Anika Paris

Lewis: [00:00:00] Good afternoon.
 
Paris: Hi!
 
Lewis: I’m Lynn Lewis, here with Anika Paris and we are about to start our interview for the Picture the Homeless Oral History Project, and it’s August 15th, 2019, yes.
 
Anika: Hello! Hi! [Laughter]
 
Lewis: Did I mess that up?
 
Anika: No, no, it was perfect. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: All right, how are you?
 
Anika: Pretty good. I was enjoying some delicious fried rice. We just had a nice catch-up about what’s been, like, going on with the oral history project. It looks really cool, yeah. It’s a nice summer day.
 
Lewis: And now, you’re going to be in it.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: We’re going to find a little bit out—more out about you, Anika, and then we’re going to talk about Picture the Homeless and your relationship to Picture the Homeless.
 
Paris: Okay.
 
Lewis: [00:01:00] So, tell me where you’re from.
 
Paris: Oh, I grew up in Syracuse, New York. I was actually born in Camden, New Jersey if that is relevant. [Laughs] But I spent most of my childhood [silver bracelets twinkling] up until I left for college in Syracuse, New York. I went to NYU for history and Africana studies, I—hmm… My parents are like left-progressives, I would say. There is—I hated Syracuse when I was growing up there. But every time that I’ve gone back, I’ve come to appreciate a little bit more of its like—radical history.
 
Paris: [00:01:58] So, there is—the Syracuse Peace Council is like, a big organization of activists who do a lot of like, anti-war organizing. That can be its own longer story, but I say that to say that I did have some familiarity with like left, and radical movements when I came to the city. And it definitely informed everything that I did or that I have done in my adult life, yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:02:36] And what was—what was… Do you have—like, a favorite childhood memory or something that you’d want to share
 
Paris: Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: that’s kind of descriptive of what your life was like?
 
Paris: Huh…. Sure. So, [smiles] there was a street—I grew up on the east side of Syracuse and there was a street—also on the east side. There is a street also on the east side called Westcott. And Westcott was sort of like the domain of the hippies. It was like—people would refer to Westcott Nation and there was—probably still is—like an annual Westcott street fair that was a lot of crafts, vendors, a lot of community organizations, a lot of food, and definitely that like Westcott Nation identity was throughout. So, a lot of like—there was a major social justice orientation and some of the softer hippy peace and love type stuff.
 
Paris: [00:04:02] But I remember there was sidewalk chalk and I wrote, “Eracism Now!” with like—there was a pencil eraser erasing part of it. And I think I had seen that phrase on like, an episode of In Living Color, or something like that. Like, it was not my own creation, but it got written up in the newspaper. [Laughs] And I remember that street fair and I also remember my Mom being really proud of my like—being in the newspaper for that. And I feel like that was maybe emblematic of how I was just picking up bits and pieces of information from the world around me and also a little bit how I was out to please, maybe? Yeah. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: And how old were you?
 
Paris: I would’ve been eight or nine, yeah.
 
Lewis: And this was in the—
 
Paris: So, that would have been—I was born in ‘84, so that would’ve been like, ‘92 or ‘93.
 
Lewis: [00:05:22] Mm-Hmmmm. And what brought you to—well obviously, you came to study but why did you choose NYU and New York City?
 
Paris: So, my dad grew up in New York. My mom’s from Antigua, which is a small island in the Caribbean. You know. [Laughs] And she came to the U.S. when she married my dad. But we didn’t really travel. We really only traveled where we had people. And so, I just grew up coming to the city. Like, it always felt like home. This is where most of my family in the U.S. was. And New York sort of always seemed like the center of the universe to me. I just have really fond memories of coming throughout my childhood.
 
Paris: [00:06:24] And I think every school that I applied to was in New York, with the exception of Sarah Lawrence. And my dad teaches at SU. Like, I could have gone to S.U. for free but I had zero interest in going there. I think I applied to NYU, I applied to Barnard, I applied to Sarah Lawrence… Oh! And—well, no… Yeah, right—I got a full scholarship to Wells College, which is an all-women’s college in upstate New York. And in my head I got the scholarship but like—didn’t apply. But I don’t know if that’s possible. But yeah, there was no question to me as to where I wanted to be. Like, I just wanted to be in New York City.
 
Lewis: [00:07:23] And what does your dad teach?
 
Paris: Sociology, yeah
 
Lewis: I met him at the—the Labor Day Parade.
 
Paris: Yeah, and I think he had probably come there—maybe not. Was that the first time you met him?
 
Lewis: I think I met him at the office.
 
Paris: Yeah—no, I feel like he came through the office. And I remember my aunt came through the office once, too.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah, it was always—I have fond memories of your family, but I think they’re just things that you told me.
 
Paris: Word. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Not that I actually would have known otherwise. [Smiles]
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis:  [00:08:01] And so, how was college for you? How was NYU?
 
Paris: Ummmmmmmm. I really—I wanted to be in the city, so it was… And I also—I think I’m a pretty independent person. And I was also just very excited to be living on my own. So, in terms of like—just my experience of being in the world, I really loved being at NYU. In terms… Yeah! I really enjoyed it. I have a lot of regrets about my academic performance. [Laughs] But that seems like a [long pause] like, my experience of living on my own, being on my own schedule, being able to go to shows, being able to explore my own interests, meeting people from all over… Definitely like, the social aspects of it—those are really foregrounded in my memory of that time.
 
Paris: [00:09:16] And I think like, while I was there, I also understood that that was what was the most important to me, [laughs] as well. And I will say—I mean like, I think I’m pretty self-critical as well, so I didn’t do badly but I think I was just like—I wasn’t focused on my studies and I—yeah, yeah. I did a thesis that was like, an interesting topic but it was really bad, so… [Laughs]
 
Lewis: It’s probably not as bad as you think. [Smiles]
 
Paris: I think it was, but… [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [00:09:50] What kind of shows were you going to?
 
Paris: Well, I’m a rap fan. I was definitely a rap fan then. If you catch my Mom on the right day, she might still tell you the story that I went… So, they have like parents’ weekends for freshmen parents. And so, there was this record label called Def Jux, Definitive Jux. I’m going to nerd out for—whatever, it’s not even that nerdy! But [laughs] there was this rap group, called Company Flow. It was El-P [Jaime Meline], Big Jus, and Mr. Len. Mr. Len was the D.J. and El-P and Big Jus were the rappers. And El-P is now half of Run the Jewels. But Company Flow was sort of like a… I don’t know, they were a big deal in underground rap. Like, they would do performances on Stretch [Bartos] and Bobbito’s [Garcia] show and were… Yeah sort of, like—I don’t know, it was the mid-nineties, you know—like a particular era of underground rap or whatever—just like… There was a lot going on in the rap world in the mid-nineties.
 
Paris: [00:11:30] Anyway, Company Flow called it quits and El-P started this record label, Def Jux—which I was super into. And so, [laughs] El-P released a bunch of solo albums on Def Jux and there is also a rapper from Boston named Mr. Lif [Jeffrey Haynes]. He released a couple albums. This rapper, Aesop Rock [Ian Matthias Bavitz]—there were a bunch of Def Chicks rappers. Oh, Murs [Nicholas Carter]… Anyway, there is a Def Chicks showcase the night of like, parents’ weekend. And I was really excited about it. I was a freshman. I think it was like pretty early in the semester, too. Like, it might have been late August, early September. It was no—no later than like the end of September.
 
Paris: [00:12:37] And I just knew that I had to go. And I didn’t have tickets, like hadn’t gotten tickets before, hadn’t gotten tickets in advance. And I was visiting with my parents for parents’ weekend and then I dipped out early. I don’t think I fully explained what was going on, but I went to the Bowery Ballroom to wait to get tickets. And I remember I met Mr. Lif, and I met El-P, [laughs] because I was there so early. But yeah, that was like a big show that I was really into. I also—so… I would—I would have to think about it—like off the top of my head, I can’t remember other shows that I went to.
 
