Harriet Cohen

Gabriela: Today is October 7th, and we are in the Cooper Square MHA office. I'm Gabriela Rendon and I'm here with Harriet Cohen. Thank you, Harriet, for spending this time with me for this conversation. I'm going to start with the first question. So, where were you born and where is your family from?

Harriet: Okay. We are from, my parents were born here. Their parents weren't, but they were both, my mother and my father, were born here. And my father's actually from the Lower East Side, and my mother's family, I think, was from the Bronx.

Harriet: So I was born in the Bronx, but we've lived in, then we moved to Brooklyn. Then we moved to Queens.

Gabriela: Oh. So, so tell me a little bit about your childhood. How was.. like..moving to the city?

Harriet: Well, my parents were teachers. My mother was an early childhood person, a nursery school teacher. My father taught elementary school. He was originally a librarian. And my father lost his job for being a radical. And then he couldn't get another job teaching because he had to sign a loyalty oath, and he couldn't do that. So he wound up getting a job out on Long Island, where they didn't have a loyalty oath. And then he eventually came back to the city and he got a job, I think eventually. No, he taught elementary school, and then he eventually was in the library school at Queens College.

Gabriela: Okay. So you moved to a lot of different places.

Harriet: Yes. We moved to a lot of different places. We lived in Canarsie, we lived in the Red Hook houses when they were first built. Yeah. And then right then we moved to Queens. To a veteran's cooperative, which is how we could afford it.

Gabriela: Okay.

Harriet: Yes, Bayside.

Gabriela: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, great. And tell me about your professional background and tell me about your work just moving forward.

Harriet: So let's see. I went to Queens College, and I majored in political science. And I had a teacher who taught state and local government, and I got very —she was a terrific teacher — and I got very interested in state and local government issues and stuff. And she's the person who turned me on to urban planning, city planning. I had never really known about it, so I read up about it, and then I decided to go to graduate school, which I did do. And I went to Yale and it was a two-year program it was quite an experience and the people there who taught, you know, they weren't very hip, they weren't [laughs]. They were like, I don't know, very mainstream old school. I don't know what you want to call them. Some of them were famous, some of them weren't. The guy who taught the housing course had worked for the C.I.A.

Anyway, so it was quite an adjustment. And I could tell the things that they were —they didn't —I remember we had this, our first project, they gave us some kind of land use and I got a housing for the elderly, and we had to find a place in New Haven, based on various and sundry things. Yeah. So I was very curious because… how could you? I couldn't find any vacant lots that were appropriate. You know, we needed transportation and stores and blah, blah. So,  I wasn't really sure what to do. So, I went to see a guy who was the  —he was the chair of the department. I think he was maybe also the studio teacher.

And, I remember very vividly of a very vivid, vivid memory of sitting across from him. And so I explained to him, I didn't know really what to do because, and he said “Well, you could, you could locate it anywhere, as you know, like that's near things.” He said, for example. And he stood up and he turned around and he pointed and there was a, uh, a beautiful house next door. It was a whole row of houses. He said, “You could put it right there.” And I remember thinking, “How could I put it?'' I said to him “How could I put it right there? There's something there.” And he said, “Well, so there's something there. I don't know.” He was like “Right.” So, you know, I thought really? So that was kind of generally, you know, what it was, what it was like. It was not a real sense of, you know, that you were disrupting people or displacing people or anything. I guess it was before people started thinking about that.

Gabriela: Yeah. And, how and when did you become interested or involved in community and housing organizing, like here in the city? So, so you finished your studies, and then, what happened? Was there a particular moment or event that transformed you or when you said like, okay, I want to do this.

Harriet: Actually, my first interest was transportation, and I was involved in some transportation issues in New Haven, and also I moved to Philadelphia for two years.

Gabriela: Okay.

Harriet: And I was about there. Both places had to do with organizing to stop a highway that was going through the neighborhood. And then I moved many, several years later, I moved back to New York, and it was once I was in New York, I got very interested in housing.

Gabriela: And, did you start working somewhere, uh, right to housing or how did you start?

Harriet: Yeah, I, let's see. I, I, I think my first, I worked for a consulting firm and we did different kinds of things. It was an international firm, and I worked in Trinidad and, and then, uh, and then I got a job with the housing organization, but they weren't very progressive, although they did build non-profit housing, a lot of big housing. And, then after that, I decided I just didn't like the politics [laughs]. And, so I went to work for a community group on the Lower East Side. But also I knew about the Lower East Side because when I was in graduate school, I did my senior thesis on the alternate plan for Cooper Square.

