Anthony Williams (Interview 3)

Lewis: [00:00:01] Alright. So, we are here. It’s January 22nd, and I’m Lynn Lewis interviewing Anthony Williams, cofounder of Picture the Homeless. We’re here in New York in East Harlem in my apartment. How are you tonight, Anthony?

Williams: [00:00:43] I’m feeling happy.

Lewis: Why do you feel happy?

Williams: Oh, because we had a major victory and got to see some members I haven’t seen in a very long time that started out with us in Picture the Homeless and the pieces of legislation that was written—got copies of those. I can look at them and read them. And the stuff that we’ve been working on for so many years is starting to materialize. Yep. So that was great. We had a great celebration party.

Lewis: [00:01:01] Mm-hmmm. Who were some of the members that you got to see—that you hadn’t seen in a long time?

Williams: Gina Hunt, who was on the steering committee. Jean, it’s been a little while since I’ve seen Jean. Tyletha Samuels. DeBoRah [Dickinson]… Sam [J.] Miller. I’m just getting to know Jenny, organizer. Frank [laughs]. Wow. That was a mind-fuck—yeah Frank. I even wrote a little bit about that. About Frank—well, I haven’t wrote, but I put his name down so I could remember to write about him. But yeah, he started out with us, you know, with the squatting. He used to always come to all our hearings in Brooklyn and stuff like that.

Williams: [00:01:59] And just had the opportunity to write about Lewis [Haggins, Jr.], you know—that his thing was always about housing, and that always meant a lot to him, and he worked with people in the Lower East Side, to find space, and to get our story told about homelessness and the situation, during the Giuliani administration.

Lewis: Well, I’m really happy you could come up from Baltimore to be part of that. And it means a lot to people that you were there.

Williams: [00:02:33] Andres.

Lewis: [00:02:36] One of the things that we talked about in Baltimore, either in the interviews or just in our conversations, was, you know—you shared with me your excitement when a gentleman with the shopping cart pulled up outside the church, I guess? And tell me about—what does that mean for you?

Williams: Ah [pause] So much... It’s everything—that—what we want… It shows everything that we’re doing is the right thing. It’s just so important that when you have a homeless person with a shopping cart, come out of their way because they heard about a meeting about homelessness. To come, pull up in front, and come inside, and say, “I heard about this meeting.” And get refreshments, snacks, and sit through the meeting and listen, and also ask questions... And—you know, it’s like somebody—you know, when you park a shopping cart, right? [Laughs] You know, your parking—he parked it right in the parking spot_, in front of the building_ and came inside the front of the building. And his shopping cart was protected. And when I saw that shopping cart, it just kind of like—it just did a miracle inside of me. Something just—just, you know—the feeling, I just can’t even—just such a feeling.

Williams: [00:04:49] Because I know what it’s like, having a shopping cart, picking up cans, storing your private property. I also was able to go to San Francisco and see how important shopping carts, in a real way—and hundreds and hundreds of shopping carts in the streets and people living out of shopping carts. So, it is very important. These people live their lives… Their lives are in that shopping cart. If you turn over a shopping cart, you’re turning over somebody’s life. That is how heartfelt it is, you know? When you see people take their property, turn it upside down, and dump it on the ground, and take the shopping cart. Which is stuff that we witness happening to homeless people in the parks and different areas of the city of San Francisco.

Lewis: [00:05:54] Who’s doing that? Who’s turning over people’s shopping carts?

Williams: It would be the—the trash companies, it would be the police department, it would be the people retrieving shopping carts for the city, or for businesses that had shopping carts that said that they stole them. Which they proved that the majority of shopping carts are taken by elderly people and left abandoned. But those were the people, that were the problem. You know, turning… You know, dumping their stuff. Having sanitation come, dump their stuff. And sometimes they even throw their stuff away, if they didn’t get it moved out of perimeter at a certain period of time. And you know, that’s…

Williams: [00:06:48] I mean, when I saw that man, I was like—and when someone told me—you know, they get like two-hundred dollars for refinishing those shopping carts and taking them back to the stores, each.

Lewis: Like bounty hunters?

Williams: Yeah, shopping carts. That’s what they call them, shopping cart bounty hunters, man. And, you know—they had these pickup trucks where they pull up, and they got it all like, you know—all hooked up like a tow truck! Like. shopping cart behind shopping cart, people’s stuff dumped out… Take the shopping cart. “It’s not yours.” “It is my shopping cart.” “No, it isn’t.” And you hear them arguing. And you know, I was even arguing with them about these… “No. The shopping cart does not belong to them, it’s not their shopping cart.” And you know, yeah, you know…

Williams: [00:07:44] So, it’s so important when you see a shopping—a person with a shopping cart, whether they’re collecting cans, whether they’re keeping their property, whether they’re scrapping or doing aluminum, or whatever it may be. It’s their life resource! It’s the resources—it’s that resource that helps them get through the day and get through life. Just having a shopping cart.

Williams: [00:08:11] And people don’t see that as important! They just don’t. They just see you as a bum, or you know—some person that’s no good! They don’t—you’re so—the people are so stereotyped, that they don’t even see the strength in just walking around with a shopping cart. They don’t even see the strength of just having one. They don’t even see the resources, as a homeless person having a shopping cart to get more and more resources. They just do not see that.

Williams: [00:08:43] I see it very clearly. It’s so clear.

Lewis: What do you see?

Williams: Well, it’s very clear! Like last night, I’m on Eighth Avenue, walking down and this guy comes around Thirty-Fifth Street and Eighth Avenue—guy comes up the block… Had like three or four sticks in the shopping cart with bags wrapped all around them. I mean, it was…His shopping cart was full to capacity. And when you see a shopping cart that full, you already know this guy has over one-hundred dollars in cans. You just know it! You know, because I was taught by the best, right? Jean Rice and other folks! You could…You know, and they were folks that actually did it. And showed us the two-hundred dollars in cans, on a shopping cart. So, we know that... [Laughs] So, we know when we see that. We know what we’re looking at.

Williams: [00:09:45] And we’re looking at a person that has to at least start at eleven o’clock at night and finish at seven o’clock in the morning.

Lewis: Yep.

Williams: Or either start at six o’clock in the afternoon and finish at one o’clock in the morning, because that’s around the time I saw the guy. So, he must have been working all day, walking, collecting cans, going in trash cans, going in dumpsters, going behind businesses, going in front of businesses.

Williams: [00:10:10] I mean this is—this is work! This is a person that can make that kind of money in a day—but is still harassed… Treated as if they can’t return the cans to a store, you know... Or put a limit on the cans. So, that’s how important it is. Just, you know—simple question about a shopping cart. And look what we get out of all that.

Lewis: Yep.

Williams: Just one thing about a shopping cart, you know—people just discount a shopping cart, right? They see a person with a shopping cart, just discount them like, [imitates voice] “They’re a bum.”

