Carmen Daniels

Phillip: [00:00:00] All right. Today is Thursday, February 8th. We're here at the Nehemiah office in Brooklyn, New York. I'm Phillip Norman. I'm speaking with Carmen Daniels. Would you like to introduce yourself for the recording?

Carmen: [00:0:10] Sure. My name is Carmen Daniels. I am originally from Guyana, South America. And I always like to tell that it's the only South American country that doesn't speak Spanish. We are more aligned to the Caribbean. And I am here now since 1983 in America, and I've become displaced from my home now because when I go back to Guyana, it is not the same. I cannot function there. So I don't know if that's important, but that's me in a nutshell.

Phillip: [00:00:45] Yeah

Carmen: [00:00:46] I have two children, two girls, four grandsons, and very happy to own a Nehemiah home because I did not been for Nehemiah, would not have been even a homeowner, I think.

Phillip: [00:01:00] Wow! Okay, Yeah. Well, we'll get a little bit more into that, but yeah. I would like to hear some more about Guyana. 'Cause I don't, it's a country not a lot of people know a lot about and the history of it.

Carmen:[00:01:10] When we say, when we say Guyana, they say Ghana.

Phillip:[00:01:11] Right, right.

Carmen: [00:01:12] Ghana! Ghana! I said no. Yeah.

Phillip: [00:01:14] Yeah. So just tell us a little bit about the history of that country.

Carmen: [00:01:17] Well, it was from the time I could remember, it had been owned by the British, it'd been owned by the Dutch. I think there's some French background there. But it's a place beautiful, it's a country. Many times people think it's an island, but it's a country. And it's bordered by Brazil and Venezuela and the Atlantic, the Amazon Forest is there. We have a lot of uncharted land because it's so wide. And the, the rivers and to get to those places, they're not developed. But it's a beautiful place. And we have one of the highest waterfall, the Kite Shore, but it's so hard to get to that. I've never seen it in person. People have come from other countries and gone, but I'm not so adventurous.

But it got its independence in 1966, I think. But like all of the, many of the Caribbean islands and places, it was, slavery was part of the establishment. And I recall having an uncle who worked, even though slavery had been abolished in 1883 or whenever there, I remember having an uncle who worked with one of the colonial owners in one of the homes that they still occupy for quite a while. And as a little kid, I used to go hang out with my cousins. He had a little house on the side of the big house. We used to call it Big Greenhouse because it was green and white, so they called it Green House. I remember all of those things as a, as a little kid.

And bit by bit, you know, politics, the, the people became interested in taking over. And after a while, the local politicians took over. And I think it was, we became a republic. You ask me which year, I don't remember right now. But it became a republic. So it became the Republic of Ghana. And the word is an Amerindian word. It used to be spelled G-U-I-A-N-A. But when we became a republic, they changed it to G-U-Y-A-N-A. And it comes from the Native Americans who first occupied Guyana, like everywhere else it seems. And it means the land of many waters. And that's what, that's what that's all about.

But bit by bit, you know, the politicians took over. Some were good, some were not so good. We have vestiges of of six, six races there, as we had first the Native Americans, and then the Europeans came, they brought the blacks. And then when they were having problems with that and slavery was abolished, the Indians were brought from India. And we had the Portuguese, the Chinese came. So it's, I don't know if the word is conglomeration of all these cultures, these races and cultures, the food is the same.

Phillip: [00:05:00] Yeah.

Carmen: [00:05:01] So we have Chinese, British, like we would've the, the fried rice and the lambing and the shepherd's pie and, and you know, different foods. We have food from Africa. So it's, it's, it's a hodgepodge of things that we ended up, like for me, I like to cook. And my curry chicken, for instance, that the Indians are noted for is not the same as they would make it, because we adapt all of these native dishes. So in a nutshell, that's us. That's Guyana!

Phillip: [00:05:32] That's quite a diversity of people in a pretty small place too. Right?

Carmen: [00:05:35] It's not that small. It's compared to America, of course, it's small. Right, right. But compared-

Phillip: [00:05:45] Compared to Brazil, Venezuela.

Carmen: [00:05:46] Yes. Compared to the other countries and islands, it's, it's like 83,000 square miles. But much of the land is not unused 'cause it's so hard to get to. Right. The coast, which is bordered by the Atlantic, that's the most populated part of the country. And that's where our city capital is located. Also Georgetown. And we are divided into three major counties. We call them counties. Like, oh, you have states there, there are three of them. So it's Esquivel, Demerara, and Burbese. And most of the main building, not buildings, but you know, like what we have the state office and all of that is in the Demerara in Georgetown. Yeah.

Phillip: [00:06:43] So I'm interested in a little bit, I mean, just to hear about what it was like to grow up there, but also specifically, so this green house where your uncle, so that was a former plantation. Especially, right? You had played there growing up

Carmen: [00:06:51] Yeah. And still remain a plantation sort of, because they, there was this thing in Guyana where it was so racist at one time that the people were taught that if you were light-skinned, you were better. So people kind of grew up with that. And so the, the lighter you were, the better your job was. Those are the people who were able to work in the banks. They got the best of the jobs. And as you got, as the, this color got darker, you had to, it was just like slavery. You, you didn't get those jobs.

I remember once when I graduated from high school, being at a pharmacy, pharmacists, I, I wanted something to do. Went and applied for the job. They gave us math addition, subtraction, division. The thing was like first grade or you know, kindergarten, whatever. And then when I got the results, they said, oh, you did not pass the exam. I was sitting there cussing and carrying on like a nut. I'm sorry. And somebody said to me, what is wrong with you? Don't you know that they would not hire you? Look at the people who work there. And when I did, I went back deliberately to check on the workers and everybody was what we used to say, red-skinned, nobody looked like me.

So that kind of racism existed. I remember an aunt of mine who came to this country when I was very young and returned after about 12 years or so. And when I went to visit her, the first thing she said to me is, how come you got so dark? You never used to be so dark. I'm looking at her like, are you crazy? What part of me changed? But that was the mindset of some people. It was not only that you were fighting against the vestiges of the people who, who came and took over and remained there because they came for the gold, the diamond, the bauxite. To me, every country that had these things, especially the British.

