Tom Angotti

Gabriela: Okay. We are here at 2 West 13th Street at The New School. It is October 5th, 2022, and it is about 10 o'clock. And I'm here with Tom Tom. So thank you, Tom, for spending this time with me to talk about this important—

Tom: Thanks for inviting me.

Gabriela: And, yeah. So, I'm gonna start with a few personal questions. Tom, where and when were you born and where is your family from?

Tom: Mm-hmm. I was born in Brooklyn, New York in a hospital in Sunset Park but my parents lived in Bensonhurst. Although, they did spend some time before that in Dyker Heights.

So, I spent the first seven years of my life in Brooklyn before we moved to the suburbs. My family [clears throat] came originally from Italy—from Southern Italy—from Sicily and Calabria.

Gabriela: Mm-hmm.

Tom: So that's my background.

Gabriela: So, tell me a little bit about your childhood. Uh, describe your life in the city and then moving. How was that experience?

Tom: Well, growing up in Brooklyn was very impactful. It was a different New York City. This was also during the Second World War. So, many of the resources in the nation were directed toward the war effort. Brooklyn was not what it is today.

It was much quieter, on the street where we lived there were practically no cars.

Gabriela: Mm-hmm.

Tom: Um, teenagers used to play stickball in the street. We used to run around on the sidewalks and in the courtyard. In the back of the apartment building, in the courtyard, we used to play handball against the building walls. But now you can't do that because the courtyard is filled with parked cars. So, it was a different Brooklyn.

Tom: We were a block away from an Italian shopping district. There were stores where people only spoke Italian.

Gabriela: Yep

Tom: And it was a relatively quiet neighborhood.

Gabriela: Yeah. And then you moved to New Jersey?

Tom: We moved to New Jersey. I lived in the suburbs. I went to three different high schools in New Jersey, in California, and in Connecticut. Uh, after that I went to college in Indiana—four years. After that, I lived in the Southern US. I worked in the Civil Rights campaign. I was at Stillman College, which was —and still is—an historically black college. And after that, I spent two years in the Peace Corps in Peru. I came back to the US and worked for a few years. Then went to get my Ph.D. at Rutgers University in New Jersey in urban planning.

Do you want me to go into all of this detail? [laughs]

Gabriela: [laughs] No, No, No. I mean, this is great. I mean, it's been quite a journey and well you have inspired multiple generations of community planners and activists in this city and beyond. So, yeah. So, tell me about your work, you know, your professional and academic work. So, you finished school and—

Tom: —So, I finished school and urban planning. At that time it was a field that was open to people who were engaged in issues of racial justice. It was at the height of the Civil Rights Movement. And I went to work as the Chief Urban Planner in the state of Massachusetts—or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts—where we were doing [0:05:00] planning for municipalities outside of Boston, doing master plans that included an affordable housing plan, breaking down some of the zoning barriers in the suburbs. That was followed by, I moved to Italy and I was in Italy for two years. I did a number of different things, including writing my first book, Housing in Italy. I worked as a planner and as a journalist, and did many things, but then came back to the US after a couple of years and I had a number of Fulbright awards, a job teaching at Hunter College, and then Columbia University where I taught urban planning.

And,after Columbia, I moved to California, taught briefly at UC Berkeley, but mostly did other work. I got involved in political activism and was there for five years. Returned to New York, got a job with the City of New York as a chief planner in the housing agency, and then as a chief planner in the Brooklyn Office of City Planning. And I was there for six years before teaching at Pratt Institute in planning and chairing the planning program there for six years.

And one of the attractions of that was—what I had always done even when I worked with the city—which was I worked with communities, with neighborhoods. Not always a popular thing among the leadership of the city planning department, who believed they only worked for the mayor. So I spent six very active years working with the city planning department. I did one of the first community plans to be officially approved—a 197-A Plan—in Red Hook. I was the chief planner involved in that. I did many other things.

But from then I pretty much lived in Brooklyn, until today with some brief absences: a year in Italy, six months of which was at the American Academy of Rome, ‘cause I won the Rome Prize. And six months I was teaching in the Cornell University program in Rome. So, I also received a number of Fulbright awards (The US Fulbright Program) in different parts of the world. But my last 15 years of teaching was at Hunter College, City University of New York.