Williams: [00:10:57] But we don’t. I don’t. I’m like, “Hey, can I get a [unclear].” And it’s like, I get excited! It’s crazy. I get excited. I actually got excited. I even said to the guy, “Do you know Jean?” You know? [Laughs] He goes, “No, I don’t know him.” I said, “But you do remember We Can right?” He goes, “Yeah, I remember We Can.” You know what I mean? That’s conversation you’re not—he’s just not going to get that from everybody on the street. And that’s a history of someone canning. Because they know about We Can. And they know where to go and cash those cans in and get a voucher to go to a check cashing place and get cash. It’s amazing Lynn. It’s amazing.

Lewis: [00:11:45] So, when you have… You know, you’re having a meeting and somebody who has a shopping cart, somebody who you know is street homeless, shows up to the meeting. What does that mean for you? And how did you get them there? How did they—what’s the way to get them there? Because they’re busy.

Williams: Right. It’s homeless people talking to homeless people. It’s like the sisters from Sisters Place. They see a guy with a shopping cart, and they say to him, “Hey, you okay today? How you doing? You know, they talk about homeless issues every Friday down there at that church.” And the guy might say, “Where? What church?” He said, “They have coffee, refreshments down there every Friday morning at ten o’clock, at First Unitarian.” “Mm. What do they talk about?” “Oh, you know, shelters, programs, housing…” “Oh, okay. Maybe I’ll check it out.”

Williams: [00:13:03] “Yeah. Maybe you should. Maybe you can give some input, you know. Maybe you can tell us what’s going on on the street.” Because we don’t know everything, they’re the ones that know. They’re the ones that know about the violence. [Laughs] Because they’re in the middle of it, so—yeah. That’s what it means to me. It means them educating us and us educating them. Because a lot of them don’t know.

Williams: [00:13:35] You know, the reason is they—a lot of folks… Some folks still live at home and collect cans. Some folks collect cans living in a bando, like I did… And I got banned from M&T Bank Stadium three times. But it’s—so that’ll tell you. All you’re doing is looking for cans. You’re not bothering anybody. You’re not messing with the tailgaters. You’re picking up cans. And they tell you, “It’s illegal for you to do that here. You cannot pick up our cans. Those are our cans.” And then you get a ticket. “It’s just a warning ticket. But we don’t want to see you back in here again.” And so, they see me back in there again. They said, “Okay, you’re banned from a year. Here’s your ticket.” I come back again, and they said, “Well, next time we see you we’re going to arrest you.” Right?

Williams: [00:14:36] So, I mean, you just… You know, the simple—the things that a homeless person goes through in life on a daily basis, because they have a shopping cart, because they’re trying to make a living, or trying to make some ends meet, make some cash, take off the edge? You know, you’re criminalized for it.

Williams: [00:15:00] So, when I see a person coming towards the building and like parking their shopping cart and coming in—it’s an honor! You know, this guy actually is coming to our meeting. Like, that’s an honor. That’s an honor in itself! Like, that’s just an honor. Because that’s why we do what we do. That’s why we hold meetings. That’s why we can say we deal with the street homeless population. Without telling a white lie. Like—we deal with the homeless. We deal with the street homeless population. We work with people in tents, that live in tents, on a daily basis. We work with homeless people that have to deal with the homeless outreach team—disrespecting them and telling them they can’t be here or be there, they got to move over there. So yeah—it’s an honor and a privilege to have those folks come to your meeting, to talk about solutions, and how can this stop. You know, yeah. Because there’s so much to be said about homelessness and…

Williams: [00:16:23] You know, but particularly, these aren’t people that are sheltered. They’re not sheltered people. These are folks that live on the street day in and day out. Or either in a tent. But they’re not, you know—they don’t get to go inside a building and take a shower. Some of them rarely take showers. A lot of times they’re dirty. So, it takes a lot of strength for a person to just want to stop canning for five minutes or half an hour, and park their shopping cart, just to want to talk about what’s going on with the homeless, you know. “I heard you were talking about us.” It’s just so important, it just means so much. It just means so much when you know—because you just know what it means.

Williams: [00:17:21] You know, this whole thing with Jean and Prince… You know, I met Prince. I met Prince at a trash can, outside of Judson Memorial Church, digging his hands in a trash can for cans and I walked up to him. I went out for a cigarette break. That’s when I used to smoke. So, I see this guy reach in the garbage cans. Now, I hear on the radio earlier that Bloomberg wants to take away the nickel. They’re trying to follow what the state and see what laws they can do to eliminate the nickel from homeless people. Or from people to returning recyclables... So, I heard that clear, right?

Williams: [00:18:13] So, I see this guy in the trash can. I say, “Hey, man!.. I see you’re a canner.” I said, “What do you think about the Bloomberg administration taking your cans away, your nickel away?” He goes, “Well, he can’t do that!” And I said, “Well, I just heard him on the radio talk about doing that.” He goes, “Well, that’s a _state _thing.” He goes, “And who are you anyway?” I said, “Well, my name is Anthony, I’m with this organization called Picture the Homeless. We meet here every Wednesday. And I just thought you may want to know about it or do something about it.” He goes… I said, “You can come down if you want now and have a cup of coffee.” And he came down, and we started talking.
 
Williams: [00:18:55] He says, “You know, I’m probably not the one you should be talking to. But you should be talking to maybe, my cousin.” And he says, “The next time I see you, I’ll tell you that I talked to him.” And every time I saw him I would ask him. I said, “What about your cousin?” “Oh, I told him, but he’s not really serious about it.” I said, “Well, tell him he should come down and meet with us. And you should come too!” He goes, “Well, I already came down there but that’s the kind of stuff my cousin is into.” I said, “Oh, okay.” And finally, they both came—on a Wednesday night.

Lewis: Yep.

Williams: [00:19:26] So, that’s how important, that’s really how important, it is. Because you’re dealing with people where they’re at. You know—what concerns them is important. If someone is going to threaten to take away your job, you would like to know about it. Or, you know—get some information why this person is trying to take my job. Well, just like trying to take that nickel, man. That’s like, a lot of money… You know—collecting cans. And when you… And when people in administration start throwing out these terms like, “Well, we could use the money in a better way, we don’t need to…” It’s just sad how people make these assumptions of people and don’t even take the value of what they’re doing into consideration. That this is them making a living. This is how they take care of eating every day and taking care of themselves. They may look dirty then. But when you see them later, they’re sharp as a whistle. Because I’ve seen it! I’ve seen Prince and Jean dress up.

Lewis: They dress up well. [Laughter]

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: [00:20:47] So… You know—there’s people that say that folks that are street homeless don’t want any help. And

Williams: Yeah!

Lewis: What—what does it take if folks like Picture the Homeless or like HON [Housing Our Neighbors] or another group that wants to organize homeless folks—what do you think it takes to get street homeless folks in? And what does it take so that they’ll stay involved and become leaders?