Phillip: [00:09:27] Right

Carmen: [00:09:28] Didn't name me, see that they went there and pillaged. Right. So the vestiges of that was left. And the people who were born in the country didn't know any better. They didn't know better. So they, they perpetuated the same kind of mentality.

Phillip: [00:09:47] Right, That colonial structure is kind of in place.

Carmen: [00:09:49] Even now, the Indians and the black people are always at each other. And then there's the Chinese who are very insidious in coming in and doing business and taking over things. And they don't do much talking. They just act. And many of the businesses, you go to Guyana now, many of the businesses are owned by the Chinese.

Phillip: [00:10:18] Right, right. So still a lot of like racial strife.

Carmen: [00:10:20] Oh yes. Yeah. Lots of, lots of.

Phillip: [00:10:24] Right, right. So I mean, that was obviously a formative aspect of growing up there. What else do you wanna share about growing up? I know you wanted to be a teacher. Like why did you want to be a teacher growing up there?
 
Carmen: [00:10:34] I don't know. There was just this part of me that just taught from, from, I think since I opened my mouth, since I could remember walking and talking. I was teaching something. I don't know what I was teaching, I can't remember. But I used to, we have a lot of chickens and, and ducks and I used to try to catch them to teach as that come sit. I don't know where I learned that from, but it was just this in innate love food, like teaching, imparting some kind of knowledge too.

But I went to school very late. My mom, who didn't really care about well, schooling too much. She, you know, like kept me home for a while. So this going to school at in kindergarten, going preschool, I didn't do, I think I started at seven, which was old for going to school. And it took the people in the education system in the village used to call them welfare fear officers or something to come to find out why is this child still home, you know? But Fortunately for me, I was able to, I caught on very quickly and I had very, very good, really kind teachers. Maybe they saw something in me and was able to, you know, develop whatever it was. It was kind of latent, I guess. But it came out.

And I, like I said, I always wanted to teach so much so that my teachers, we had the old-time school, I don't know, you guys wouldn't know about that. And I think it, it was in America at some point in time where you have one big space and several classes are in that space. You don't have classrooms. So everybody sees what everybody else is doing. And sometimes, I remember as a kid, my headmaster, the before school I went to, he had one leg and it was a two-floor building. So when he went up, no elevators, so when he went up there in the morning, he's not coming back down. So if the teacher had to go to him, they would ask me to hold the class. So I was, I, I guess they saw once again, saw something. And I would be holding the class until the teacher came back and so on.

I would be teaching my sick cousins, siblings, whoever could find. And if they, when I wasn't at school, when, before I started, when they came home, everybody went before me. And you know, we lived kind of close to each other. So when they came home and they're telling me something, I'm teaching them back. I said, okay. That was a, that is always all started. We just wanted to teach.

Phillip: [00:13:36] Wow. That was very like, intuitive.

Carmen: [00:13:38] Yeah, I guess so, you know, teacher

Phillip: [00:13:41] Barrow was someone who you mentioned as a

Carmen: [00:13:42] Influential person. Oh yes. Oh my gosh. Teacher Barrow, very small, petite lady. I recall her because she was one of my, she was my first teacher. And I think she really set this, set things in motion for me because she would know. I had a, a, a, a little abuse. I, I don't know if I should say a little, but sometimes parents don't even know what they're doing. My mom was abusive parents. She, they, they and guy, these people beat you for whatever. But this one was ex she was overly abusive. And sometimes I think teacher Barrow would detect when things are not right.

And she would just take me and like, sit me in a, in some special seat, put me up one day. I remember being put on the table in a corner to sit with my bit of banana. It's an image that after I don't know how many years now, you gotta be more than 60 years. I still remember because it was such a, I don't know that day, I don't remember what happened, but I know it was not a good day. And I know that that made such a difference in my life. Wow. Never forgot her. She passed a couple years ago and I was very sad that I was unable to go for back to Ghana for a funeral.

Phillip: [00:15:11] So she was the first teacher, you had

Carmen: [00:15:13] The very first teacher. Very first one.

Phillip: [00:15:16] And who were some other influential people in your formative years? You said your grandmother.

Carmen: [00:15:20] Oh, my grandmother and my great-grandmother. They were, I started off life, I think with them as my mom was away at work at the beginning of, I don't, I think my earliest memories of them is about about three years old that I remember things because I, and it's my mom who told me, because one of my uncles died. And I was describing to her, my mother's dead. Now I was describing to her an incident that occurred when my, the uncle died. He was in an accident in a plant and was burned severely. And I remember how everybody was bawling. You don't wanna see people in the car, especially Ghana. These people cry. When people die, they cry and want to jump into the, the, the grave and all of that stuff. So he was, they normally would bring the person to your home, to the home, and before they go to the cemetery or even the church. And so they were there and I recall everybody and everything that they were doing.

So one day, about five, six years ago, I'm telling my mother was still alive, maybe a little longer. And I'm telling her, I said, you know, I remember when Uncle Michael died and y'all were doing this, that, that, and Cousin Rita was doing such, such, such. I said, what? You remember that you were a little girl? I said, yeah, I remember, I remember the dress I had on blue with flowers on it. And, and I had on my little shoe and sock. And so you were three. I said, okay. Wow.

But I was living with my grandmother at the time and my great-grandmother, and they were the most loving kind, you know, they kind, they brought me up. And they were other family members that my, my mother's, my mother's two oldest, well my two older brothers and my grandmother's children. And I think they were the people who taught me, my grandmother and grandmother, great-grandmother taught me how to live, how to be kind to people. For instance, my grandmother. And they, both of them would say, do not let anybody come to your house. And you don't offer them something to drink. You don't offer them a meal. You, you know, things like that. And if they're coming, you know, they're coming. You know, you, you don't have a, a place that's so untidy that, things like that. So all of those formative things from all of those things from my formative years came from them.

