Shantel Palacio

Phillip: [00:00:00] All right! Today is Monday, March 6th. My name's Phillip Norman. I'm here in Brooklyn, New York, and I'm interviewing Shantel Palacio. Do you wanna introduce yourself for the recording?

Shantel: [00:00:17] I am Shantel Palacio. And what do I, what do I add to that? Sorry?

Phillip: [00:00:25] Where, where, where are you?

Shantel: [00:00:27] Oh, I'm in, I'm in New Hampshire.

Phillip: [00:00:29] Okay!

Shantel: [00:00:30] Grew up in New Hampshire.

Phillip: [00:00:31] Great, great! And you grew up in a Nehemiah home and have done a lot of research on the history of that community.

Shantel: [00:00:37] I grew up in Nehemiah.

Phillip: [00:00:39] Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this, and we'll kind of get into everything, Nehemiah, but just to start, as I mentioned, you know, a lot of the Nehemiah stories I've heard are very much kind of immigrant stories. So if you could just tell me a little bit about your parents, Peter and Ruth, if I'm remembering correctly.

Shantel: [00:00:55] Oh, I'm fro, I don't know if you're frozen.

Phillip: [00:01:02] Can you hear me? Oh, no.

Shantel: [00:01:10] Oh, there you go. Okay.

Phillip: [00:01:12] All right!

Shantel: [00:01:13] I don't know if I was frozen or you were frozen.

Phillip: [00:01:16] You were frozen on my end. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we'll have, we'll have to see if there's a lot of issues. Might need to reschedule. I mean, my internet is just always shaky, depending on where I'm at. But yeah, let's see if it stays stable. Okay, we'll keep rolling. But yeah, I was just saying, yeah, if you just wanna start off by telling me some about your parents, how they got to New York, how they ended up purchasing a Nehemiah home.

Shantel: [00:01:44] Yeah, I don't know all of the story of how they got to New York, but they got to Nehemiah. I can, I can talk a little bit about that. So my parents are from, my father's from Belize, and my mother's from Honduras in Central America. And, and I know they came at different times, and they were in the States for several years before they came to Brooklyn and Nehemiah. So they've been working, my, my dad lives all over, all over the US. So he spent some time in California and in New Orleans and eventually made his way to to New York. But I know that they came, they went to Brooklyn because it was more convenient for work.

So I think my parents were living in, in Harlem, which was news to me until fairly recently. And we're looking for just a place to live that was closer to, to work for my dad. My dad did some factory work, and so from what I know that they were living in East New York. And my grandmother, who was very Catholic, you know, found some kind of notice in the bulletin for a church and about this opportunity to purchase a home. And I, I think just, just from being from, from Belize and, and you know, what, how, regardless of how humble humbly you grew up there, I think it, for my grandmother, it was important to, to just have a home and, and to own your home. That's what everyone did there. So, yeah, I think it was, she really pushed my, my parents to apply for this home ownership opportunity.

And because it came from the church, it was like a place that was, I, I believe was really trusted. And so they applied from my understanding, and, and the beauty about the Nehemiah is that they eliminated a lot of the barriers, right. To purchasing a home. So the down payment wasn't like astronomical. And I, I, from what I understand, it was a simple process. So they applied for the lottery and they got it. And they were the first, one of the first families to come on the block, check out the model home and, and kind of take their pick.

So they picked a, a, a house somewhere in the middle because they, they didn't want the end homes, you know, so they didn't want anyone messing up the, the, the, the property at the end, even more susceptible at the end. So I think they picked some somewhere in the middle of the block and, and that was that, that, that was where I was born. That's the only, only home at home I knew.

Phillip: [00:05:08] Wow. And, and just, what are the names of the folks you've talked about so far? Parents and grandmother.

Shantel: [00:05:15] My grandmother's name was Adriana, and my parents are Ruth and Peter Palacio.

Phillip: [00:05:23] Okay, great. Great. And then, so, so you came along, and what, you know, what was it like growing up in that neighborhood? What did you know about how your parents kind of came, came to live there as a kid versus, you know, I know you learned more later, but just kind of growing up, what was that like?

Shantel: [00:05:42] Yeah, so I have three older sisters, and so it was just, you know, kind of being the youngest, right. But I didn't, I didn't know very much about it. It was just like, this was, this was the way life was, right? And it was, it was, as far as I know, it was nice. It wasn't until later on that I realized kind of all of the stigmas of growing up in Brownsville and, and, and that. But for me growing up, it was like, you know, running up and down the, the block with my, my friends. There were other little kids that I grew up with, and it was nice. It was like, you know, like what you see on TV when you knock on the neighbor's door and bar of sugar or like, when the neighbors like, you know, yell at you because they're like, you're not you kids, you're not supposed to be doing that.