Williams: [00:21:29] That’s a good question. When I was getting my hair braided by this beauty parlor, I started ranting, talking about homeless—about the tents. I just started… [unclear] And the girl says, “They just want to be out there, don’t they? They just want to be homeless. They just want to be out there.” And I was very silent. And I said, “No. That’s not true.” She goes, “Well, yeah, they just want to be out there, right? That’s what I… ” You know, and she’s young. “They just want to be homeless, they just want to be out there, and they want their freedom, right?”

Williams: [00:22:14] And I’m like, “No! That’s not true. May be true for some, but not true for everybody.” And the most important thing is, everybody don’t particularly enjoy being homeless. People—some people don’t enjoy being dirty every day or picking, collecting cans every day, or asking for change every day. You think that it’s a glamorous thing and you’re very thrilled once you get the opportunity to ask somebody for money?

Williams: [00:22:53] You know… There are self-esteem issues that falls under all that. And you know, you don’t—you know, and you have to overcome certain barriers inside yourself just to say, “Hey, man, could you spare a dime? Hey, could you help me out with something to eat?” That takes energy and strength. And doing it consistently and doing it over and over again.

Williams: [00:23:19] So, to get a homeless person, in my objective—I mean in my opinion—it’s that if you get them doing something that they could see that’s making a difference for them, then they will stay! Because they see things changing. They see them having an opportunity to say what they need to say, without any type of repression or told they cannot speak that way or talk that way. And once they’re given a space to really talk about who they are and how they got there and what put them there.

Williams: [00:24:07] I mean, there’s so many circumstances… You know—people just being released from prison. I mean, you know—I knew guys that, you know—went in prison with a lot of money. But when they came out they were probated to the shelter. They were told they could not go back. Here in New York City. They were told they cannot go back to the old neighborhood. “You’re probated to the shelter. If you go back to your neighborhood you’re going back to jail.” “Well, I got a house and a home, in my neighborhood.” “Guess what, sir. You have to go and be homeless. You don’t go back to your old neighborhood. We just told you. You go back there; you’re going to jail. We want you mandated to the shelter.”

Williams: [00:24:49] When a guy told me that, I was like, “Damn. [Laughs] You mean they can just—the system just can make you homeless. Like, make you homeless.” You’re not even, you know—homeless! When you got released out of jail you could have went home. With your family and all. But no! You—the system is telling you to go to a shelter and be homeless and get an HA number and sign for a bed.

Williams: [00:25:23] Do you think… [laughs] Do you really think in your right mind somebody’d just want to do that? That’s hard to believe that somebody’d just want to do that. If they had other options. And, the ones that don’t have those options, you know—I’m quite sure they don’t want to be living that way, if they could live a better way, you know. I always said for myself, “I need a base to work from. I need a place where I can get back on my feet. I need to be able to go somewhere and think. Maybe read a book. Wash my face, or wash parts of my body. So, then I could feel a little better about myself the next day.”

Williams: [00:26:08] You know… Feeling… And you can look in a person’s face and eyes and see that they’re not—I see them all the time, man—you know. I was—wow… I was coming from shopping at East Market in the neighborhood. This guy I see off and on, but this time he was very dirty. Black hands, black—totally black fingertips. I mean you could see the dirt because he’s white, so you could see the dirt on his skin. And he goes, “Hey, man, could you help me out with some change?” And I say, “Yeah.”

Williams: [00:26:47] So, I go in one pocket, and it’s like I got like maybe one dollar in quarters. I give him that... I say, “Hold on a minute.” And I reach in my other pocket. And I said, “Hold on a minute. Here’s two dollars.” Then I reach in my other pocket. [Laughs] And I say, “Here, take this.” And so, I gave him all the change—every bit of money I had in my pocket. I gave him every bit of money I had in my pocket. You know what he said to me? “I never saw somebody empty their pockets for me like you just did.” And I said, “Well, people done it for me. Believe it or not. I was in your shoes. The same exact way, man. You may not believe it looking at me or seeing me—but I’ve been there. I know what it’s like, man.” And he says, [imitates voice] “I’m going to go to Glen Burnie. I might just go to Glen Burnie.” [Laughs] You know, so that’s—so that’s the—you know—so, no! The guy is devastated! You know—he had his head down and he said, “Could you help me out with some change?” You could see—he’s holding his head down, he’s demoralized. I don’t know, he just... You know, all hope is gone! All bets are off, you know, for him. And I felt that way too, man. And you can’t just say people want to be that way. Because they ask for help! The dude asked me for help.

Lewis: [00:28:25] What is the worst thing to you? What do you think the worst thing is about being homeless?

Williams: [Pause] Not knowing… Days are long… Days are long. Just not—you don’t know. You don’t know what’s ahead of you. You don’t—you’re not seeing a light. You’re taking off the edge—day in, day out, whatever way you can medicate yourself. Because I was really heavily medicating myself. But it wasn’t with my medication. It was totally other medications, types of medicines that were illegal. But it’s hard! It’s hard being homeless. It’s not easy. You wake up in the morning, you got hours before lunch. So, you have to figure out how you’re going to at least get a coffee or something to drink before you’re able to go to Our Daily Bread and get something to eat. Because you know they open up at ten-thirty, you have to wait in line of course, and then get in there by eleven.

Williams: [00:29:51] So… Your question, [sighs] it is hard. You know, there is no easy—it’s not easy being homeless. Matter of fact, I watch the devastation with these women. I see it more with the women. Some of the men—and with the men too. But man… You could—every time, you know, you could be used to seeing women come to your meeting. But it doesn’t mean that they’re getting better, because they’re coming to your meeting. The trauma has got them so messed up emotionally…

Williams: [00:30:38] And they say the same things over and over again. “But you said that...” You know, and some of our members get impatient with them. I’m like, “Why are you… ” I said, “You can’t get impatient! You know? Okay, you’ve been hearing this since the day one they’ve been coming—so what?! That’s for them! They’re talking about what they’re going through. This is trauma for them. They have to walk around all day with their bags in the freezing cold, you know… Waiting for a shelter bed.

Williams: [00:31:10] You know… They come to talk to us because they don’t know how to handle it! They don’t know how to deal with it themselves! They can’t deal with it on their own. You know, we’re here because we have a place for them to come now and bring other women and say, ‘Look, Anthony… They’re not doing what they said they were going to do with the overflow.’” And that’s important, Lynn. That—that, because of the difficulty, if they see a little bit of light, that’s good. If they can just hear somebody say, “Well, let’s—well we have a space for you to—here’s a place where you can come and address this issue. And these are the people you talk to… “ Just like you did with me and Lou, right? “Oh, these are people you need to talk to. These are the people that make these decisions. They’re the ones that get the money for the shelter beds, Anthony. This is the Continuum of Care who gets HUD funding. Those are the service providers. This is how much money the city gets.”

Williams: [00:32:27] And if you tell them the truth and don’t hide the truth, like someone said, “Well, why do they need to hear about the money?” Because it’s their money!

Lewis: It’s coming in their name.

Williams: Yeah!

Lewis: Body count.