And then out of the blue one day, my grandmother said I had to go live with my mother. And that changed my entire life because I didn't know her, my mom that well. I didn't know her that well, 'cause she, she wasn't living, she worked away from home at the, what she say, she worked at the hospital for the, an asylum for, for people with some kind, some kind of disease. And so she was not there. And to now go live with, I used to see her once in a while when she would visit. I, but we, we didn't know it. I didn't know her well. And so to go now to live with this person, I did not know that well. It was like a, so I remember looking at my grandmother, I said, and she said, you know, as a girl child, those are her words. Girl, children must sleep with their mothers. And so that was another different life altogether.

Phillip: [00:19:24] How old were you when that?

Carmen: [00:19:26] I am not sure. Maybe six. I'm not very sure. Because things became very little, like hazy after that. And it was so much, it was a stressful time.

Phillip: [00:19:41] Sure.

Carmen: [00:19:42] But I would be able to go back and visit my grandparents, my two grandmothers. Then my grandmother died and my great-grandmother was still there. My grandmother died before my mom. But I remember one of the things that happened between us, you know, when, most of the time when people are dying, they stay right home and maybe a doctor might come or not come. But the folks know that, okay, this person's going.

And I remember my great-grandmother was cradling my grandmother in her arms. Like she was laying on the bed. My grandmother was sitting there holding her. She turned to me and she said, your grandmother wants you to read something to her. I said, what? I said, I'm scared because you're hearing somebody's dying and I'm a little child. You wanna ask me to read to you? I, I'm scared. So I said to her, said, no, I'm scared. She said, no, no, no, no, no. You don't have to be scared. And she said, come read this story. Read something. I said, so what am I going to read? And I was heart-beating, you know?

Phillip: [00:20:57] Sure. Right.

Carmen: [00:20:58] She, so she said, read the 23rd psalm. And I read, and I remember very clearly my grandmother turned to me. She said, you see, she's gone now. That's all she wanted to hear from you. She just wanted to hear your voice.

Phillip: [00:21:15] Wow!

Carmen: [00:21:16]  And she died then. And in re at, at, at the time, like I said, I was scared, but in retrospect, I think it was a way of like apologizing to me because she knew what, what I went through with my mom. She knew that. Yeah. So

Phillip: [00:21:36 Some closure kind of.
 
Carmen: [00:21:37]  Yeah. But they were, they were both very loving, very kind. Never. I, I did, when, when my older siblings or and my aunts and uncles got themselves into trouble, I used to be misguided two shoes. And because I, I love them two ladies so much that I did not want to do anything to upset them. So I never got into any situation with them. Never was touched at all. My great-grandma used to take me fishing with her. She smoked a pipe and she would sit, we sat with a rod at the, the, the, we call them trenches.

And she would sit there and she would be, every, every two second she would do like this. And a fish is coming out and I'm getting restless. And I said, why I don't get a fish? She said, okay, you see why you don't get a fish, you gotta be still. And the moment I sat still, my first fish came up. I said, oh my gosh. Of course I never sat still again because so excited. Right. But there were very great memories with them when they passed. It was like a big loss.
 
Phillip: [00:22:43] Yeah. You sound like lovely people. What were their names?

Carmen: [00:22:46] Maybell was my great-grandmother and Rebecca great-grandmother. But we called my grandmother's sister. Me, I don't know why. That's what I grew up hearing them say that we got their sister, me and they, they combined it and we used to say stay. And then my great-grandmother, we call her Nana, I thought she was the most brilliant woman, my great-grandmother in the world, you know, because she would say, the meteorologists would say, oh my, it is raining today. We got radio, no television. So the radio listened to the weather report. Oh, it's gonna rain.

We had, we got two seasons in Guyana, rain or sun, rain or sun. And they would say about rain today. And she said, come girl. That was, those were her favorite words. Come girl. And she would say, look up there, there's this guy she's saying look up to. And she said, look, don't bother those people. You gonna get married rain today. And whatever. She said, that was what happened. That was what she was like.

Phillip: [00:23:53] Wow.

Carmen: [00:23:54] And I remember at the, remember the first, well you, you guys weren't born yet, but when the first people went to the moon, remember that lady calling me the day? She said, come you see that nonsense that they're doing there, sending people to God's place where he didn't tell them to go. It'll never the earth will never be the same again. She said, I would be dead when you all start to realize it. But you are going to tell people that. I said, so that was Nana.

Phillip: [00:24:23] Wise woman.

Carmen: [00:24:23] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:24:24] Yeah. Wow. Everyone I talked to about you says how kind you are. So I guess you get it from them.

Carmen: [00:24:30]  No, no. And sister, me stay. Right?
 
Phillip: [00:24:33] Right.

Carmen: [00:24:35] Yes. They brought me up and I never kind of, no matter what happened, I kind of stayed before they taught me. They taught you how to be respectful. Taught you how to, you know, they, they introduced me to church. We, we didn't have a, a church. Church. People used to come, missionaries used to succumb and they would go to different people's homes. And under the, we, our houses are on stilts, so there's always a space at the bottom. And because the weather is always good, you know, you put benches and whatever and sat there and you were taught. Yeah. So all of that was through then.

Phillip: [00:25:13] Gotcha, gotcha. Well, let's fast forward a little bit to, you graduated from the University of Ghana. Yeah. And then you were teaching?

Carmen: [00:25:20] Yeah, I was teaching before that.

Phillip: [00:25:22] Okay, gotcha.

Carmen: [00:25:23] Because you are allowed to teach, you can start teaching from 14 years old. They call your people teacher. But I didn't do that. I started, I went to high school first. And when I left high school, then I started to teach. And my first job by then, between, between my mom and my mom and dad were not together. And between my, my living with my mom, eventually I ended up living with my father and his family.

So I would be moving from one city to the next, like during their breaks for school, I would be with my father's sister in another, in a mining town called Wisma. And that's where I got my first teaching job at one of the schools there. And in fact, only yesterday, one of the, my, my former students called up to ask me to do something with his daughter. Wow. So I am still in contact with the students. I taught, they're in their sixties now. Right. I'm still in contact with some of them.

Phillip: [00:26:31] That's incredible.

