know, housing and things. So I think that for me—naturally I thought of Picture The Homeless as like one group of folks who have been doing this work for so long, right?
 
Yu: [00:41:04] Because we often know what we're fighting against. But you know—and of course, folks who are doing the day to day organizing, that's what you're up against. And of course, you're going to be dealing with the day to day of it. But then using that as a way to think about, you know, in a revolutionary way, what are we actually ultimately fighting for? What's the end goal? What's that future look like? I think Picture the Homeless, and a number of other groups have been articulating and envisioning that, and that's been part of their mission and work for a long time.
 
Yu: [00:41:38] And so I remember I reached out to you. And at that time was also working closely with Julian from when he was at Brotherhood Sister Soul, and doing some similar events with him and his young folks in Harlem. But anyway, that was kind of all around the same time. But I reached out to you all about doing something, and I know that—I think it was when all… What was happening under the 125th [Street]
 
[Audio is interrupted here due to a poor internet connection but there’s reference to under the Metro North train station at 125th Street]
 
Yu: [where folks] were criminalized basically. 
 
INTERRUPTION while we turn off our cameras and try and restore audio connection]
 
Lewis: [00:42:06] You were talking about, Julian Terrell and...
 
Yu: Oh! Okay gotcha. Okay.
 
Lewis: The police harassment on 125th Street
 
Yu: Okay gotcha.
 
Lewis: So it… Yeah.
 
Yu: Okay. Okay, cool. Okay. So anyway, so I know that… So I've been working with Julian Terrell, with Brotherhood Sister Soul around similar issues around like policing, yeah—and like young folks and the future, like beyond—sort of more of an abolitionist kind of future, you know. And doing some activities around this, as I was saying, this series of Dare to Imagine workshops. And so, it was at the same time I reached out to you Lynn and others—hoping to work with Picture the Homeless, because that had—you know, it was well-publicized and it was in the news, that I know that Julian and you all had been a part, are part of the Communities United for Police Reform… Some of the coalition work—but it was very publicized how homeless folks were being literally attacked and criminalized and their belongings were being taken very violently. They were violently ripped from the spot under the—I believe it was the train, the Metro North train?
 
Yu: [00:43:32] And I think me and you Lynn, were talking a few times, like over email and just talking about, you know—reclaiming that space and using that possibly as an opportunity to collaborate and do a speak out, performance, a cultural event, basically. And yeah, it was awesome working with you on it. I know we were—I remember being in touch with you and even at the last moment, not knowing if we could even do it there because the police were obviously throwing a lot of shade at getting a permit. And I think even at the very end they didn't even give you a permit for obvious reasons, because they knew who you were and the event that we were trying to pull off. Or maybe we got one, I can't remember now.
 
Yu: [00:44:19] But you know, it was an amazing event. I remember we had like—you I mean, you really did so much to help put it together. I mean, there was like the sort of soup kitchen style thing outside. It was a little chilly. I think you all were giving out hot soup and some other snacks. I can't remember exactly, but I remember that being really good. Some folks made it I think, in their home and then brought it out and shared it. We had—we set the tables that they have there, right? Because it's like a plaza area where it's for the public. But yet when the public uses it—and it's the homeless public, then you get attacked, right? And then you get criminalized and violently taken from the space, right?
 
Yu: [00:45:09] So it's like, “Yeah! We're the public, we're coming in and we're going to reclaim it!” So, I remember we set up a sound system and I think we showed… I have pictures somewhere probably, but I think we showed a video actually, or did some kind of projection screening. But, there was a speak out. There was poetry. I remember Marcus also that did something, did a reading of some sort, because we had just invited him, before that, to the larger event that I organized at the church. He did—I had just met him a little bit before that, the Homeless Poet—and was like so inspired by his work, and he performed at that, which was so powerful. And I think he did it again in the plaza underneath the train station. 
 
Yu: [00:46:02] And then the final thing we had was the station. The art making station was where we were taking Polaroids of homeless folks, some who were members and leaders and some who were—had maybe just encountered the event. And we had asked them to take a photo of themselves and if they didn't want a photo I think we took a picture of an object or their bag or their hands or something, but most folks didn't mind. And then we were sending postcards basically to the mayor. And it was like, you know—they had to finish the sentence like, “I dare to imagine...” And then they—you know, “A time when homelessness… The end to homelessness.” And then they would finish, you know—they would finish the postcard from there. And you know, I took—we actually did send it to… I mean, obviously we never heard back but we—I held on to them for a little bit, took pictures of them. I have pictures of them stored away somewhere. We have like a good like fifty of them, I believe forty-five to fifty of them collected.
 