Paris: [00:13:25] But I do remember—this was before the ban on cigarettes in public places was in effect. And I remember going out and coming back and like just reeking of cigarette smoke and that being like, yeah—like a big shift in my experience. Like, yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Reeking of cigarettes. And then when that ban went into effect being, like, “Oh, this is a thing.” Yeah.
 
Lewis: It used to be like that when you used to go dancing or go in any kind of space like that—a bar, anything… You would just—people would be smoking everywhere.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so, this was in the nineties.
 
Paris: No, well… So, that would have been like 2—that would have been 2002, yeah.
 
Lewis: So, post-Giuliani?
 
Paris: Yeah! Yeah. I don’t think I was here for Giuliani—like, I remember Giuliani because all my family was here, and I remember one of my aunts just being like, “He’s the Gestapo!” But, yeah, I think once I got here, Bloomberg was in effect.
 
Lewis: [00:14:36] So, when you were at NYU in 2002, Picture the Homeless was at Judson  [Memorial Church].
 
Paris: Word. Word!
 
Lewis: So, we were neighbors.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And we didn’t know each other. [Smiles]
 
Paris: Yeah. I lived at—excuse me—there is a dorm still on Third Avenue between 11th [Street] and 12th [Street]. So, I always felt like—I mean, my classes were over there but I always felt like I was at a bit of a remove from the Washington Square area. Like, it was a trek, you know? [Smiles] Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:15:16] And so, after college, what did you end up doing?
 
Paris: I was, like… I did a bunch of stuff. Which is like—I don’t know, I feel like I have not stopped doing a bunch of stuff. I worked at a summer camp... So, this is sort of the bridge, but I was active with Books Through Bars NYC, which is a project that’s still ongoing that sends books—free books to people in prison. Yeah, there is—when I was still in Syracuse, there were people who were peripherally like part of the Westcott Nation who had talked about creating a books to prisoners’ project. And I remember being part of conversations about it. But it sort of never really got off the ground. Or at least it didn’t—you know, during my senior year of high school.  
 
Paris: [00:16:27] But when I came to New York… So, Books Through Bars NYC I think was… There are a number of books to prisoners’ projects around the country and I think—I can’t remember if the one in Philly—I think the one in Philly was like the first one that was formally organized the way Books Through Bars was. And I think they had the—yeah, I think that’s the case. I think they had the same name.
 
Paris: [00:17:01] But when I got to New York, it was, like, oh… And they had already been—so, Books Through Bars, NYC—sorry—operated out of ABC No Rio, which is as you know, but for the future listeners to this, a community center on the Lower East Side. It was one of a number of buildings on the Lower East Side that was like—I don’t know if it was actually squatted but the building had been abandoned and then artists and activists had taken it over.
 
Paris: [00:17:44] So, ABC No Rio was a community space that had… It was three floors—four floors. And Books Through Bars was in there, Food Not Bombs was in there. There was a ‘zine library that shared the same space with Books Through Bars. So it was these like—this librarian incubator sort of, [laughs] where like left-radical folks who were in the city at the time—there was a performance space on the first floor and there was a hardcore collective that booked hardcore, and punk shows every Saturday. There’s always a hardcore matinee on Saturdays, there’s a darkroom, a computer lab, a silk-screening lab. Why did I? Oh, right! Okay, so there were [smiles] a bunch of punk kids who were around ABC No Rio who were active in projects at ABC No Rio. And there was a woman who hired a bunch of punk kids/kids who were around ABC No Rio to work at her summer camp. Her name was Science Teacher Sarah. And so, I worked at Science Teacher Sarah’s summer camp the summer after I graduated.
 
Paris: [00:19:16] And then, I worked at the Civilian Complaint—well no—I worked at the Fortune Society as a court report writer in their Alternatives to Incarceration program, which was cool, until it wasn’t. It was a really male environment. I just got tired of dealing with dudes. And yeah, word—I just got tired. [Laughs] And I quit the Fortune Society and then was sort of floating for a little bit. And then, I worked at the CCRB [Civilian Complaint Review Board] as an investigator. And I kind of got fired from the CCRB—I was not officially fired but didn’t make it off of probation. And I think when—so, that was like, 2008 that I was fired from the CCRB, and the economy was just, I don’t know—tanking. It was really hard to find a job. But I think I was also—I don’t know, I was figuring things out—is like the best way to put it or at least the shortest way to put it. [Smiles] And I think I was looking for work and still very active with Books Through Bars.
 
Paris: [00:20:52] And I was also—from when I was an undergrad, there was an Anarchist People of Color organization that sort of functioned as more of a Listserv or at least, I think? So APOC, Anarchist People of Color I think had, many lives. And when I became involved with it, it was mostly a Listserv but there were people who were like—I think sort of in this neighborhood or maybe—no, I think maybe more Manhattanville, the really good number of folks... Anyway, this is also off-topic.
 
Paris: [00:21:44] Oh! Okay, word... [Laughs] So, I think it was through APOC that I became aware of a lot that PTH was taking over on like, 114th [Street], was that—
 
Lewis: 115 and
 
Paris: 115, yes.
 
Lewis: Madison [Avenue].
 
Paris: Word! And so, I remember—so, Brandon King was the [Picture the Homeless] civil rights organizer. And Joe Jordan, who I was like—have like—a complicated relationship with, but we were the tightest of friends, for a very long time and we were just becoming friends. We both went to NYU, but I think he was a year or two above me. Like, we didn’t really know each other at NYU.
 
Lewis: Brandon?
 
Paris: No, no.
 
Lewis: Joe.
 
Paris: Joe. Brandon went to Hampton University
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: I think, yeah. So [pause] man, I keep on losing my place in the story.
 
Lewis: It’s okay.
 
Paris: Joe. Oh well, right... Brandon was the civil rights organizer and Joe was a volunteer—just, like—
 
Lewis: He was around.
 
Paris: rah-rah, yeah. He was “with the shits”, as the kids say.
 
Paris: [00:23:16] So, Joe was my friend, I knew Brandon and I think they had posted—I think Brandon had posted something to the APOC Listserv about this action to take over the lot. And I went and I was really sold on the organization after that. It was like, yeah! There is all this vacant property [laughs] and… I mean, New York has really gone in a direction that’s not necessarily surprising but, I think [long pause]. I don’t know. At that time it was nowhere near as bad as it is now in terms of gentrification and just neighborhoods being totally whitewashed, and storefronts being left vacant and then when they finally get occupants it’s like a Citibank or something like that.
 
Paris: [00:24:26] But yeah, PTH just really seemed like it was the vanguard and—of like housing and… Housing is one thing, but also just the tactics that were being used. I was like, “All right, these are the people who I need to be getting with.” And I started volunteering at PTH after that and then I ended up working at Picture Homeless as the office manager for—I think, four years. Yeah.
 
Lewis: Four good years. [Smiles]
 
Paris: Four good years, yeah. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [00:25:04] What were the—what were your thoughts at—you know, to talk about the action a little bit and the tactics. What were—what were some of the memories that you have about that?
 
Paris: I mean, I just—well, it was fun. So I was not—I don’t know, like… With growing up and going to the Westcott Street Fair and, like… I don’t know, my parents are like… [Long pause]—For background, I talk to folks pretty regularly and they’ll just talk about their family being sort of reactionary or you know, not being able to like—or being sympathetic to cops or you know, trying to keep your head down and just work hard and believing in meritocracy and just not really having a critique of the U.S. or capitalism. And I really can’t relate. And for a long time, I don’t know—for a long time, I thought it was just because we were Black that that was the way we thought. But as I’ve gotten older, I realize my parents did have an analysis—do have an analysis and a critique and it’s not unique but it’s also not universal, by any means. But even coming from that background I wasn’t used to seeing direct action like that.
 
Paris: [00:27:08] And it was fun! It was like a—well, I mean people were angry, but it felt like a festival, sort of. Is it possible that there were puppets?
 