Carmen: [00:26:32] Because we, we had a good relationship for some reason. I was 19 when I started, you know, 18 plus or something. And I worked there for two and a half years. Then I went to teacher's college. You can go directly from high school, you can go during, even before you go to high school, you can go through another path and still become a teacher. But I went through high school, then to the college, then to taught, taught first and then went to teacher's college. And I did the, what do you call the, in pre-service.

So I was able to go fully not work at all and go for two years from that certificate, it give you a teacher's certificate. I was able to get education credits when I came here based on that. And then from that I started to teach again. By then I was married and had a bond daughter. And after a while then started university. Once again, you can go whichever age you, you, you can afford to. So I started around 25 to do my university degree there. And just when I was getting hired to become the assistant, they call us assistant masters, like an assistant principal for English at the high school. I came here.

Phillip: [00:28:10] And that you were around 35 then, right?

Carmen: [00:28:10] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:28:13]  Yeah. And talk about why you made the decision to come to the, the US with Canada first. Right?

Carmen: [00:28:19] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:28:20]  And your daughter was a big part of that decision.

Carmen: [00:28:22] Right? Oh yes. It got to a point in time in Guyana where food was not easy to come by, even though you worked. So we couldn't get flour to make bread. We even the rice that we got there, we, although we produced rice, it seems as if they were sending the best of the best. Everything was getting difficult.

I remember one day we had this thing called cassava yucca that they would make cassava cake with. We have a cassava bread too, but it's a flat disc dry when you dry the cassava and, and let it dry in the sun and you can eat that. But they also started to make this cake with it. And my daughter was about nine or eight or nine? She would not eat this thing. There was nothing else. They never gave them food at school like you do here. So I said, you know, you got to eat something. And I forced her to eat. I said, you know, sit and have something.  You cannot go to school like that. And as soon as she finished eating, I was going through the door, she vomited all through the house. And you could see the stuff that I forced her to eat back up Hope I'm not making a stomach upset.

And so that I didn't want to leave to go anywhere. 'cause I had a very, a fairly decent life. I would've, I know I would've moved up in ranks in either the school or the Ministry of Education or something, because we are not where you can go to school and say three years later you're gonna become whatever. You have to serve the time. Put in the, the basic things. A a a, you can become a, a headmaster or a principal by going to school and getting a principal's license. You had to work to get it and put through the time, go through the ranks of being an a, a, a teacher, a master, an assistant, or then, then like that. So I knew I was going up to, I was going to be up there, but that incident, I couldn't, I said, I gotta do better for my child.

I cannot stay in this country because why am I going to tell her that I can't? I'm working, but I can't afford to feed you because it's not there. So that was the reason why I left. I first went to Canada, I went there. I'm supposed to, I was at in contact still with the university here. I went there, I said, I'm going to go do some studies and maybe see where it'll go from there. But it, I don't know, I didn't really want to be there. So I found away and came to America, like a year, less than a year after.

Phillip: [00:31:31]  Okay. So not too long in Canada.

Carmen: [00:31:33] Right! Right.

Phillip: [00:31:34] And then how did you end up in Brooklyn?

Carmen: [00:31:37] I started off in Ohio. Like, I think I mentioned to you, my uncle lived there, didn't like there at all. And the people that were there, it was a thing where I came to America before you, so it doesn't matter what age you are, I can tell you how to live and what to do and that craziness. And I said, what is wrong with these people? I, they don't, they realize I'm an adult. And so I, I have an, I had a, but she's still there in, in Pennsylvania. She lived in, I called her up and said, listen, I gotta leave this place here. It's driving me crazy. One is like country, country, country. I look like I come right back from where I used to live at the beginning of life. And even when I left Ghana, I wasn't living in that kind of circumstances. I was not in the city working at a good job and so on.

And so I told her and she said, oh sure, come, come. But then when I came, the jobs were not easy to get. And of course I can't teach because I gotta go back to school, get license here, that would take some time. And she was saying, well, you know, just do what you gotta do, don't work. I said, no, I gotta a kid. My daughter was not with me. I have a kid at home, I can't sit. And she's with some family, I got a can't. And they have kids when I'm sending anything I can't send for my kid alone. Right.

So I decided to come to New York to, to see what would be the best way and what I can do and how I can get some a, a decent job. What, what my options were. And everybody was saying, oh, New York is a place to be. New York is a place to be. The only place in New York. I had anybody was in Brooklyn. My, my cousin lived here. And so I came and was able to stay with her for a little bit until I got my own little apartment and so on and so forth. And the rest is history.

Phillip: [00:33:44] And you eventually started teaching again, right?

Carmen: [00:33:46] Yeah. No Lord, that's another story.

Phillip: [00:33:51] You don't have to get all the way into it, but I was just, I mean, I think it's important what you said about how low teacher pay was when you first started.
 
Carmen: [00:33:56] Okay. Well, first I came, well of course, like I said, I had to get licensed. So there was no way I could teach before I got licensed. So I started working at a construction company in the Bronx. And they wasn't too bad, it was better than the teacher's salary. But for when I, when I finally was able to get the license, teacher's pay was $13,500 a year. I said, hell no.

Phillip: [00:34:28] Around what time of time was
 
Carmen: [00:34:30] It? This was 80 to 84. Around 84 and so on. And I said, no, Not there. So I kept on working where I was and then I heard that they were doing 18,000, but I still wasn't going. And it was a friend who started to teach, called me up one day. She said, what is going on with you? Why are you acting so foolish? She said, what you talking about? She said, you know, teaching is your life. Why would you give up that to go and work with a construction company? I said, I'm managing the office. He said, I don't care what you're managing, you know that you should get back into teaching. Come on, I'm setting you up for the exam because you have to take an exam even though you get thing, you have to take an exam.

And so I went to the exam, got that. Then the city decided, oh, because you were experienced before they would give you another license. So I ended up with two licenses. Right. And when did I start teaching? Oh, my first job. Because even though you get the license, it's temporary. It's a, what do they call it? Substitute license. A, a license for substitute teaching. Because you gotta now get the, the board and the Albany to give you a permanent. So I'm doing, I'm supposed to do substitute teaching.