Yu: [00:47:06] All folks who were like… This is articulating what they want for the future, right? At a time when homelessness is sort of eliminated. And it was interesting, all the different comments people had. And it was very, very much related to like, the end of police harassment, right? And that kind of thing. But it was very clearly—we put up a huge sign saying like you know, “Tell the mayor…” You know—write a few words and tell the mayor, you know, “How your vision for ending homelessness.” Right?
 
Yu: [00:47:41] So it was interesting, and I didn't know if people were going to do it or not. I just didn't have a pulse on if folks wanted their face on a postcard, or not. But almost everyone was like, “Yeah, that's fine.” So we had like, someone take a picture and then folks write the message and then we basically put the Polaroid onto the postcard and then the postcards, we displayed them all. We hung them all up so people could see them. The community could see them, the people at the event could see them. And I remember that we had enough film, enough Polaroid film—where we took an extra photo for each member to keep. So that was important for me. To me at least, the little things that—like being able to keep your own copy of the photo that we took. So that was cool.
 
Yu: [00:48:31] People were into the little, you know—the little Polaroid camera, like one of those throwbacks. And Rebel Diaz, I remember performed. And then there was a whole to-do with Rebel Diaz, which I don't mind talking about it publicly because I think it's important. For me—it was a learning moment for me, the reason why I'm going to share the story is it was a learning moment for me, when I had to re-articulate that we are not part of the state. [Laughs] Like, this is all pretty much a volunteer driven effort. And the whole point was that there were chapters across the U.S. of folks who were making a deliberate point, right—trying to make a point that in all these other countries with some progressive agendas where there is a Department for Arts and Culture, where there's funding for public projects and things that benefit the public, but the U.S. doesn't have that.
 
Yu: [00:49:28] So, I remember having a moment talking with folks and to them, right—I had met them a few times, but they didn't know who I was, which is totally fine. But I remember there was… You talking to them beforehand and even on the spot and you were—I remember how beautifully you handled it. It was like, you know, classic Lynn—you know, your facilitation and a learning moment for me, that that trust that has to be built, right? You all had trust, of course. But that trust that I have to develop and build with folks is really important, in advance. And so I was just trying to stay composed, but also help them understand that this is not a part of the state. Like, I would not have anything to do with something that was truly a part of the state in that way, if that makes any sense. 
 
Yu: [00:50:22] So anyway, it all got worked out in the end. They were amaze—you know, they were great. And I think there were a lot of people who came honestly because they were going to perform, you know. So—and then 'Not4Prophet' I think came and also did a piece, which was awesome because I know him from—he did a fundraiser way back for Chinese Staff and NMASS in the ‘90s, when he was with Ricanstruction. So, I hadn't seen him like in fifteen years at that point, or something like that. So that was really cool. 
 
Yu: [00:50:57] But anyway, I say all that to say like, there were these learning moments, but I appreciate how you all—you Lynn, facilitating everything and how again, like just being reminded of the community spirit of everyone, like everyone coming early to help at like… You know, I was all freaked out because it was like a few of us volunteers and then PTH members being like, “Okay, what do we need to do? Just tell us what we need to do?” And it was like, ready to throw—that we're ready to throw down, right? It wasn't like we knew, I needed to do tons of explanation. People were like, “Yep, just tell us what we need to do.” And people were just like, all hands on deck, ready to go and ready to do the thing. And I just appreciate that, because obviously that just shows that foundation of trust in a relationship that's existed for a long time and that understanding like, “I got your back. We're going to do this.” You know? And so those little things are very, very significant to me, actually, you know?
 
Yu: [00:51:55] But I think that the event was really successful. It was awesome, just like the spirit of folks, you know? Staying for really—I think we were there for like, a while… For a couple of hours.
And I don't even know if the cops came. Maybe we were standing on the sidelines? But you know, clearly there were enough of us where they weren't going to really mess with us too much. People—but I remember people lining up for the food and—and then like sitting and listening to the performance and the speakers, and then everything just went really beautifully. I mean, that was one of the more… Like, I was nervous because it was so public and given what had happened in the last month by the police, I was super nervous about it. But it was like a super memorable event for everyone.
 
Yu: [00:52:37] Like Bridget who is, you know—actually, as you probably know—went through the same oral history program, or is still in it.
 
Lewis: She's great.
 