And I founded the Hunter College Center for Community Planning and Development, which brought me and some students into doing work with community organizations, preparing reports and plans, and advising, and participating in many community struggles, many community efforts to gain control over their territory.

Gabriela: Yeah. No, this has been like an amazing journey with all these experiences in different cities and places and institutions, and you have been always kind of like working, you know, like with communities, and students, and organizers, activists, and related somehow with these public agencies or institutions. What has been your drive, you know, to be part of all these community efforts?

Tom: Yeah. Well, it sort of grew slowly over the years as I got involved in different, community efforts. Um, it came also out of the activism of the Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement, where community was always incredibly important in building political movements. Um, it's perhaps a little different than it is now because so much is done in cyberspace, but so much of the actual life and activity of communities is place-based. It's based in spaces where people live and work, and that's still critically important in organizing.

Um, and so I really feel that deeply. And if you look at the results, I think they prove that successful community activity and organizing is based on having a dynamic community organizing process, and people stepping forward and dedicating so much of their time and effort to improving the lives of their communities, stopping mega projects from destroying their communities.

Gabriela: Yeah. Yeah, Right. And talking about a place and community, how are you connected to the Lower East Side or the East Village?

Tom: Well, when I moved back to New York and was teaching at Columbia in the [late] 1970s, I got involved with a group of activists and scholars who were doing work on housing issues. One of them was Fran Goldin and I walked on many picket lines with Fran, protesting the city's housing policies. Fran was the dynamite behind the organization of the Cooper Square Committee— the organization of Cooper Square residents against the urban renewal program that was proposed by Robert Moses and supported by City Hall.

But then I think the turning point was when I was writing my book, New York for Sale. That book was about the broad New York City story, but it was also about the story of communities organizing and doing their own plans. Cooper Square was interesting because as I began to burrow into the history—and I worked with the Municipal Arts Society, actually— the Municipal Arts Society Planning Center had a program, or had a group, that was promoting community-based planning and the staff did an excellent job of doing a history collecting all of the community-based plans.

Cooper Square stood out because it was the first major community plan that first was an alternative to the city's master planning—the city's urban renewal plan—and it was largely successful. So I arranged to interview Fran Goldin formally for the book. And portions of that interview are in the chapter that I wrote, which is mostly about Cooper Square. And Fran Goldin was an amazing organizer, so she organized me.

She said, “I want you to be one of these committees in Cooper Square.” And I said, “Yeah, but you know, I live in Brooklyn.” I had [crosstalk]—

Gabriela: — [crosstalk] What was this year? What—

Tom: Actually it was 2007. My book came out in 2008. So, as of 2007, I'm not as sure of the exact details, but I think first I was on an MHA [Mutual Housing Association] committee and then I was asked to join the CLT board—Fran told me I had to be on the Cooper Square CLT [Community Land Trust] board. She was a great organizer because it was so hard to say “no” to her [laughs].

Gabriela: Mm-hmm. I can imagine.

Tom: And you trusted...I trusted her implicitly because of the great work that she had done in organizing. Of course, it was not only Fran. Fran was accompanied by a whole host of fierce organizers who were able to beat Robert Moses.

Gabriela: mm-hmm.

Tom: So, my records show, I think 2007 is when I joined the board of the CLT.

Gabriela: Yeah. And well considering like all this history —because you were before kind of like organizing, and then more like a study, and then becoming part of the MHA, and later on the CLT board—what were your first feelings or impressions when you were part of this board? So, how do you feel connected to their struggles and organized efforts, having this....also.. a very rich background, like working in different places with different communities?

Tom: Well, those early years of being on the board monthly meetings were very businesslike. We would review budgets. The executive director of the MHA, Val Orselli, would present the budget. We would ask questions about the budget, discuss it. From time to time, there are other issues that were brought up, but by and large the CLT met monthly and didn't really do an awful lot in between.

It was composed and—you know, its bylaws require—that one-third of the members be shareholders in the MHA co-op. And the others were mostly from the Lower East Side. I think I was the only one that came from outside. I took the subway from Brooklyn each time for the meetings of the CLT. So I wasn't involved a lot in the day-to-day of the MHA. I had actually never been on the board of the MHA or been to their meetings. So it was a very, you know, very stable kind of existence in the early years.