And I was called one day and told that Canarsie High School had a placement because the teacher was going on maternity leave. I was quite excited because now I'm in, I am, you know, I didn't what I was supposed to do, rather reluctantly. But now since I'm in there and I got what I'm supposed to get, I'm excited to go start working. I don't know the place that well. So I called up the school, they gave me the number, the principal name, and I called up the school.

And that gave me my first taste of, once again, prejudice and racism. The guy said to me, who gave you this number? I said, the board of Ed, the Ministry of Education, not the Yes, the Board of Education. I'm mixing up our two. We, we have Ministry of education. Board of it. Gave me and told me there's a position. He said, there's no position here. Who are you? We don't need anybody here. And you know, I had to come to the conclusion that he heard my accent and he said he didn't want me there. And that was the same school. A couple years later, a black woman was sent there and they put up a noose. She was sent there as principal, put up a noose in her office. So, but you know, I figure that it was one of those things.

Phillip: [00:37:47] They had a history of that, right?

Carmen: [00:37:48] Yeah. So I decided, I said, oh yeah, I'm not going  even if you call me after, I don't wanna work with you. I didn't say that to him, but I said thank you. And went my way and decided I wasn't going to even go. And it took another few months. I was at the parent teachers meeting with my, the older daughter and I was talking with the principal and he said, oh, you are a teacher.

In fact, I don't know what what came up. And he said, you sound like you know more about this stuff than than the regular parents. I said, yeah, I'm a teacher. He said, oh, okay. I said, but I'm looking for a job. Do you have anything? He said, no, but I know someone who may have, and I was able to get a position not long after, with the junior high school. Mm.

Phillip: [00:38:39] Crown Heights right?

Carmen: [00:38:40] In Crown Heights at Park Place and Sterling. But Lord have mercy. I couldn't take, I, I mean I, I I, I worked there for, from ‘86 March, I think it was until ‘89. But I knew I wasn't going to stay. So when I got my permanent license and they asked me to stay there, I said, I'm sorry, thank you for the time. But the, the middle school is not for me. So I went to the high school.

Phillip: [00:39:15] The high school. Right? And that was Clarabarton.

Carmen: [00:39:17] Clarabarton High School. Yeah.

Phillip: [00:39:19] Okay. So now we're getting to around the time when you connected with St. Paul Church and with EBC. So just talk about how you got connected there.

Carmen: [00:39:27] Well back..

Phillip: [00:39:28] The nine one right?

Carmen: [00:39:29] Back, you know, God sent you everywhere for purpose because that school that I didn't stay at, I met this lady, she was a teacher. My initial, well, I shouldn't say, well, the first day I went to the school, everybody was telling me, you can't have this. You can't have this room, you can't go there. You can't, you can't look, look, you know, everybody had, they were so territorial and this, she's this short, walked up to me with this huge smile. I said, hi, I am Maxine, how are you? I know you're new here. I'm new too. And, and I, we became very good friends and she invited me to church one day.

And that was like in 91? No, or 90. And I went with them. She and her husband and husband, Mr. Nelda. And she had two kids. We went and that, I went there. I had been looking for, I was a Lutheran backing guy and a Lutheran member confirmed, but couldn't find a church, a Lutheran church in America. We didn't have email, Google to look. And so I kept going, whichever church, I went Catholic. I went to a river. Wherever there was a church I would go.

And when she invited me there, I remember just wanting to be there. I walked up that aisle today and got baptized in 91 and stayed there ever since. So I'm saying this to say that me going to that school, which was just a stop to where I was getting, meeting her, going to St. Paul made all of what is going on in my life now possible.

Phillip: [00:41:25] Wow. Okay. Yeah. So there, Reverend Youngblood was there at that time, right?

Carmen: [00:41:28] Reverend Youngblood was there.

Phillip: [00:41:30] And you mentioned Glennie Campbell

Carmen: [00:41:31] Glenn Champbell. Glennie Champbell She is the mother of the young man now who is the, oh, what do you call him? He runs the church. I don't remember his title, but he been there for a while. And she's dead now. She died last year. But she, like, she used to look at people in the congregation and say, okay, I want you to do this. Do that. Go here. Go there, go there.

So I used to go to EBC things. I don't even know where I was going and what I was going about, but I just went. And Youngblood too would, would say, okay, I want you to do, he was very bossy. Like my very friend, I say about one day she was supposed to introduce the visitors. I helped a woman with her speech. And I'm sitting there at, gone somewhere the night before, sitting there half a seat, took my shoes off and everything. I think he spotted me. You ever been to a church? You see how big it is?

Phillip: [00:42:33]Yeah.

Carmen: [00:42:34] And those days, thousands of people would show up. So I'm sitting there, shoes, off, eyes, clothes, half asleep. And he said, all I heard is, Ms. Daniels, you are going to do the welcome today. I look at him, I said, but pastor, I'm not supposed to is Maxine. He said, well, today's gonna be you. So I just went up there and I said, okay, you know, this is such a comfortable place to, because if you notice that I didn't even have to have shoes on.

I was got my, I'm telling you really by surprise. Wow. But those are some of the things that made it. So it was fun. And so, but through the church, I was able to know about the  Nehemiah, about the EBC. Like I said, EBC before I know what EBC was, I met Mike Keegan, whom I admire tremendously. 'cause every, every time I listened to him talk, I said, gosh, if everybody could be like this man, we would not have so many problems around, you know. So we, we started to work more and more. Then I joined the Homeless association, my Homeless association after I got the house. And..

Phillip: [00:43:53] Been pretty involved since.

Carmen: [00:43:54] Yeah!

Phillip: [00:43:55] They keep you busy, right? Right. Well how did you, how did you come into the decision to buy a  Nehemiah home? And where were you living right before, because you had some bad experiences as a renter. Right.

Carmen: [00:44:04] Listen, I gotta tell you why I got the bad experiences. We grew up where no matter if you rented the home, it was your home. It was your house. You walked to the family, only the family walked to the door, right. That particular door. But when I came, my aunt lived in an, my uncle lived, you know, while I lived in his own home, my aunt lived in an apartment. It was a beautiful place. Doorman, elevator, blah, blah. It was wonderful in Rosemont, on the outskirts of Philadelphia.