Like, I'm gonna tell your mother, you know, that kind of thing and make sure you're in before dark and, you know, but we were silly and, and like, you know, little mischievous sometimes, but it was nice. We had a park across the street, you know, and we had a couple of parks actually nearby. And so it was like playing handball in the park or going to the pizza shop and getting a slice, like it is such, such a New York thing, right? . But I think my, my upbringing was, was fairly boring and normal because I lived in Nehemiah, but I did realize that other, other kids, like when I started going to school, I realized like other kids didn't, didn't have that.

They didn't have maybe the space, right? I had space to do homework. I did homework on the kitchen table or the dining room table. I had neighbors who, you know, they had older siblings who could help me with my math when I was struggling with math, right? There was, there was the space to run around the backyard. And I realize now that the backyard is, is small, it's like very small, but it was huge when I was little, right? Like, so we, we just, we had the safe, like the safety of the, of the space that I, I don't know. I don't know if my, my, my classmates had the same?

Phillip: [00:08:17] Yeah, some of the most like, interesting stories to hear about kind of just the life in the community is like, if you have any recollection of just like, names of neighbors, specific stories of like what this or that person was like, like I've loved talking to people just kind of going up and down the block. Like who was living over here, what did they, like, what'd you do with them? What were they like, you know, that kind of thing.

Shantel: [00:08:39] Yeah, I mean, so the neighbors that I can recall are just the, the parents of my friends, right? And so we had the Williams's who lived at the end of the block I, I don't know their first names, but the Williams family. And they had a granddaughter who was like one of my best friends. And I just remember her parents always going, or her grand parents always going, you better be in by a certain time, right? Because we would just, no one wanted to go home. We would just run up and down the block all day.

And so all the, all the kids would come out, let me see. Then we had the Meads, the Mead family and the Mead family. They also had a granddaughter who, who came by all the time. Kanika was her name. And you know, she stayed out and played with us. It was the same thing, same story. Like we just did, we just ran up and down playing red light, green light, 1, 2, 3. There were the Covingtons, oh my God, the Ruiz family, you know, it was a, the Ruiz family was a Puerto Rican family. They had, she had foster kids and so she had her, her, her kids and a, and a bunch of foster kids. So that was like the hangout house because it was just a lot of, a lot of us. And I loved the Woods family because, and, and again, another, like one of the, the grandparents of a, of a, a another kid on the block.

And I loved, that was the first place I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I didn't know what peanut butter and jelly sandwich were before then. And, or I guess I didn't like them. I didn't know. I don't know why I didn't like them. 'cause I never had one before. But I remember because was late and we were like hanging out in Sharima's basement and we were just watching TV and her grandmother came down and she said, would you like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? And I was like, no. And she said, okay, have you tried one before? You don't like peanut butter? And I was like, I don't think I've ever had one. And she was like, I'll make you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And she did. And I, I don't know, maybe it's 'cause my family is Central American. I don't know. Like, that's not a thing. I have no clue.

But, 'cause it's so common to me now. But I remember looking at the sandwich and like, this, I'm supposed to eat this. And I, I ate it. And I know I liked peanut butter, but I didn't, you know, and I was like, oh, the peanut butter and the jelly, this is kind of good. And I was like, yeah, this is great. Can I have some, some milk? And so it was like, you know, something that I, I know to be so like American, you now, it was like in common, it was, I I, I remember that was the first time I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich . And there were two other families, other kids that lived at the end of the block. And I, we just, we, we, we felt like that was our world, our territory, right? Like, and we ruled, we ruled the block and we had really wonderful block parties. And I remember, you know, they would block up the street in the summer and we look forward to, you know, the, some, some kids would play double Dutch and some kids would dance, right?

They would have like these like little dance shows on the block and you know, people, the food and the smells and the, you know, there are other, in our community, it was like, families came from all different places. And so we had like a Puerto Rican family. We had a, a family from Ghana, a family from Guyana, African-American families, right? Were on the block. There was a biracial family that was on the block. It was so, it was just like every, you know, I felt like I was exposed to everything and everyone, and I got to not just the, the have the, the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, but it was like everyone's different foods and different, I remember I had Kanika's grandmother one time made crabs, and I remember it was the first time I had like crabs before, right? Like, and it was the way she prepared it. And like, she's like, you know, showed us how to, how to open it.

Like, I don't know. It was very different from, and it wasn't foreign to me. 'cause like in Belize we have crabs, but it, you know, so it was like the, just the mixing and mishmash of all these different cultures come together in one place in a way that is so beautiful and celebratory in, in addition to the discipline of everyone's grandmothers and parents all raising us together and sharing like that knowledge, right? Like sharing the tutoring and sharing the, this and that. It was, it was, it was fun.