Lewis: There were puppets. [Laughter] There was a casita—
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: and—that Not an Alternative built these really cool props.
 
Paris: Word, yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: And I remember they said—you know, in vacant lots and community gardens, there’s casitas. And I remember we had this whole debate that Brandon and Rob and people were like, “What the fuck is a casita?” And then other people were like, “What’s wrong with you? It’s a little house
 
Paris: [Laughs] Word.
 
Lewis: that’s in the garden where those old folks are sitting!” And—
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: so, we had this whole back and forth about that. And then, the Welfare Poets played.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: [Not 4] Prophet—
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: —did a rendition of “War” that was really hot. [Smiles] We had food.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:28:14] And then, when we started to have fun was when we had—I mean, extra fun was—we did a fashion show and put a runway…
 
Paris: Word!
 
Lewis: Just to create kind of drama [smiles] because we were at a standoff with the police
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and we were just like, “No, we’re going to be in here and we’re going to have fun.”
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And Joe had like a mask on and did some kind of crazy
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: runway walk. And so yeah it was—it was festive.
 
Paris: [00:28:45] Yeah. Yeah. I think also like, you know—being familiar with ABC No Rio, it’s like, the circumstances… And you know, like knowing about squatters on the Lower East Side it seemed like that was like a bygone era, you know? And there were like, you know—a couple of spaces that were still hanging on. Like, there was C-Squat and—I don’t know, I remember people from Books Through Bars and other folks who were around, like No Rio—talking about other squatted spaces. But yeah, it seemed to me like—you know, there were these places that had been secured around the time that I was born or, you know—like when I was very, very young. But I was like in my early twenties and there was a land takeover happening—like right now and that was really exciting. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:30:03] Were there other Picture the Homeless members that stand out in your mind during that action?
 
Paris: Ah… I do—well, I think I remember Brenda Stokely speaking. Though, I guess, she’s an ally.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Would Turhan [White] have been at that action?
 
Lewis: Turhan could have totally been at that action, yep. And I remember you. The next day, we had a press conference
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: and Brenda was there.
 
Paris: Word! Okay, so maybe my memories are from
 
Lewis: She was at both.
 
Paris: the press conference. I mean like, I do remember recording on my phone, people speaking. And like, one of those recordings was definitely of Brenda. And I feel like there was a man, but I don’t really remember, sorry. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: [00:31:11] Our office at the time was in the Bronx.
 
Paris: 2427 Morris Avenue.
 
Lewis: And you used to ride your bike.

Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: From—so, tell—tell us about that because that made a big impression on everyone else.
 
Paris: Really? That’s wild. [Laughs] Yeah. So, I was living in Harlem. I was living at Saint  Nicholas and 147th [Street]. And I was actually right above the A and D [subway trains] at 147th or 145th but there’s an entrance on 147th. And I could take the train pretty easily. But I could also bike pretty easily, especially in warm weather. And yeah, I had this bike—that may not actually be the same bike that I have right now. No! It totally… It is the bike that I still have. It’s like, it’s a red bike. It’s a red Panasonic.
 
Paris: [00:32:19] But I think, I don’t—the MTA [Metropolitan Transit Authority] is so much worse now, than it was then. But I do remember thinking like—if I was running late, it actually made more sense for me to bike. So, I could just bike up Saint Nicholas, come across on the McCombs Dam Bridge... But yeah, that is it—and then go up Jerome [Avenue]. And I think I could take Jerome [long pause]—what would it be? Like all the way to one—
 
Lewis: To Fordham [Road]
 
Paris: to Fordham? Yeah, okay. Yeah and then—yeah, come across on Fordham. But yeah, I mean I remember that bike ride pretty fondly.
 
Paris: [00:33:19] I remember… I think Jerome Avenue was being rezoned or like, there has been a rezoning—a push to rezone Jerome Avenue. I don’t know what the status of that is right now.
 
Lewis: I’m not sure if people are still fighting it or not, but people were fighting it.
 
Paris: Word. But Jerome Avenue was all like auto parts dealerships, or stores. And I remember thinking that I wanted to be Jerome Avenue for Halloween one year and I would just have a stripe painted down my middle and have auto parts signs [laughs] on either side—like just holding them out on my arms. But yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I would bike to work. Yeah.
 
Lewis: Well, that wasn’t the culture of a lot of the people that were coming around the office.
 
Paris: Oh, word.
 
Lewis: So it was, “Who’s this young woman that’s [laughter] on a bike?!”
 
Lewis: [00:34:27] And so… People—members, and also those of us that worked there, always really appreciated people that wanted to help.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: But sometimes, when people want to help, they’re not—some people are more helpful than others.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: And some people need a lot of help to be able to help. And so, you were somebody that came in and found out what needed to be done and then would just get busy.
 
Paris: Word. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: And so, that also was appreciated.
 
Lewis: [00:35:04] What was the office like when you first came, do you remember?
 
Paris: [Long pause] When I first came… I mean, I remember it being busy. [Long pause] But I mean, there—okay. I definitely remember having the feeling that there was a lot of stuff that people hadn’t gotten the chance to process. Like, I remember—would there be like surveys?
 
Lewis: Mm-hmm.
 
Paris: Yeah, what—is there, like—would there be a survey after each meeting? No, no, no, no, no, no, not surveys. There were the cards from outreach.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Right? Yeah. I know people that got through the… Oh my God. The outreach cards and the database... Word. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Yeah, the data—data entry’s always a challenge. [Laughs]
 
Paris: [00:36:23] Yeah… Yeah. I remember data entry being a never ending project. But yeah, lots of old flyers and signs from past campaigns or even campaigns that were still ongoing but, you know like, flyers that had been made years before. And yeah, so I do remember the first project that I worked on was to sort of organize these filing cabinets that were in the back office.  
 
Paris: [00:37:12] And as far as my memories of the office—well, word… Okay, I remember the furniture being really mismatched, it was like… I don’t know, it was not institutional furniture. Like, desks and chairs that were from different places. Yeah, maybe not geared towards ergonomics. [Laughs] Yeah. But things made—I don’t know. It wasn’t like… I remember having the impression that there was a bunch of stuff that folks hadn’t gotten the chance to go through.
 
Paris: [00:38:15] That’s really what I remember about the office, and working on that project—which sort of feels like a first archival project for me. Yeah! Yeah, I remember just learning a lot about the history of the organization and the previous campaigns and the previous housing commissioners. [Laughs] And man! I remember finding so many—there was so much imagery from like, the shelters. I think it was part of a campaign. Like, folks had snuck cameras into shelters and taken pictures of super subpar food, like—rats... Yeah, just like—yeah. The horrible conditions of the shelters. And there was maybe a poster that was like—would it be Steven Banks? Or is that too late? I might be mixing and matching names. But there was a poster that was like, “Commissioner Banks, would you eat this?” And it was a shitty bologna sandwich, maybe.
 
Lewis: With mold.
 
Paris: Yeah, with mold. Yeah, yeah.
 
Paris: [00:40:03] Yeah! And like the… Oh my God, so many voter registration cards. There was like—because there had been like the… Rogers had been doing [Long Pause]… Would it have been voter registration drives? He was—
 
Lewis: Yeah, we had a civic participation—
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: so, Rogers was hired to coordinate that.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah…
 
Lewis: And… Yeah, the voter registration cards were important because you can vote based on your residence—
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: which could be a park. That that’s your community that you’re assigned to be
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: able to vote in, which was won by people organizing for that. So, people don’t always know that.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And then, if you register to vote—say you’re in the shelter and you get transferred, then you don’t necessarily know that you can just fill out an affidavit and vote wherever.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: So, it’s a lot of voter education.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And that was important to people because a lot of people believe in the system.
 
Paris: yeah.
 