Gabriela: Okay.

Harriet: So I had come, you know, of course down here, and I had interviewed Walter Thabit, who was the main person, and Fran Goldin and a couple of other people. So I was aware, but the organization I worked for was not, was more east of there. And back in the day, the organizations that there were, that weren't very many, didn't really talk to each other.

Gabriela: Yeah.

Harriet: So, and we did a lot of homesteading and other housing programs, community management, and also it was the era of abandonment. So there was taking over buildings and organizing buildings.

Gabriela: What was the name of the organization?

Harriet: It was called Adopt-a-Building. It doesn't exist anymore, but it did. And then, you know, and then I went, I moved on and, let's see, where did I go next? Oh, I did some consulting work in between, and then I started an organization. Some other people had the, uh, asked me, if I would, you know, to create this organization. It was called a Neighborhood Anti-Arson Center. And it organized people who were living in buildings where they were, there was, had been arson. And it was based on the idea that if you can figure out whether it's gonna happen, you can prevent it from happening. And it's based on, you know, the owners and paying his taxes. And, you know, there's four or five different, you know, indices.

Gabriela: So that sounds super interesting, So you, you started this organization?
 
Harriet: Yeah, so we started, there were people in other cities who were doing things like this, so we sort of adopted it and, you know, it was just a small nonprofit. And we had a couple of people on the staff and we would go and work with other organizations in different places in New York.

Gabriela: Were you based in a neighborhood or was it like…

Harriet: No, it was like a citywide kind of thing. But, you know, we recruit people or they'd come to us, you know, or it was places where there was a lot of abandonment, of which there was a tremendous amount at the time. Yeah. So we did a lot of really good organizing and we, you know, made linkages with the fire department and the fire marshals, and, you know, they loved us because [laugh].

Gabriela: Wow. There was a lot of work at that time now. A lot of work, a lot of things happening.

Harriet: Yeah. So there was just a lot, a lot of that. And then after that, I went to work at the Community Service Society, which is a big nonprofit, and they had housing. They recruited me to run the housing department, which I did for a few years. And while I was there, I was appointed to be a tenant representative on the New York City Rent Guidelines board, which I did for two years.

Harriet: And, that was quite an experience.[laughs]

Gabriela: Yes.

Harriet: [laugh] That was just a, you know, it's not a paid job, you know, you do your regular job and then you do that too. And then, um, and then I went to work for the Manhattan Borough president, who was Ruth Messenger at the time.

And then, um, I was her housing and homelessness policy person and homeless was just beginning to become a bigger thing. And I have been very involved in that issue also. And then I was asked if I'd like to apply to be a special master in the big class action lawsuit on homeless families and access to shelter in the city of New York. It's been going on for years. And I got hired to do that. I did that for four years. That was an amazing thing.

Gabriela: Wow.

Harriet: And every day I would go to the Emergency Assistance Unit, which is up in the Bronx, and talk to the homeless families and help them if, if there were some ways, like advocate for them, talk to the staff.

And I did a lot of mediating between the city and the Legal Aid Society that represented the families. And then I just got burnt out.

Gabriela: Yeah, I can imagine.

Harriet: So I move, and then I went to work for… I decided I wanted to do direct service. So, I went to work for Pathways to Housing, which pioneered the housing first model of taking people right off the street and putting them in housing, because back then there was like, what they called Continuum [of Care]. And if you lived on the street, you had to go into some kind of program and get cleaned up and then do something else. And it was almost like proving yourself. But, you know, for people who are struggling with mental illness or substance use it’s just not possible to live with all those kinds of regulations.

So this was, they would take people off the street and put them more people from the shelter system and put them right in housing.
 
Gabriela: Okay. A different program, supporting them.

Harriet: Supporting them. Yes. So I worked for them for a couple of years and I did different things. I did a lot of program development and fundraising, and I was the director of operations and organizing.

Gabriela: Wow, Harriet, you have done amazing things, all connected with housing and community organizing.

Harriet: And then I worked for a number of years for a group that was actually building housing and providing the services. So I was the program person, and it they started off, I think when I first got there, had three buildings. And by the end when I left, they had 10. I'm sure they have many more.

And most of the…and a lot of the buildings were just regular folks. And also there would be a certain number of apartments that were reserved for people coming out of the shelter system, or people living with HIV and AIDS or what, various sundry. And somewhere in there, with them, I also created the first supportive housing for kids aging out of foster care. Nobody had ever done that before.