Williams: Yeah. Oh. So, yeah—you know, you get around that, know what I mean? It’s…

Williams: [00:32:50] It’s not easy, man… It’s not easy being homeless. Nobody wants to be. When they say people just—that’s just an excuse for them. You know, [laughs] when I hear people say, “Oh, they just want to be homeless.” You’re saying you just don’t want to deal with homeless people. You’re not—that’s all you’re saying—is you don’t want to deal with homeless people. You’re saying they just want to be out there. No. You’re just saying you don’t want to have anything to do with them being out there. But, you know—you’re not offering anything by saying that you know—they just want to be out there. [Laughs] Do you want to be out there? Would you switch places with them, tomorrow? I mean—you know what I mean?

Williams: [00:33:37] You know, like, the conversations… You know, we learn more and more as we go, with this work. That these myths and these stereotypes are just not true, right? We find out that everybody doesn’t have a substance issue, everybody doesn’t have a mental issue. But now we’re seeing homeless people denied housing, because they’re not chronically homeless! [Pause] Wait a minute—but coordinated access is supposed to help you, and rank and score you, to get to housing, right? Wrong. [Laughs] _It’s not. _

Williams: [00:34:20] [Laughs] It’s discouraged them—people from being… And see, these are the things that we need to let homeless people know! No! Don’t give them that information. You give them this information. You been sleeping in that park? Well, you’re still sleeping in that park. You know what I mean—like homeless is homeless. You know, why would you want me to tell you how many episodes of homelessness I had? Which I had to do, by the way. You know—show that I was homeless in Pennsylvania... Show I was homeless in Baltimore... Show that I was homeless in New York... You know what I mean, Lynn? I had to show all that.

Lewis: To get ranked.

Williams: To get ranked.

Lewis: [00:35:00] I didn’t have to get ranked to get this apartment. I had to kind of beg the ladies controlling the building. [Laughter] Which is kind of funky. But I didn’t have to get ranked. I didn’t have to get a psych eval. Yet if you’re homeless...

Williams: You have to go through all that.

Lewis: You have to go through all that.

Williams: [00:35:20] Drug screen... And then, again… You know, “Well, you don’t expect homeless people to just move into an apartment and… You can’t just expect homeless people to move into an apartment and not burn it down, or torch it, or set the sprinkler systems off three times a year—costing building maintenance or the landlord millions of dollars?” Well, guess what?! That may happen! But that’s not everybody. And everybody shouldn’t be treated that way.

Lewis: If you can live in a tent and survive pushing a shopping cart around

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: You can live in an apartment.

Williams: Right. Thank you. [Laughs] Right.

Lewis: [00:36:18] So, one of the things that, you know—when I was digging through some old stuff today.

Williams: Some really cool stuff.

Lewis: Yeah, some important stuff. Do you want to talk about what some of them are?

Williams: Yeah, I could. So, I definitely remember.

Williams: [00:36:53] There’s this thing about being in the shelters, you can’t sit on—you know, sit on each other’s bed.

Lewis: Mm. Can’t be neighborly?

Williams: No, you’re not allowed to sit on each other’s…

Williams: [00:37:09] So I think I remember—Lewis said, “Ant, sit down, I got something… We need to write something up.” And I sat down on the bed, and I said, “Wait a minute, let me sit on the other bed.” He goes, “Why?!” I said, “Because if security come in, you know, you can get in trouble for sitting on—two guys on the same bed. So, you have to, you know, either stand up.” “That’s just such bullshit.” Right? But no, it’s true.

Williams: [00:37:39] [Pause] So… Yes, I remember this being written.

Lewis: And what is it?

Williams: It’s Picture the Homeless. “We’re going... No. We’re giving the oppositional standpoint or viewpoint on the homeless situation given by the city, the state, national government, or the media. Our viewpoint represents our rights, regardless of race, creed, or color. We refuse to accept being neglected… Our human rights as human beings. By Anthony Williams and Lewis Haggins. January 3, 2000. That’s my date, that’s how I write.

Lewis: Your handwriting.

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: And this is the original mission statement.

Williams: Right, that’s our original mission statement.

Williams: [00:39:04] You know what? I was so angry, when—I think our steering committee wanted to expand the mission statement. [Laughs] I kind of see why now. [Laughs] But I was really angry about that.

Lewis: I know.

Williams: It really bothered me that they wanted to tamper with the mission statement. I think Lou was still alive, we just didn’t have communication with him.

Lewis: He was still alive.

Lewis: [00:39:33] We were at Judson, and we had gone to San Francisco

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: and Emily got so much out of that trip. It was incredible. I think we were there for five days, maybe a week. [Smiles] But one of the things she was saying was that this didn’t say what we wanted. It said what we didn’t want. And so, one of the things updating this was… Emily and I were in Junior’s in Brooklyn. Because we had to go to Brooklyn for a meeting and she didn’t want to go, and I said, “Well, we could go get cheesecake.” [Laughs].

Williams: [Laughs].

Lewis: And we went to Junior’s and had cheesecake. And then we were writing… And then we came back to the office, and you were furious. [Laughter] And the steering committee… I don’t have as clear of a memory with them. But the mission statement is still very similar.

Williams: Yes, it is.

Lewis: It’s still very similar. I think it’s kind of amazing.

Williams: [Pause] Well, nothing was taken away. Everything’s in there.

Lewis: yeah.

Williams: Nothing was ever taken away. That’s what I probably really mean, like... But it’s expanded better. It’s been expanded in a better way. That’s what I’m saying.

Williams: [00:41:15] But I think sometimes we take things personal that we do, and kind of take it—that’s not what we’re really saying or what we really mean, you know… We just want it to mean more. Or we’re growing to a point where the members see more… To be—to give more input. Like, “Don’t Talk About Us, Talk With Us.” Right? That wasn’t always there.

Lewis: No. We came up with that here, with Irma.

Williams: Hmmm.

Lewis: [00:41:54] Because—do you remember when Carlito Rovira from the Young Lords told us we needed colors?

Williams: Oh yeah!

Lewis: And a logo?

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: We did that here. Do you remember that?

Williams: My favorite color was sky-light blue. I don’t know if that’s why. But I guess that is why.

Lewis: You, well you—it might be part of why. But you said the night we were here with Irma, who’s passed away… You said, “They should be black. The colors should be black and blue. Because most homeless people are Black and they’re sleeping outside, and the sky is blue. They’re outside and the sky is blue.”

Williams: Sky is blue… Wow… Yeah… Wow… Yeah.

Lewis: [00:42:50] So, you and Lewis—and this is Lewis’s handwriting.

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: But he put your name first. So, Lewis wrote this by hand.

Williams: Right.

Lewis: And he put your name first, and then his name and he had you date it. And then this next letter has a lot of significance too. Do you want to talk about that?