Lewis: that, “If they only knew, they would do things differently.”
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: [00:41:34] So, what was your…I remember the conversations before you were hired, that we got some money to be able to hire an office manager and we were like, “Anika’s here, already doing all of this.” [Laughs]
 
Paris: Word. [Laughter]
 
Lewis: And everybody’s, “Yes!” But there weren’t… It was a lot of dudes.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: You mentioned dude-heavy dude spaces.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: So, what was that like—for you?
 
Paris: [00:42:17] I don’t—I mean, I think [long pause]—I don’t know. I don’t remember it being like… I do remember it getting under my skin like later in my time at PTH. And [laughs] I also remember some members being particularly odious. [Smiles] But it really—I don’t know, when I started it just felt like there was a lot of camaraderie. [Long pause] And yeah—I think also, because I was friends with Brandon, we don’t really like have a relationship anymore and [laughs] something that I will bracket. But yeah, it felt pretty friendly.
 
Paris: [00:43:36] And like even—so [long pause] I don’t know. So, I’m here wearing a dress. And my dad even commented on it. Like, a couple years ago I was wearing a dress. And he was like, “When did you start embracing your femininity?” [Laughs] But, I do remember wearing a lot of hoodies and always wearing jeans. And I do think my presentation—not even like consciously, was about just covering up. But yeah, I mean like [pause] I feel like, in terms of—yeah, I don’t know. My thinking and my feelings really evolved on that.
 
Paris: [00:44:46] And there are things—there are like distinct instances that I remember… Like, do you remember—I don’t… Is it okay to say like, people’s full names?
 
Lewis: Yeah!
 
Paris: I don’t even
 
Lewis: If it’s something…
 
Paris: know if I remember this person’s full name.
 
Lewis: We can always edit it out if there’s something that’s like, “Oh!”
 
Paris: Yeah. So, when we were doing the vacant building count, there was an intern, I’m pretty sure it was—no! It wasn’t Tanaka. It was—
 
Lewis: That’s the first name that popped into my mind.
 
Paris: Word. She’s French. She was French. She is French.
 
Lewis: Aminata?
 
Paris: Yeah!
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: A member…
 
Lewis: Marquis.
 
Paris: Yes! Marquis had touched her butt or something like that? And there was a response to it. I don’t remember what happened—did he get suspended or something like that?
 
Lewis: Yeah. He was told he couldn’t come back because he also kept saying he didn’t do anything—
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: and making excuses.
 
Paris: [00:46:07] Word. Yeah. And I also remember him when… So, there was an organizer who was really young who like disappeared. I do not remember her name.
 
Lewis: Veronica?
 
Paris: Veronica, yeah. And I remember she introduced the pronouns—saying your pronouns as part of introductions during meetings. And I remember—so, this would have been after that incident with Aminata. Like Marquis was back and I remember when they would do the pronouns he—this might have been one of the first times. Like, he didn’t say “he and his.” He was like, “I’m male, 100% male.” [Laughs] And then went off on this riff about it. But yeah, I remember that dude just being kind of gross. And yeah! Yeah, there’re a handful of people who were just—not cool. But there—I don’t know, there still—it’s not like the feeling of camaraderie went away.
 
Paris: [00:47:35] [Clears throat] I don’t know like; I had a good relationship with you. I had a good relationship with Sam [J. Miller], I had a good relationship with Tej [Nagaraja]. And those are really like—those people—and Tyletha [Samuels], who was not always an employee of Picture the Homeless but was often an employee of Picture the Homeless—was around a lot. And Rogers like, any—oh, sorry, I started the story about Marquis just to relay this like—oh, word! And oh my God, he’s from Yonkers, also super young—
 
Lewis: Divad? No, no…
 
Paris: not Divad.
 
Lewis: LaMont [OyeWale’ Badru].
 
Paris: LaMont, yes!
 
Lewis: He’s on the RGB, Rent Guidelines Board.
 
Paris: Oh, cool!
 
Lewis: And he was the—like the chair or the grandmaster, whatever the term is, of the Juneteenth parade this year.
 
Paris: Oh, cool!
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Word, in New York?
 
Lewis: In Yonkers.
 
Paris: Oh in Yonkers, okay.
 
Lewis: Yes.
 
Paris: Word, yeah. Word, yeah. I think about that kid periodically, but—ta-da-da-da.
 
Paris: [00:48:59] I remember in like—we—so, I think we were having a meeting about the incident with Aminata. And there was a member, whose name I definitely do not remember who was [long pause] man, I—in my head like this is clear, but I don’t remember what he actually said. But I remember responding to him and being like, “No, this is like a hostile environment for women.” Like, I remember saying that very clearly. And, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know, and—yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:49:52] I remember—it was when Veronica worked there, and she had been a leader at FIERCE
 
Paris: Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and a staff person too maybe, I don’t recall. But we hired her to coordinate the Homeless Organizing Academy.
 
Paris: Word. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so… There was a lot of discussion about how women should dress.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: And I remember—and I thought… Also, it was somewhat maybe because I was—growing up, I was really a tomboy
 
Paris: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and I on purpose, unless I’m trying to go out and like look sexy, I kind of wear long dresses
 
Paris: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: or—I wouldn’t go to work dressed; you know—
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: showing my figure much.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And I remember—you were there, and Veronica was there, and we had women interns
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and I remember a conversation and I remember you saying something like, “Women should be able to dress however we want!”
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: “And they shouldn’t—they just need to know how to act.” Or something, you know—about the men, but it was a good discussion because it was, you know—but they don’t know how to act, a bunch of them.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:51:18] [Laughs] So then, what do we do!? You know? And, you know—but it… And we formed this women’s committee.
 
Paris: Yeah, word. Yeah, word! [Smiles] Oh my God, and I remember like Frank Morales’s partner, girlfriend… [Laughs] Yeah, it was on like a little bit of a—not self-help but, like
 
Lewis: It was early self-care.
 
Paris: Yeah. It was like, “Just like, think of abundance and you will have it.” Like something like that. That was one of the… [Laughs]
 
Lewis: No, she actually said, you know, “When I get my Con-Ed [Consolidated Edison] bill, I don’t stress out about it, and I just let the universe…” And you and I were sitting next to each other, [laughter] and I was just—I was just like, “Are you fucking kidding me? Like—people are homeless
 
Paris: Yeah, word.
 
Lewis: because they don’t have money, you know? Like, is it their fault because they’re not woke enough?”
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: And all of these members were like, “Yeah!” And I was so—I was like, ahhhhhhhhhhh! You know, I was so mad.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And then, members over there I think, got mad at me because I wasn’t into it.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:52:44] And I remember we were sitting next to or near each other and I was just… And then all the men—we had a party after and all the men kept coming down, making excuses.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: And they were like, “We don’t have a man’s day!” And we’re like, “Every day is a man’s day around here!”
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:53:09] But some of the women that were around then, mentioned that and mentioned you.
 
Paris: That though—like, that women’s caucus event?
 
Lewis: Yep.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: Was important, and that… When is Picture the Homeless going to do that? DeBoRah [Dickerson] talks about it a lot.
 
Paris: Oh, cool, cool.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: That’s yeah. That’s dope. I do remember… Yeah, I still have like—was there a party for just the women? Word. I think I like still have random songs that were requested that I downloaded to play at that party. Like, when I see a Bobby Blue Bland song [laughs] in my iTunes—I’m like, “Okay, I know this was something [laughs] that was requested.”
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [00:54:04] What—what do you feel like you learned working at Picture the Homeless?
 
Paris: Oh man, a lot! A lot. I mean, I think… Oh God, ahhhhhhhhh... [Long pause] There’s… I don’t—there’s a lot! I mean I feel like I think about things that happened at PTH or like conversations that I only had in the context of—conversations that I only had because of PTH like, daily. But—
 
Lewis: Like what? Do you remember?
 
Paris: Like, I don’t even know how to answer that question. Okay, so like one I remember, like—oh, my—so much! I definitely, like—just in terms of my understanding of the world and organizing and movements, I remember learning about like, the Shackdwellers. And… Is it MST [Movimento dos Trabalhadores Rurais Sem Terra] in Brazil? And I went to [fingers snapping]
—in Detroit.
 