Gabriela: Yeah. So you were not part of the MHA board at that time?

Tom: No.

Gabriela: No. And then, at a certain point, were you also like a board member of the MHA... or?

Tom: At a certain point—and I honestly don't remember when that was—but at a certain point I was appointed, by the CLT, to the board of the MHA.

Gabriela: Oh, okay. Okay.

Tom: And that is when I first became aware of some of the frictions within the MHA—among the shareholders—and some of the history that I did not know because I hadn't been there.

Gabriela: And during all this time, I imagine that there were different events or moments, you know, where, I don't know, like turning points or special moments. So do you remember any of those moments, or do you have like an anecdote that made you feel proud, you know, being part of the Cooper Square CLT or MHA board or community? Um, so tell me, I mean, if that is the case—

Tom: Well, I've always felt proud of being associated with Cooper Square. The Cooper Square community is broader, of course, than either the [Community] Land Trust or the MHA board members. It's also under the large umbrella of the Cooper Square Committee which is the original coalition that was engaged in organizing—and it's still engaged in community organizing, housing rights, fights against slumlords, for protecting the tenant regulations and so forth. So, I've always been proud of that.

I'm not exactly sure when I became aware of the internal struggles, but certainly, when I was on the board of the MHA, it became real. And at one point there was a process of—uh I'm looking for the right word. It was called facilitation—no, a mediation— but there was a…

Well, let me back up a second. At one point, I became aware of dissatisfaction with Val Orselli as the executive director. I have great respect for the work that he had done along with the other organizers. Val and I had been to conferences together and we worked together for many years.

But then, when I was on the MHA board the conflicts between Val and some shareholders became very clear. There were complaints about his leadership and there were internal fights within the staff of the MHA. I did not know a lot about the details of these things. A large part of that has to do with the fact that I lived in Brooklyn [laughs]. I didn't live in the neighborhood. I wasn't in the gossip circles. I wasn't in the constant chatter. So, Val was pushed to retire.

Apparently, he didn’t go willingly, but he did retire, and I was part of the search committee to search for a replacement. And that went on for quite some time, during which Val continued to direct the organization, and during which I became a little more aware of the internal fights within MHA. I served on the search committee and we found a potential candidate. We supported that candidate unanimously and, to his credit, Val did a background search on that candidate. I had no knowledge that he was doing this, and I'm glad he did it because he discovered that candidate was not who he said he was.

Gabriela: Okay.

Tom: And we withdrew the offer and the search went on and it became even more and more difficult, the tensions between Val and shareholders continued to grow. I began to play more of an active role in the background—and again, I wasn't living in the community— in the background there was all this chatter going on, blaming the CLT and Val for all the problems of the MHA.

And the CLT sort of got drawn in, even though most people didn't quite know or understand what the CLT was doing. The CLT had no budget. It [the CLT] was not an official 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation. So, raising money was not even thought of. The CLT had no budget, had no funds, and that was done purposely, I think, from the beginning, because those who founded the whole constellation [of organizations] saw the CLT as being integrated and thoroughly intertwined with the MHA.

And there seemed to be no need for a staff for the CLT. Now, on hindsight, this was nearsightedness. It was unfortunate because without a budget, without the ability to function independently, the CLT would always be sitting in the back room reviewing the budget. Anyway, all of these things were going on. Until we hired a new MHA executive director: Dave Powell.

He was hired with the support of a slim majority. Later on, gossip got around that somehow I controlled Dave Powell because he was my former student at Hunter College. He got his planning degree there, which actually I see as evidence that I knew who this person was.Dave Powell had a long experience in non-profit housing management with the Fifth Avenue Committee in Brooklyn. He was an organizer. I had worked with him as an organizer on campaigns that had nothing to do with Cooper Square, had nothing to do with Hunter College or his studies there, or my teaching there.

I knew him before that and so I had confidence that he could do the job, because of his skills in dealing with people and his ability to work cooperatively.

So, then there was a lot of continuing antagonism within the MHA. And others had put together—Harriet Cohen and a couple of other people put together—a proposal to get help from a non-profit mediator or facilitator, let me say.

Gabriela: Okay.