Phillip: [00:13:59] Yeah. That's so special. I mean, they're just such like, kind picturesque like patchwork quintessentially American communities, you know, like, like you said. And the peanut butter jelly sandwich is kind of a beautiful expression of that. I literally like that story.

Shantel: [00:14:12] I never, I don't think I've ever said that out loud. And that was like my first time having peanut butter jelly. But it, it really was. Yeah,

Phillip: [00:14:19] It's interesting that things you remember, you know, and kind of like what they could symbolize, but that's cool. One of the greatest culinary combinations. I'm glad, glad you got an exposure. So let's see. I mean, yeah, thanks for just kind of walking me, you know, through the neighborhood. I always so much enjoy that. And, and when did, like, you know, you had this very idyllic experience of your childhood. When did like this stigma come in of like, oh, associations with Brownsville? Was that when you started going to like, other neighborhoods for school or school? Where did that come from?

Shantel: [00:14:53] So for the most part, I stayed in the neighborhood for school, but just being in school with other, other kids, like, I started to realize, like there was a perception of the, so, so Brownsville has the highest concentration of public housing in the country. And so I know that there was a stigma of different projects. And so for example, you had Van Dyke and Tilden Houses, which were kind of across from us. And it was like, you know, when you go to school, other students would talk about how, oh, don't go to Tilden, that's dangerous, or don't go to Van Dyke, that's dangerous.

Somebody got beat up, or, or Plaza is all is dangerous. Like, you know, that's where Mike Tyson was from. So, you know, don't go there. The boxers come from there. You know, so there were all the, all of the stigma associated with being from Brownsville or, you know, coming into contact with other kids who are not from Brownsville saying, oh my goodness, you're from Brownsville, right? Like, oh no, I'm scared of you. And not understanding what that was. Because, because of, you know, the stories that I just shared with you, like everyone that I knew in my community, whether they were from the projects or from the Nehemiah homes, they were wonderful, kind, warm people.

Lots of the people who came, who came to live in the Nehemiah houses came from the projects. And so I, it, you know, knowing that people had the stigma towards us was very, or towards Brownsville was weird. And then later on it became that if you're from the, they called the houses, the new houses then. And so it was like, oh, if you're from the new houses, you think you're better than us. So somehow, or if you're from the new houses, you're like, you're like from the gated community in Brownsville, which was like, kind of a joke because it's still in Brownsville.

So it's like, you're like the special people who are still from the hood. I don't know. So there's all kinds of different, like, ideas that people had about what being from Brownsville or being from Nehemiah, and they, they were often very com contradictory ideas.

Phillip: [00:17:33] Yeah, no, that, that sounds really complex. And kind of to get more into like the, just to structure the community. I mean, if you talk to someone from like EBC, they're gonna be like, one of the points in Nehemiah was like, obviously EBC at that time was really exclusively made up of like religious congregations, east Brooklyn churches, you know, and they wanted to preserve the communities that the churches existed in, you know, have people to come to the churches. You know, it's just this time when a lot of, like long time church leaders were moving away and et cetera. So, I mean, I know you, your home is really close to our Lady of Mercy and your family developed a relationship with, with Father Mason when he was there. So could you just talk a little bit about like the church aspect of, of growing up there?

Shantel: [00:18:15] Yeah. I mean, well, so my grandmother, she was the church goer. And so she, she, the beauty about it is that, so my, my family is like tri-lingual where the, they speak English, Spanish and Garifuna. And the church was a place where, you know, all of the languages were spoken, right? There was a Garifuna community. A lot of people don't know what Garifuna is, but there was also Spanish, right? So we had bilingual masses. And so my grandmother went early in the morning to like, and she would drag us to church at like six A.M. Six a.m or seven A.M. like a bilingual mass, or there's the, the Christmas Eve mass or after Christmas mass, new Year's, ma there's a bunch of masses that my grandmother used to go to.

Shame on me for not remembering all of them, but, and so that was, you know, at the tho that was the church I was baptized and, and you know, I went to classes for my confirmation. And so we started developing, a lot of our meetings were there too for the home ownership meetings were in the churches. And so if it was for religious purposes or not, it, the church was like a meeting place. We had dance community events in the basement of the church that were welcome to everyone. So it was a definitely a place that we congregated. It wasn't until after, I think Father Mason came there after, 'cause I know when I was younger, when I was baptized, it was like a father, father Spangler, I believe was the one who was the priest of the, of the church. Later on we connected with Father Mason and through a lot of the work that I was doing in school or with the Brownsville community interviewing, that's how I, I connected with Father Mason when I was older.