Lewis: Oh, the Social Forum!
 
Paris: The U.S. Social Forum with PTH.
 
Lewis: And twenty—like, a lot of PTH people went.
 
Paris: Yeah, yeah. We had like a whole contingent. I remember—yeah, I remember Detroit really clearly. Really crisply.
 
Paris: [00:56:06] I… So, I remember there was somebody from the Shackdwellers who came through the office.
 
Lewis: S’bu [Zikode].
 
Paris: Yeah. And it was just a really chill conversation. Like, in my head, this was just a bunch of people around the table talking. And I remember he said, “You know they give us these rights, but you can’t afford your rights.” And I’ve repeated that so many times. Yeah, that was really revelatory for me.
 
Paris: [00:56:55] I… Oh my God, I like remember setting up the—for like Crowdmap? When we were doing the housing count, like—I mean I remember the process of setting that up and getting… It was like—there was a hotline people could call—or no, you would like—text an address off of—
 
Lewis: a vacant building
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and it would map it.
 
Paris: [00:57:35] Right. [Laughs] I mean like in terms of… I feel like just like my personal organization—I think there are really deep lessons about understanding context that I definitely got like an early glimpse into working on that first project with the filing cabinets, that I definitely still use today in my daily work. I think I’m a better listener from my time at PTH. Yeah. Yeah...  
 
Paris: [00:58:49] I mean, like a lot of members of PTH were older. I mean, it was like a bunch of older folks. There would be—you know, there were youth campaigns and younger folks who would [pause] come through the office as members, definitely younger folks who would be working there.
 
Paris: [00:59:23] But I think in a lot of left progressive organizing circles, there’s a sort of like, really almost—not predatory but there’s this sort of undue focus on youth and getting young people. Which I think is important but looking at PTH and how much the civil rights—how much PTH was able to do, period… Like I hear that, like, “Oh my God! We need young people! We need youth! We need… ” Like whatever different demographic than the people who are actually showing up to do work—really differently now. Yeah, and also I mean like older folks… Yeah! Word—just an appreciation for older folks, [laughs] period. [Long pause] Yeah, I don’t know if I can articulate anything, very neatly. But—yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:00:52] Are there members that stand out in your mind?
 
Paris: [Clears throat] Yeah! For sure. [Laughs] For sure. A lot—for different reasons. I mean yeah, for different reasons. I mean—I love Rogers. I mean, there are a lot of people [smiles] who like—who stand out for different reasons. Sorry to keep repeating this.
 
Lewis: What is it about Rogers?
 
Paris: I mean, just super knowledgeable, really gentle.
 
Paris: [01:01:38] I think like… Well okay, so I remember… Here’s like—okay so to—one thing with the last question. I do remember doing the newsletter every month. But was it a newsletter? It was a calendar.
 
Lewis: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Paris: Doing the calendar every month, [clears throat] which I think I became a little bit overly focused on. Like, I don’t know, I enjoyed working on the calendar. I think it was a cool thing. I do think that it sort of maybe outlived its usefulness or maybe [smiles] used more resources, that maybe could’ve been better spent elsewhere. You know, the time that we spent folding it, the time that we spent doing the postage machine. And it was a big thing every year. Or not every year—every month. And I think I’m more ready to reevaluate projects that are huge time sucks [laughs] and maybe resource heavy now just having that hindsight.
 
Paris: [01:03:14] Ahhhhhhh. Okay, but Rogers. So, I mean—well, I remember towards the end of my time at PTH or at least the—towards the end of my… Because I did come back on a temporary basis when the office was moving from the Bronx to East Harlem. But, towards the end of my full-time work at PTH, I remember going with Rogers to meet with the person at [Department of] Corrections who was the go-ahead for Potters Field. Or was like, you know—the person who we had to coordinate with for Potters Field. And I think that was when I learned that Rogers had known my family in Queens.
 
Lewis: His first girlfriend.
 
Paris: Yeah. Or like, he had a crush on my aunt. [Laughs] And I don’t know, I mean Rogers is rad for all the reasons that I mentioned. But I think after learning that and also that meeting was at in the Bulova Building. Like, when you’re going to LaGuardia [Airport] you drive past it. But my grandparents used to live over there and so both being in that area that was so closely in my memory with my grandparents and my whole dad’s side of the family period—and knowing that he had known them and had these relationships with my aunt and remembered my grandparents. Like, it just really felt like he was family.
 
Lewis: [01:05:21] He talks about your grandfather in his interview
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: —as being somebody really like, formative
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: for his own character
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: because he—the church that he belonged to
 
Paris: St. Gabriel’s [Roman Catholic Church]
 
Lewis: and he went to Catholic School
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and that there weren’t a lot of opportunities for Black students
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and that your grandfather was like an elder
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: in the community and made sure that things worked the way they should work.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And he talks about him quite a bit in his interview.
 
Paris: Word. I would love to hear that.
 
Lewis: Okay!
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: And then he—the crush he had on your aunt.
 
Paris: Yeah. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: [01:06:09] Word. And of course Rachel [Brumfield], I remember Rachel being, really funny. I haven’t seen her in years. I’ve seen Rogers like—I think with, definitely within the last two years, maybe within the last year? Because I did go to the Longest Night [of the Year] and I think I saw Rogers there.
 
Lewis: [01:06:41] Well, you mentioned Potters Field
 
Paris: Mm-Hmmmm.
 
Lewis: and so actually—you know, any campaign that Picture the Homeless worked on was because it was important to members.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: But the Potters Field campaign is important in a—in a special way. And you were involved in carrying out that work.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: So, could you talk about what that was and what you did?
 
Paris: Yeah. So, Potters Field is where like indigent folks are buried. It is off of City Island. Is it on an island? It is on an—
 
Lewis: Hart Island.
 
Paris: —yeah, it’s on Hart Island, yeah. [Clears throat] And it was controlled by the Department of Corrections—still is maybe? Yeah. And so, I guess this dates back to Lewis and Anthony, right? Maybe?
 
Lewis: [01:07:50] The first—one of the very first actions that Picture the Homeless had was about the—about Potters Field. And it was something that Picture the Homeless did with  Housing Works.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: So, Terri Smith-Coronia and Charles King—Housing Works was much smaller then and they were one of the first people who was very welcoming to Picture the Homeless.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: So was ABC No Rio and that’s where we got our first computer from—
 
Paris: Word! Okay. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: that Anthony talks about—going to pick that up, in his interview, which… I had forgotten that it came from ABC No Rio.
 
Lewis: [01:08:29] And so anyway, so Lewis was buried in Potters Field.
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: And we didn’t know that he had passed away. And so… Even though it was important to—from the founding of Picture the Homeless, how people were buried, it became very personal
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: when we found out Lewis was there. And people reference that a lot. And Rogers was one of the first leaders.
 
Paris: Yeah, right.
 
Lewis: And Rachel, in her quiet—quieter way—
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: —in the background. She was also very involved.
 
Paris: [01:09:11] Word. Well… Because of that early advocacy and activism, there were monthly trips to Potters Field. And I think that may have been—the only way to get to Potters Field? And so, there would be—people within the organization but also people who didn’t have any sort of relationship to Picture the Homeless, as I remember it—who would get on this list to go to Potters Field. And because it’s the Department of Corrections they really tried to control people’s—everything. So, I think you couldn’t bring a cell phone. And I remember repeating these words to people who had signed up for the trip and getting pushback from this woman who was like, well… Because I think part of the spiel that I would give people was, “You can’t write about this, [laughs] you can’t record it in any way.” This was kind of hazy in my memory, like definitely not verbatim or—these are not the exact rules, but I would basically tell people that they couldn’t share any information about it.
 