Tom: It wasn't mediation, it was facilitation. And they developed a facilitation process, which included meetings incorporating CLT and MHA folks. Um, and it was designed in order to get people to talk to each other. Uh, I thought this was a good thing because the CLT board had not been interacting a lot. The board members who actually lived in the neighborhood were able to do more interacting—but people like myself—this was an opportunity to sit down and talk with others.

Well, that facilitation process went on for almost two years.

Gabriela: Wow.

Tom: And it demonstrated [that there was] good faith on the part of those who led the process, but it became very clear after a certain point that it was more about a power struggle going on. A few individuals sort of made it impossible to move to the next stage of reconciliation and that led to open conflict that produced a showdown.

Gabriela: mm-hmm.

Tom: When a faction—a minority faction— of the MHA resurrected an old organization that was still on the books but never had functioned [independently], when the MHA had become an official co-op—and this was called MHA I—it was still on the books, it was still technically the management company that was contracted by the co-op, which is MHA II.

Tom: So, it all came to a head when a group of the shareholders who reconstituted themselves as an MHA I board—this is all very complicated, of course—

Gabriela: mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tom: The MHA1 board had continued to meet, but it was mostly on paper. It was no different than the MHA II board and decisions were made, and those decisions included CLT board members.

Gabriela: mm-hmm.

Tom: And the CLT didn't even exist at the time of the MHA I [creation]. There had been an agreement that the two would essentially become one, MHA I and MHA II. And so one day we got a surprise announcement that the MHA I was going to be meeting.

So the CLT representatives showed up and the meeting was called to order—I won't name names here—[laughs]. But the meeting was called to order and a proposal was introduced to essentially reconstitute the MHA I board. We were told—the CLT board members who were there, including myself— were told that we could not vote because we were not the incorporated members of the MHA I. Well, this was a legal trick but it was at the service of a power play. It was a power play to get rid of the CLT.

Now, we could have a long discussion about what the motivations were. I can't open the brains [laughs] of mostly the two people who led that. But, it was clearly a hostile act and it really ended any potential for reconciliation of the parties. The tensions continued. Uh, the CLT people, including myself, continued to be members of the MHA board. We would go to meetings. The meetings were very unproductive. They were often disrupted by that faction [crosstalk]—

Gabriela: —[crosstalk] These meetings were MHA I or? [crosstalk]—

Tom: MHA II [crosstalk]–

Gabriela: —Ah, MHA II. Okay.

Tom: MHA II meetings. And, um, there were a number of hostile acts.

We brought a new appointee onto the board, Monxo Lopez, who was—I think—seen by that faction as hostile. He's a Puerto Rican activist, a political activist. He understands the land trust. He's one of the founders of a land trust in the South Bronx. He's smart [laugh] and sharp. So we introduced him and presented him.

And tactically, I guess some of these folks were caught off balance, and they praised him, and gave him a wonderful welcome. Well, it didn't take long for them to send out a missive, criticizing him for being disruptive, which he never was. And that was just more evidence that we were dealing with a faction that was willing to throw away all of the good will that began to take root, and that there was something else behind this. To this day, we don't know what the strategic game plan is. And maybe there is none. I don't know.

But if you look back at the history of co-ops, whether they're for-profit or non-profit, bitter fights among shareholders are a part of the history, and they continue.

So we have to look at it from a more –maybe ‘cause I'm in Brooklyn– I can look at it from a more, uh, in a more detached way. Even though it affected all of us emotionally, and it disrupted our lives, it disrupted the work of the CLT. There's one more story that I, I think–

Gabriela: Yeah. But I, I just want to say something because it seemed that this was like an important moment because of the CLT.

Tom: Yeah.

Gabriela: Things didn't turn in a direction that would had been like, uh, very negative for the MHA, no? So…

Tom: Yes, this faction was unable to take over the MHA [II]. And we can see in hindsight, clearly that the CLT played a strategic role in this. And, you know, some shareholders I think, felt the same. Same thing. Even though we didn't have a huge budget –we didn't have any budget– We didn't have, well, let me backtrack a minute– [Pause] after Val Orselli resigned from the MHA [II], Dave Powell took over as director. The CLT hired Val, because we got a city council grant–

No. We got a grant from the Enterprise Foundation, to do a couple of things. One was to support the transfer of two buildings into the CLT. Two buildings that had been part of the Lower East Side Mutual Housing Association. But they were facing foreclosure because of debts that weren't cleared. Property taxes that weren't cleared over the years. It was apparently an oversight, a big oversight. So the CLT was asked—H P D [Department of Housing Preservation and Development] actually supported the transfer to the CLT.