Yu: Who was with the USDAC at that time. Yeah, she's amazing. She was just learning about PTH at the time and a few other people I know who—a few people from Mayday Space at the time… Because this was like 2016 or something, or 2017. I can't remember now, but in those years—and they were really, they were all really impacted. They were profoundly impacted by the event themselves, as well. So, it was really powerful. It was really, really powerful. All of it. All of it. The speak out, the performances, the food, the picture taken with the postcards, it was all—I feel like it all went really beautifully. There were little, little, little snags along the way, you know what I mean? But it's something—that's not something that we—we all can't figure out, you know.
 
Lewis: [00:53:30] Shadow, the office manager for Picture the Homeless at the time—he liked doing kind of sound system deejaying kind of stuff and, you know, he set it up and Rebel Diaz was upset about the flier and the State Department stuff, which I went over with them again. They knew Julian. So actually, I think it was a, you know—[laughs] a “dude talk to the to the dudes over there”, kind of situation. Because it was like…
 
Yu: Oh…
 
Lewis: And then Prophet did several pieces, like with no—with no sound equipment.
 
Yu: I remember that. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:54:14] But, what was so powerful is when you reached out to us, I remember Marcus and I were on a like—I put my phone on speakerphone so we could talk to you, because he was really starting to perform his poetry
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmm.
 
Lewis: in public, and Prophet actually was teaching the writing classes.
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: [00:54:38] So we had hired Prophet as a writing teacher when we were still in the Bronx because we were getting funding from, you know—Venezuela money from, through Citgo.
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: And so Prophet… Yeah, Prophet and Marcus had a very tight relationship. And the other folks besides Marcus that performed kind of poetry pieces
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: were some of the same people that were being vamped on by the police, in that exact same space.
 
Yu: I remember that. That's right. Yeah, I remember that.
 
Lewis: [00:55:11] And so when—when we were talking about it… And I think we initially were talking about doing it in the back yard and then we asked you if you would mind if we could do it across the street and like claim that space? There was like a battle, and Julian was also part of Cop Watch in Harlem.
 
Yu: Mmmm.
 
Lewis: And so he—he was aware of all of that happening, in a very kind of direct way. And—and so there were a lot of—kind of intersections,
 
Yu: Mmmmmm.
 
Lewis: and so that particular space just was so—not just symbolic. I mean, it symbolized this kind of—the way that police enforces gentrification and
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: you know, who—who is considered a legit member of the public.
 
Yu: Right.
 
Lewis: [00:56:03] But it also—it also supported their fight back.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm. Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: And you know, there's so many different ways to fight back. You know, we have protests. We have all kinds of ways to fight back. But cultural work, you know, is one way and I think that our—that relationship with you, really helped to reinforce Picture the Homeless's use of kind of seizing space and symbolism and representation and how all those things, you know—combine to create a narrative. And so, I think one of the through lines of our relationship with you was, you know—helping us amplify kind of—messaging through cultural like, production, and…
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: So it was very exciting for us. And that's why people were just like, “What do we need to do and what has to be done?”
 
Yu: Uh-Huh.
 
Lewis: And were just ready.
 
Yu: [00:57:04] Yeah, I just remember that part, people were like… You know, because I'm used to—the preamble “Yeah, yeah… You know…” People were like, “No, no, no. Let's just—just do it. What needs to be done?” [Laughs] Like, “So you don't have to give us all that just, just… Don’t—it's okay. Direct us. Just let us know.” And to have all those folks like come—volunteers and members, just being like, “Okay, let's do this. We're doing this together.” And it was like… Because I—you know, hadn't been in… You know, maybe we weren't in touch for a little bit—a couple of years and it just reminded me of the spirit, that sort of like, “I'm ready to throw down” collective spirit. “I got your back” kind of thing?
 
Yu: [00:57:37] That is very rare to really see that in a lot of—to be real, in a lot of organizing spaces, right? Because as we all know, I mean—it's like a broken record, but the nonprofit industrial complex, we all know it exists. And they say one thing, but then, on the inside—in the internal, it's like not like that, right? It's very much a territorial thing. There's beef. There's all this shit. And I know every organization has that, of course. But I think when push comes to shove, people come together and they make—they know that they're on the same, right? We're all on the same side kind of thing. Like, let's make this happen.
 