So when I landed in New York and I went to visit some people, pee urine, let me put it nicely in the elevators and in the hall. And I'm seeing all kinds of people walking through the door. I know it sounds terrible when I see all kinds of people, but every time you look into look like it's a different individual in a different walk alive. I'm saying I can't live in these buildings. I, I don't know how it'll be traumatizing. So I always rented a private house from a private landlord.

My very first apartment. Thank God for that man. He was the most beautiful soul. He had a four family, four, yes, a four family. And he, he rented me a one bedroom apartment. And it was wonderful. My daughter, I got a second daughter in, in the interim and she had asthma. Doctor said, maybe the apartment is too small. Get a bigger place, get a bigger place in Queens. It was worse because they had mice and oh my gosh, she was sick every day. So I had to move from there.

Came back to Brooklyn and I rented again privately. Those were people were stealing the electricity, the gas, the light, because they had people living in the basement and didn't want to pay what they were using. I was living on the first floor. That didn't work out. And when I had another nice place, I was okay on, on in, in Canarsie on East 86th Street. And from there I learned of Nehemiah, well, I was going to buy my own house, try to buy my own house. You want hear that story?

Phillip: [00:46:34] Sure!

Carmen: [00:46:35] No take, I was going to buy my own house. I was, I was looking, looking, I had saved not a huge sum of money, but enough from what the real estate people told us. I had enough to make a down payment on a home and so on. So I had real estate agents taking me around. I remember having to change one of them because she took me to one to the worst places imaginable. I said, why you bringing me here? Well, I think this is what you can afford. I said, okay. So I got rid of, or got somebody else.

I found a house on East 48th Street in Flatbush, east Flatbush, nice area and everything. And the house was 148,000. When was this? I guess around, Hmm. I got this house that I'm living in in 98. So I guess in the, like mid early nineties, somewhere around then. And I put in an offer, got the lawyer, everybody's on board with everything, excited and all. And then I got my, what do you call the, the, the contract. Hmm. And when did the lawyer sent me the stuff. I'm reading it and I'm sitting there and saying, no, I'm going to die. I can't do this. The $148,000 house would cost me 700,000 before I finished paying it off.

I said, what I, we are not accustomed to owing anybody. I tried my best not to owe anybody at one time. I had no credit because I would not owe anybody. And the credit card people said, you don't have credit. I said, but I pay my bills. I pay my, my rent, my rent. I pay my gas, I pay my license. That credit enough for you? I don't owe anybody. They said, no, you have to have a, a card issue. So I had to do that. But when I saw that $700,000, I could not sleep. I could not sleep that night. I think I sat up all night and I'm going back to the number and they were like, are they crazy? I'm gonna go nuts. I'm going, I would die before I'm done with this.

And so the next morning I called him, convinced that he had made a mistake. And I didn't ask a question. I said, sir, you made a mistake on this contract. He said, what do you mean? I said, where on earth I, we be paying $700,000 for this house. And he said, okay, look at it is famous. If you are paying gimme some summer money per month for rent for the next 30 years at compound interest, what would that be? Well, the words that he used that made me sit up and take notice were compound interest.

Because I say somewhere along the line, these people are going to give me a mortgage that is not a fixed anything. It's going to change compound. You add on to whatever they're gonna kill me. And I told them, I said, listen, I can't do this. Said, what you mean you can't do that? I did the contract. I said, I can't do it. I will not live to pay this money off because stress alone would kill me from knowing I owe somebody this much. He was upset. And I don't, I don't remember all the details of what happened between us, but I know that I just got out of buying that.

And then our church called, told us, they announced one day that they were going to get applications because they had forced dibs, all the churches in EBC on these applications for these homes. And I said, I'm gonna apply for one of those. Oh lord, my family and friends said, what? East New York, you are gonna be dead. You are going. And they started to carry on. But I didn't have any other option because I couldn't see myself taking a mortgage where I would end up up paying all of that for 148,000. And so I put in my application and I don't, it took about three years before they called.

In the meantime, I had to do a lot of praying because you're hearing all these horror stories about what they do and how they bury people in East New York. And we are not gonna come and visit you and we are not gonna see you because you might be dead. We might move into the place and the next thing we know that you're not alive. And so a lot of praying. But I am so glad I took that in  Nehemiah house because I had enough money not only to give them the down payment they want, but to give extra.

And so the, the city had given us at the time, the, the houses were being sold for $90,000, three-bedroom. You, you saw the place you've seen in Nehemiah houses and the basement was unfinished. You do whatever you want with it, go on with it. And I said, you know what, I'm going to do this. And what made me even want to do it more is that I saw the first phases of the Nehemiah didn't like them. 'cause that kit, the kitchen is the, on the front of the house. The living room is in the back. And I said, who thought that idea up? And the people said they ask for that because they wanted their children to be able to play and for them to look at them, they didn't want 'em in the front. Some craziness.

Phillip: [00:52:52]  It was an odd layout. Yeah.

Carmen: [00:52:53] Yes. And I didn't like it. So I was concerned that it was going to be the same model. But when they showed us what it was, I said, oh, I can live with this. You come in the front door like normal people. And so I, I was even more excited and in May of ‘98, I got my key and my little home for myself and no burden because I say, okay, I can live with this, my mortgage, because I paid some extra at the beginning, my mortgage was what, five something. It was less than my, my what I was paying for rent.

Phillip: [00:53:33] Wow!

Carmen: [00:53:34] Yes. And so it was like, oh, I can pay two mortgages. I can pay extra mortgage. I, you know, and before, I don't remember what year, but one day I got a note from the bank, said, oh, you have completed the payment of your home. It's all yours, free and clear. And that same house that, well the city had taken off 20, they were so happy to have us come live in this forsaken place that they had taken off 20,000.