And, we said yes, despite the fact that, of course, we didn't have a staff and anything but Enterprise [Foundation Grant]. The proposal was written, by the way, by Val and Dave Powell, and myself. Although the two of them did the major lifting, we got this grant, and we were able to hire Val. And despite the bad blood that had been left with the MHA shareholders —some of them— that actually only aggravated things. Because it was interpreted as validation of his service with the MHA and everything he had done.

Including something we never as a CLT had discussed or did anything about, which was a scandal that he became part of involving staff members of the MHA. I don't need to go into great detail here. But, some of the people out of bad faith, I think, but also out of suspicion or dislike of Val said, considered that the relationship with Val was different.

That Val was running the CLT—Val wasn't running the CLT. He was the employee of the CLT.

Gabriela: At this time, who was leading the CLT board?

Tom: I believe I was on the executive committee, Harriet Cohen, Charlie Wertheimer, and maybe there was one other person, a shareholder. But it's significant that Harriet and Charlie were both old-timers who had been there from the start. We were aware of the problems that had generated the distaste with Val, but we made a very practical decision to hire him.

He was available, he knew the territory. He was competent, and he knew the history. So, hiring him made sense. In hindsight, we could have done something different. We could have hired somebody different.

Gabriela: And how was all this resolved? Like, it seemed that it was a period of…

Tom: It was the period of, um, mediation, you know.

Gabriela: Facilitation.

Tom: Facilitation that was going on. Uh, and, I was hoping that this could help move along the facilitation, but it actually got worse.

Because it was bad faith on the part of a few individuals who were just ready to pick at anything. And the culmination came when, at the end of the facilitation process, we were to sit down and talk about mediation. Mediation means. Okay, it's not just feeling good with one another and being able to talk to each other. What are we going to do? What are our differences? How do we resolve them? So, a group of us sit down to start a mediation process, and one person–I won't name names—but one person who was the chair of the MHA board, blew it up and just said, “We're not gonna go. We're not gonna talk.”

That was [clear] evidence that, um, they didn't want to talk. So, to me, it sounded like war. It sounded like a call to frontal conflict, which in fact, it was [laugh]. It was followed by, um, very sharp confrontations, verbal confrontations. And that lasted for, I don't know how long, it seems like years, but it's probably just one or two years. It was punctuated by a lawsuit that we took them to court.

We took the MHA I board to court for inappropriately removing the CLT members from MHA I. The lawsuit did stop things and did introduce a different dynamic. Um, it did move more MHA shareholders into a firmer agreement with the CLT. And even though the court after a year —I think it took a year—they threw out the lawsuit, but it had its effect. Its effect was to stop them and leave space for organizing.

And basically to recover the MHA [II]. And I'm proud to say the CLT played a positive role in that. Um, our individual appointees, but the whole board was behind this because what was at stake was the whole project. Who knows what the motivation [of the MHA faction] was, but it's almost irrelevant because they were operating irresponsibly. And they, you know, they would've made things even worse if they kept saying, “We're gonna go to HPD,” [laughs]

But HPD understood immediately what was [laughs], what was going on, and they knew who we were. And, I think they eventually had to—they quit [trying with HPD].

Gabriela: Yeah. So, well, I was going to ask you like, what was one of the most important accomplishments of Cooper Square CLT? It seems that this is, uh, got like a mayor event, you know. So, how all these accomplishments and events benefited the lives of all of those connected to Cooper Square, or the MHA. So, I imagine that not everyone knew what was happening or what was at stake.

Tom: Yeah. I think the benefit was, it led to the stabilization of the organization. The organization was able to bring in new leadership, which was needed. There were people who had been on the board from the start. I don't think it was a coincidence that some of those people were the ringleaders of this attempted coup. They, you know, it's a little hard to analyze what was going on in their heads, but I would imagine when they saw formidable opposition, they got thrown off base.

I think when they, when Val was executive director, they couldn't even speak his language, you know, [for example when it came to the] budget. They didn't understand the budget.