Yu: [00:58:17] And it just reminded me of like, when a collective is at its best in terms of just—like the principles of it, and on the same page with the mission and everything… Like you know, in a four hour compact time, you know—doing what we all did together was, you know—like you said, it's symbolic. It wasn't just the event, “Oh. This four hour event.” But the symbolism of like folks—homeless folks reclaiming, taking that space back. And you're and you're right. I think I have the video somewhere. And if you want it, I could probably…
 
Yu: [00:58:50] But I just remember the powerful speeches that—I think two or three people made… You're right, of folks who—you're right, like the folks who were like, “Right here, you know, my cart was taken—ripped from me, my shopping cart.” And, I think I remember being like, “Wow. That was so full circle powerful.” Like, that was just incredible that this person gets to get on the fricken microphone... And I think there was a cop on the sideline being like—this is what they did right here, in the spot, you know?
 
Yu: [00:59:19] It's just like, it's so powerful. It's so powerful. But that was also a fun event, honestly. It was just a fun—it was just like a lot of fun, too—yeah, because it actually went well. You know, when it doesn’t go well, you're like, “Fuck. Okay, I'm in it. I just got to complete—just got to like, let it finish, you know… Like I'm waiting for the end.” But it—it went really well. And even with the Rebel Diaz thing they ended up being fine. You know what I mean? Like it was fine, but it all went really, really well, I thought.
 
Yu: [00:59:58] And it's a testament to you and Picture the Homeless and I think like—the commitment and like, always being like, having the common ground of like the… Which I really am inspired by. Like, I don't know how to articulate into words. But this—always remembering the end goal of like, “Okay, we're going to get through this together because there's an end goal here and we might have some things that we're going to—you know, fight over or whatever in terms of… But we got to make this happen. We're going to—we're going to make it happen.”
 
Yu: [01:00:22] And that's something I feel like you all—throughout the sleep-outs and all the actions you've done in the past, everything. That's one thing that is so inspiring about Picture the Homeless, really. And not to romanticize, I know everyone's got their shit, everybody—but very inspiring, you know. It's like Chinese Staff and Workers, to be honest. Like, you know, anyway… I've got my issues with them, but they fucking throw down. Like when, when it comes down to it, they throw down, you know, so... I have a lot of respect for that. Very few groups have that core spirit of—of that, of like literally when it's like life and death, it's literally life and death issues that you're dealing with. So, yeah. 
 
Lewis: [01:01:08] You know, Betty—one of the things that… I think this is making me actually think about and we were thinking about it then, but it's helping me remember—is that there was a whole organizing campaign around asserting that people have the right to public space, that the cops actually are supposed to follow the law. There are laws. [Laughs] There's a Constitution.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: And what they were doing was brutalizing people and violating their constitutional rights and their humanity, their basic humanity and dignity. And so I think one of the reasons why that event was so powerful in so many ways was that it gave an expression to that campaign in a little bit of a different way.
 
Lewis: [01:01:59] But people that were
 
Yu: Mmmmm.
 
Lewis: just starting to speak to the press, just starting to come to meetings... Actually see that people come to that space and say, “We're going to have your back to defend this, and we want to listen to you.” I think that, having cultural work happening in support of organizing campaigns, you know… When it's done—when it works, is just extremely powerful. You know, we were having meetings,
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm. Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: but people—people that maybe didn't shine in a meeting as much were really shining in that space and like reciting a poem. But it reinforced like the collective knowledge and commitment.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm. Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: [01:02:49] And so,
 
Yu: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: speaking of police brutality, there's another event that we did together with a bunch of other groups around Akai Gurley.
 
Yu: Oh right, of course! Right.
 
Lewis: Yeah, there was an action down around by the—the like… By One PP,
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: One Police Plaza and the Federal building.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: And you—we got there, and you were like coordinating security, or just telling us...
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: Like—we're like, “What do we need—what do you want us to do?” And you're like, “Stand there—you know, guard the parameter.” [Laughter]
 
Yu: That's right. Yes, yes I do remember this. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [01:03:30] Yeah, so do you—could you share any—any memories about that kind of
 
Yu: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: aspect of our work?
 
Yu: Yeah. Yeah. I mean… I'd totally forgotten about that. That's like so many, so many inter—overlapping things, which is a great thing. Yeah. So, and then you all came out a bunch, too right? I know members came out for the court support stuff too, I remember in Brooklyn at the Brooklyn courts… You know, when all that was happening.
 