Paris: [01:10:52] And this woman was asking like totally reasonable questions, “How can you—how is it reasonable to tell me that I can’t write about this? Like, this is going to be part of my personal experience.” And like people would go because they knew people who were like buried there. You know? Like it wasn’t… I do think that there were a handful of people who were like—I do remember talking to a Vice reporter and I’m sure there were other people who like, did not have any sort of personal connection, or were maybe adventuring. But yeah, I mean for the most part, people were going to say final goodbyes or look into whether their loved ones were buried there.
 
Lewis: [01:11:48] And did you coordinate the faith leaders that would go? Because they would take turns.
 
Paris: Word. Maybe?
 
Lewis: And then, you had to submit the names—
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: —to the Department of Corrections ten days prior.
 
Paris: Right. Yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah, because the prisoners, Rikers [Island] prisoners—
 
Paris: Oh, would be digging the graves, yeah.
 
Lewis: Because there’s so much—they were in the employment—
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: —C-Block, I think? Because there’s grave digging careers or something.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:12:23] We have a lot of really great audio about Potters Field from Rogers
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: and William and Charlie. And it still I think, really resonates. And Tyletha. Tyletha coordinated
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: before you came. It didn’t really fit in anyone’s job description. [Laughs]
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:12:52] So, what was your job like? You were office manager, but you were also helping to arrange visits to Potters Field. And what were some of the other things that you were doing?
 
Paris: I remember dealing with petty cash and Metro Cards. Oh my God, [laughs] tracking Metro Cards, so the deal was that you would get a Metro Card, the organization wanted to make sure that everybody would have their trip to and from the space, covered. And if you were doing something else like, I don’t know, taking something to a council member or, you know—going to an action... You should not have had to worry about the cost of getting there—like hopping a turnstile or whatever. Yeah, I’m also remembering John Jones and his struggle [smiles] to get all of the Metro—like little bits of Metro Card fare onto one Metro Card. But… So, there was tracking of—making sure that folks got their Metro Cards.
 
Paris: [01:14:30] But then also making sure that folks weren’t getting multiple Metro Cards. So, let’s say that you came to the office for the civil rights campaign meeting and then you stayed for some action report back. You would have to sign for the Metro Card for the first meeting—and I think there were also different books for each campaign. Like I don’t—there were multiple sets of documentation. But yeah I mean, it’s a Metro Card. It’s like money and folks would try to load up on things to get multiple Metro Cards in one day.
 
Paris: [01:15:27] And I wasn’t like an enforcer, but I do remember being like, “No, you already got one.” And checking the books and there always being a backlog of like… I can’t remember if I had this in a spreadsheet—but just tracking that. I remember doing payroll and telling people their vacation balances. I remember there was always a struggle to ensure that folks—especially you and Sam, who had been there for several years were actually able to use your vacation time. Because as I remember it, it would be like, you know—you’d be working Monday through Friday but then there is an action on Saturday or there’d be an overnight action. Like folks would have comp time on top of vacation time, and it was a struggle to use it all up. And I remember starting—giving people their vacation balances on a monthly basis.
 
Paris: [01:16:54] Oh man! I tried to do a CSA. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: You did do a CSA.
 
Paris: Yeah. Word. Word. Yeah, and to try to have like fresh produce—because… So, there were also like snacks at the meetings. And yeah, so I—there was a CSA, for a minute.
 
Lewis: And so, for folks that don’t know what that is
 
Paris: Oh, right.
 
Lewis: and why did you do that?
 
Paris: So, a CSA is community supported agriculture. And the deal is that a group of people will work with a particular farm to get the regular harvest, as it comes in. So, it’s sort of a protection for farmers. Like, they have a guaranteed set of customers. And you know, it’s not like, you’re growing a bunch of radishes, and nobody wants radishes, so you just lose out. It’d be whatever they’re growing, that’s what you’re going to get. And maybe you will—if you’re not used to radishes, you will figure out how to incorporate them into your meals. [Smiles] So yeah, in my head I was like, “Oh instead of having whatever, peanut butter and…” I don’t know, I don’t—I do remember there being loaves of bread and folks would make sandwiches.
 
Paris: [01:18:38] But there would also be other snacks. There would be the
 
Lewis: Cheetos. [Laughs]
 
Paris: Yeah! And the Nutty Buddy’s.
 
Lewis: Miss Debbie (sic) Nutty Bar things? Yeah.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: Which I can’t resist.
 
Paris: Yeah… No, they were quite tasty.
 
Paris: And so yeah, I think I was like, “Oh, we could have fresh produce for meetings.” But I just really underestimated how much work it was to prepare a full-on meal. Though—I mean, I think interest and desire for that ebbed and flowed. I do remember people making meals. And who—would Frank? [Clark] Not Frank... Yeah! No, Frank. Frank, who’s not Frank anymore.
 
Lewis: Francine.
 
Paris: Francine. Sorry, Francine.
 
Lewis: He—
 
Paris: Francine would cook.
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: But also buy bologna.
 
Paris: And Jean [Rice] would also cook.
 
Lewis: Jean would cook
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: once in a while. Arvernetta [Henry] used to cook pancakes
 
Paris: Yeah. Yes! Yes, yeah.
 
Lewis: and serve us all at our desk [laughter] a plate of pancakes.
 
Paris: Yeah, word.
 
Lewis: Andres [Perez] cooked a lot.
 
Paris: Yes, absolutely.
 
Lewis: He would cook a lot. Different people... Alease [Lowe]. It was nice that
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: women would cook but a lot of the men
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: also, would cook.
 
Paris: [01:20:06] Yeah. Speaking of people who like really stand out—like Alease and Bernard for sure. Yeah. They’re just—yeah. I mean [long pause] Alease and Bernard were a couple, maybe from Brooklyn? And Bernard would sort of—I don’t know, he had this manner of speaking where he would kind of repeat himself and trail off, maybe? But, I don’t know, he was a good-natured dude. And Alease I remember being really chill. She was fun to be around, really quiet but fun to be around.
 
Paris: [01:21:28] And I remember [laughs] like we’re going to Detroit, and I don’t know, sneaking off to smoke a joint with Brandon or something like that and just mentioning it and she was totally chill with it. And I was like, “Oh…” [Whispers something inaudible, then laughs] Yeah, she was just cool. And I think they stick out in my memory—well, did they have a relationship with—there was something with the cops. Like the cops had… [long pause.] I don’t—was it somebody in Alease’s immediate family had been targeted by the cops or something like that?
 
Lewis: Yeah. But she was kind of quiet about some of that.
 
Paris: Yeah, okay.
 
Lewis: And she was a domestic violence survivor, also.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: They were both really dedicated
 
Paris: Yes.
 
Lewis: to the civil rights work and also the housing campaign.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: They were very… Alease would take minutes.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: She had a notebook, and she would take minutes of things. And they were—they were around.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: They were around to do what—what needed to be done. So might be—even though they’re… Alease was uncomfortable, but she did speak to the press, and she was really good. She took it very seriously.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And there’s a photo of—Bernard was on the cover of the El Diario, pointing at a vacant building.
 
Paris: Oh, yes! Yeah!
 
Lewis: You know? So it was—he didn’t—he wasn’t the front spokesperson-person, but he was always there.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so, it was really hot that that captured him
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: in the leadership
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: like that.
 
Paris: [01:23:45] Yeah, I think they stand out more because they also sort of disappeared. Like, I remember asking about them. Like when I would see, at PTH and after… When I would see folks and everybody would like—I have still never heard somebody say, “Oh, I saw Alease.” You know? Da-da-da-da. Or like, “I heard da-da-da-da about Bernard.” Like… Yeah...
 
Lewis: No, I don’t know what happened to them either. And definitely when we moved back to East Harlem.
 
Paris: Word, word.
 
Lewis: [01:24:31] I have—there’s a picture—I have a picture in my mind of a photograph, of a picture with you in it—when we were doing the “Calendar Intro 48.”
 