Gabriela: And what about the change? So after this, you mentioned that there were new board members.

Tom: Yeah, there were new board members, younger people. One person who became a resident in the MHA after his building burned down, just down the block, and the MHA offered emergency housing which became his permanent residence. And he became a very strong ally.

But also, you know, I think there were a lot of conversations that went on, with some of the shareholders who were straddling the fence.

Gabriela: What is your perception about this last period now? Things changed. So, there were some conflicts, difficult times, but how do you see Cooper Square MHA and its relationship with the Cooper Square CLT?

Tom: Well, I think the MHA and11 CLT relationship is definitely much better.

There's also, you know, the tensions within the community aren't gonna go away. And this is an important lesson that I always teach, when I talk about community development. If you think that what you do is gonna solve all of the conflicts within the neighborhood, first of all, that's an impossible goal. Conflicts are part of what make neighborhoods. And the real question is, when do conflicts become a threat to the stability and the future of the community?

That's when you have to engage in conflict. And I think that's what we did. It's harder that way but, even now there's nothing that says that the MHA is never gonna have any problems like this again. Or that the CLT is never gonna have any problem. There's nothing to prevent all of these things from occurring again. But that's why education is important. That's why telling the history is important. So people don't get the idea that this is Cowboys versus Indians. That this is the good guys and the bad guys –no– Conflicts are inherent in every community.

The real question is, how can they be dealt with creatively so that the community benefits in the long term? How do we avoid conflicts that are so bitter and that undermine the capacity for joint action? And I go back to Fran Goldin because she knew [how]. She never shied away from conflict. She would criticize people in their faces. She was a terrific organizer. She always said [shows emotion] “You know the best thing we ever do is serve food at our meetings because it brings people together and they can't yell at each other while they're eating” [laughs]. Well, maybe they could, but it's too disruptive.

Gabriela: Yeah, and how has your life changed, uh, since you became part of Cooper Square? It seems like a journey full of lessons. Some more difficult, but also some, I guess, very rewarding. So, have you learned anything that helped you to be a better person, neighbor, or community, organizer?

Tom: [Laughs] Yes. I think I learned everything that I knew in theory. But experiencing it in practice over such a long time is really compelling. This was not just a street fight.

This was a long process punctuated by conflict, but also punctuated by very positive experiences. So, yeah. I wish everybody could learn from this, from this experience. I wish all organizers could learn.

Gabriela: Well, Cooper Square MHA and CLT have been providing this housing [coops] and preserving the community in the Lower East Side. And in your view, looking at all these fights and struggles, and processes, what are the principles and values that have nurtured or sustained the Cooper Square community? Talking about the MHA and the CLT over all this time.

Tom: Yeah. I think the MHA as an organization is driven by the need to be able to stay and pay very little for housing. Because if most of the people there had to pay market rent, they wouldn't be able to stay. So that's the bottom line for so many residents. Uh, this is something that you're not likely to find anywhere else in New York City or in the neighborhood. The waiting list for public housing is years and years, and your chances are slim.

The waiting list for the so-called new affordable housing in the city's lottery is long, and the process is arduous. [But if you are in the MHA you have a right to stay and pay the lowest rent in the neighborhood]. But the other driving thing I've heard from several people is, “this is the community I grew up with. My kids grew up here.” I hear this from residents. “I wanna stay. Yeah, there are all these problems.” You know.

Gabriela: There is always a lot of work involved and commitment, like all shareholders being part of the MHA. So it's also not easy.

Tom: Yeah, yeah. And there are a lot of people who don't really participate in the MHA. Maybe they'll come out to an annual meeting but, they've got a good deal! They're able to stay because they're paying way below market rents. And the other really good thing, that's immaterial but it's actually very powerful, is the solidarity in the Puerto Rican Latino community. That is the material force that I think [I think people– and extended families, there are extended families. The same family, daughters and sons and grand grandchildren, and aunts and uncles. All living in Cooper Square.

Gabriela: That is beautiful

Tom: Yeah, it's wonderful. Uh, it's something–

Gabriela: The sense of community.

Tom: The sense of community, it breeds community. And it also breeds conflicts, but [laughs]. it's the basis for building community.** **You know, and again I keep thinking about Fran Goldin's organizing with food. It was always Puerto Rican, Dominican [and Chinese] food that was served at the meetings and as a reflection of the majority of the community.