Yu: [01:04:03] One of the first events before all that, you're right—was like… I think it was maybe like five or six months, or four, five, six months after the incident had happened. And, you know—then we knew that “the Chinese right”, I call it—but sadly, a lot of regular everyday Chinese American working class folks are—were totally brainwashed and swept up in it, right? So, we'd been hearing about the organizing that was happening on, you know—amongst the Chinese business elite who were going to obviously go all out and defend Peter Liang, the cop who killed Akai Gurley. And I was just getting involved—2014, 2015. I was just getting by with CAAAV and just—just wanting to volunteer or do whatever I can.
 
Yu: [01:04:50] I mean, I had been involved a little bit before that, but when Akai Gurley was killed and, you know—CAAAV was like the first group in the Asian American community, particularly in Chinatown to come forward, because he was from Chinatown, Peter Liang—to come forward and denounce this. And I just wanted to, any effort I could—I could contribute to, in organizing and supporting CAAAV in this work.
 
Yu: [01:05:18] And I just remember, like Cathy—you know, the E.D., of course you know Cathy Dang. But for the folks who may not know, Cathy Dang was the executive director of CAAAV: Organizing Asian Communities, at the time. And I remember, you know, what—how she emotionally shared when she talked to the Akai Gurley family and they were so thankful—not thankful, but just appreciative. Like an Asian American group, like a mainly Chinese and Asian-American folks, that were like one of the first groups at the time saying, “No, like—this is not just an accident. This is a murder of a man. And Peter Liang has to be held accountable.” 
 
Yu: [01:05:59] And so we had, at that time, I think Asians for Black Lives Matter had been forming and doing all this work. And then leading up to that big press conference at One Police Plaza… And it was really in response to the incredible, heinous... Heinous, heinous, heinous reporting that was so one sided in the Chinese press, which we all knew was going to be in the four dailies. But just—no, not even one, just nothing—iota of criticism of Peter Liang and of the police. Right. Especially he, himself—right, was just, you know—dehumanizing Akai Gurley, right?
 
Yu: [01:06:44] And then, of course as we know, at the same time what was happening—maybe a little bit after the press conference when we went public with the campaign and everything… You know, we all—Cathy Dang was getting death threats from people in Chinatown who are supposed to be community people, right? Were like—they just… It was so vulgar and disgusting! The hate that they were spewing toward CAAAV and toward the folks who were organizing, right? And then the marches happened, right? The ten-thousand, twenty-thousand people who were marching. Asian Americans marching for Peter Liang's exoneration, or whatever.
 
Yu: [01:07:23] But that moment at One Police Plaza was the exception where I think we all felt like, okay—we were all kind of, how do I say this? I think at that point, there was just so much hate coming toward CAAAV and the organizing effort that that was when I think—I know myself being involved at CAAAV at that time, felt like—wow, there was a community of folks coming together, right? Because Akai Gurley, you know—folks who were organizing around—around obviously, with the family and CPR and other anti-police brutality groups were organizing with them.
 
Yu: [01:08:04] But it was for CAAAV I think, personally—to have other groups, other Asian American groups like DRUM you know, all the other groups that came out and Picture the Homeless who came out, I remember... In the event, I think people were super freaked out. I remember now, because the threats were happening. So I think when you all came and maybe we did it in advance, I can't remember how organized it was, or it might have been on the fly. We were like, “Okay. You all, you have to stand here. You have to stand here. You got to like, protect this perimeter here.” Because we, I think people were—I don't think we were letting on how freaked out some of us were. But you know, there's like really powerful forces that control Chinatown. So, I think there was this feeling that we really need to make sure that people are safe, you know—particularly the leadership, you know? So yeah! I remember, you know—when folks came, you know—there was like at least eight or nine folks from PTH right? If I'm not mistaken. And yeah, I know folks who helped guard one end of the sort of perimeter, or like I think we made like a semicircle when the press conference was happening.
 
Yu: [01:09:19] And yeah, it was really powerful. I mean, you know, there was the flowers that folks had as a memorial to Akai Gurley. His family was there. It was very emotional. It was really a… It was very—moving event, but also an event where I can say that I—we felt like, “Wow, okay. There's a community here, people who were going to have CAAAV's back.” To be honest—because it was it was a scary time, I think those couple of years. I'm sure you knew about that, at that time. So, I do remember like… I'm trying to remember, did PTH—so there was a person who spoke, right? At the press conference? Can’t remember… I can't remember who, though. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [01:10:05] I don't remember who either. I remember seeing other families—like Nicholas Hayward was there.
 
Yu: Oh, right. Right. Yep. Other families. That's right, other…
 
Lewis: Other families of people killed by the police. I remember it was freezing cold.
 
Yu: It was freezing cold; I remember that yep.
 