The only way you're gonna pay that back is if you sell it. So they had that stipulation there and that I was finished paying. So it's free and clear. And now that's 70, no, let's say $70,000 or it's now may will be 25 years. It's now 600 and some thousand. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah.

Phillip: [00:54:33] So would you say that's the biggest impact that buying the home had for you? The financial impact? Or how else did your life change?

Carmen: [00:54:40] I told you it would not been talking to me if I didn't buy any of my house. If I had gone the traditional way, stress would've killed me. I would've not been here. Seriously, because just thinking of that amount of money, you know, cultures differ. There's some places that, that is fine. In mine, that's a no-no. And that alone, just the thought of it, even thinking about it now, I am so, so glad for Nehemiah.

And that is why, you know, sometimes they ask me to share with people who are thinking of buying from other, or building from other states. I don't mind telling them that I did not been for Nehemiah and the EBC. I don't know where I'd been today. I don't know.

Phillip: [00:55:38] And what about for your daughters? How did it change their lives? Were they, they were living with you when you moved in?

Carmen: [00:55:43] One of them.

Phillip: [00:55:43] One was okay.

Carmen: [00:55:44] Yeah, she was a little concerned the younger one because she thought, people used to tell us. She used to go very brilliant kid. So she used to go to one of the, you know, of Brooklyn Technical High School, is it third in the Ranking Nation. So she used to go to that school. And so some of the people to say, oh, you live in the ghetto. I said, you know, when people tell you nonsense like that, some of them live in apartment buildings, you know, you should be able to either not say anything or let it bother you or tell 'em, okay, I'll living in the ghetto in my own home.

You live in an apartment somewhere else sometimes in, in, in NYCHA housing. So what's a big difference? Isn't that where you live? It's not where you live. Now she is. Oh, she tell me. No, she know. I'm sorry I didn't get one of these, but she makes too much money, so she can't get one. She makes too much.

Phillip: [00:56:50]  And this is the daughter that's in Long Island now.

Carmen: [00:56:52]: Yeah

Phillip: [00:56:53] Okay, Gotcha. Gotcha! Well talk a little bit about, just as we wrap up here, what it's been like to be involved in the Homeowners association and on the board.

Carmen: [00:57:00] Yeah.

Phillip: [00:57:01] And what kind of issues that you work on?

Carmen: [00:57:03] Well, I started with the Homeowners association because when I came to live in East New York as an educator, I, you know, you're always interested in the education, but what kind of systems they have in place and so on the level. And I found out that my district is the lowest in the entire Brooklyn District 19. I said, what? I can't be living in this area and not do something. So I said, when I joined the association, I said, I'm coming in for education, nothing else. But somehow that never gets put on the front burner. It never gets put on the front burner. I notice EBC is starting to look into that now, and I'm glad. So whenever we have a committee, I join that.

So, but that was the first and most important reason for me for joining because I, as, as a parent, I went to every, as many, most of the PTA meetings that I, my children had. And even as a teacher, I used to ask my, my fellow teachers, I said, this thing says PTA, parent Teachers Association. How come none of you go to the PTA? I used to be there and be with the parents because I felt it was important for, to be part of. You can say, well, okay, I'm a teacher and when the PTA I'm going home, it would be on this. I was on the school leadership team and so on.

So when I joined, we started to work on different things. Like I said, the education piece is not where I would like it to be and I'm still looking for ways in which I can get involved in that. But with the church and EBC, we are getting better. But some of the things we did, we are doing for the homeowners, like the taxes for instance, is the committee that I'm on where we found out that the taxes, is it Robbie, Robbie Block? You know, Robbie, I was able to invite him to, he came to a women's association and presented about the taxes and things that are going on in, in, in, in and around Brooklyn and other states, especially for people of color. And I decided that that was something I'd like to work on.

So that's one of my things where we are looking into, we can get the city not to make our taxes so onerous. It's too much. We pay as much as the people who live in Parksville who got million-dollar homes. We pay the same tax. The Blasio, our last mayor, when we look at, you can go on ACRIS or wherever, see the taxes they pay. Just imagine our, let's say 500, $600,000 home. At the time his was a million. And he paid sometimes, in some cases, sometimes it used to be less than some people, right? A lot of people have had to give up their homes, sell and go away because they can't afford to pay. And some people got their homes, you know, low income, they can't afford to pay the tax. So that's one thing that I'm working on.

And what was it? What was the next one? Whatever, whatever I, I gotta do. I represent the, the homeowners for EBC. I want the people that go to the EBC meetings and bring back to them what EBC is doing because we gotta work together. For instance, tomorrow I'm going to the, we, we, we have a terrible situation with traffic in, in the area and people getting killed, right. Opposite me. SUV, run up the people's steps. You see when you come into my street. The house at the corner on the opposite side and s SUV V ran right up into the house, like if it was going to visit and we've been asking for a traffic sign there, a traffic light there. So tomorrow is one of the days that we are going to work with that. So those are two of the main things that I do. And anything else that you get asked to do,

Phillip: [01:01:39] Right? So where do you get that mentality of like wanting to be involved in the PTA or in the homeowners association? Like why is it important to you to be involved in those things?

Carmen: [01:01:48] If you live in a community and, and you want to sit back and not be involved and say, okay, I got my own house. Like a man said one night at one a meeting, listen, y'all don't bother me. I got my house. I worked hard to get it and I'm not doing anything. That's not the mentality.

To have community is where people get together and do for the betterment of not only the community we live in, but the city at large. When you do the community, then you, you help even the country because then people can look at what you do and pattern after. And so I guess like all this come from my, my, my two grand, my two grandparents, the grandmother and grand great-grandmother because that was what they were like, that's what they were like. And so some of this..

Phillip: [01:02:44]  Ties back to them.

Carmen: [01:02:45] Yeah.

Phillip: [01:02:46] They were community-oriented.

Carmen: [01:02:48] Yeah.

Phillip: [01:02:48] And saw how like your local community is a building block for something like.

Carmen: [01:02:52] For something larger. Yeah.

Phillip: [01:02:54] Right, right. Well only bother you with one more question. This is the last thing. What would you say to someone who's thinking about purchasing a Nehemiah home today?