Phillip: [00:20:28] Okay, interesting. So that'll be kind of a good pivot into sort of your research around the Nehemiah but before I get to that, I just wanna ask just one more question about sort of your growing up. But were, were there any other really important like people or places in your life that kind of like shaped the person you would become?

Shantel: [00:20:48] Hmm. I mean, I, I just, I think overall the community was like, you know, my, my neighbors helped to, to to shape who I was because they were definitely a part of the people who disciplined me or, or taught me, right. You know. So I think just being exposed to that, like that kind of family oriented like village, it takes a village to raise a child type of thing was important for me to, to be a part of growing up. So yeah, aside from from that and like school, like I was always a big nerd. I'm still a nerd and I'm always was a nerd. I like love go like my teachers. And you know, I had really important, you know, my, my teachers were really important to me. But yeah, I, I think aside from that, I like, I, I can't think of specific names of, of of people, but yeah, the c the community Brownsville raised me.

Phillip: [00:22:01] I love it. I love it. And let's talk some about the teachers. I mean, who are, who are some particular teachers who kind of put you on the path you're on now?

Shantel: [00:22:09] Yeah, I I, I think because I was always like the, the quiet, like nerdy kid I always wanted to do. Well, all my, I was always like the teacher's pet. So in at every level. Like, I had a teacher in elementary school, no, that was junior high school. So in elementary school, I, I remember all my teachers, it's so crazy. in kindergarten, I'm not gonna go through all of them. I'm just gonna go through the, the like specific ones. There's a kindergarten teacher named Ms. Moses. I think she was like a teacher's aid actually. And she was just, I remember her when I was trying to read my first book.

Like, I was like, I have to learn how to read this book and I'm gonna read it to the class. And she was the one who suggested, Shantel, you should read this book to the class. And I was like, I can't read the whole book. And I was like, I'm gonna learn how to read this whole book. And so because she gave me that opportunity, I was like, I'm gonna read this whole book. And she's just so sweet. And then Ms. Pendleton was my fifth grade teacher at 184. So 184 was the school closest to, and right in kind of in the Miami is, and Ms. Pendleton was my fifth grade teacher.

And she always used to say, that's my blunder when she made a mistake. And we would always say, Ms. Pendleton, say, that's my bad, that's my bad, that's cool. But she was just this really, like, I knew, I, I didn't know what smart, like my perception of smart then what, like what it meant. But I, I knew that this woman was very well read and the way she talked, like the way she talked about books and stuff, like, she was really smart to me and just wise.

And so I was just like, oh, I love Ms. Pendleton. And Ms. McKee was my science teacher and 75. And she was scary because science was scary to me and it was hard. And she was very serious about science and she pushed me. And I, I really appreciated that. And I, like, I scored very highly on science even though it was like hard for me. And oh my God, I went to high school in Canarsie and I had a guidance counselor, miss, miss Dollinger, who like was like gonna fight for me to be the best person that I could be. And she really pushed me into opportunities. I went to Germany as a high school student, youth, youth ambassador after 9/11 because of her nomination.

I still am in touch with my high school English and social studies teachers from, from Canarsie because they also like pushed me to be my very best, helped me with college applications and everything. They were amazing. And so because of the people in the community who were like, like, you're gonna win because we want to, like, we are so invested in your growth, we're we want you to win and we're gonna be like, sure to put our hands in, like pushing you up. Even if it, like, if it's just, it hurts you a little bit, right? Because they're, they're gonna push me, right? That's how you build muscle, right? And so yeah, I, I, I owe everything to to, to those folks.

Phillip: [00:25:49] That's amazing. And then when did you, where, where did you end up going for college and, and how did you get into like sort of interviewing other folks in Brownsville?

Shantel: [00:25:58] I went to college in Rhode Island. I went to Bryant College in Smithfield, Rhode Island. Rhode Island was a, definitely a culture shock. It was different, but I, I studied communication. I knew that like, because of all of the people that I named from high school, like they, I was the Canarsies. They created a position for me, which was like high school sports information director because they knew I wanted to be a journalist. And I like started, my parents got me a camera at some point and I was like going around the house going, Hey, this is the Palacio family kitchen and mom, what are you cooking today? And she'd be like, if you don't get that camera on my face. And I'd be like, oh, okay, so you're making eggs, dad, what are you, can you tell me about the eggs? And he would start telling jokes and she'd be like, if you don't get that camera on my face.