Gabriela: Oh, that was nice. And what was this organization?

Harriet: It was, it was this, uh, organization called the Lantern Group. Okay. And they just did a lot of buildings. And then there was this building in East Harlem, and they had families, people, and then they had people living with HIV, and then they decided to do the, for, you know, foster care.

So, I spent about a year doing research and all this kind of stuff and working, you know, working with some people up in the Bronx who were doing stuff with kids who aged out of foster care, so I could really learn about it. And then we just said, Okay, we're doing it.

Gabriela: Yeah. So like, all this work requires some… also kind of like an emotional...

Harriet: Oh, yes. And.

Gabriela: It's really emotional. No? So tell me about that. So how did you prepare yourself for that?

Harriet: Yeah, it was, well, I kind of like that component. And I think also from working as a special master that I, you know, all these people who are reporting homeless, and then they tell you their whole story and you know, then you want to kind of see if you can do something about that. So then I, I, I try to get myself into situations where, or organizations where, you know, that were focusing on that population.

So, that's what I did, you know, we would rent, when I, that one organization, they built buildings. So a lot of their buildings were new, which is really nice. But some of them were, they would have a couple of old SROs that they would renovate, take over. And, then the other, the last organization that I worked for was people living with HIV and AIDS, but they also had, you know, criminal justice histories or, or we had a particular program for that. And, we would rent apartments on the open market, put them in, and the staff would, you know, follow them and meet with them. And they'd come to the office, have groups.

Because there's a lot to be said about these organizations that do that. And then, you know, here are these people, you walk by them on the street, and here that here they are. And you're relating to them and you're talking to them and you're finding out about them, and there can change in those kinds of ways. And you find these amazing things about people.

Gabriela: Yeah. And it seems that I mean, I don't know how the situation was, but it seems that you were looking at, kind of, like alternative models with housing services and support over there or were there already some programs coming from the city?

Harriet: Yeah. I sort of helped, or I was on the ground floor of the supported, what we now know, as supported housing a lot of these things are all institutionalized now.

Gabriela: Yeah. So it was the beginning of all that.

Harriet: It was, it was really the beginning. Exactly, people thought you were crazy. What do you mean? Taking somebody off the street and given an apartment and now it's an accepted thing. Not everybody does that, but.

Gabriela: Yeah. That is really impressive. And so, so that was the last, uh, the last organization that you worked with?

Harriet: Right. The last organization that I worked with was, we didn't build any housing or anything. It was, uh, primarily it was called the AIDS Center of Queens County. And it was ACQC was, they provided all different kinds of services and housing was just one aspect of it.

Gabriela: Yeah. And, uh, well, you mentioned that you were in the school and you did your thesis on Cooper Square, and you worked later connected to the lower side. 
[20:00] But then after like all these experiences and all these amazing work, how did you reconnect it to the Lower East Side? How was kind of that return?

Harriet: Well when I was working down here for Adopt-A-Building, I moved in, I, I moved here. I got an apartment in a building that a friend of mine had renovated with her two hands, [laughs]. And so I was living here And, uh, and then I also, you know, I wasn't working here anymore after a number of years. But, you know, there was a tremendous spirit and communality and, you know, you miss that when you don't have it once you have it.

Gabriela: Yeah.

Harriet: And then, you know, there were the people from Cooper Square and I got to know them a little bit.

Gabriela: Yeah, Tell me how and, how you found, uh, like all these relationships.

Harriet: And Yeah. So I think what happened, and you were involved now with Cooper Square, We had, there was an organization called the Lower East Side Joint Planning Council and it was a much bigger organization. All the other organizations have little catchment areas. You know, Adopt-A-Building was east of Avenue A, and Cooper Square is Second Avenue. And there's a group called GOLES [Good Old Lower East Side] that's somewhere in all of that.

So, I think that people, we started, some of us anyway, who had been here and there was an urban renewal area and nothing was happening. And there was all this vacant land. And we started meeting and talking about that. Like, why don't we try to do something? Because of the city, every time anybody tried to do anything, it would get vetoed. Cause there was an Assemblyman named Sheldon Silver who died last year in jail. And he would always veto anything that had to do with low-income housing. Those people. Yeah. So we decided to, it was acres and acres of vacant land that was being used as parking lots.

And we wrote a letter,  I wrote the letter —it's still in my computer— to Bloomberg because he announced he was gonna build all this housing.  And we said, okay, come on down.

Gabriela: Mm-hmm.