Lewis: Freezing, freezing cold. It was so cold, and there was a huge turnout.
 
Lewis: [01:10:26] And I remember not long after that—sometime after that, Meejin called me and—because CAAAV still wanted to march in the Lunar New Year,
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: the parade.
 
Yu: Oh that’s right. Yes, yes that's right.
 
Lewis: And were asking for allies to help provide security for them. And I remember it was like five degrees or—going to be five degrees or something
 
Yu: Yeah!
 
Lewis: Like yeah… Our folks were like, “Yeah! We're there.”
 
Lewis: [01:10:57] And I think that—you know, it really speaks to long term relationships where
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: people understand that what they're going through is similar to what someone else is going through and they want to step up. Because
 
Yu: Yeah.
 
Lewis: on the face of it, you know, we had a long time relationship with CAAAV
 
Yu: Mmm-Hmmm. Mmm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: around gentrification and people… You know, the own—landlords allowing buildings basically to be condemnable
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: and people living in illegal—I mean, criminal conditions and then the landlords just evicting everyone because the building's going to be condemned. And you know,
 
Yu: Yeah.
 
Lewis: the real—the real bravery that a lot of Chinatown tenants were showing. And it—it really… You know, it's not the same exact thing as being homeless, but it's like on a spectrum. And so for our folks, it was like, “Yeah, these are—these are communities that are facing like, the—the housing crisis maybe in a little bit of a different way, but we have
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: the same enemy, you know? [Laughs] It has the same
 
Yu: Yeah.
 
Lewis: root causes. And so for us, it was very important I think—as an organization to link with CAAAV... Because CAAAV and Picture the Homeless, if I'm not mistaken, are really the two organizations that for years, both organized around housing and to end police brutality.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm. Mm-Hmmm. That's right, yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:12:39] Yeah, often a lot of the groups that are organizing around policing don't work on housing
 
Yu: Yeah.
 
Lewis: in the same way, and vice versa. Housing they don't… So for us, CAAAV—we always felt like a special connection with them. And clearly also there's media narratives like Chinese people or Asians are wealthy, or you know, not poor.
 
Yu: Right. Right.
 
Lewis: And so, that was…
 
Yu: Right, right. Which is more and more, yeah… I mean, in the twenty-five years doing this work, right? It's gone from one end to the other, right? It's like, you know—it's amazing to me. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Meanwhile, it's like Chinatown is still—like in Manhattan definitely, and in New York City, one of the poorest zip codes still, you know.
 
Lewis: Yep.
 
Yu: [01:13:27] Yeah, I know. And I had heard—I knew, you know—I knew about the history because you know Cathy and CAAAV would often talk about PTH and the work and various coalition work. And I obviously had a prior relationship with you all, already. So it was like, one of those like full circle moments where you're like, “Oh of course—you know, of course there's that foundation, you know, of a relationship and of like core values and principles that are shared—that like, supporting one another.”
 
Yu: [01:13:54] But you’re—I remember that Lunar New Year thing. That's right. People were super… Yeah, people—there was… Yeah, there were moments where it was like, “Holy fuck.” [Laughs] Like I think—yeah, people were freaked out that like Cathy and others were risking… They were in danger basically. Like it was, it was really ugly. It got really, really ugly for a good three or four years. It was disgusting actually. Like going to the courts, you know? And like, the shit that people would spew—the fucking racist shit on Facebook about Akai Gurley? I'm like, really?
 
Yu: [01:14:29] On one end, you're going to say this, and on the other end you're going to say this kind of… I don't fucking care, you know? When no one cares… You know, he was arrested whatever amount of times. It has nothing to do with the situation, right? And then the way they were able to manipulate the situation with Asian immigrants really was disgusting, you know? Like even including my own family members! Right? I remember at some point, when we went to do some like—intel of like, who was leading these marches and stuff. It was like, “Oh my God! I know some of these people!” Some of them are CAAAV members! I don't know if you know, but some of them were tenants who got swept up in it all. And some of them left CAAAV because they were like, “Why did CAAAV… Why did you take this stand, da-da-da?” 
 
Yu: [01:15:13] I think it was a learning moment for—for CAAAV. You know, back in 2015/16, which was like, “Okay, we do need to do that foundational work.” They had done political education, but maybe not enough and not widespread enough you know—with tenants, because some of them did leave. So anyway, but PE is so important. The political education is so important.
 
Lewis: Yeah, we can never discount or dismiss that.
 