Gabriela: The culture of the center.

Tom: yeah.

Gabriela: And, Tom, so how do you envision the future of Cooper Square CLT and MHA? What do you think will strengthen the Cooper Square community? Like, looking forward.

Tom: Um, over the last 10 years, the Land Trust Movement has blossomed in New York City. When my book New York For Sale came out, meetings were being held among a very small group of people from the housing community about land trusts. It was an item for discussion. And now there are dozens of organizations, non-profit housing developers, aspiring non-profit housing developers, who want to create low- and moderate-income housing with a land trust.

The New York Community Land Initiative started right about the time my book came out, 2008, —New York for Sale—and there was a small group of us who were meeting,** **talking about how the Land Trust movement could take off. Those were the early days of the New York Community Land Initiative, which I was part of and I think the Land Trust movement has taken off. It's at a critical juncture where there need to be changes in city policy.

And there also is a very weak understanding within the nonprofit development community about the significance of land. That is beginning to change as people talk about Lenapehoking land. That New York is built on land that was entrusted to native people and it was taken away from them. This is an important discussion but it's still among a small group of activists.

But it's promising, it’s promising that there is [greater] appreciation for not just low-income housing, affordable housing, but the appreciation for land being held in trust, and not being in private ownership. I think this can be a breakthrough. I hope it is —I think it looks like a breakthrough. And I'm happy to [again] be participating in the New York Community Land Initiative now.

Gabriela: Because I think that your experience at Cooper Square, um, an organization or a community that is years ahead has a lot to say, to share.

Tom: Yes.

Gabriela: What would be the role of Cooper Square in this important CLT movement?

Tom: Yes. I think it is an important role and that's also something that we have to think about because we don't have really resources to scale up, you know, to do more. The financial resources, but that shouldn't be enough to stop us.

Gabriela: You have knowledge resources.

Tom: Yes, exactly. That's why history is so important. Understanding the history, understanding that it's not just a matter of creating an organization on paper, but how does it grow? How does it sustain itself? How does it accomplish its goals of preserving land? Just the fact that you have the deed doesn't do it by itself.

Gabriela: Yeah. You can lose it.

Tom: Yeah. That's right. [laughs]

Gabriela: Um, anything else that you would like to share, Tom?

Tom: Well, I do think the future lies in bringing in new generations.** **Including new generations who are more questioning of the way, property is dealt with in the city. The way land is dealt with, the way we live, and particularly in the Lower East Side, which is all brick and mortar. I think younger people who realize also that community gardens, parks, open spaces need to be held in trust.

And being under the ownership of the city is a form of trust, but it's never guaranteed. So, as a footnote, I would add this is one of the things that I disagreed with some of our CLT board members supporting a proposal to build low-income housing on a community garden. The community garden was in private ownership, but the son of the owner who had taken control of the land wanted to make it into a community garden.

And he's done that, so I said, you know –land isn't just for housing. This is one of the most densely developed neighborhoods in the city, and there's a lack of [public] open space. “Oh! but the owner owns his own business, he's a businessman.” I said, “So? So what?” I just got a notice the other day that they're creating a conservation land trust. To be held in perpetuity. That's good enough. And that's another lesson that the Land Trust Movement is going to have to come to grips with, because the New York Community Land Initiative is mostly nonprofit housing developers.

And they see it all as housing. They don't necessarily see community [as being more than brick and mortar, more than just buildings, whether for housing or community facilities. It’s the land!!!] And that is a fundamental problem. When John Davis comes to speak with us, hopefully at the CLT, that'll be one of the first things he’ll say. He's one of the national, international experts [on CLTs]. [He reminds us to] keep the community in Community Land Trust. So communities aren't just brick and mortar, they are not just residential. Where do people get sustenance? Where can they recreate it? Do they have open spaces, other places to go, public places? Think that it’s keeping the community in the Community Land Trust. That is the big challenge.

Gabriela: Yeah. Thank you, Tom, for those last thoughts. I think that they're very, very important for what's happening now at the city and beyond. So thank you so much.

Tom: Okay, thanks for doing this.

Gabriela: Thanks for this conversation. I'm going to end it right now.