So . So that's how I started. Like, I was just kind of harassing and annoying people with the camera. And then I went to school for communication. And then when I came back after school, I, I worked for the Department of Education and like I did more school and then worked for the Department of Education. But I realized like in my professional life that there was always the stigma. Like people would say, oh, you're smart and you're educated and you're like, you know, well-dressed, I don't know. And then I would say, I'm from, they'd go, where are you from, from Brownsville? They'd be like, oh, are you sure? Do you not wanna be from somewhere else? And I'm like, well actually there's this wonderful history about Brownsville.

There's this, you know, you know, wonderful things about my, my community and how it came to be. And it talks about the, the resilience and the, the strength of the people. Like when they come together and, you know, people don't really wanna hear that story. They wanna stick to their narrative about what, what Brownsville is. It's a scary place where, you know, low-income people of color live. And it's kind of sad. So I was like, I'm gonna do something about it. I'm gonna make a movie, but I was gonna make a movie. I had never been to film school. I don't know how to edit. It was very, very naive and, and whatever. I was just like, I'm gonna take this camera.

And I started interviewing people in the community and I said, I'm gonna make a documentary. And I didn't quite make the documentary. I put together interviews in small clips and yeah. And then came Brownsvillain, which was the, the website and everything that I used to, to talk about it. And then some filmmakers hit me up and they were like, Hey, let's, we're working on a film about Brownsville, can you co-produce this with us? And so more things started happening, but, but it was all because like, I got to, I, you know, I owe everything to like Nehemiah as well because, you know, I got to see the beauty of a place that other people saw as not beautiful. And so, you know, I had the opportunity to show people what that looked like from my lens.

Phillip: [00:29:26] Yeah. When you were, when you first got into doing the interviews for your initial project, what did you learn from those? And then I'd be curious to hear more about this like, documentary project you got involved in.

Shantel: [00:29:36] Yeah, so from the first set of interviews, it was really about kind of humanizing the, the community. So it was talking to, to teachers, talking to people who I consider celebrities that came out of Brownsville and, and asking them about their Brownsville experience. And people definitely did talk about hardships, but the hardships were about n not having access to opportunities, right? And so knowing that they wanted to do something wonderful with themselves, but, you know, not, not knowing how.

And so, not, not everyone that I interviewed in the first round of that project was from me and Maya. Some folks were, were just from, you know, from, from Brownsville. And so they talked about, there was a guy who's a boxer, Daniel Jacobs, he's from Brownsville. He just talked about, you know, how he, he wanted to protect himself from, from bullies and ended up learning how to box and became this like big famous boxer now. But some of the folks who were from Nehemiah, I could think about of the Afflecks, who was a Panamanian family that lives on, on my block. And you know, they talked about just wanting to have a stable place to live without being price gouged.

You know, they were dealing with the price gouging from all these other parts of the, of New York, you know, and it was discrimination, right? Same with a, with an, another family, a Puerto Rican family who talked about, you know, the, the price gouging from all over the city, especially just because they were Puerto Rican, right? They were being pushed out of different areas every time they found the stable place to live. It was like, oh, can't live here anymore, 'cause my landlord doesn't want a Puerto Rican in here. Right? Like, so then being able to live in, you know, find Nehemiah and live in Nehemiah afforded them the opportunity to, like, raise their children in a safe place with stability, you know, with access to schools, right?

Just up the street. And so, so yeah, that stability and, and space really, I think, is a common theme that I heard. And then the ability to kind of, you know, turn that around this, this, I don't know this, if it, if it's the stigma or what, but be being able to, now that you have the space to turn that around to make it work for, for you or your family, like, like everyone kind of said the similar, similar things.

Phillip: [00:32:43] Yeah. One of my favorite interviews so far was with this guy named Alberto Hernandez, who is also in Brownsville. And he talked about that the discrimination piece. Like he grew up in the projects and like Alphabet City and like had wonderful stories of growing up there, like really, really loved that place. Like that's probably like the most, you know, similar to Nehemiah is for you. Like for him, it was like that place really shaped me. Like I really valued the sense of community we had in the projects, and then had the experience of, like, as an adult, like trying to move in knowing the neighborhood, like knowing what apartments were vacant.

Like, I know no one's living there, like why can't I move in here? And then just kind of constantly getting like, turned away for like, sort of vague reasons. And that's really what spurred him to finally like, you know, he was a little bit skeptical of some of the affordable housing opportunities out in Brooklyn. Like he'd heard things about the neighborhood, but you know, he said like eventually, you know, Alphabet City, just like they didn't want me. So, I mean, that's what really pushed me to, you know, pursue the Nehemiah homeownership. So yeah, really similar. I mean, like across the board things I'm hearing too is it's, that's a big piece of it. And something you mentioned last time we talked is just like, in terms of like the social and kind of historical significance of Nehemiah, and you alluded to this earlier, but just like how diverse the communities were and are as crazy, you know, like because of, in part because Brownsville is a place where a lot of people have historically gotten like dumped as you said sort of last time we talked. But just talk more about that, just like as a researcher, you know, and the more you've looked into this, like the significance of like the diversity in these communities.