Yu: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:15:41] I want to segue a little bit to—although this sounds kind of jarring. But in the midst of all of these life and death struggles you know, and I totally agree this is about people's lives. So in the midst of all these life and death struggles and you know, police murders and people being kicked out of their buildings, or sleeping on the street, we also had like, amazing like—parties and social events.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm. Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: That you were also really present at. And I wanted to, you know, to ask you to just reflect on—you know, that aspect of—of building together.
 
Yu: Yeah! I remember... I think I was on one of the host committees for one of the [audio gets a little unclear here] huge parties... I can't—was it at CAAAV? I can't even remember. Not CAAAV, was it at PTH's space? Some big space. It was a big party thing. I don't remember where it was. Anyway, [laughs] it was so much fun. I remember I went to a number of them. There was one where—I still have pictures with you and Jean and Denisse Andrade and Sam Miller and like—all these folks I hadn’t seen in a while. Like, I always would tell people often, like we would see each other annually at these things, like maybe life happens and you get so busy you don't see each other. But then at the PTH thing is when you know you'll see all the folks, you know? And you get to party and throw down.
 
Yu: [01:17:14] I have to say that there is no other group that really throws a party like you all did, and maybe continue to do. But I haven't, you know—I haven't been to an annual event with COVID, that PTH has hosted in a couple of years. But you all threw down. It was like incredible. The amount of detail, also that you paid attention to, A. And then B, just the fun, just having the fun—the spirit is definitely like no other, for real. I'm not even just saying.
 
Yu: [01:17:46] You know, we all have gone to things where we feel like obligated to go to. Where you're like, “Okay, this group is doing this GALA, and that GALA...” Whatever. They're all stiff and they're all… Some of them are grassroots and fun. You know, a lot of the ones I go to… I mean no offense to Asian-Americans, but they're usually a little more reserved. It's fun in their own way, but it's a little bit more on the reserved side. [Smiles] But I'm not a reserved person, at all. That's not how I grew up. I'm a loud person [laughs] who comes to party, right? And I'm just not the quiet person who is just reserved. I'm just not.
 
Yu: [01:18:23] And so when I would go to a PTH party, I knew it was going to be so much fun. I always knew that I was gonna stay like—till the end. I always knew I was going to sweat and probably lose—a good like—you know whatever—pound or two pounds from dancing and sweating. And I knew there would be food and fun and good people, good company. And I feel like every year when you all put that on, it was like—I actually enjoyed going. It wasn't like… You know, there are things—I'm going to be real like—you feel like it's a drag. Like, you know you have to show up and you have to go—cause you have to go. But that was just like… It felt extracurricular, in a good way. Like it was fun.
 
Yu: [01:19:07] And I just remember, you know, probably turning around and always seeing you and a few other folks just on the dance floor—like hours, just nonstop. And I was like, “How? How are they even still moving?” Because I was just like—sweating and smelly and dehydrated. And I'm like, “Oh my God, how are people still going?” But it was so much fun. I don't even remember who dee-jaying them, but I remember the music being amazing. That's one thing I remember that the music was amazing and the company obviously, and the space itself being amazing. 
 
Lewis: [01:19:46] We—we had for several years for those Dancegiving, those annual parties, DJ Laylo, who's a filmmaker—Loira Limbal. She dee-jays
 
Yu: Oh!
 
Lewis: those… And she's incredible. [Smiles] And now—before that, we had I think, Imani Henry dee-jayed… 
 
Lewis: Oh right! I remember him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: And then before that, Carlito Rovira from the Young Lords, but he's also a deejay. He dee-jayed some of ours.
 
Yu: Oh okay!
 
Lewis: [01:20:22] And you know, for us it was important for a lot of reasons. Because, you know—people need to have fun! And you know—folks, members of Picture the Homeless, their lives were so not fun in so many ways.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: But there was always like—you know, there's always friendships that people had, and people were very open to having fun, and we were having little parties in the office. And people would make things more fun, you know, like make things.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: If we would have like a—in the, just in the office some kind of meal or we always celebrated someone's birthday, we would get a cake and people would always do some fancy little thing, like get some pretty napkins and you know, and it was something that really came from the members that, “Yeah. We like nice things! [Laughs] You know, we like to have a good time!” 
 
Yu: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Yep.
 
Lewis: [01:21:23] Yeah. And then to do that with our friends… You know I—we also knew that for a bunch of people that would come, to see all these homeless folks dancing and having a good time would be kind of like cognitive dissonance, and important.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmmm. Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: You know, to be able to see someone that—maybe in their regular daily routine is picking up cans or whatever, and they're not all dressed up. And then you see them on the dance floor, and they look hot! [Laughs] You know, like you don't think of homeless people
 
Yu: Yeah.
 