Paris: Word! Yeah. Yeah. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Do you—what is your memory of that? Because you look so happy in the picture. [Smiles]
 
Paris: [Laughs] Well so, [pause, with bracelets clinking] there was this bill that PTH had writ… Well so there were like—it had gone through a number of iterations by that point. But there is a bill to count the vacant properties—excuse me—in the city. And earlier versions of the bill… It was like, we’re not only going to count the vacant properties but unemployed people who are living in those neighborhoods are going to have jobs if they want them, getting those buildings in livable condition. And all of these other provisions that still sound really rad but are kind of
 
Lewis: Common sense?
 
Paris: unconstitutional because of private property. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: But also yeah, word… It’s like the—whatever, whatever. We live in a society… But … So, at that point—and that would have been like 2010?
 
Lewis: Mmmmmmm.
 
Paris: Is that right?
 
Lewis: Yeah.
 
Paris: [01:26:16] There was this bill that had been like stripped down to its actual constitutional [laughs] like…
 
Lewis: Mediocrity? [Laughs]
 
Paris: [Laughs] But still—I feel like you can’t even say mediocre. Because I mean, that still is a necessary and
 
Lewis: Yeah!
 
Paris: excellent idea, you know? And it would’ve been rad if the city had actually put its legislative will and enforcement power into a way to count vacant buildings. And like yeah, move on with next steps of what to do with vacant buildings and, you know—ensuring housing and jobs and et cetera.
 
Paris: [01:27:17] But so, it had—it was like… It had been proposed to [New York] City Council and they just refused to put it on the calendar. And this had been an ongoing struggle—like writing that bill and getting it to a place where it could even be presented or introduced to City Council had like already been a number of years. And then once it was introduced, they just like refused to put… And this was when Christine Quinn was [snaps fingers] city speaker, da-da-da-da.
 
Paris: [01:28:03] But so, there was going to be—we like—there was going to be this action to interrupt the City Council meeting to push the council to at least put Intro 48 on the calendar. And like, I mean it’s you know, total—whatever. It’s like totally reasonable, you know? Like if elected representatives representing the will of the people are like, “This is actually a horrible idea.” They can totally vote it down. But they like weren’t even bringing it that far. And so, we decided to do rolling protest where—I don’t remember what was being discussed in the council that day, but we were going to get up in pairs and start chanting like, “Calendar Intro 48! Calendar Intro 48!” And I don’t think that we went first, but my friend Joe and I were like partnered in this action. And at that moment, we like got up and started chanting, “Calendar Intro 48! Calendar Intro 48!”
 
Paris: [01:29:28] And I remember Jumaane Williams and Ydanis Rodriguez started chanting with us. And we were escorted out. I think we locked arms and yeah… I mean, I think I probably also have an idea of the same picture. I do remember a picture of me right outside of the chambers and I was like… I mean, it’s exciting. I think I was a little bit relieved that I didn’t get arrested. But like, you know—there was the possibility that we would get arrested. And… Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:30:19] Well, we had—we had also formed a gauntlet, so when they walked in
 
Paris: [Laughs] Word.
 
Lewis: they had to go through us, [smiles] like between us and we were chanting all in their ears and they were just very mad.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And then we have a great photo of Tish [Leticia] James and Jean
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: where she’s holding like his face in her hands—like calling him, “Daddy.”
 
Paris: Yeah. [Laughs] Word. 
 
Lewis: It was kind of a—you know, somewhat like the vacant lot takeover...
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: It had some theater and fun.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah, and Arvernetta also saying, “I’m not going to do that!” And then, she’s handing out [laughter] all these flyers and totally doing it.
 
Paris: Yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:31:06] What do you think it’s important for people to know about Picture the Homeless?
 
Paris: [Sighs, long pause] I mean—about Picture the Homeless in particular—as like its own—as Picture the Homeless the organization? [Long pause] I mean, [long pause] Picture the Homeless consistently put forth a really radically different idea of what the city could be. I mean like with Intro 48… That there are clear problems that anybody can see. And it didn’t take like—I mean, you know, there… PTH had, and I guess still has, a lot of allies across the spectrum. Like, there are definitely city planners and academics who have like contributed in one way or another to PTH campaigns and efforts and actions.
 
Paris: [01:32:57] But the issue of vacancy, the issue of inadequate housing, the issue of police harassment and overreach and like the necessity of sleep and the necessity of healthcare… I don’t know if you looked at the policy proposals that PTH was putting out and what was being voted on in City Council—it was almost like two separate cities, you know? And very different understandings of how they should operate.
 
Paris: [01:33:43] And those ideas were like created, crafted, discussed over coffee [laughs] and mad creamer among homeless folks, you know? Like, a lot of folks who didn’t have formal education, people who had been street homeless, people who had been kicked out of their homes... And you know—people who had health issues, people who—in a lot of formulations should just be the recipient of services. But it was like radical city planning, sort of… Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s how I would put it.
 
Lewis: [01:34:56] So you’re the office manager but you have a lot of political experience. You yourself are, you know—a participant and a leader in different kinds of political spaces. And so, you’re also part of Picture the Homeless. And what—do you have recommendations or thoughts for… A position like that—like office manager, sounds so bureaucratic and administrative and clearly it was. I mean, you were making sure people got paid… That—our healthcare plan…
 
Paris: Yeah, I remember that.
 
Lewis: You took care of all of that.
 
Paris: And the broker was a comic, like a stand-up comic.
 
Lewis: Exact—Scott. [Laughs]
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: You took care of all that. I have a lot of stuff from the archive that’s not digitized, and a lot of those file folders are in your handwriting.
 
Paris: Word. [Smiles]
 
Lewis: Every time I see your handwriting I’m like, “Anika!” [Laughter]
 
Lewis: [01:36:00] But you were also a political person in the organization. And so, for a small grassroots organization, what’s the experience like—having to do that kind of work that a lot of—especially leftists don’t like to do.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: It’s like
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: people don’t like money, they don’t like
 
Paris: yeah.
 
Lewis: bureaucracies or—like, “Fuck that.”
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And so, you’re holding all that down and making sure that the organization’s running but you’re also going to actions and appreciating the radical political space. Like what—how was that for you, juggling all of that?
 
Paris: I don’t know. I mean, I definitely did feel like maybe a bit of an inferiority complex about not being an organizer. And [long pause] yeah, I don’t know... I mean like, I think in my head, I did have… It did seem like being an organizer, being a coordinator of a particular project or program, did seem to be the sexier thing that I wished I was doing or would’ve liked to have imagined myself doing. But I did also feel very [long pause] I didn’t feel less of a part of PTH. So, I don’t know. I’m a social person and so much of my experience of anything… Like, I’m just talking about college and yeah, definitely like, being in the space of ABC No Rio and being part of Books Through Bars… Like, so much of my understanding and experience of those experiences was about the people I was working with. And so, I don’t know how to land the point of this question.
 
Paris: [01:38:46] I don’t know that it felt like juggling? So, it didn’t really feel like—inasmuch as I had insecurities about title—it didn’t really feel like there was a sharp split in terms of usefulness to the organization or being involved in the work. I mean, and there wasn’t, you know? Like, we were all going to actions, we were all phone banking. [Laughs]
 
Paris: [01:39:26] That was like another thing. I remember phone banking. I remember like all of these printouts of contacts for fundraisers, for parties, for press conferences, going through all aspects and then trying to update people’s records. And I was like, “Okay, this is not a good number anymore.”
 
Lewis: So many times.
 
Paris: Yeah. And like yeah, those calendars coming back and updating addresses. Sorry, but that’s tangential.
 
Paris: [01:40:08] Yeah like it really was a collective—I don’t know, it really felt like a collective process. Like, the work of the campaigns did feel like a collective process.
 
Lewis: Well, I’m—I’m glad you say that, and I think a lot about organization—organizational growth
 
Paris: Mm-Hmmmmm.
 