Harriet: You can build, you know, a lot of them right here. So it started the wheels turning. And there was a small plan, the community board, there was a meeting at the community board. People went crazy. So that snuffed it out. And then about a year later, we started again. And then somebody had the very brilliant idea of doing a, you know, a…getting all the stakeholders together. All the people who never talk to each other because they have different ideas, agendas, et cetera. And we did that for about a year or two.

Gabriela: So, what was the name of this group?

Harriet: So it was no longer just our group. So we had our, our own group called SPARC the Seward Park Area Redevelopment Coalition. Okay. And Cooper Square [Committee] participated in it, and a lot of organizations participated in it. And, so when they did the stakeholder campaign, I was….I was one of the people that got chosen to be part of it, as did other people who were affiliated.

Gabriela: Mm-hmm. So you were part of…

Harriet: So we were part of this stakeholder campaign. That came up with the plan that is now on Delancey and below Delancey [now called Essex Crossing]. And we were able to get —it's 50% affordable [housing] and 50% market rate [housing].

But we were able to get the affordable [housing] in perpetuity, which nobody else had ever, ever gotten. So that in itself was a tremendous victory. And then our other big victory was getting them to include and acknowledge the people who had been displaced, 50 years ago from the urban renewal area, and invite them to apply.

Gabriela: Oh, that's amazing.

Harriet: Yeah. Because they still had to meet the qualifications, but they got priority. So we were able to get…

Gabriela: They had been displaced a long time ago?

Harriet: Yeah, exactly. So a lot of them were scattered or lived elsewhere, but we got about 30, between 30 and 35 people.

Gabriela: Oh, that's amazing.

Harriet: Yeah. It was really incredible, and I still, now, when I walk down the street, people come over and say, “Thank you for my apartment.” [laughs] So that's really nice.

Gabriela: That’s a huge accomplishment for the community.

Harriet: Yeah. Right. So that's how we all got closer and everything around that time, because it was a real struggle and we spent a lot of time together and strategizing and, you know,  we didn't get everything we wanted, but we always used to say 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing. [laughs]

Gabriela: So, then you built this relationship, and then tell us, how you became part of Cooper Square and in what capacity?

Harriet: So, I was asked at the beginning of 2017. I was asked if I wanted to join the board.

Gabriela: Of the Cooper Square CLT [Community Land Trust]?

Harriet: Yes, of the CLT. I was asked by Charlie Wertheimer, who I knew for a long time.

Gabriela: And considering the rich history of Cooper Square, with all these relationships, what were your first feelings or impressions when you became part of Cooper Square?

Harriet: Well, first I felt it was really exciting and, you know,  it was something new. And I always like being part of something, especially if it's embedded in the community. And, I knew several people who were already on the board, and I think Frances [Goldin] was still on the board, but she was getting on. And then,  then there were other people who I didn't know. And then there were all these other people in the MHA [Mutual Housing Association] and we had to relate to them. So, it was like, “Oh my God.” It was very exciting.

And meeting all these new people and I was just very open. I didn't come with any. Nobody sat me down and told me.

Gabriela: So, how did you feel connected to the struggles of the organization? You had all this experience, you know, how did you connect with other organizing networks? I don't know if you could share a community or personal organizing moment or anecdote that made you feel proud of being part of Cooper Square or a moment where you felt really connected, considering your background.

Harriet: Right. I guess I'll say a few things about that. One is that the CLT was a little removed in a certain kind of way. And, I think that's not so true anymore. But I think it was a little bit, and then of course, if you are on, some of us were on the MHA [board], and then there are people who are like, well, “who are you?” And kind of putting us down or derogatory things or they didn't really understand or, the famous refrain is always, you have no skin in the game. So, you know, “We live here, we're the ones, blah, blah.” So, that was difficult. That was really difficult.

I'm trying to think of a positive. I think the positive moments came later when, for example, when the CLT nominated Ivette [de la Cruz] two years ago to be the president [of the MHA] and we won that. Collectively, we won that. It was very exciting.

Gabriela: So, you mentioned that it was a bit separated at the beginning, Cooper Square, but now it is more connected to the MHA.

Harriet: Yes. I think we are more connected. I think some of it is just…I think we're more involved in a certain kind of way than we were before. I think that was a criticism of the MHA that it wasn't so activist. So, I think now we're trying to be more activist and figure out ways that we can be.

Gabriela: And could you describe your current role at Cooper Square, Harriet?