Williams: Hmmm. So, [reading from the letter] “Mr. Gonzalez, thank you for meeting with us last week. We learned a lot from you, as well as meeting a new friend. Our purpose in writing to you now, is to get permission to use your auditorium for a get-to-know meeting…” No… “A get-to-know question and answer session about Picture the Homeless—to other homeless people... Organizations, the media, and other friends, or foes. Also, to… progress?” Oh, sorry, “Also, to progress our conversation about a bimonthly meeting at CHARAS. Both of these events will be free to the public. So, we are asking you to waive the fee of the rental space.”

Williams: [Pause] We wrote that together! But he did the writing. I was with him though—I signed it.

Lewis: [00:44:33] Yep. And what’s the address? [Smiles] I love it that the [laughs]—I love that.

Williams: Three ninety Ninth Avenue.

Lewis: Mm-hmmm.

Williams: Yeah, that’s very significant. That’s our public mailbox for the homeless in Baltimore and New York City. It’s always been 390 Ninth Avenue… I hate to ask if it still is or not.

Lewis: It’s still there. It’s this little grimy door on the back side of the main post office, yeah.

Williams: It’s still there? Okay, good.

Lewis: I think it’s like an old federal law that the post office has to have a general delivery.

Lewis: [00:45:36] And then the phone... Whose phone number is that?

Williams: My friend Jennifer Roberts’s phone number. We used her number as contact to reach information. That I knew for—I guess at that time maybe almost close to twenty years. She passed away 2011... No, 2010—from cancer, lung cancer.

Williams: [00:46:07] Yes! I remember coming to CHARAS with Lou. “Thank you for meeting with us last week.” I remember going to CHARAS and meeting… And it was Chino [Garcia] and—

Lewis: Gonzalez.

Williams: Gonzalez!

Lewis: He used to do the scheduling.

Williams: Yeah, it was Gonzalez.

Lewis: He’s an older dude.

Williams: Yeah, with a ponytail.

Lewis: Yeah.

Williams: Yes! So, it wasn’t Chino he was writing to. He was writing this to Gonzalez!

Lewis: Because Gonzalez was the scheduler.

Williams: Yeah, that’s right. That’s significant—because yeah, it wasn’t Chino—because I remember us talking to Gonzalez, and then Chino walked in later. Yeah, he came on the scene later.

Lewis: Yeah. Gonzalez would have to run it by Chino. Like these homeless guys want to have a meeting here, you know. He’d run it by him. But that was his role.

Williams: Right, yep, wow, yeah—I remember him. Psshew…

Lewis: [00:47:11] And then Chino said to me, “I met these homeless guys, and they started an organization. And do you want me to see if you can go?” Or something like that.

Williams: [Laughs]. Then I think Chino asked us. Yeah, he did. And I looked at Lou and he looked at me and said, “Yeah.”

Lewis: Friends or foes!

Williams: Yeah. [Laughs].

Lewis: Friends or foes. [Laughter]

Williams: [Laughs] Yep.

Lewis: [00:47:53] What is also really—there’s so many interesting things [smiles] about this letter because it’s… You know, some of the stories in your first interview, you know—we’re talking about the roots of the organization. And so, one of the things that Lewis was inviting you to do—and it’s also in this letter—is deal with the media. And throughout the history of Picture the Homeless, I think Picture the Homeless has done a really good job—including starting with Lewis—of just going directly to the media.

Williams: Right.

Lewis: And saying, you know, like “Hey! We have a point of view. This is what you need to talk about.” And so, the fact that you two put in the letter before there was even a big public meeting, this was a letter to get space for the first public Picture the Homeless meeting. You guys had media in there.

Williams: Yep, we did… Yeah, friends or foe. [Laughter]

Lewis: Lewis: [00:49:05] Did you want foes? [Laughter] It’s like, bring it on!

Williams: That’s Lou!

Lewis: Bring it on.

Williams: [Laughs] Yeah… Right. Because he wasn’t backing down. Even if Giuliani sent his people. He wasn’t—he just wouldn’t back down. I could see… I guess that’s the fire that... I just kept seeing that fire in him, man. He even… You know, Jennifer was a bartender, and this guy was giving her a hard time. I had to pull Lou out of the bar—because was going to hurt him, hurt that guy, yeah. It was bad. Because he had a temper. He also was very pissed off about not getting help from the United Way—no, from the Red Cross.

Lewis: Yeah. Because he was burned out.

Williams: [00:49:59] Right—fire… And, you know, he was mad. I remember hearing him say, you know [imitates voice] “I was in a disaster! I was in a fire. They couldn’t help me? They could not help me. The Red Cross could not help me.” [Pause] He had to go to detox.

Lewis: Lewis: [00:50:29] So, before we started recording you had mentioned Russell.

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: And Russell was in Bellevue with you and Lou, right?

Williams: Yes!

Lewis: So, we were talking about the shopping carts and how powerful it is when folks that are street homeless start coming to organizing meetings. And then I had mentioned Emily, and you said, “What about Russell?” So, talk about Russell a little bit.

Williams: Russell that was in Bellevue with us, or Emily’s Russell?

Lewis: Or both.

Williams: [00:51:06] Okay. So, the Russell I met was Lou’s roommate. He slept across from him. And he would kind of like heckle us, when we were in the room. Like he would, “That ain’t going to work. Ah! I watched the HMO do that.” Right? The homeless—you know... “That ain’t going to work!”

Lewis: The UHO, that Steve was with?

Williams: Yeah. He said, “I’ve seen the UHO [United Homeless Organization], that’s not going to work.” You know, he would just, “No, that’s not going to, no, no, it’s just…” And so, we just kept… But Lewis was persistent. He just kept writing, and, you know—we didn’t get into an all-out debate and fight about it… But later he came around! Not for the—well, you know, he was impressed, that’s why he came around. But he was even more impressed, because I was making money too—got to put that in there.

Williams: [00:52:29] Now Russell—Emily’s Russell, was interesting—now that’s the interesting story. You know… Russ—I don’t think she ever brought Russell to any of our meetings.

Lewis: Or maybe he wouldn’t come.

Williams: Or he was just difficult in that way. He had a business to run, and a corner to hold down—with a crew and cast of one-hundred people. [Laughs] Okay? And I know this because I spent a lot of time with him, with Russell. He had a table. He would sell incense.

Lewis: Oils.

Williams: And oils. So, he had a business. And everyone knew him in the neighborhood. Even with the—and also the books.

Lewis: [00:53:24] And where was he? So, for people that don’t know.

Williams: So, he was on MacDougal and West Third, right next to the parking lot. There was a little stair, leading to nowhere. [Laughs] It was a stair that actually led really to nowhere. Then you had the little restaurant above it. And he would—they would sit there and make money. Sometime a musician or two would come by and play... and they’d leave money. [unclear] would come by occasionally and play and leave money—people give money.

Williams: [00:54:06] You know, we… That was Emily’s friend. And she would protect him no matter what. They were very close, and knew each other for years... And he ran his business every day. [Laughs] He was always running his business every day. They had the table. They had the books. He had the incense. He would sleep around different areas downtown. No, he didn’t have a home, to call his own. But they—he would stay at certain churches on the porches, and he was fine being there.