Lewis: as looking hot or sexy or whatever. So, that was all part of this whole, let's just turn all that stigma on its head
 
Yu: yeah!
 
Lewis: and have fun at the same time.
 
Yu: [01:22:09] Yeah, and you—and you guys did it beautifully. I mean, you know I just—again, like when you see groups you know, there's so much turnover in members and staff and like seeing… I mean Picture the Homeless is one of those groups where like, over this fifteen year period you would see the same members. I mean, in a good way—expanded of course but, members who were—who were still around and organizing and that's a testament to their commitment to the organization too, you know.
 
Yu: [01:22:40] And I think like honestly in New York City, PTH and also nationally, you know—and maybe internationally… But speaking for it in terms of New York City—your media project and just in general, the organizing work really forced people to see homeless… Like PTH's work forced everyday people to see homeless people in a very different way, in a very sort of dignified way, that I think—commanding and demanding respect and dignity. That is, I think, you know—maybe at the time, I had a little bit… Like, after the event at the Metro station in that plaza in East Harlem, some of the folks that volunteered or helped that day talked about how impacted they were by that event. Maybe not right after, but down the line when I saw them, they talked about that, you know. That it was just such a unique experience and, you know, really demanding that respect and dignity and the way that you all organized together around that is just so powerful and unusual. 
 
Yu: [01:24:01] And I think that, it's not just in terms of how it impacts other homeless organizing. I think just other kinds of organizing by directly impacted people. That you all provide that model. I think that—I wish other groups, you know... Honestly, groups like CAAAV or other groups can learn a lot, right—from that model of organizing. I think that's really, really important because it's one thing to say it, right? And to say it because you feel it. I'm not saying CAAAV at all, but I'm saying any group where you… It's one thing to say it, but then when you know internally it's not necessarily operating that way, that's a whole nother thing. But you all, you know, walk the talk, you know. And I think that that's very unusual. And it's a model that I think other groups who do this kind of work—grassroots organizing, should emulate or should like model after, to be honest. Like, I'm not just saying that. Like, I really mean that—at least from when I was involved. 
 
Yu: [01:25:01] I mean, I don't know…. In the past couple of years I haven't been involved with Picture the Homeless, I mean—you know, in that way. But from what I remember, that was certainly the most powerful thing—the leadership development and the sort of the dignity and respect amongst one another, and the organizing truly, that sort of this bottom up—this bottom up organizing, I think is—yeah, right. Very, very inspiring, and powerful.
 
Lewis: [01:25:30] Well Betty, you know, I've always been grateful to you. Just speaking for myself, and I know the group was always very, very just appreciative of your—you know, your friendship with us. Because it wasn't just like there's allies and then there's some people that are just our friends.
 
Yu: Mm-Hmmm.
 
Lewis: [01:25:51] I also—I also know that I promised you, this was going to happen between four-thirty and six-thirty.
 
Yu: Right. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: Or was the time you gave me. So, I'm going to honor your time. And I could talk to you all night and…
 
Yu: [Laughs]
 
Lewis: But I won't. [Smiles]
 
Yu: No, no. Yeah. [Laughs] Yeah. I hope—I hope that was enough. I mean, I hope we got to most of the bullet points that you had, or the questions. I think we did.
 
Lewis: Yeah. We did. And if there's anything in the transcript, like if there's any words that I—as I'm transcribing that aren't clear because the recording is a little glitchy. I'll just put in parentheses in red “Unclear.” So it stands out.
 
Yu: Okay.
 
Lewis: And thank you for, you know, twenty years
 
Yu: of course. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: of you know, beautiful…
 
Yu: Of course. I can't believe it. That's crazy.
 
Lewis: Yeah well—you know, we're looking through this archive and we have
 
Yu: That’s crazy.
 
Lewis: all these photos. We look like babies! I'm sure I have some of you.
 
Yu: That's crazy.
 
Lewis: I was just like, 'Oh, my God. 
 
Yu: That's crazy. That's insane.
 
Lewis: She's not a baby so…
 
Yu: Yeah, I know, right? Jesus.
 
Lewis: But it's a good thing.
 
Yu: It's a good thing. It's a good thing that we're all still friends and you all are still doing—the oral history project is thriving. [Audio ends a little glitchy, and ends a little abruptly]

{End of Interview]