Harriet: I was recently elected to be the president [of the CLT]. I've been signing a lot of papers and documents. [laughs]

Gabriela: What was your previous role?

Harriet: I was the secretary. I still signed some documents, but not as many. [laughs]

Gabriela: For how long then have you been? You mentioned 2017.

Harriet: Yes. So I can't remember. I've been the secretary for a few years, but I can't remember exactly. Obviously, I wasn't right away. But it's changed. There were people who left. There were people who came on. There was one guy who left because he moved to California.

People took jobs. It was a conflict of interest, so they couldn't stay on the Cooper Square CLT board. So there have been some changes. Now we have some new people, new energy.

Gabriela: Well, you have been there for a while and in your view, what are the most important accomplishments of Cooper Square CLT and MHA during this time?  I know that you have been involved also with an acquisition, and kind of assisting other buildings.

Harriet: Two years ago we were asked by the city to take over these two buildings and I think they did that because they're in the neighborhood.

Gabriela: What was the issue with them?

Harriet: The issue was that they hadn't paid any taxes. Why? I'm not sure. Because they were owned by a non-profit that had gotten them from the city many years before in some kind of program. So, the city was going to have to auction them off. So somebody at HPD [New York City Department of Housing Preservation and Development] came to us and asked us if we would take them over, and we said yes. I wasn't involved in that whole transition at that point, but now we have the two buildings.

They're not located right next to each other, but they're one HDFC [Housing Development Fund Corporation] they're an HDFC. And there are 18 apartments in each building. And we were told that when we took them over that we were gonna have to renovate them.

Gabriela: So, the CLT got the land?

Harriet: This is what happened. It was just a crazy thing. They had to do it so quickly to avoid —it must have been some clock— that they couldn't, there wasn't time to separate out the land and the building. So they just did the land and the building into the HDFC. And now we're in the process of transferring the land to the CLT.

Gabriela: Well that's great. Especially for the tenants.

Harriet: Yes. And now we're, we have been working on the renovation. We have plans with an architect, we have a developer, and we're just waiting for HPD, they're just stalled because there aren't enough staff people. And they told us three months ago that we would get one in the fall, a project manager. And guess what? Now they just told us, “Oh, the beginning of 2023.” Fortunately, the buildings are not that bad, so it's not like people are living in terrible conditions or anything. So we are continuing with the architect and the energy people [consultant], doing their research and their little things and developing plans. So that's kind of good.

And we recently applied to see if we could get a social work student from the Hunter School of Social Work. So we have signed all the papers and we're just waiting to see if somebody would love to come and work with us. [laughs]

Gabriela: How has your life changed as a person, community member, or community organizer since you became part of Cooper Square? Have you learned anything that helps you to be a better neighbor —because you are part of this community—or a better community organizer?  You have all this experience, but now, in these last years…

Harriet: I guess the reason that I'm kind of spearheading the two buildings, the TBTU buildings [Two Buildings Together United], is because I kind of know that stuff. Or some of it anyway, from all the work that I did before and collaborating when they were buildings being built or different kinds of things. So I feel like I could bring some of the skills in that sense. Has it made me a better person? [laughs]

Gabriela: Do you feel more connected with the Lower East Side? Because you have been here for a while. And working on different projects because of that experience with the SPARC and then being connected with Cooper Square.

Harriet: Yes. Definitely. I feel, you know, very connected to the community through this, through the CLT, and also through the work at the urban renewal area.

I just feel very proud even though —what happens in New York with any kind of development— even though there's stuff for affordable units and everything, and we got to name [the senior] building after Frances Goldin and there's the senior citizen building and this, that and the other thing. There's a lot of market-rate housing and once you build market-rate housing, then all of a sudden there's more market-rate housing. So, there's a little bit to the downside, but I do feel really proud when I go over to the Essex Market and I talk to different people there who have stalls. It's a great thing for the community. So you can feel good about that and proud. And like I said, people come up to me on the street and thank me for their apartment.

Gabriela: You have been close to Cooper Square, first as a student, then as a neighbor, and then more involved. So in your view, what are some of the principles and values that have nurtured and sustained Cooper Square over all these 30 years? 
[39:00] Because, it’s difficult in the city, looking at what is happening in the surrounding area, this market-rate housing that you are telling us, so what is it that is sustaining this community?

Harriet: I think it's this spirit in which it was formed. There was a big fight. Robert Moses wanted to bulldoze it all and probably build some other kind of high-rise or mid-rise housing and the community organized against it and fought it and won.