Lewis: And doorways. I used to see him sleeping in a doorway

Williams: Yeah.

Lewis: on Third Street sometimes.

Williams: Yeah—doorways, yep. Yep. Yeah, because everybody knew Russell, over that way. He was a big guy too; he wasn’t like a little guy. But he seemed so little, in an innocent way, although he was a really big… So yeah, that was Emily’s friend. Oh man—ah—yeah... And I think—you know, you can’t elect… That was her friend, man… I mean, you know... I cannot—I’m not going to go there. Because a lot of people will go there and say, “Well, yeah, but she was using him.” No. They just—they both had an agreement and that’s how they lived—dealt with each other, in those terms.

Williams: [00:56:04] And the reason why I know that is because when I invited Emily to come out to Brooklyn after I popped the lock on that building, she—the first thing she said to me was, “Can Russell come?” And I was like, “Ah… I don’t know about that, man...” And she goes, “Well, if Russell can’t come, I ain’t coming!” I said, “All right, Russell can come.” And she… And believe it or not, they came. And they stayed there the majority of their time. And they still went to work. [Laughs]  But yeah... And then of course, you know… She—they were able to bring more bullies from… You know, that was a whole crew though.

Williams: [00:56:50] And, you know, she was terrified when—I forget his name. He passed away. But she invited him, and you could hear them arguing and fighting, and... Yeah… Justice! Supreme!

Lewis: Oh, God.

Williams: Supreme! Big guy.

Lewis: He was a big guy.

Williams: Yeah. Supreme. Yes.

Lewis: He came up to 116th a couple times too, but...

Williams: Yeah, Supreme.

Lewis: Whatever… Do you know whatever happened to him?

Williams: Yeah, he passed away.

Lewis: He did?

Williams: Yeah, they found him dead on a—matter of fact, he was—he… They found him dead over there, in the street. I mean, you know—on a chair, like asleep, when he was dead.

Lewis: [00:57:36] I was—he was one of… Tonight in the celebration, and I was saying how people that are street homeless are the ones in Picture the Homeless that really were the ones talking about the vacant buildings

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: I was picturing him in my mind in a general meeting in Judson with the folding chairs in a circle

Williams: Yeah.

Lewis: Because he would talk about vacant buildings a lot.

Williams: [00:58:07] Yeah, he was sharp… A bully, but sharp. And smart—but he was not the brains behind the operation, but kind of like the enforcer behind the organization. [Laughs] But we all have our role, right—to play, you know, in situations. So, you know—I got to know him, but I also didn’t—I really didn’t dig him all that tough. And Russell brought him, so... And Emily resented that, the fact that Russell brought Supreme to the house, because she knew that with Supreme there, she would get cut. [Laughs]

Williams: [00:59:00] You know, stuff happens, you know—yeah. But that’s just drama that happens when we’re living amongst each other in a certain situation that, you know—survival of the fittest. Or if we let him come in, then we won’t be able to get what we continue to be getting. Or if we let that one come in—no, that wouldn’t be a good idea. But we can let this one in, because this one has resources. But you can’t let this one in because he doesn’t bring resources, but he takes more. So, you know—all those things are like in the mainstream! Everything we’re talking about is the same thing that mainstream people do! It ain’t no—it’s no different than—

Lewis: Exactly.

Williams: [00:59:50] Right? It’s no different what homeless people do than what people do in the mainstream. The only problem is that when you talk about the street homeless in the tents, then their activities are done outside in in public view, because you don’t have a wall or a front door to say, “Hey! You don’t know what I’m doing in here.” [Laughs].

Lewis: That’s right.

Williams: [Laughs]

Lewis: And I didn’t need a psych eval to get my apartment. [Smiles] So, you really don’t know what—

Williams: [01:00:19] Doing, yeah. [Laughs] Yeah, Lynn, wow, this stuff is amazing… I always try to figure out—refine this. But you’re good. I was never good with my stuff. I just accumulate and let it build up and then discard it. But I got my own place now! So… You know…

Lewis: Well, you have your own place. So now you get the stuff. [Smiles]

Williams: [Laughs] I get the stuff.

Lewis: The Picture the Homeless archives.

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: Thank God for photocopiers.

Williams: Yes. Wow.

Lewis: [01:00:33] But Picture the Homeless… You know, it’s not so much that I’m good, it’s that—you know, we did good things. And maybe I’ll take a little credit for knowing we should save everything. But it wasn’t only on me. Because, you know, it was… It became part of the culture of the organization to save things. Because homeless folks need to know how this happened, so that it can keep going. Or new groups get started.

Williams: [01:01:39] Right. Yes. And, you know… You have to give credit where credit should be. And I cannot say how much, you know—important you were, and you still are, but how important in the beginning, you were for… For me in a lot of ways. You know, Lou was like—you know, this is for you, and I see it clearly. Where is it? We did that. It’s clearly right there. I mean I can’t say anymore. And it really wasn’t by me. [Laughs] I mean he; you know—that’s when—by him listening to my story and listening to me talk about myself, is why he felt so strongly about Picture the Homeless.

Williams: [01:02:56] But without you, it just wouldn’t be able to withstand itself, with the resources that was needed to even keep up, to even keep me strong enough—till we had a strong enough body of homeless folks, the steering committee, to be able to make crucial decisions in emergency situations, right? Or in a crisis. We had enough people and enough energy and enough strength, to keep things moving, right? No matter if a plug was pulled or not.

Williams: [01:03:50] So, it is important that… Did I have a problem with the steering committee? [Laughs] I’m trying to think. No, I never did. I never did. I think—I think I had feelings about the steering committee. But I think I had feelings about a lot of things. Money—in the beginning. Not-for-profit, really I had a problem with that. [Laughs] For some reason I just…Because I talked to Lewis in depth. Me and Lewis would talk in depth, way before we met you, Lynn... And he would say, “What are we going to do for money, Anthony? I know a lot of people.” I said, “Well, we don’t need any money. The city has plenty much freaking money.” Come on, two-thousand dollars a month for a shelter bed? Don’t you think the city has enough money—to deal with this situation? Ah… So, he was like, “Well, I guess I—are you sure?” He goes, “Well, we’re going to need some kind of resources. Let’s go—how you feel about Sharpton?” [Laughs]. I said, “Oh, you mean the guy that used the N-word all the time.” He goes, “Yeah, but he’s changed that in a lot of ways.” He goes, “Would you like to…” But again, he didn’t disclose the relationship he had with him... Just later, you know, he told me—by people being part of the National Action Network.

Williams: [01:05:03] But… There’s people that are put in your path, that are purposely put in your path, to fulfill a certain mission. I’m not going to a religious thing about this, Lynn. But there are people that are put in our paths for good reason. Because this, you know—this is almost like a dream that I had, a very very long time ago that came true. And I don’t know why. Because people are put in your path! Lou was put in my path. You was put in our path. And we all stayed in that path for the time we were meant to stay in that role, and in that path. [Pause]

Williams: [01:06:26] I mean, you have succeeded eighteen—you know, you have taken this eighteen years of work... You have taken eighteen years of work. I cannot… I cannot—there’s no way I can’t credit to you for that. And there’s no way I could express more than anybody to you that it’s just was so—you were so valuable, and you’re still so valuable to me.