Shantel: [00:34:14] Communities. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, tell me if I'm nerding out too much or if I'm going too far.

Phillip: [00:34:21] Never, never.

Shantel: [00:34:23] I'm gonna start very briefly in the 1800s when, so Brownsville was created to, to be a community that took Jewish immigrants, like it was kind of like a, a a, a place where they brought Jewish immigrants to work. I think it was in factories, but it was far away from where a lot of the unions were. So it was like, let's separate the workers from the unions so that they, they don't have access to power. Eventually Brownsville became a Jewish ghetto. And so, and this is how the, the the, the books refer to it that I, that I've read. And it was like a place where they did not offer basic public services, right? So garbage pickup, all of these things, you know, basic, basic public services did not extend to, to Brownsville.

Eventually it became a place where, where like, so black people were pushed out of a lot of the neighboring communities, right? So the, the bordering communities. And so when there was a, guess this, my, I don't remember, I don't know if I wanna call this the second migration of African-Americans north or whoever, but there was an increase in the population of African-Americans to Brooklyn and kind of Brownsville was one of the only places where it was like, okay, we could coexist here with the Jewish community and, and just be, and so it became an increasingly black and Jewish population. And so from the beginning of time, I will say not the beginning of time, but from early on, early, it was a place where I, I would, I'll say people sought refuge, right?

And were able to kind of have the space and coexist eventually, you know, the community kind of banded together to request mixed housing, better housing. You know, there were different points in time where they would ask for, for affordable housing. And these things were not provided by the city, right? The city was, wanted Brownsville to be the dumping ground for every, I guess particularly with Robert Moses who built the roads. And you know, he, he, there there are many quotes from Robert Moses about how he wanted Brownsville to be the place where, you know, people he pushed out of other places would go and live. And so they created these, the tenement buildings, the projects and, and intentionally segregated them even though that's not what the community asked for. They asked for integrated housing, they asked for mixed income housing.

And so again, to go back to Nehemiah and, and talk about Nehemiah actually being the hope, being the, the representation of, of things that people fought for, even though they were not heard by the, by the city, you know, this is Nehemiah is something that they, that the community created on their own. It's something that they asked for, they asked for school, they asked for educational campus. A lot of people don't know this, but that's not something that that was offered. And so when you look at Brownsville and the conditions in, in the community were, you know, it's, it's kind of in some place some ways dilapidated. It is, it's forgotten, right? But it's not because that's what the people wanted. People asked for this and didn't, didn't never got it. So I think Nehemiah really represents the, the, the history of people trying to like really band together and create something on their own because they kind of have no other choice.

Phillip: [00:38:58] Yeah, I mean, I think in organizing we talk about as far as like diversity, importance, and diversity, it's like just more diverse group of people like expands your imagination. Like, you just have a lot of different lived experiences coming together, and obviously just like bases of power, right? Like different communities that can then combine to have an increased influence over the city.

Things you're saying. But yeah, I just like Nehemiah is like the most powerful example that I've seen. I think I told you that, you know, the first nine conversations I had, it was like, it was every one of them was with someone from like a different country, you know, which is just, you know, there's so few places in like the US that are like that. So yeah, I mean, and then could you just say a little bit more about like, we went from this, you know, in the case of Nehemiah, like high concentration of poverty in a lot of parts of Brownville, and it's still true today, but I mean those parts where, you know, housing had a big impact, like going from that high concentration of poverty to this like, idea of generational wealth.

Shantel: [00:39:53] Yeah. So it still has the highest concentration of poverty and highest concentration of, of, of public housing. And Nehemiah was the opportunity to bring in mixed, mixed income and, and create generational wealth. And so there, there are single family homes in, or, or multi-family homes now in Brownsville, but they're also large mostly, you know, you have this, the, the, the the public housing units. And so there were a number of protests in Brownsville to get to attract kind of the, a middle income unit, especially because the city dumps shelters, the city jumps at a disproportionate rate compared to other, other neighborhoods.

This is, this is Brownsville is where they wanna dump everything all over the shelters. So I think you need to have some kind of mixed income, right? You can't have a location that is like just constant, highly concentrated poverty, which is what the city created. And so Nehemiah gave families the opportunity to do that. And what what happens with homeownership is that, you know, families then are able to build an asset, right? And so I know a lot of families that talked about, oh gosh, there's this family I interviewed that talked about, you know, paying down their house, but then the having the ability to pull money out of the, the mortgage in order to pay for their child's college. And so it gave them access to, to capital that they would not otherwise have. And so it also, the stability gave them access to pay for school for themselves. So I know another family where the wife wanted to become a teacher, she ended up getting her master's degree.