Okay so then what are they gonna do? Because all these buildings were old, so then they won the right to have them renovated and there was a lot of involvement by the people who actually lived in the buildings. So I think it's all that sort of spirit that they try to keep alive and that pushes it on. And that some of the people who are running the programs or the MHA have that, they were around then, or if they weren't around then, that's how come they came here because they support that and want to see that grow and flourish. And, I think that's one of the things that they're trying to recapture and re-energize and get people more involved.

Because the MHA is like, what, 30 years old? 35 years. Most of the people still live here, although of course there's new people, but after a while a lot of people get complacent. They start treating the MHA like a landlord.

Gabriela: So I guess the new generations should learn about those efforts and the past.

Harriet: Yes, I think that's really important, that's why they have this jewel and this gem and why they're able to pay the lowest rents of anybody in the city. It's really amazing.

Gabriela: So, considering all this time and changes through time. How do you envision the future of Cooper Square CLT and MHA? What do you think will strengthen this community, the Coopers Square community?

Harriet: Well, the MHA is 21 buildings, I think the original MHA I believe is 21 buildings. And I think one of the things that will strengthen it is by having more people involved. And I think there could be a lot of education and new things and I think they're trying to do some of those things. They just got a huge grant, through the Enterprise Foundation, to work with the seniors. Because there are so many seniors here and they want to do other things, things for kids, things maybe that could be things for teenagers. So I think that there's a lot of real possibilities, but it needs engagement from more people.

Gabriela: Connecting the different generations.

Harriet: Yes. Connecting the different generations. Although sometimes people want to get away from that or the people in the middle, the teenage people. [laughs]

Gabriela: Anything else that you would like to add, Harriet?

Harriet: I know what I wanted to say. I think that it would be good if people could understand more about how much it costs to run a building. Because I've been in meetings, you know, every year the MHA board votes on a rent increase and they're not allowed to go below 2%. That's part of the agreement that they had with the city.

But sometimes when you look at–and they always get a presentation on the expenses and the income–that enough people don't know that and of course you're focused on not wanting your rent to go higher. But in terms of this project, of the MHA, it's not only about keeping the rents low, it's about keeping the apartments up. Especially because they're very, very old apartments. So I think that might be something that needs to happen.

Gabriela: So part of the education process that you were mentioning?

Harriet: Yes. So that people aren't just saying, “Well why don't we have this?” and “Why can't we have that?”.

Gabriela: Well, I think that concern, what you're saying, I think that there is a lot of potential with the new generation, to engage generations in this type of conversation. And because I guess they will be part of the leadership of the MHA.

Harriet: Right. And also I remember a couple of years ago we had a training session for the board. It was UHAB [Urban Homesteading Assistance Board] and they did a whole thing on income and expenses and costs of running a building. And they showed at the end, he had up citywide rents, Manhattan rents, and our rents. And of course, the MHA rents were so incredibly low compared.

So they're really getting an incredible gift. And maybe they therefore could afford to look at other things, the reserve funds and spending the reserves and not a lot, but, yeah. Because you have to keep up. I think that's a mistake a lot of people make, a lot of the HDFCs out there.

Gabriela: I guess you have seen these types of processes and the struggles to run and retain a building. Yes. All the usual work.

Harriet: Yes, and of course now things are more expensive. You could postpone things, but you can't keep postponing and postponing and postponing, some of the things that are basic to a building.

Gabriela: So, what would you tell the new generations of shareholders?

Harriet: I would tell them they are really lucky [laughs] and that they should give back. I think it's really important for people to understand how much sweat goes into all of this. There's staff people of course, but then there are people who are not. The people on the board are not being paid to be on the board and the ones that represent the shareholders, so that has to be spread around more.

Gabriela: Yes. Thank you so much. I think that this was a very valuable conversation and I don't know if you would like to add anything else before we close it.

Harriet: I just think what's happened here —and it continues to happen—is a wonderful and amazing thing.

I was around also with the originals when the city people got the city to adopt certain kinds of programs like homesteading and community management and HDFCs, those were all struggles. It didn't just happen, and now they're all institutionalized in a certain kind of way. And I think all of that is incredible and we’re the inheritors of that. So I think people need to know the history and understand that, understand the history of Cooper Square, but also how the history is beyond Cooper Square. I think that's really important.

Gabriela: To push for some of those laws that their parents and sometimes grandparents fought for. Right?

Harriet: Yes. Exactly.

Gabriela: Okay, well thank you so much, Harriet.

Harriet: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome.

Gabriela: Okay. Thanks.