Williams: [01:07:01] And, you know… I’ll never forget any of the good and the bad. I will never forget how important you were to this movement that you wanted to start—and that’s what you were looking for. Because I remember you telling me that, “This is what I’ve been looking for.” This is something that you really wanted to do. Now, again—I don’t know everything, right? I just… That’s what you said. You want to work with us. And I said, “Lou, she wants to work with us.” He goes, “Well, just keep an eye on her, Anthony, I think she’s with the coalition…” [Laughs].

Williams: [01:07:46] But… You know—attraction helps too, in working and getting to know people, getting to like people. But then it even surpasses, and things can stay platonic and just as strong, and stay that way. And it doesn’t mess up anything, and it doesn’t, you know—hurt anything either. But it’s very important you know—to let you know how much I love you and then how much, you know—you’re credited. That I’m giving you… I’m giving you that credit. Because no one else can really give you that. I can. I can really give you that much. That you’ve done such an amazing job at this organization. To the point where… You know, what did they say at the North Star Fund—no, at the New York Foundation? [Imitates voice] “Most start-up not-for-profits doesn’t make it past five years…”

Lewis: Yeah, they said that.

Williams: [01:08:52] That these are things we have to follow... Right? And—did all right! We held on… I mean I held on, but you held on even more. I held on. But you held on even more. And I was still able to come back and hold on, because you left room that I could still hold on to without feeling that I didn’t have a place to hold on to, you know.

Lewis: You’re the cofounder, so nobody else could ever take that place.

Williams: No.
 
Lewis: [01:09:37] And, you know, now I’m not there anymore. And I think that, you know—it’s  one of the reasons why it’s important that we do this is because most of those homeless folks, and even the staff in that room tonight, have no idea about this history. And so, if you’re saying to somebody, “Oh, we want to pass a law…” Or “We want to end police harassment.” If people don’t know what else has been done by the group—or even that it started from nothing except a dream? How are they going to believe that they can pass a law? Where, if they know, “Well, I’m part of an organization that was started by these two homeless guys.

Lewis: [01:10:34] And… Then other people came. I wasn’t the only one.

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: But I did stay. That if we could do all the things we did, even create an organization, then if I’m somebody coming into a group like that, I’m going to think, “Well, if they could do that, what else can we do?” And so, it’s really crucial. And when I tell people that Picture the Homeless didn’t start as a project of some other organization, that you guys thought of this, and you found other people that were like-minded… And that nobody gave us anything. Well, Judson gave office space, but it wasn’t just so easy.

Williams: [01:11:29] No. Matter of fact, it was iffy. [Laughter] Matter of fact, I was cursing up and down outside the church like, “Fuck ’em…” Because we don’t—because Trinity told us no, we couldn’t use their church, so it was like fuck all the rest of them. But Lou was persistent. Came outside and said, “Hey, wants to meet with us.” Did I say that in there? [unclear] But yeah—like, really we walked across town because Chino suggested, “Maybe you guys should talk to Judson.” And Lou was like, “Come on, Anthony, let’s go to Judson.” I said, “Hell no. Fuck them, fuck all those religious people, forget it, I don’t want nothing to do with, no.” He says, “Come on, Anthony, man, calm down. Let’s walk over to Judson.” And we did. And I still didn’t go in the church, I stayed on the corner. [Laughs] By the little restaurant. And then he came out and says, “Anthony! We’re in, we got a meeting with the Rev.”

Lewis: He was good. Lewis was good.

Williams: [Laughs]

Lewis: He was very good.

Williams: Yeah.

Lewis: And he a—he had such a good vibe—like a kind

Williams: Mm-hmmm.

Lewis: vibe.

Lewis: [01:12:46] Now there’s a press clipping over there, another one, from San Francisco, and that’s—that’s when we went, right? With Emily, and...

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: Who else went? Who else was—there was six of us.

Williams: With John?

Lewis: John Rhodes. The guy that used all his week’s supply of methadone on the plane. [Laughs].

Williams: Yeah, who was that—what was his name?

Lewis: I don’t remember. [Laughter]. I was crazy.

Williams: Oh yeah.

Lewis: Emily was so mad.

Williams: Oh, did Chris go? No. Chris couldn’t go. He couldn’t go.

Lewis: No, he couldn’t go.

Williams: Right, but his friend.

Lewis: It was his friend.

Williams: Yeah. [Laughs]

Lewis: That was a shit show right there.

Williams: And then… Yeah, we had to find him before the plane took off. [Laughs]. Because he was in such a daze.

Lewis: It was terrible. [Laughs]. Oh God. That’s how we started out the trip.

Williams: Yeah… Oh, what-you-call-him didn’t go, did he? Chino’s friend. But he would come around—the poet.

Lewis: Carlos Troche.

Williams: Troche!

Lewis: Yeah. Carlos Troche. No. He didn’t go. I can’t remember.

Williams: No, but he did come around though. He came to one or two things.

Lewis: He would come to the Bronx all the time.

Williams: Oh, okay.

Lewis: Yeah! I think he got his college degree finally. Yeah.

Williams: Wow.

Lewis: He worked really hard.

Williams: Wow.

Lewis: [01:14:26] So yeah. So, we went out there, and then you’re looking at an article. What happened there?

Williams: Cash for care? Something along those lines. Cash or care… It was San Francisco who got—I think they got the most cash assistance, than any other city in the country. And that amount of money was in jeopardy, by a guy running on the platform—on city council. But running on a platform to become mayor, as to take away the cash assistance. Because he felt that it did no good. It did more harm than good to the homeless folks. They don’t need cash. They can just get food stamps and that’s it.

Williams: [01:15:30] And he had a whole rationale behind it. And it left a lot of the organizations kind of afraid and concerned. It just—it was a lot of concern. A lot of people were staying in the hotels in the Tenderloin that was getting cash assistance. And for any jeopardy, or for anything that happened to that cash assistance, it wouldn’t be—it wouldn’t be good. And we knew that just as well as being New Yorkers. Yep. And so, we followed him… So, we followed him! Right? We followed him from City Hall…

Lewis: [01:16:18] Do you remember how you and Emily got in this press conference thing? Do you remember what happened?

Williams: No, not really.

Lewis: So, we were there with—this guy is Angelo from Coalition for the Homeless in San Francisco.

Williams: yep.

Lewis: And this guy, I think his name is Larry and he was with POWER [People Organized to Win Employment Rights]

Williams: Uh-huh.

Lewis: if I’m not mistaken and passed away.

Williams: Yeah, POWER.

Lewis: And Gavin Newsom was having a press conference in, like some kind of transitional housing place.

Williams: Yeah. Yep.