She's a bilingual, bilingual teacher and, and ended up getting two master's degrees, but because she had the access to capital by pulling that money out of her home and then eventually paying it off. So, so yeah, I created opportunities in so many different ways, but if you don't have mixed income, then you can't bring those resources into a community. The community then is, is consistently de dependent on the city and it creates this crazy cycle of, of, you know, dependency that, that people just can't get out of. But Nehemiah kind of offset that and created a little bit more balance. And I think we definitely need more of that, but we can't if we, how homes are just kind of dwindling.

Phillip: [00:42:58] Right. Right. And I wanna get into that kind of the, the like idea of preservation and just to concerns now, but just what you're saying is making me think of like, like I did another royal history project about kind of NYCHA and like organizing to improve living conditions in NYCHA. And just what I learned about NYCHA is like, you know, FDR's original vision for it was like public housing was a stepping stone, obviously to like home ownership, the American dream, etc.

But it's like didn't become that because there wasn't really like enough places like Nehemiah for people to go, you know, like there wasn't enough, never has been enough like affordable housing in the city and it's like dwindling as the years go by. So yeah, I mean I just think Brownsville's example it like shows kind of the flaws in that system you're talking about, like the dependency and it's just like, you know, there's just no other option, right. So yeah, I just wanted to bring out that point, but is there anything before we kind of talk about like the present, anything else you wanna say around just what you've learned about kind of Nehemiah its significance is like this really his, you know, this historic like intervention in kind of this larger like field of like systemic injustice really?

Shantel: [00:44:04] Yeah, I mean I think one of the biggest thing is, is that it, it took away a lot of the barriers that exist for people who were trying to own homes, right? So like, you know, having a lower down payment, I can't remember all of the different pieces of the application and process, but that made it easier, right?

You're not dealing with this, this I do, I do think they had high interest rates and eventually the community got together to kind of fight to lower those interest rates on the, on the, on the homes. But you know, there are plenty of people who are, who are looking for homes and who want the opportunity to, to, to, to buy homes. But that is not affordable. There are really a lot of barriers to home ownership. And so it, it just, it definitely created space, it created wealth, right?

Generational wealth, right? So like families can either decide to sell their homes, the homes is, it is an asset that appreciates or they can pass that home on to, you know, their children or their grandchildren or whatever. And so more of these opportunities need to be created. You have a lot of folks who are trying to look at ways to, you know, do something about housing, particularly in communities that have been redlined or segregated like Brownsville. And I think that's a way to, like, that's an like a easy no brainer way to give back.

But I do not think that a lot of people thought this, that Nehemiah would be successful. I don't think that at the time that they thought it was going to be a win. I think that folks were waiting for it to fail. I think that they, they thought like, you know, folks were trying to think about how do we create as many houses as possible safely and nicely but cheaply, right? In order to get the, a bigger bang for your buck.

How do we take these homes and put them in kind of a community that like is to the opinion of many at the time was falling apart and turned it into something that is like actually creating opportunities for the people who live in them. And it did that, like, I don't know many examples in history that did that. When you think about housing, when you think about generational wealth, Nehemiah did it and did it very well. So take that haters.

Phillip: [00:46:52] Love it. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think like you just said, like, and this will get us into like the contemporary dilemmas, but so much of the challenges with like this thing that was really at first like a, a generational solution, like a solution for a generation of homeowners became this intergenerational thing. So then it's like, what do you now do? Like what do you know this, I've heard a lot of the presidents of homeowners associations be like, well, we have to encourage people to keep the homes in their families, which is obviously like a slippery slope, you know?

I mean, people live their lives and maybe they want to, you know, take advantage of their equity and sell their home and go live somewhere else, you know? So it's like, you know, there's this tension around like what's on the homeowners to kind of do, to preserve the community versus what can the city do to preserve the community, you know, versus like, let's just build more homes. So, I mean, what's your take on kind of like what you're seeing happening, what you're seeing happen in the community where you grew up versus like what you want to see happen?

Shantel: [00:47:44] So I think there are two separate things. I think one is definitely the preservation of Nehemiah, however, Nehemiah is no longer affordable homeownership, right? It's, it's, it's done what it, what what home ownership is supposed to, to do, right? Homes appreciate and value. And so I don't think of it as affordable anymore. And families should have the right to sell their homes at market value, otherwise the program would not be successful. I do think it should be preserved because the legacy of of this is important. It's historic, it's, there's all the history around it.