Lewis: because when you’re small, then it is more conducive to—not everybody in everything but at least aware of what’s happening
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and having input
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and participating. And then, as organizations grow, you know—more staff, then you need to raise more money and there’s more administrative
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: stuff and there… So, these kind of sections of the organization can—I think there’s a danger in them splintering.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:41:04] But I think it was very important that you were not—and I won’t say “just” an office manager, but you were part of the political
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: life of the organization, also.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Because the way the flow would happen in the office is members would go talk to Brandon [smiles] or go talk to you
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and then go talk to me. Like, they talked to you and then they’d pass through the door
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: and come talk to me and that… It seemed very important—one, that members had different people that they could talk to
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: but also that we were all clear about the work.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: So, it wasn’t so much like, “Uh-uh, this person said”
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: “this is happening
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And, or why…” So, I think the role you played was really important. And you set up a lot of systems
 
Paris: Word. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: that were not set up before you got there.
 
Paris: Word, word. [Smiles]

Lewis: [01:42:12] I guess I would ask you if you have any thoughts, anything else you want to share, that you haven’t shared yet?
 
Paris: [Pause] I know as soon as I walk out—yeah, as soon as I walk out the door, I’m going to be like, “Oh, I should have said this and this and this.” [Pause] Ahhhhhhhh. Yeah I mean, it was just in the context of this interview conversation, I have been thinking about like Picture the Homeless as like—there’s sort of a network of social justice non-profits in New York. And I feel like APOC really like… I don’t know, I feel there’s sort of—I’m imagining like a circle with APOC people as folks and there are sort of rotating cogs around it. And Picture the Homeless was one of those rotating cogs. Like, so many of my memories of APOC—or so—well, so many memories of APOC and PTH are interrelated, or like the networks of people are really interrelated in my mind. From like, you know—getting involved because of Joe and Brandon and like when I left, Shaun Lin was a civil rights organizer. And yeah! I remember like…
 
Lewis: Doing events with Spirit Child.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah. And like, donors and volunteers and—oh, well—yeah, folks who came through the parties like being part of that network, I don’t know. That’s like—that’s a thing.  
 
Paris: [01:44:54] I do remember the parties. I think that is definitely something I want to talk about as a final thought but also—like when you asked about what I learned from PTH. So, the parties were really good—I mean, definitely [smiles] just the importance of having fun with the people that you’re organizing with—like having fun. Yeah, the importance of fun.
 
Paris: [01:45:30] And… So, there would be these regular house party fundraisers. But a lot of times they would be at the office and there would always be food, there would always be beer, there would always be really good music. Like, I remember those parties being really fun. And I think, you know like—I don’t know, remembering all this stuff fondly. But like, we did get on each other’s nerves, you know? There would be people butting heads, you know—in the office, in the organization. And I think the—in addition to being fundraisers—fun fundraisers, yes… The parties were also just like really serious community building and incentive to stay involved, to keep coming back, yeah,  yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:46:42] The parties were fun, and I think it was also a big political move to have—to create a space where folks were like having fun with homeless folks.
 
Paris: Yeah! Yeah.
 
Lewis: Like you would never… They would not be the people you would think of
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: oh, let me go hang out with this guy at the end of the train
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: stretched out on the bench, you know—on the seat. But here you are, dancing
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: with them or they’re deejaying
 
Paris: Right.
 
Lewis: or whatever and you’re having a great time.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:47:20] And it was important—the lack—for members being somewhere where they could be themselves and not be controlled. Like, of course
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: there would have to be some social norms, as there always are [smiles] but—but that are collectively agreed upon.
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: And that you could just be—cut loose
 
Paris: yeah.
 
Lewis: and talk shit and
 
Paris: [Smiles] Yeah.
 
Lewis: Yeah, they—the parties were fun.
 
Lewis: [01:47:52] The tenth anniversary, you were at
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: that was pretty big.
 
Paris: [01:47:59] Yeah. Is there like a… I think I saw a picture from one of the tenth anniversary parties in here? [Looking at laptop with photos from the archive]
 
Lewis: Well, I—
 
Paris: Is that right?
 
Lewis: I don’t know. But you and a couple other people mentioned the parties and the gatherings
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: and so, we can make a ‘zine just about…
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Because we have a lot—we have all those photos. I have all those photos here, on a hard drive
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: from the server. And my promise to everyone is we’re only going to use photos where we look hot. [Laughter] And we have a lot.
 
Paris: Word. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: It almost, you know, at times…
 
Paris: Word, Ryan Gibbs!
 
Lewis: Yes.
 
Paris: Word.
 
Lewis: Sharp dressed man right there.
 
Paris: Yeah, yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:48:57] The segue from sleeping on the street in a protest or… To having a party
 
Paris: was sometimes kind of seamless.
 
Paris: [01:49:07] Yeah… Getting rained on during a sleep out.
 
Lewis: Yeah—share a story about a sleep out where we got rained on. There were so many to pick from.
 
Paris: I remember one in like—midtown? Is that right? I mean, so like—the streak of bad luck—we can call it bad luck—of sleep outs—of it raining during sleep outs had preceded me. And so, I remember there being a sleep-out in Midtown. I don’t remember—I don’t really remember a lot of the details around it.
 
Lewis: Was it when we did a march through Christine Quinn’s district and stopped in front of vacant buildings and then we slept kind of catty corner from Penn Station?
 
Paris: That sounds right, yeah.
 
Lewis: And it rained—really a lot.
 
Paris: Yeah, yeah—right, okay! And okay, so I remember that. And we had these moving blankets that just fell apart. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: They said, “Do not wash.”
 
Paris: Yes, [laughs] word!
 
Lewis: And we were like, “What are they made of? You can’t wash them?”
 
Paris: [01:50:38] Yeah… I think there may have been scaffolding or something? Like, we’re trying to be under a scaffolding. Yeah. I mean, again—good people. But I remember that being sort of miserable. [Laughs] Yeah, I don’t really remember—I just remember getting rained on and those blankets falling apart.
 
Paris: [01:51:16] But there was also—was it in Eric Dilan’s district? This was like towards the end of my time at PTH. There was a sleep-out and I like [smiles] biked over—I think the sleep out in Midtown was my last sleep out. But I did bike over for like a sleep out in I think—Eric Dilan’s district. I think it was close to the J train, maybe? And you know, like sticking around for a little bit but then going home at the end or—yeah. Or not like going home at the end of the sleep out but going home after—after like I had, you know, spent like a certain amount of time. But I was like,” I’m not going to sleep out.” Yeah. Yeah.
 
Lewis: [01:52:17] And what are—what work are you doing now?
 
Paris: So, I’m working part-time as an archivist and I’m working part-time as a librarian.
 
Lewis: Nice.
 
Paris: Yeah. Yeah, it’s cool. I feel like I’m not really involved in political work. And yeah, so I work part-time at the TC [Teachers College] Library but I’ve been—I went—so… I left PTH and I was like—when I started library school... And then, I sort of took a hard hiatus from library school. And so I’m going back in the fall to finish. But… Di-di-di-do-do, I feel like I was going somewhere with that. I don’t know, yeah. That’s out. Right so, I’m not really involved in political work. I was active with Books Through Bars for a little bit longer after I was with PTH. But once I was in library school it was sort of just like paring down on projects and activities. And so, my hard hiatus from library school happened. And I just had a really hard time landing that plane… Like this was a paper that I’ve been working on—like on and off, for four years at this point. And I just like—I don’t know. I mean I haven’t given up. I still would like to turn this into something but had to admit to myself that it was not something that I was finishing on my own. So yeah, that’s where I am professionally.
 
Lewis: Well
 
Paris: Yeah.
 
Lewis: Thank you.
 
Paris: Yeah, thank you.
 
Lewis: And we can do another one, because you’re going to be thinking of all these things.
 
Paris: Yeah. [Laughs]
 
Lewis: So, we’ll do another one whenever you want.
 
Paris: Cool, okay.
 
[END OF INTERVIEW]