Lewis: So, somebody in there left the side door open and about one hundred of us ran up those back steps and crashed his press conference. And Gavin Newsom ran down the hall. And then members of the organizations took over the press conference, and he was saying he was going to do—clean up San Francisco like Giuliani cleaned up New York and you and Emily were like, “Let us tell you about Giuliani in New York.”

Williams: Giuliani. Right! Now I remember.

Lewis: [01:17:21] Mm-hmmm. I think there’s some quotes in here of you guys. And then he wanted to meet with us. And so, we walked to City Hall… See, it says Picture the Homeless—POWER organizes action... Along with many welfare recipients there were people from Coalition on Homelessness, Homeless Prenatal, General Assistance Advocacy Program, Picture the Homeless from New York… So, it says, “Finally we get the cell phone call telling us that Newsom has arrived. In we march...”

Williams: [Laughs].

Lewis: Yeah, because he made a plan...

Williams: He was going to come and go to New York!

Lewis: Mm-hmmm. Once…

Williams: No, he just came back from New York!

Lewis: On a fact finding… [Smiles]

Williams: Right. [Laughs]. That’s it. I remember that part, yeah.

Lewis: [01:18:22] So here it says, “One spokesman from...” It says, “Paint a picture”, instead of Picture the Homeless, “Directly addressed the new fad of idealizing ex-New York mayor Giuliani’s treatment of homelessness. ‘Giuliani made jobs like selling oil and clothing or drawing people for money illegal.’” So, that must have been Emily talking.

Williams: Yeah, that was Emily, yeah. [Laughter]

Lewis: Yeah. With the oil.

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: [01:18:54] So anyway, so do you remember

Williams: Yes!

Lewis: anything else about that trip? Why did six of us go out there, together? Why do you think it was important that we go as a group?

Williams: [Pause] If I’m not mistaken, it was civil rights training. The Copwatch training… Because they had a lot to offer Picture the Homeless. They had a lot of things that they worked on and were very strong with. And I think it was important for us to see—for us to see. Instead of me seeing it, I wanted everybody else to see it too. I don’t think it wouldn’t have been—it’s no fun... It wasn’t just a fun thing to do the first time we went—I mean first time I went. Because I knew that it was—because I saw the importance of the bounty, you know—the shopping cart bounty hunters. Just the makeup of the policing on the homelessness and seeing how homeless folks were treated by the police, in person. And I think it was important that they got to see an organization that was run by homeless and formerly homeless folks—to see that they could actually—that they’re actually doing it. Whatever it—

Lewis: Whatever it is. It can be done! [Laughter]
 
Williams: [01:20:42] It could be done! Yes—and it was being done! They won a lawsuit! That was one of the most important pieces I think I took out of that. They actually got the mayor’s office and the city to pay for people’s belongings being taken—illegally and thrown in the trash.

Lewis: And they had amnesty days for people to clear warrants. I always thought that was hot.

Williams: Wow, yeah… Wow.

Lewis: [01:21:15] And the office was really full of homeless people, holding down different

Williams: Positions.

Lewis: Jobs.

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: Positions.

Williams: Yep. Yep. Yep… Wow.

Lewis: [01:21:33] Why do you think it’s important for people to see things for themselves? Like homeless people specifically. Why did everyone need to go and see instead of you going by yourself and then just reporting back?

Williams: It’s important for them to see—and see homeless people—doing the work. [Laughs] Not relying on experts to do the work for them… Not relying on service providers… Not relying on the system... But them changing—working to change the system. They were actually doing what Lou was talking about. Changing the system. Right? How it operates. Right? Changing the system.

Williams: [01:22:30] Hey! Stop throwing away our property! It’s a systematic change had to come. Right? And the systematic change was, you know—if you throw this stuff away you’re going to replace it, you’re going to pay them for the hardship that you’re giving them. _Civil rights, work. _Like, you know—policy—stuff that’s changing the way—changing the way… And homeless people having power to change, their likes and their dislikes. Actually, them being able to change it. Not waiting for someone to change it for them. And it’s very important for homeless people to see other homeless folks doing that same work. Although—and even if they never did that work, maybe it would give us some more inspiration to keep up the work. I truly believe that. That it would be more crucial, more beneficial.

Williams: [01:23:40] Just like when HON came to Baltimore. They told me. They tell me about it all the time.

Lewis: Yeah, they came up.

Williams: Tony Simmons, all of them. Every last one of them I work with now. Know that, right? Every last one of them I work with.

Lewis: They’re great. They had a lot of great questions. They were like on a field trip, like a fact-finding mission.

Williams: [01:24:03] Oh yeah, they went back and wrote their report! So yeah, it’s very important that if you’re saying that you’re working with homeless people, but homeless people aren’t working to change anything but you’re working to change things for homeless people, then I don’t think that’s a good scenario. Because I think it’s more important for homeless people to change the way these policies are written—for themselves. Because they put the work into it. They’re the ones that do it.

Williams: [01:24:51] You know, you can have a Coalition for the Homeless, like a New York City Coalition for the Homeless. Where it’s just basically one representation or three representations, saying this is—and then people come to them for their—just their only input. But we can give many sides of input, you know. The street homeless, the tents, the people with disabilities, the people in the shelters, the people that are part of the continuum of care, the people with sexual orientation issues, people that are gay, straight, transgender. You know, we cross the lines on all... You know, we have people involved on all areas of homelessness. Just like people in all the other populations. There just… There’s those that have homes and there’s those who don’t. And it’s no difference than them being, deserving a home—just like they deserve a home! [Pause] Yeah. It’s late.

Lewis: Yep. All right, so we’re going to wrap up. Because it’s late. And you

Williams: [01:24:11] You think we got what we needed?

Lewis: especially you… I think that… There’s no way that when we have these conversations, there’s not going to be lessons in them.

Williams: That’s true.

Lewis: You know, it’s not because we know everything and we’re arrogant. But we know this. [Laughs]

Williams: [Laughs] We know this, yeah.

Lewis: We do know this.

Williams: Wow. Gets deeper and deeper. With this it gets even deeper and deeper and goes— wow.

Lewis: [01:26:43] And you know, as we talk, and we talk about like Supreme is passed away or this press… This is the first action I think that anybody had against Bloomberg, January 14, 2002. Because people were saying, groups were saying, “Oh, we have to give him a chance, he’s better than Giuliani.”

Williams: He’s kinder and gentler, it’s...

Lewis: The first thing he did was go after homeless people with the “Public pests... New war on public pests.” Remember that?

Williams: Yeah. Wow.

Lewis: [01:27:21] And, so, here’s Jeremiah who’s gone. “Homeless people will not be the scapegoat for the inadequacies of the former and current administration addressing the problems of housing and decent jobs with living wages.” Jeremiah said that.

Williams: Yep.

Lewis: Not an expert in a suit.

Williams: Nope. Matter of fact, he was suffering from working down in the World Trade Center.

Lewis: And so—yeah! So, we’ll wrap up for tonight. Thank you.