There's like, you know, it, it should be preserved and not knocked down into these giant buildings, multi-purpose buildings. Because there goes like that, that's not the community that we, people fought, people fought for their mailboxes, people fought for their, you know, it's a community and it's serving, it's doing what it was intended to do. So I don't think that should be erased. I do think that there needs to be more affordable home ownership opportunities and the city or maybe a coalition of people, banks, I don't know, need to get together to do that because it's, it's good. It worked, but it wasn't just like the, the building aspect, right?

It wasn't just like, okay, there is this affordable home. It was an affordable community, right? That was built and it was purposed around like a school and a park and a, like all of these things. So that's what made this project special. People talked in, in my interviews about wanting to live in a community and be in a, be a part of a community, not just like, have one building that's slapped in the middle of somewhere.

You know? So I think that's, that's one piece. Yeah. And it needs, it, it definitely just needs to be preserved. So I, I don't know. I don't know how to do that. People talked about land trust, you know, creating a land trust or, you know, I don't know how to, if there's a status that it could be designated as, I don't think it's, we have enough years into have it be like a historic district, but, but it does have an important legacy and I think the people who fought for it to, to be there, you know, should be remembered.

Phillip: [00:50:48] Yeah, absolutely. And maybe let's take it just in closing, like back to you and just sort of how, you've said a lot about how growing up there like really shaped your life, but just what you're doing now and kind of your like vision for the future. Like obviously Nehemiah is very wrapped up in all of that. So just talk about a little of, you know, what's ahead for you and, and how kind of being invested in the preservation of the memory of this community has like, become a big part of your life.

Shantel: [00:51:15] Yeah, I always tell people I didn't know that I came all the way to New Hampshire to write about Brownsville, but I did, if I knew that I probably would've stayed in Brownsville. But yeah, I think what's next for me, I'm, I'm doing a PhD, I'm looking at de double segregated communities in, in my dissertation. A lot of that is going to be tied to Brownsville. I have a whole section on, on Brownsville. Yeah. So this, this all like, I'm, I'm coming full circle now at this point of my life, and I still have so much left, left to live.

But I think, yeah, it definitely shaped me, right? Like if I didn't grow up in the community, then I wouldn't have the, I probably would have the perspective of everyone else that, that's like a dangerous, scary neighborhood and all the people are dangerous and scary. But the reality is that it's, it's a, it is a place that needs to be nurtured in taking care of like any other place. It's definitely, you know, because I'm studying it, I've wrapped the past like, you know, three, four years of my life into understanding the context around this community and, and others like it. So yeah, it's, the people have shaped me. Everything about this place has shaped me. I'm, I'm very much, I'm very much a Brownsville Nehemiah kid.

Phillip: [00:52:52] And you mentioned the people. I just, I always like to close, you know, kind of reflecting on relationships, which is obviously like such a big part of community and also organizing and, and obviously of the work you do, you know, researching. So maybe start with Father Mason, just talk about how you kind of connected to him and then any other relationships that you haven't talked about yet that you might want to just give people a shout out.

Shantel: [00:53:12] Yeah, definitely Father Mason. Father Mason is like die hard. Like he, this is what he lives for. He really cares about the people. He really cares about the community. You know, he, he really fights to, to connect with people and, and, and continue to build and protect this community. And so, so yeah, I don't know all of the, the lives that he's influenced and, and and touched, but I, I do think that that, yeah, he, he definitely gets like the biggest shout out, but also EBC for like, you know, there's so many folks who, whose names I, I don't all know that like created the homes, right? And so like, they get all the, all the credit in the world. So yeah.

Phillip: [00:54:10] Was there any, anything we missed?

Shantel: [00:54:16] Probably, but

Phillip: [00:54:19] Tough to pack into an hour. I know

Shantel: [00:54:20] There's so, there's so much to, there's so much to say about just, I don't know, it's, yeah, it is hard to, to pack into an hour, and I'm probably used to giving like these short sound bites. Yeah. Of information. But I hope I I hope I gave gave you enough info. Yeah, I don't know. This, this place is, is is just very special to me, and it's like the reason I am who I am. So yeah.

Phillip: [00:54:53] No, absolutely. It is a beautiful interview. I mean, I really revere this process, so I just appreciate you for sharing your stories with me. Yeah, I think there's a ton that'll be really helpful in sort of the project we're going to put together and you're just like, yeah, I've been so excited about this conversation because having the lived experience along with just all the research you've done, like you just bring so much to, to kind of enrich my understanding of it.

And yeah, there there's more to be done for sure. So I would love to like maybe check out some of your writing as, as we're putting this together. I know you're just writing allows you to kind of go in depth in a way that you all can't always in a hour conversation. So I'd love to read some of that and kind of inform the project that way. Let me stop the recording real quick, and then we can do a little.