Carmen: [01:03:03] Jump at the chance. Jump at the chance. You cannot go wrong. It is going to help you with your finances you are going to own without stress. It is one of the best things that could have ever happened in my life. And I'm saying it's going to be the same for you.

And what you gotta do is put on blinders because some, you, you might hear stories about how don't go live in the area where they're building because like for instance, where they're gonna build, if, if they get the increase more where the facility used to be, you might hear some naysayers saying, you know, don't go there. It is not a good place to be. Don't, don't, don't, don't listen, don't listen.

And you are going to build wealth for you, your family. And in, in a way that is not going to be so hard because a lot of people have lost homes, traditional homes because they just couldn't keep up either with the mortgage or they let these unscrupulous lenders get involved and, and, and give them that extra. But for the, the, the, what you call the thing, the interest rates in such a way that it changes, there's a term for it very, is very not variable, is the interest rate is not fixed. So every year you look and you see that your, your mortgage is gone up or sometimes people tell you refinance because you couldn't afford a doing. You get into more trouble. Jump at the  Nehemiah home. It's one of the best investments that you can make in your life.

Phillip: [01:04:50] Great spokesperson. So did we miss anything, about you?

Carmen: [01:04:54] No. No.

Phillip: [01:04:55] At the  Nehemiah homes?

Carmen: [01:04:56] No, no!

Phillip: [01:04:57] Don't think so.

Carmen: [01:04:57] You think I missed anything? You wanna ask me? Any question?

Teddy: [01:05:00] Can I ask one? Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned you were planning to move into Neomaya, you know, the family members who said, oh, don't go there. Horror stories. How did you find actually living there? Was it, was it not like how people said or how was the experience?

Carmen: [01:05:19] Well, like I said, the experience was great. I, when we went to do our signing of our papers, I remember the church, our church said to us, do not bring, you don't need a lawyer. We have done everything for you. So that set the scene for things. And I sat next to a couple, they brought their lawyer, but I sat next to 'em. We started to talk, and I said to the, to them, I said, what, what's your number in your house? And they said, oh, 393. I said, what? You are my neighbor. And we have been friends since then.

So the community, we, we have developed community. We call for each other. We had a vibrant block association at one time, but a few of the presidents passed away. And like, it kind of put a damper on things because a, a lot of older people are able to, who couldn't have owned or might have had, had to go and live with their children, were able to purchase their own home. So a few of them died and things got put on the backboard as far as I was concerned. But the Homeless Association is filling that gap. And if you gotta go out and, you know, talk to people, encourage them to join and do things, we do that. You know. So being there has been a, a, to me, a privilege, because otherwise I would not have had a house, I don't think. Or I would've had one with so much pro, so many problems and personal aggravation and stress. I don't think I would've been, I, I, I really mean, I would don't think I would've been talking to you. Yeah. It's a wonderful living here. 20, I'm there. 20, 20. It'll be 25 years.

Phillip: [01:07:18] Wow! Yeah.

Carmen: [01:07:19] This month.

Teddy: [01:07:19] Wow.

Carmen: [01:07:20] 25 years.

Phillip: [01:07:21] That's awesome. That's amazing.

Carmen: [01:07:23] We share food with neighbors. We, you know, we've got that kind of relationship. Not everybody, of course, but to our neighbors. We have grown together. We look out for each other. Like, I was in Long Island the other day, I do Mary Kay. Right. And they deliver some boxes to me. Before I got back. I didn't explain anything. So soon, my neighbor across the street, she called me, said, look, some stuff is here. You're gonna be coming back soon. I said, no, not till tomorrow. She came over, picked them up every every box. And she even called me and said, I'm gonna have to charge you because these boxes, I didn't expect them to be so heavy. But she took them over to her place. And when I got back, she said, call me and get back.

So living in a, in a another, like maybe an apartment building. I know, like my niece lives in an apartment building, doesn't have an elevator. I think it's three floors. By the time they leave, they buy water, leave it down at the door to come back. It, the, the big cases of water, it is gone. We don't have that very, very rarely people, and if people come there and steal anything, they don't live in the area. They don't live there. It's been a joy.

I'm not, I don't want you to think that everything has been hunky-dory and nothing happened because my neighbor, the very end before the very first night, she moved in, somebody pushed their hand through the mail slot and opened their door and did whatever, but they now seal that shot as they have the end building the end house. And it's next to the NYCHA building there. So maybe they were looking and saw whatever they saw, but I've never had a problem. And one day I didn't realize, you know, sometimes I go to my car, we have a driveway, we don't have a garage. And sometimes I go to my car, turn it on, and then go back to get something to at the house. I wanted a little house unlocked all day. I said, when I got back, I said, oh, no. And nobody went and did anything there.

Teddy: [01:09:49] Huh?

Carmen: [01:09:49] No one. My door was both. I have the storm door and the both doors were unlocked. Another night my daughter came in, she was still living with me and had her car. Not, that was a day, daytime, she forgot. Took the baby out. She got a, a child, took the baby out, forgot to lock the door. And that door sat open for days, not for days, for hours. And I went outside. I said, wait, you didn't close your door. And nobody took anything. Some people have been unfortunate because they've had, like, one time I think somebody broke a window and stole something. So I don't know if it was a, a radio they wanted or some piece of equipment in the car. But we've had that, we've had several accidents happen and so on. But in general it is been good.

Teddy: [01:10:46] Yeah.

Carmen: [01:10:48] It's been more than good. Very good. And to know I don't have a mortgage to pay even better. Right. And it is quite a few years now. Quite a few years. Yeah.

Phillip: [01:11:00] That's tough to beat. Right, right.

Carmen: [01:11:02] Yeah.

Phillip: [01:11:03] Well, unless we miss anything, I think we're good to wrap it up for today at least. All right. I know there's always more to tell.

Carmen: [01:11:11] You. Sure? I'm looking at what else is there to tell.

Phillip: [01:11:15] No, I think we, I think we covered our base pretty well. So we'll just leave a thirty second pause on the end here, and then we'll be all done.

Carmen: [01:11:23] Okay.